State of Hobby

[JBB]

Gentlemen and ladies. I don't own a C.O.P.O. or a Yenko or Baldwin Motion car, just a L-78/Th400 factory car, and I saw something that disturbed me, and I hope owners of the cars that have this website's namesake are very disturbed. On page 1679 of the 2002 Mar.Hemming's motor news is a dealer or like selling "technically correct" C.O.P.O. clones!!!???!! I think reproducing a limited number of past model's cheapens the real one's, as with fraudulent reproduction of documents, tags, motor #'s, ect., who is to say what is real and what is not??? What is the point of owning a 69 C.O.P.O of which less than 1200 were made, and there are 5000
cruising around!!! This is a problem for the Auburn Boattail Speedster owner, The 69 KR500 owner, the 33 Deuce Coupe owner, the Charger Datona owner, and on and on. This is a problem for ALL Antique vehicle owners.Joel ILL. Camaro Club

[69L89396]

I don't see a problem in someone building a clone and selling it as a clone but when they advertise a clone as an orginal car, then that is when I have a problem with it.
I think the biggest problem is that some people are able to get paper work for a clone and that is what messes things up.

[DjD]

Just using the AC Cobra as an example. There must be 30 companys that offer kits to reproduce a Cobra. I wouldn't know a replica from a real one but from talking with an owner once at a show, he wasn't bothered and actually has a replica to drive and shows the real one. If there is a way to identify the real from the replica it's no big deal.

Dennis

[69L89396]

I'm going to change my option on this subject. What I did not think about is what happens to the "cloned" cars years from now when someone sells one to an unspecting, uneducated buyer for alot of money thinking they are getting the real thing, then finding out later it is a fake or clone. This kind of thing could have a drastic effect on this hobby generations from now.
The big question is how do we protect the hobby from this kind of thing. I really don't see a solution to policing the sell of cars and even the parts that are sold.
If you think about 50 or 100 years from now what will this hobby look like?

[Belair62]

I just saw this ad in Hemmings too ! He is taking orders !?

[Edited by Belair62 (03-04-2002 at 10:16 AM).]

[Tom Hendricks]

I think you protect yourself in the car hobby, just like you protect yourself in life. Education and experience. The smarter you are, the less chance of getting burned. It doesn't hurt to have smart friends too !

[Unreal]

I agree with Tom on this. The most common argument I hear against the clone builder is that somewhere in the future some poor, unsuspecting buyer might get taken. Then in the next breath we brag about the great deal we got from some poor, unsuspecting seller.

We protect the ignorant buyer, but take advantage of the ignorant seller?

[TimG]

It is very interesting to read the Shelby Registry on 427 Cobras. Some original ID numbers from destroyed cars have been attached to aluminum clones. Informed buyers can determine a clone, uninformed buyers may get taken. Here, the registry will give insight to the true history of the vehicle.
As the history of cars gets cloudy, it may be hard to determine the true origin of many vehicles. It would be nice to have some type of Supercar registrty. I had a L89 Corvette and there was an informal registry for these vehicles.

[Rat_Pack]

Guys I have had some of the same concerns. Years ago I had built a Yenko clone before there was ever such a thing. Other than a few things that were wrong it was hard to tell it from a real one. However the trim tag would because I did not buy a repro one to change the color of the car. The original color of the car was Butternut Yellow which was not available on the Yenko Camaro in 69. I traded the car off after only a few months of owning it and it passed through a couple of other car dealers and eventually was sold as a legit car.

The kid that bought the car did not know it wasn't real as he was never told. Once he got the car home and was inspecting it is when he found out that it wasn't real. What gave it away, the 10-bolt multileaf rear that was original to the car! I never changed it as it was a daily driver and I never represented the car as a true Yenko. Well that kid tried to go back to the place where he bought the car and when he got there they were gone. Closed for good and not a car in sight. He ended up keeping the car and spent a lot of money making it correct. He bought a correct date coded MN code 427 with M21 trans and then he found a correct date coded BE rear axle. Now this car was correct except for the trim tag showing the original BY color code. Since then the kid (22 yrs old) has died from cancer and the car was sold to another dealer. It came up for sale a few years ago as a "clone" and is now somewhere in Alabama.

With repro trim tags still being made today, the owner could have a correct one made and then have a really good clone car. This car could possibly be passed off as a legit car say 10 years down the road and it would be hard to prove it.

How does this get prevented, easy, publish the numbers for all of the Yenkos and known COPO's. Once that is done this problem will go away for those cars. That is the only solution for this. However we know that some people still make money by confirming whether the car someone is buying or selling is a legit Yenko or COPO by keeping the numbers to themselves. I don't have a problem with that as long as there are still cars out there to be bought that are not documented. Now Yenkos are not the only cars cloned, how many 69 Z-28's are on the road today compared to the amount made? I bet it is close to double the original numbers. Clone/fake cars have been around for years as once people found out that their 350 Camaro was worth more if they added SS emblems and stripes then it went downhill from there.....................RatPack...........

Sorry for the long post but sometimes I get a little long winded.........

[69L89396]

That is an interesting story Rat_Pack. You can see how something so simple can get out of control.
I agree that there are alot of cloned Z28's but to clone one of those cars cost about the same as it does any other. The value of a Z is not like the big block cars and would be hard to make a profit in resale. On the other hand, the big block L78 and L89 cars bring allot more money and those can produce a profit from cloning. So how do you get a list of all the cars VINs that were made and where do you draw the line. I can see this being a huge problem for the future!

[Peter]

I do believe the known vin's should be listed. Its really the only part that can't be faked. You can get correctly dated parts, fake trim tags, ect. Can't get a fake vin and even if you could it is a much more serious offense and much easier to get caught. The very next owner will find out the car is a fake by the fake vin that is aleady registered with another car rather than the fourth owner down the line that has no one to go back to. I also believe a published list of vins may help to find some of the missing supercars that have been raced, butchered, and sitting somewhere not looking like anything more than a hulk of a car that people wouldn't even give a second look. About five years ago I looked at a car that was in the local paper. The guy said it had no motor or trans but the body was perfect. When I went there (by appointment) no one was around. I could see why because the car was very rusty and he probably didn't want to hear my attitude. BUT the car looked completely original, paint, int, ect, just in bad shape. It had power front disks, rear spoiler, 12 bolt, was a std trans car, and didn't look like any other options and everything looked original. I wasn't really thinking about what it could have been. I was just upset the car wasn't as advertised and went home. When I got home I started thinking about the car again and what it could have been. When I finally realized how stupid I was for what it could have been and my lack of having any knowledge as to what to look for at the time I called back for some more info, car was sold. It was cheap but not that cheap so it never left my head that it might have been something. A list of vins would have at least been a real good start if the car might have been something and on the list, if I was smart enough to bring the list with me!

[Rat_Pack]

Peter, I can tell you that the title searches have been done and just about all of the cars that are missing are just that. They have been junked, stolen, or forgotten about all together. The numbers just need to be published and it would end the arguments whether a car is legit or not, especially the Yenkos. I traced an old drag car and found it was stolen in 74, recovered in 76, and gone for good by the late 80's.........RatPack......................

[AutoInsane]

How many Super Cars does the Registry now have on file? Is there a need to also keep track of the Clones wiht a 'Clone Registry'?

Who keeps the records for the registry? Are cars that are know but not offically registered by the cars owner put into the Registry to track them?

I know 'Yenko Bart' had a list of known Yenko vins, why does the person who gave him the list not want it published or entered into the Registry for that matter?

How many cars are currently on file with the Registry and will there be a page in the future to view them?

Just a few questions.....

Billy

[68l30]

I am taking a look at the other side of the coin.Would I want my VIN in the open for everyone to know?Some of these cars are worth a lot of money.Now you know my VIN,do a trace,now have my home address,it can happen.I know someone could do the same at car lot or at a show,but this list is easier and no doubt correct.This is one reason there are privacy laws to protect individuals from gaining such info.I believe it is great to have a list,it is needed.The people with a list have offered to help any which way they can in documenting a car.The cars that are missing are just that.A VIN will not find that car if it has not been found already.People have tried,the only thing left to do is the hard leg work.Who wants a 2am phone call from somebody looking for a Yenko that was found 15yr. ago?I don't own a Yenko,I would however love to and realize this list won't help me find one only document a car that I may buy.Please don't take this the wrong way,it is only a opinion,and everyone knows what opinions are like.... http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/burnout.gif


Steve

[whitetop]

The high prices of the original supercars can be attributed to clones. In many cases people will pay a higher price to get an authentic car with paperwork because they know very good/exceptional clones are out there and will pay much more for the car than market value to get piece of mind. If there were not any clones the prices for your cars would not be what they are today. Hope this makes sense. Bad for buyers but good for sellers and ones who currently have the cars.
Dave

[Edited by whitetop (03-05-2002 at 07:05 PM).]

[Unreal]

About a year ago, I proposed a "Clone Registry" to Tom, and offered to keep it up. I thought that would be a good way to minimize fraud. That offer was rejected. My offer still stands.

[TimG]

I can understand the concern of publishing ID numbers. There are many rare cars that have their ID number published and it would be interesting to know if there are any negatives from this. The Special Collection at Bloomington has the ID numbers of each vehicle along with the owners name in the program each year. The Shelby Registry has the ID number of each vehicle and the owners name published in it. Many times, magazine articles have the ID number in the write-up about the car. Running a title search in my state, Texas, can result in the name and address of the owner of any vehicle. It is public information. This may be the risk of having a registry for supercars. Another risk is getting a fake on the registry, I am sure that there are cars that are not real that may end up on the list. This could actually help promote cars that are not real.

[NWYENKO]

Tim, I have a Texas car I would like to do a title search on. How far back can they go? What info is needed? Could you assist me? If so let me know what I need to provide. Thanks, Jim

[T Billigen]

I think it would be a good idea to have all know yenkos to have the vin posted. It would be great to have all COPO cars listed but I think much tougher to control, the Yenkos are a much smaller quanity to deal with, similar to the ZL1s which have all there vins listed. I think a list with the owners name and vin will discourage the people that purposely intend to deceive. I would be willing to e-mail my vin to Tom and have it posted. I also see Yenko Bart's point of view, he made a promise to someone that he would not post the vins and I think he is doing the right thing! (My Opinion)

[TimG]

NWYENKO, you will need a form 275 that can be printed out at www.dot.state.tx.us (http://www.dot.state.tx.us)
Click on customer service and then click on forms. There are two sides to this form. The cost is $5.75 and they can go back to the inception of the title in Texas.
If you would ike to contact them by phone the number is 512-465-7611, they will provide this service even if you do not own the car from what I have been told.

[NWYENKO]

Thanks for the info, Tim. I don't see a problem with creating a registry of vin,s and owners much like Marlin has done with the Deuces. I don't see where this makes the owners more vulnerable. I don't see a big risk is a listed car being stolen from this info. What would a guy do with it? Strip it and the value is gone. Try to peddle it and everyone would know where it came from. I think it would be very interesting to see how many cars this group could account for!! Just my opinion. Jim

[AutoInsane]

I think the idea of creating a registry similar to the Shelby Registry is a very good one. I think all known 'Super Cars' should be included in the Registry. Even if the owner doesnt register the car, if it is a verified car, it should be included into the data base.

Who actually keeps track of the Registry here and how many cars are registered?

[Ed Cunneen]

I have given much thought about publishing VINs for all of the known cars. Only a few owners to date did not wish to have their VIN published. When I published a partial list in my book years ago, some people actually conducted title searches on all cars, and actually found at least one car. However, as a fall out to this, some owners did call me, mentioning someone tried to buy their car and my name came up as to the source of the information. I will take the lead in listing these VINs, unless there is a general consensus not to do so. Should owners be listed also? Let me know how you feel about this.

[Denis]

I always thought the Boss 302 registry was exemplary. My wife receives it; I think it comes out once a year. Related website is http://www.boss302.com/ .

[T Billigen]

I think it would be a great idea to let Ed post the vins of individuals who wanted them posted! Who better to handle this! A lot of us have had Ed verify cars for us and he has a good insight on how to do this.

[bkhpah]

I have a COPO Connection certification for my Yenko. It was there when I bought it. Did you ever inspect my car Ed? N578866 for those interested to scratch it off the list of cars to find...BKH

[cavemate]

This is way Pontiac doesn't have this problem..The company kept records of every Pontiac sold. Too bad Chevy didn't do the same thing then all this wouldn't be a problem...

[T Billigen]

You can scratch this one off also: N613759 It also has a COPO Connection certification

[JBB]

Then let's do it. I started this discussion,
How could we post this. If the Registry would like to handle The ZL-1's, The Yenko Cars, and the C.O.P.O. cars. I would bring this to the table in my Camaro Club in ILL.
to handle the SS and Z/28'S. Like I said in my post, We just own a doc. L-78 69 SS, and
I would request the future nad the past be verified in our hobby. If we can co-ordinate a plan, e-mail me and lets get to work......
Joel-ILL.CamaroClub

[69L89396]

I still think if you are going to do the Yenkos and COPOs, you'll have to also come up with the VINs on all the big block Camaros. The next cars inline that are canidates for clones are the L78 cars.
Did anyone at Chevrolet keep anykind of records?

[JBB]

All that I have heard for years is that G.M.
destroyed all the records on the first gen Camaro's. But that doesn't make any sense,
Pontiac has the P.H.S. service, and I had a 1963 Cadillac Fleetwood that I sent $50.00
dollars to Cadillac and they sent me the build sheet as it sat in the assembly line folder!! Anyway does anyone know anyone at Chevrolet we can contact about this??..OH and by the way as 69 L-78 SS Camaro owners I would be honored to be on a site dedicated to the Yenko's.....Joel ILL. Camaro Club

[Stefano]

Just spoke with George at GM Canada, trying to get a Chevelle Build Sheet. They have them but will now only release letters of info due to key code liability, is what he told me.

Nice guy, proceeded to tell me about a fire which destroyed all the USA Chevy documents stored in Detriot.

He also provided a name and address to a Guy in Florida who has all the Buick Docs from GM.

Anyone ever get any info on their Buicks?

[Souperhigh]

Ed also did a certification on my 69 Yenko Camaro #N663794 for those keeping track. It has found a home in Oklahoma. I am also seriously looking for a Yenko Nova and Yenko Chevelle. Ready to buy if car is real good!!

[Kurt S]

The CRG database that I maintain does act as a registry of sorts. It was designed from the get-go not to be a registry, but a research tool and alot of information in it was gathered with the promise of confidentiality. But I can and do answer questions that people ask.
I've offered up a copy of the db format (it's in Excel) to Tom to help maintain the SuperCar Registry. I'll also extend that same offer to Ed if that will help organize the data that he has. Lot of work went into developing the format and we're happy to share the format.
Many stories still floating around about Chevy records.....

[Stefano]

Ed Cuneen and Company recently performed an inspection on my former Douglass Yenko COPO.

This involved amungst other items,checking all visable date codes and casting numbers, to include the secondary vin and removing the rear end cover to check dates and numbers.

[NWYENKO]

I don't have a problem with the list being prepared with as much info as possible. Again, much like the one Marlin put together for the Deuces. By the way, Marlin, maybe we could update that list with all the Deuce movement happening the last year or so!! Jim

[Ed Cunneen]

I will begin to list vins of all COPO's that have registered with me on my site. Perhaps I can add an owner first name and an initial for the last name. Anyone who wishes not to have their vin and/or name posted can just contact me and I will note it as private. If your COPO is not yet registered, please get in touch with me.

[sixtiesmuscle]

That's great, and, very generous of you Ed. Thanks!!

[COPO PETE]

So will this list consist of known car vin's that exist only???? I have a problem with listing car vin's that have not been found yet but are known to be copo's. I have a lot of numbers that the cars are not found yet and would not want to give the #'s for someone to make new cowl tags! The car #'s that exist is a great idea though.
Peter

[NWYENKO]

Good point, Pete! I agree. Is this list to be posted here?? Jim

[Jeff H]

Look at it this way, if you go to a car show, how many owners cover the VIN of their car at the show? Usually, they also have a form with their name and town written on it. So it's pretty much public knowledge at that point. I can see the argument of people doing a search to find where you live and wait for you to go out and try to steal your car. I'm going to need a decent security setup for my garage when my JL8 is finally finished but I haven't really thought about it yet. I don't know that lists of VIN's needs to be published, but if there is a definite resource to send a request to then that should suffice. I agree with Pete's argument against posting VIN's for car's that are not found for his reason and for the reason that someone may have spent a lot of time and money developing a lead on a car to suddenly have that knowledge given out to everyone for nothing. If Joel Rosen would give out his information to someone like Ed to allow Ed to be the person to check for a possible BM car along with COPO's and Yenkos. $1500 to find out your car isn't a BM car is a lot of money that could be going into restoring a car. One last thing, with the new Privacy act that was passed last year, making private information available could be illegal as well. I work for a mortgage servicing company and we must protect information at all costs now. That could be why GM of Canada can't release info like they used to.

[Rat_Pack]

Pete makes a valid point, list only the "found" cars and their current owners names with their permission. Do not list anything that would help verify the cars otherwise such as build dates, selling dealers, color & trim combinations, transmission type, etc...............RatPack................

[JBB]

Why don't we have someone like Mr. Cuneen
collect information on a private basis, and anyonw wishing to verify a car can call him or someone on that level who can authenticate these cars. Put them in a class,
like this:?
Platinum class: Original Window sticker, P.O.P., Dealership verification, owner history to new.
Gold class: P.O.P., Dealership verification
some owner history.
silver class: C.O.P.O. connection nows that vin to be a C.O.P.O./Yenko/ect. No doc's or
owner history
All this information is still private, but kept in the capable hands of someone like Mr. Cuneen or the like. This info is NOT to be released to any one except the chosen authority, or back to the present owner. If the vehicle is for sale, the seller can request a release of such info., if so deemed possible

[Kurt S]

Looks like we're talking something on the order of Steve McCorry's site:
http://www.mindspring.com/~mccorry/registry.html
Don't need to include that level of detail, but it's a good example.

[69motion]

ed i think posting the vins is a great idea if all the vins were known then there would be less clones around jeff

[Ed Cunneen]

Thank you all for your emails and comments.

I will post only vins of known cars with owners that have registered with me. Only COPO's with trim tags that agree with our records will be posted. Please check with the www.copo.com (http://www.copo.com) site for ZL-1 vins. I have just revised this list. I will continue this approach on the other cars in the near future.

[68l30]

Pete,thank you!That was my point exactly.How it can be done as far creating the paperwork for a new VIN,I don't know.But,if you can do a POP and other documents this couldn't be to far off in the future.Crooks are crooks,anything to make a buck.......

Steve

[Edited by 68l30 (03-11-2002 at 11:09 AM).]

[Norm reynolds]

Thanks Ed this is a start and can be a big help in tring to control the madness of what is and not real
it seems sad that 13 cars are destroyed hope the trim tags went with the cars as not to be used on a clone
Norm

[T Billigen]

Has anyone checked the COPO Connection site? Ed has started putting vins and names with the Camaros and Chevelles!

[MikeA]

Why would something like this be for sale? :rolleyes:

Nova Title (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1814156293&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1017105728&indexURL=0&rd=1)

Mike






[Edited by MikeA (03-21-2002 at 07:37 AM).]

[Norm reynolds]

Yes Mike why would some one sell a title?
this sould sent up all kinds of red flags what good is it ( to build a clone) building a car and useing that title is FRAUD
Norm

[Norm reynolds]

Just sent e bay a notice about the title for sell I know in the state of Pennsyvania it is not legal to sell a title I know in the past junk yards that did are now no longer in business and or in jail
Norm

[MikeA]

Maybe someone (site members) should note the VIN and see if it ever shows up somewhere!

From the ebay ad:

Title for 66 Nova SS L-79 327-350 horse 4 speed. Marina blue, Title only. ID#118376N136846.

Mike

[Norm reynolds]

E bay just e mail me back stated that I have to sent a letter to them about the problem about selling of a title
e-bay is realy hiting an all time low whats next ??? some one bidding for drugs if they aloud this to go on some one will next sell a vin tag to go along with the title now you have opened up the door for more cloned cars
Norm

[Norm reynolds]

me again just check e bay they just shut down that item 420 pm est glad to see some integrity left Norm

[Souperhigh]

What's next???? A thieves market on ebay?? A chop shop auction on ebay?? Somewhere this has to stop.How do these people sleep at night.Just my opinion.

[Norm reynolds]

I am glad e-bay put a stop on the title sell but this nut job will sell it some where else he has NO integrity and does not care. its all about the money
all we can do is keep the vin number and see if a car shows up and if some one is looking for infor we have it
Norm

[MikeA]

Good! I'm glad ebay put a stop to the auction but as previously stated it does not mean the guy still will not sell it somewhere. I'm not sure how to stop things like this from being sold. The only thing we can do is keeping the number for future reference.

Mike