COPO Convertible

[AutoInsane]

This was a question asked on Kevin's web site (http://corvettes-musclecars.com):

Does anyone know anything about a "one-of-a-kind" 1968 COPO Camaro Convertible??

[REDZ]

There was a '68 Z-28 convertible built for Pete Estes. I think it was actually a completed car which was sent to the engineering dept. and converted to a Z-28. I don't know if it carried a COPO designation or not. Milt Robson bought the car from the Mecom Auction in Chicago about eight years ago, and then resold it about three years later. A couple of years ago it was purchased by Al Maynard in Detroit.

[Edited by REDZ (01-07-2002 at 11:03 PM).]

[SuperCars]

REDZ has the story down pretty good. I saw it at Milton's quite some time ago. It was the real deal. Not sure if you would call it a COPO though; what COPO number would it be? More of a situation where one of the Bosses, Pete Estes walks in the plant and tells the boys: "I want this type of car built".

Milton got it at the auction as said above. Later Milton sold it to Rich Steele in Chicago. Rich had it for a year or so; tried to get me to trade a 70 Hemi-Cuda Convertible I had. He eventually traded it to Al Maynard for a 69 Z28, a Hemi motor, and a 63 Z06 Big Tank Vette with set of GM Gear Drive Hub Knock-offs. I did end up buying the 63 Z06 Big Tank Vette from Rich Steele after that. The Z28 Convertible was always priced higher than I thought it should've been. I knew it was one-of-kind, but it just didn't do much for me, especially with the price tag that was on it.

[Jeff H]

Was that the crossram, JL8 Z28 conv that was in the magazines? I know hi-po big blocks are awesome, but how can you not like that 68 with the combination that you couldn't order?

[JoeC]

It is difficult to put a price on it but it has to be one of the most valuable and historical Chevrolets ever built. It is a well documented prototype that escaped from the factory and was Estes personal car. Not only a convertible Z but, if the Internet buzz is true, it has four-wheel disc brakes Œ69 prototype fiberglass hood, factory headers, and a bunch of other options. They also list "cross-ram air"? Does this mean it has a 2x4bbl cross-ram and AC? There is a web page on it at

http://stdev.scc.spokane.cc.wa.us/rvasalech/68cv_z28.htm

[SuperCars]

I don't know which magazines you're referencing; I'd have to assume it was though, since there is only one. When I first saw it I was at Milton's and he had just received it. The Cross Ram was in the trunk. He was quite excited about it, and my mind was thinking: "Z28 Convertible???-Milton, they never made one???". Lo and behold, this car is a perfect example for the phrase "never say never".

I wouldn't say that I would be against owning it, as it is a rare piece of history; just not at the top of my personal priority list. The first time I could've bought it, I was focused on other rare Big Block cars, and couldn't do both. The second time it was offered to me by Rich Steele; he was suggesting a trade with my 70 Hemi-Cuda Convertible which was, and still is bringing a lot more money; I was not willing to take a loss in trading.

The answer to the specific question of why someone wouldn't own this one-of-a-kind isn't just because of financial reasons; but one's personal preferences. I realize that to an avid Z28 guy, this car must be the ultimate car; whereas I still predominantly prefer Big Block cars. My personal opinion for collecting cars is as the phrase says: "there is no substitute for cubic inches".

[SuperCars]

I just clicked on the link that JoeC posted. The picture is at Rich Steele's in Highland Park IL, and exactly the same spot I saw it the second time around. Definitely a spectacular car. As I look back, I ask maybe I should've tried to make it work? But a guy can only do so much. I've had to pass on a lot of very rare cars over the years, but I'm not complaining either though.

There may be inconsistancy in the write-up. It didn't tell of the prior owner Milton. I was told by Milton it was a car built for Estes at Estes request. I wouldn't think they would have to build a Z28 Convertible to entice Estes to build the Z28's as they had already been producing them in 67 through 68?

[JoeC]

That story has been around for many years and seems to be accepted as true. The way I understand it is in 1967 the car was just RPO Z 28 but did not have the Z/28 emblems on it. In order to race in Trans Am the SCCA homologating requirement was 1000 cars. Chevy built 602 1967 302 Camaros but the SCCA let them slide by counting the 350cu in Camaro to make the 1000 unit total. In 1968 they wanted management (Estes) to approve the promotional ad campaign advertising the car as the Camaro Z/28. Turned out to be another one of Vinnce Piggins's good ideas.

[Rat_Pack]

Kevin, you are right about Milton being "excited" when he first got that car. Jake (JT) who was his right hand man for many, many years told me that I needed to come up and see this oddball Z-28 that Milton had just purchased. I thought it might be "Agent Orange" as he did not tell me the year of the car.

When I got there, JT and I finished watching a race that was on TV and went down to the bottom of the hill to his shop. We walked up to this British Green 68 convertible that had Z-28 stripes and emblems on it and a cowl hood. I said "is this the car?" He said yes and I said "okay someone put Z-28 emblems on a convertible Camaro." JT said nope, look at this and he handed me a stack of paperwork. I read through it and was just blown away that I was looking at the one and only Z-28 convertible. While I had been looking at the paperwork he went over and opened up the trunk and hood. I peered inside the trunk and there layed the crossram setup. He told me that Milton was more excited about this find than the Motion car. Then JT explained the hood to me as being the prototype for the over-the-counter fiberglass hood for the 69's for the Trans Am series. This car was loaded with options that I had not seen in a while on any Camaro, much less a Z-28. He told me that it was built per Estes request, because he liked convertibles, and was used as a promotional tool for the Z-28 plus as a test bed for parts for the 69 model year. He also said that Estes had another convertible 68 RS/SS 396 that was loaded.

I was up there one Sunday doing some research on some of the cars Milt had. JT and I were watching a Nascar race this time, and I told him that I wanted to get some more pictures of the Camaro's but I didn't have time that day and I told him I would be back towards the middle of the week. He said that was fine, just to give him a call and he would pull out any car that I needed to look at. Well I didn't get a chance to get back up there as JT passed away a couple of days later.

Shortly after that is when Milton sold off his collection, which you have a lot of his Camaros. I have not seen any of his cars since that day except for a few Mopars that were at Floyd's on display..............RatPack...............

[Denis]

Joe, the writeup claims the car was built mid-July 1968. The Z28 had already been in production for two model years by that time.

[JoeC]

From what I remember, the 67 and even early 68 Z/28 did not have the Z/28 emblems on them and they didn't really start promoting the Z/28 until later in 1968. They were looking for promotional funding from Estes. I don't have my books here but found another link with info from a Camaro book. I would have to look it up to check dates. By the way, does anyone know if this convertable Z/28 has AC?
http://www.67z28.com/history.htm

[Rat_Pack]

Joe, a/c is the one of the few options this car does not have. It is loaded, dlx int, fold down seat, am/fm multiplex, console and gauges, tilt, woodgrain wheel, remote mirror, spoilers, bumper guards, and pwr window. I have probably missed something but it has been a while since I saw the car.

There is a picture of the front end of it in Hooper's 67-68 Camaro reference book on page 236. For a car that was this loaded it is amazing that it was not an RS.............RatPack......................

[Jeff H]

Don't you just hate when cars like this pop up and break all the rules. LOL! Personally, I think if it was a Rally Sport car too, it would have been perfect. I wonder if the car originaly had the crossram with cowl plenum setup before they came out with the fiberglass crossram hood. But like Kevin said, it's hard to compare a 302 to a 427.

[REDZ]

Like Supercars, I had a chance to buy this car when Milton was selling after Jake's death. I also thought it was priced too high, but got caught up in the "wow" factor of the rarity of the car. You know how we play those rationalizing mind games with ourselves when trying to justify the purchase of something very expensive ( I think Milton priced the car to me at $185,000). Well I made him an offer and he laughed. Thank God! Several days later I came to my senses and realized that I had almost given away the ranch for a small block Camaro ( I also have always believed in the more cubes the better).

Milton called me several weeks later and said he would accept my offer, but by then I wasn't interested, which was good for him and for me. Good for him because I heard later that he sold the car for somewhere very close to his original asking price. Good for me because I didn't end up in the "poor house" with nothing but a $150,000 small block Camaro.

[Chris396]

I think the convertible Z/28 would be worth a lot more if more people knew about it. I had never heard about it until the Internet came along and I saw a picture of it. Has it ever been featured in detail in a magazine or book? I would personally rather have it than a ZL1, but that's just me.

[JoeC]

In my opinion the big block rule would not apply to the rag top Z/28. I don't find it difficult to believe that the value of this car is higher then a ZL1, Yenko, Motion, etc. This is a car that a show promoter can use to draw people to a show. Like a Grumpy Jenkins race car, or a Donahue/Penske TA car, with a little promotion it can be a celebrity status Camaro.

[SuperCars]

If we were able to compare "apples to apples"
like a one-of-a-kind SS427 Camaro Convertible to this one-of-a-kind Z28 Convertible, there is no question as to which car would win out in popularity as well as price.

But I agree with JoeC, and understand what he is saying. That this one-of-a-kind Z28 Convertible (small block) could possibly win out over a COPO (big block) Camaro. Still my personal preference would be, that if I was only able to own one car, it would be my ZL1 over this Z28 Convertible; yet I recognize many others may prefer the one-of-a-kind Z28 Convertible.

[Belair62]

I agree Kevin...I would rather own your ZL-1 also !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FREE heated storage...just call.

[tom406]

The '68 Z ragtop is featured in the October '94 issue of CAR COLLECTOR magazine. Neat, neat car. I'd like to see the paperwork regarding the 2x4's, as I'm skeptical that Pete Estes would want to drive a crossram equipped 302 around Detroit. With the 8 '69 Trans Am convertibles trading hands well in the six figures (last recorded sale I heard was $185,000, private sales are probably higher) I can't see how $150,000 plus could be out of line for this car. I don't think that the small block is holding it back, I think its the fact that its a '68 (least sought after 1st gen Z) and that its been so sparsely publicized (as noted earlier). If this was a one of one '69 Z28 convertible in a good color with reams of documentation, and lots of magazine features and appearances to let all the well heeled collectors know it existed, I think it would easily be up in Hemi Cuda convertible territory, eclipsing even the awsome ZL1's. I understand the big block mystique, but that doesn't always hold water when '69 Z28's routinely bring more money than '69 SS396 cars, even with their greater numbers and lack of cubes.