Whats a 69 COPO Camaro.....with Super low miles...worth?

[TC]

I was talking with a friend of mine,that has a 69 COPO Camaro,and he said he's thinking about selling it....and I wondered what it was worth?

He's the original owner,and has all the documentation that he got with it,when he bought it new.It was raced for about a year(I think...he said),and thats all the use this cars ever had,he said the odometer reads less than a hundred miles.

Now for the bad part....at some point,the original L72,either exploded,or was sold...and upgraded with a more competitive engine....and as of now it has a run of the mill 69/427,out of a passenger car....it's also missing the factory wheels too.it still has most all the other factory # matching stuff in it,like the M22 Rock crusher,12 bolt with 488 gears(not factory,I would guess?)...I think he said he still has the smog pump stuff for it too.
Also,I think he said,it has the factory paint,but has some crazy 1970's stripe job on it(been a loooong time,since I seen the car)...or possibly the whole car was repainted while it was raced.

It's been in storage the whole time,and he said it's been a long time since it was started....so basically,it would need restored,and put back to original,too be a top dollar car,but with less than a hundred mile's and every thing else like new....would it be worth some serious cash?

Also any one know of any other 69 COPO Camaro's...with lower mileage?

[TC]

Huh....I really thought it would take a lot more than this,too stump everybody around here....guess not http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/frown.gif

[sixtiesmuscle]

O.K., $45,000

[Jeff H]

I guess it depends on whether it has the original BE rear end still. The low mileage is nice, but once the car starts to be restored, it will be a restored car, not a survivor. I think the 45K number is a real good guess since the car has documentation. Any old racing history he has to go with the car will add value as well. I'll trade you my supercharged 93 Z28 Indy 500 Pace Car for it!

[TC]

Well...I guess that answers that question.
45,000,is a long way off from the price tag.
Even if you guy's were off quite a bit,I don't imagine that there would be that big a gap in price range...so,it definitely doesn't sound like a wise investment....but didn't know,so thats why I asked.

I'm sure it still has the original BE rear end,the 4.88's(I didn't ask)...but,I don't think came in any factory cars.the impression I got was that the engine/wheels,where the only major original pieces that were missing...and I could only assume,that the original engine accessories were put back on the motor thats in it now.So...looks like there's no need to investigate it any further.

Oh...I appreciate the reply too ;)



[Edited by TC (01-04-2002 at 07:09 PM).]

[JoeC]

Do you know what the orignal color is and what the X code is from the trim tag?

[tom406]

Complete agreement has been in short supply on the forum lately, but I'm going to chime in with complete agreement with Supercars' reaction and reasoning. Low mileage as a selling point has to be qualified with condition and completeness and/or lack of modification. Obviously an untouched, unmodified, superbly maintained and stored 40,000 mile car has more "value" than the car you're describing, lowest mileage be damned.

You came to the right forum for an opinion, but as you started listing the missing or changed items, I think the people on the board feared the worst and were hesitant to offer an opinion without more info. I once gave a guy some advice he solicited about the value of a '62 Impala hardtop he was looking at. He listened to my thoughts on values and bought the car. He proudly drove up a week or two later in his very nice 4 DOOR hardtop. Funny those extra doors never came up during our discussion.....

[TC]

I kind of thought(or..hoped)maybe the miles might take up some of the slack for the less desirable points about the car.But,I guess if ya look at the bottom line,a cars only a virgin once...and any restoration,no matter how perfect or correct.....can change the fact,it not Daddys little girl any more.

I'd have given more information,but I haven't seen the car in over 20 years...and back then,I wouldn't have known what I was looking at any way.So,I didn't want to say any thing I don't know to be true....and only have the information he's given me.


The cars Olympic Gold,black interior...no option's.He never mentioned the trim tag,so not sure what the X code is.He did say he had talked to an expert about the car,and was told not to let it go cheap....So,I believe it's every thing,I was told it is.

[Charley Lillard]

Did he buy it at Berger ?

[SuperCars]

The things that caught my attention, is it doesn't have original motor, wheels, wrong gears, maybe needs the BE housing, etc, etc, and basically needs a full restoration. My ears started hearing the Cha-ching, Cha-ching of a cash register adding up all the costs to the tune of approximately $40,000 to make this a complete COPO again with a correct but non-original motor. Then after you put out the approximately $40,000 to restore it and to make it complete again, you could sell it for $65-70,000.

[Edited by SuperCars (01-05-2002 at 09:52 AM).]

[TC]

I don't think he bought it from Berger,he mentioned the guys name he went through to get it,but the name really didn't ring a bell....and the assumption I got,was it was ordered for some one else,but was sold to him instead.

I guess I got kind of excited,and wanted to get as much information as possible....but failed to listen,or question any thing I didn't understand and should have asked more about some things......a car like this,will do that to a guy...hehehe

One of the guys mentioned...was Wally Booth,not sure what he had to do with it...though.


[Edited by TC (01-05-2002 at 02:27 PM).]

[Jeff H]

I wouldn't give up completely. See if you can get more information like if the BE rear is still there. Then maybe you can convince him it's not worth as much as he thinks and possibly get the price to a reasonable range.

[Tenney]

The fact that the car is still with its original owner who is also a friend would maintain my interest, too. Some excellent notes have been provided re: value and making car correct. May be time to negotiate a reasonable price?

[TC]

I'll see if I can get a hold of him,and confirm some of things I'm not sure about.

He made it pretty clear,that was the price tag,and he didn't care to sell it for any less...obviously,if he's had it this long...it's not a big concern if he sells it right a way...so,looks like it would have to be something,some one just has to have(regardless of the price),to get what he wants for it.

I was really more interested,if I could make a couple bucks on it any how.Don't get me wrong,I would love to have it in my own personal collection,but I would rather have several cars of lesser value,that I could drive,and run the snot out of...with out a big fear,of what might happen to them.

The BE rear end...I presume thats COPO only equipment?
I have a factory camaro 12 bolt,that I'm not sure what it originally came in...where would I look to see if it's a BE?

[SuperCars]

What is his price tag? The problem with some car owners asking price, is that they hear what a frame-off restored or complete un-touched, original survivor sells for and they believe that's what their car is worth? They gloss over some of their car's problems like this car has. Race modified, motor exploded, crazy stripe paint, plus who knows what else is missing, or if wheel openings are modified or tubbed; and it doesn't stop there. Just to restore a complete original running, intact car that has never been molested or touched, and only needs restoration because it's condition has deteriorated; still runs in the tens of thousands of dollars.

But like you say, in this case the owner probably just doesn't want to sell, and therefore has a high price tag. Best of luck to you though, if you pursue it further.

[TC]

The price Tag is(hope your sitting down...hehehe)pretty close to a 100k.
I'm sure the wheel wells aren't modified...but,it could be tubbed,cause it ran Super Stock....and NHRA might have allowed it for that class...back then?

I really need to just go look at the car...to see what it really is...and what it would really take to make it right.

Also,I agree 100% with ya SuperCars,about what ya said about thinking it's worth what a #1 untouched car is worth.Like I said earlier,he checked it out with"A Camaro Expert",but maybe the guy wasn't an expert,or took the car to be something it's not.......or maybe I'm not aware of something,that would completely change the senario,of what the car really is.



[Edited by TC (01-06-2002 at 03:54 PM).]

[Jeff H]

Good thing I was sitting down and my beer was empty! Kevin nailed it when he said people hear what a specific vehicle in mint restored or perfect unrestored condition sells for and think their car is worth the same. I could see your friend thinking the low mileage would add value, but it really doesn't add much due to the original block being gone. If you go look at the car, check the VIN. The only COPO that needs work that might be worth that money would be a ZL1 and all those VIN's are known so it can be verified.

[TC]

Okay,I went over and looked at the car...and think I have my facts strait now.
Not sure if any one really cares,but thought I'd post it any way.

The Car was ordered for Dick Aron,but took so long to be delivered,he just took a L78 off the lot.My friend called Jr,at Berger and made arraignments too buy the cheapest L72 Camaro they had,....and this was the car they showed him.He said,it had Dick Arons Race car written on it when he arrived at Berger.He was also offered a ZL-1,and wishes he would have taken it now...but it was over twice as much as this car...so it's understandable why he chose this one.

The stripes were applied over the original paint,and the rear end is the original...with the exception of the gear set,and possibly has HD axle shafts installed(he couldn't remember).He pulled the original motor,and installed an L72,built by Wally Booth,that was later pulled...and go's with the car.The heads are 840's(@#$%! I forgot to look at what they were dated).The block was Decked,so nothing to see on the pad,and it was 4 bolt main...but I couldn't read the date code.He also has a factory intake(not the cars original)and the cars original Carb.There's also two or three of the original 14x7 steel rims,and the dog dish caps that go with it.the original exhaust,exhaust manifolds,distributor and other engine accessories are present too.

I'm not a professional at restoration's,but I'm experienced and pretty fair at body work and anything else involved in restoring a car...And in my honest opinion,the car does not need any where near a full restoration.I found one small blister of surface rust around the rear window,where it was probably chipped when the molding was installed.Other than that,I think it would only need painted,because of the stripes.The underside looked real nice,the sub frame/front suspension,rear end and springs would need some paint work,and the interior looked like brand new,other than it needs a good cleaning,a new cluster besel where the tach's mounted...and a factory shifter.
The motor would most likely only need checked over,bores honed,a rebuild kit and factory camshaft.He said it doesn't have many runs on it,and wasn't hurt when it was pulled.

The car has more miles than I though,less than 500 he thinks,but not what the speedo says.One other thing,is the rear wheel wells were altered just a small amount,I could not see it,but he said they were so the slicks would fit,and the the upper wheel lip is folded in,for clearance too....that really sucks,but I think it could be fixed fairly easily.

Though it still sounds like a fair amount of work,I wouldn't be scared to tackle it...but it still wouldn't be 100%,and wouldn't be worth the price tag......if I had more money than I knew what too do with....I would buy it any way,just cause I like the car...but thats not the case....and probably why,I don't have more money than I know what too do with.

Here's some pic's of the car
http://bigblockshop.topcities.com/copo1.html

[Charley Lillard]

What a Cool car.....I wouldn't paint it. I would just clean it up and have fun with it.Bring it to the Reunion and School a few People at the Drags maybe. And it is a Berger....And it has paperwork...Cool car..Thanks for posting the pics.

[TC]

Yeah,I thought that too Charley.....I usually don't care for paint jobs like that,but the paint looks like new,and it kinda take's a guy back to the Good Ol'Days of SuperStock.

He said he had problems with the clutch,and had to granny shift the car....and still ran 11.50,he never did get the car tuned in,be for he went back to racing his old car...so I bet it wouldn't take much, too School quite a few People at the Drags http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

[bkhpah]

Hit her with a hose and give it a scrub. the car would be great as is for the SC reunion. Why mess with it. It is what it is, COOL..BKH

[68l30]

Wow,Nice car!Love the Gold color and the period stripes.When was the car run last?


Steve

[TC]

I think early 1971,was the last time it was raced.
And he said it was driven on the road,once when he brought it home,and two times...in the mid 80's.....the cars had a pretty easy life...hehe

[JoeC]

I think the technical term for that paint job is "groovy" or "boss"

[SuperNovaSS]

That car is sweet. Are you an owner? I wouldnt paint it, it looks good as is.



Jason

[Chris396]

What a blast from the past!

[Bob Jenkins]

Wow, cool car.....thanks for posting the pics.

[AutoInsane]

OK after seeing the pics, back to the original question............

What is this car worth?

(I think it is a very 'groovy' car too and would only detail it)

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Cool, leave the paint alone and just give it a good cleaning, looks like the 'wild '70's'!
M

[Jeff H]

I agree with everyone else and would just clean it up and drive it. A car can be restored at any point, but once it has been restored, it will never be a survivor. That car is groovy and it has a great history. I would still think the value would be somewhere in the $40-$50K range. Thanks for the pictures and start talking to your friend to see if you can get him down on the price.

[Chevy454]

I've got to DEFINITELY agree with the majority here...bring that thing to the Reunion! Heck, don't even worry about cleaning it up...I will volunteer, and I can just about bet their would be some other by-standers who would jump at the chance. The only thing I might do is put the L-72 together and drop it in, but that's just me!

Now, just some observations. Is it me, or is that a 390/427 resting in the engine bay? I noticed the orange intake, but was stumped as to what it was, because of the temp sending unit location. But then, I noticed something: the heater hoses are blocked off! Then, the location of the fuel filter was the final clue. Also, it looks like the air cleaner snorkel has been hacked off, which like the blocked of heater hoses, is nothing new to racers. It just adds to the cool factor that this car reeks of!

Another question: where exactly are you located in Michigan? I will hopefully be up that direction in early September for the Pure Stock Drags.

[L72]

WOW!! Supercool history car,too bad the price is so stiff,I think for the first time ever, I'll go and buy some lottery tickets,someone's got to rescue this beauty!! GOOD LUCK and keep on it...

[COPO PETE]

Holy time warp Batamn!!!!!!!!!!!Ditto on all responses!!!
Peter

[TC]

The motor thats in it now,was pulled out of a 69 Impala wagon(and painted/different cam,before he installed it),and is suppose to be a 427/335 hp....I believe it was suppose to be original and a one owner car...so it should be the 335 hp,but I didn't look at the numbers...to be positively sure,as I seen it was an oval port,and didn't think it could be any thing to great.

And the snorkel,looked like it could be put back on,no prob....but,I didn't didn't ask if he still had it,sounded like he keep most things he remover,so he might have it yet.


I live near Mt.Plesant,MI.....so I'm only about 30 miles form the Pure Stock Drags....and will see ya there,if ya make it up this way.

[Chevy454]

TC:

BE SURE and look me up around the second week of September, as I plan a pilgrimage to Stanton every year. I know of a couple of Berger cars being restored that we could probably take a peek at, and could probably find some done cars if I looked hard enough. Heck, bring your car over and make some passes...that way you can have it all tuned up and ready to go for the following weekend (hint http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gifhint)

[Rat_Pack]

Old drag cars are cool! Leave it dirty and bring it to the reunion.................RatPack..............

[TC]

Will Do,I'll surely be around that weekend http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

It will be a at least a couple years,before my car will be there,though(unless you'd like to see a pile of parts...dumped in a parking spot...LOL)
So,I'll just have to drool all over your's and every one else's...for the time being http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

[Chevy454]

TC:

We'll be easy to spot: a yellow '69 Yenko Camaro, probably parked next to a HUGE black truck/trailer. And, hopefully, Pete and his COPO car and JJ and his Nova will be next to me. Be sure and look us up.

Rob Clary

[TC]

Ok,I snatched some pic's of JJ's 396, and your Yenko.I only got a couple shots of your car(if I remember right),cause you were doing some tuning on it,and I didn't want to get in your way...Very nice...I just loved both cars.
I can't remember exactly what Pete brought(white 69 COPO,maybe?)...I'm sure it was just as AWESOME,as all of his cars though.

I'm Defiantly looking forward to seeing you Guy's there this year...Rob

[Chevy454]

Yep, that was me! The guy that did nothing but work on his car the entire week! I thought the "Certified Stock" tear down was going to be the hard part...heck, that was a piece of cake compared to when I finally got to the track!

Pete's car was the white COPO you mentioned, which happened to be sporting a new ZL-1. He was running in the 12.3x's, and rumor is that he has found a couple more tenths...

[Edited by Chevy454 (01-13-2002 at 05:56 PM).]

[COPO PETE]

Rumors, rumors, rumors........... http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif
Peter

[TC]

Hehe,I've spent all day over to Edmore...under the hood myself,can defiantly be pretty frustrating.If ya have any trouble this year,and need a hand,I'm pretty handy with Big or Small block Chevys.....or if ya have really serious problems,my shop's only about 45 minutes away....Same go's for any one else thats going to be there.

Didn't they pair you up with the Studebaker last year Rob?
I just love that Stude...that car has to be one of the all time best Sleepers ever made.

Rumours huh...now we'll just have to wait and see,if Pete's trying to pull the wool over our eyes http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif
I'd really like to see the LT-1 Nova,there one of these year's http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif

[69motion]

awesome car why havent you bought it yet !!!! jeff

[tom406]

Sounds like you're trying, TC, but maybe you can use the Barrett Jackson COPO sales last weekend to help in your negotiations. 39K and 45K for COPO's at the worlds craziest auction should chip away at that 100K asking price. Unless he doesn't want to sell, in which case, the point is MOOT.

[TC]

Sold

[AutoInsane]

Is this one of those ' I could tell you but I would have to kill you scenarios'?

How much??

[COPO PETE]

If you bought it TC, congrats, cool car!
Peter

[shor]

TC, I can't tell if the "SOLD"is a happy one(you bought it), or a sad one(you missed it).
If you don't want to say you could use the happy face or sad face icon to let us know.
chris

[TC]

Well,unfortunately it won't be sitting in my garage,but hopefully it has gone to a good home....and will be back in active duty soon.

I didn't ask who bought it,or what it went for,but I'm sure it wasn't a penny less than I was told would buy it.

TC