Supercar Originality

[watk69]

I'm fairly new to the board, had it in my mind to search for the ultimate supercar version of a 69 Camaro. Not unlike the Corvette hobby of which I own a few, my supercar search has been rife with potholes.

It has been my experience that, what gets by in Supercars is shunned in some collector segments. Namely, very few Yenkos, ZL1's & COPO's have their original drivetrains either through racing, abuse or being sold for other applications. Big block Corvettes have a similar fate but...........they are priced accordingly downward if their non original drivetrain can be proven.

In Supercars I see fantastic sums being asked and changing hands for admitted non original engines and drivetrain, or even rebodied cars. Why is that? Is it because its lineage can be traced (VIN) to be a Yenko? Is that where the value is - a firewall with VIN and trim tag intact belonging to what used to be a Yenko?

It must be supply and demand, there are so few original cars left out there with not many being made in the first place, that people interested in them have lowered the bar in their quest for originality.

I for one will continue to be fascinated by the cars, but not by this Scottsdale Auction induced frenzy and acceptance of non original as being good enough. The idea of a 165k non original motor ZL1, along with 100K Yenko rollers with replaced everthing, is crazy.

My question is "Wheres the Value Here?" I'd honestly pay more for a Yenko survivor with stripes falling off knowing it had the stuff on it the day it was made than a ZL1 resurected from "correct" date coded parts.

Clif

[Stefano]

Clif,
You seem to have answered your own question. With less than 500 Super Cars of all denomination documented and accounted for (this number is very generous)there is not much to pick from.
If you want original its going to cost you, at least in todays market.
The B/J auction has always been a barometer ot the 'market'. The television coverage of the past few years has brought the real time info. into our homes.
While B/J has set numerous record prices , on various types of vehicles, throughout the years , I believe that only one Super Car set an auction record, this year.

Just my observations however.

[tom406]

I would agree that the limited numbers make the "numbers matching" side of things less prevalent. With ZL1's, if you have to have an original engine car, that leaves you with about 7 cars to choose from. Those cars rarely come up for sale, so you're in for a wait, or a lifetime of frustration.

I'm also going to state my personal opinion here (*not representative of the business I work for*): Corvette people are nuts. (Well not totally, and about half of them are wonderful people.) But the "numbers matching" aspect of that market is all out of proportion to the intrinsic value of the cars offered. I understand as well as anyone the value in documentation value of an original motor, but to wipe out $20,000+ in value on a documented, solid and unhit big block car that was unlucky enough to have its block decked or a CE replacement block within 1 year of delivery is looney. Time and time again I see people not even consider excellent cars, and buy lesser cars with sordid histories that through sheer luck kept their original blocks, (or were likely treated to a skilled restamp). Many times people don't even know what numbers matching means, or where the stamping locations are, but they KNOW they can't buy one that's not "numbers matching". There's no perspective.

I'm not saying original engines aren't worth a premium, I'm just saying they're not the beginning and end of values.

[Bradley MacKenzie]

Very well put.
I have never heard the state of the market summed up so eloquently.

[jon rand]

A correct car is more than likely what you will find out there. A true numbers matching car is a rare animal, espesilly when it comes to muscle cars. My dad worked in a chevy service dept. from 68-73 He said you wouldn't imagine the amount of waranty moters and transmitions he ordered. 302's,350LT1's,396's,427's,454's. He said a guy would by a 302Z and usualy they would tow it back a mounth or two later with the bottom end stuck through the pan. He said if a man under 30 bought one of these cars you could expect to se it back within a year.And if they didnt scater the moter they instaled headers,carb,intake,shifter,differnt fan,tall ball joints,stiffer front springs,distributer, So in my opinion there is no such animal as a true numbers matching car. Even the 24mile LS6 chevelle is missing its polution pump.

[T Billigen]

You are right! First thing to go on these muscle cars was the smog,exhaust manifolds and shifter. I have a low mileage camaro, luckily it still has original drive train,but it is missing the smog and original manifolds, the first to blow was usually the tranny, those Muncies could not hold up to the torq of the big block engines.

[T Billigen]

One other observation, I don't think original motor or trans is as important in a Yenko as in most other cars, they are so rare and valuable that people will still pay a premiun price to own a piece of history! (my opion)

[watk69]

You could take that above to an extreme though, at what point does it cease being a Yenko. Me thinks a rusted out tub or cornfield find needing a whole body, whole new drive train, everything except the VIN plate ceases to be the legendary Yenko, for me at least.

I'm a time capsule guy, ragged original or inteligently bought dealer replacement parts when stuff got blown up suits me just fine as long as someone thought to keep a record of it. To me thats more valuable than a car that had to be resurected from date coded parts.

As for the stuffy Corvette crowd, they created this mess called a show car and numbers matching hysteria. Thats another topic or peave of mine - the Trailer Queen for another thread. Why own it if you can't "feel the legend" every once in a while albeit carefully.

[Edited by watk69 (02-28-2002 at 09:45 AM).]

[Edited by watk69 (02-28-2002 at 09:47 AM).]

[68SS396]

Not true Jon. I have a TRUE numbers matching car, a 68 SS 396. ALL numbers match, Engine,Trans and Rear. This car even still has the original manifolds AND smog system. The car only has 64,000 miles and the only items not original ate the usual wear items, such as hoses, belts, alt. and so on. The engine has had the valve covers off it for the FIRST time 3 weeks ago, only because they started to leak back by the rear exhaust ports. If you want to see this car go to:
http://community.webshots.com/user/bzacek
and look under MY 68 SS.
The car might not be a SUPERCAR but it is an original numbers matching Big Block car. Believe it or not there are still TRUE number matching cars out there.

[jon rand]

68SS396, I know there are matching numbers cars out there but they are very few. Congrats on owning one of those few.

[Jeff H]

The original engine might not be as big a deal on a 67 Camaro or 69 Camaro with X codes or build sheet because that information helps verify the car. But on cars like early 69's and 68 Camaros, the original engine/trans/rear might be the only way to verify the car is what it's claimed to be. A 1968 Z28 without the original engine is pretty much just another 1968 Camaro unless you have paperwork. But we all know that a lot of cars have suddenly had paperwork appear too!

[69L89396]

I don't think that is a fare statement because you could be looking at an orginal car and it happen to not have the paper work with it. If you were to check every thing on the car and find it to be correct, then how could you say that was not a real car and discount the valvue?
You can NOT prove it is and you can NOT prove it is not. My 2 cents http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

[JoeC]

The "original engine" is one of those terms that has a lot of emotion but not much logic. You can use NOS or exact repro parts on the car but people get emotional over originality of the engines. It is acceptable to change body panels, the interior, brakes radiator, gas tank, dash cluster, etc., but a replacement engine will subtract value? If the casting no. and vin match the car, and it is correctly restamped and has proper broach marks, etc., and nobody can tell the difference between the replacement engine and the engine in the car, then I don't see why the restorer just doesn't call it an "exactly restored engine." Many restored cars have "exactly restored engines" that magically become "original engines." When you talk to original owners of any solid lifter big block Chevy car they laugh about "original engines." These cars would rev past the design limit of the valve springs and other parts and many dropped a valve and blew up. Ninety percent of the original owners I have talked to said the engine was replaced within three years. One Yenko Camaro got a "window" in the block on its first night of opperation! There are some "real" original engine cars but it is as rear as original paint, in my opinion. It is better to have the original rear end on a COPO car because you can at least verify it by disassembly. Today an original engine is difficult to verify so you have to rely on the accuracy of the history of the car and the honesty its past owners.