Bogus Yenko sighting at Carlise

[bkhpah]

Somebody was trying to unload a very bogus 69 Yenko Camaro at Carlise this week. The car was priced at 29,000.00 and was being compared to the bogus orange Yenko from Texas as being a better deal. As you might expect the car had a large number of people around the car all weekend. I listened to the shady story about the car, and the way he was avoiding any real history with a bunch of I'm not sures etc. When I asked him head on what was the history of the car he confessed that it was not a real car. A short time later the car had the word clone added to the windshield. This car was Fathom Green with a very bad white stripe job. Be on the lookout for this car! Also on hand was a very bad Yenko Chevelle clone that was sold the first day. I has not able to get any real info on this one, but it was a red car with a white stripe and white bucket seat interior.

[Yenkofan]

The orange replica from Texas is now being sold by Hastys Car Country in Middletown, Ohio asking $37500. He acknowledges that it is a replica.
Gary

[tufrat]

I too was at Carlisle and also spotted this car (fathom green) as a clone, car did sound nice thou but what really caught my eye was on a engine stand on the hill was a aluminum moter the owner called a ZL-1 what was very interesting about this block was the YENKO logo cast and raised right in the block, but this block did not have srcew in freeze plugs ? I told him I had the truck to take it home but not the $10.000 asking price

[sYc]

Tufrat:

The Yenko ZL-1 blocks came in 2 varieties-screw in and press in freeze plugs. If it had the Yenko crest cast into it, then it was probably legit. Any idea of the seller's name?

------------------
Yenko Sportscar Club
www.yenko.net (http://www.yenko.net)

[JoeC]

There is also a Daytona Yellow 69 Yenko Camaro clone on ebay. The bid is up to 22k. Seems to be a lot of Yenko clones since the stripe kits became inexpensive and available.

[Yenkofan]

I have seen the Yellow replica on EBAY.
It is mechanically strong but the body and interior are weak.
As always, buyer beware.

[bkhpah]

I just received another call yesterday about another bogus Yenko Camaro. This one seems to have been bought at a PA car auction. The car is Fathom green with green interior. The new owner called about the car and nothing is correct NOTHING. The car was sold as authentic. The car was bought with the anticipation of making a big hit, not because they liked the car. If the car is sold very cheap, you can bet that it has problems. What happens next with this car is anybodys guess. Buyer beware once again.

[Chevy454]

I hate to hear stories about clones, because more often than not (especially here lately), the story ends with someone buying one thinking it is authentic. There is nothing wrong with "cloning" these great cars, or any cars for that matter, the problem I have is with the misrepresentation that normally surrounds them.

I wish people would research these cars a little more before they purchase them, as there are MANY people in this hobby who would be glad to help, and many of those helpful people post on this bulletin board!

Are there ways to cure this problem?

------------------
LS-6 Chevelle
(450hp, M-22, 4.10 posi,
AM/FM 8-track, red w/black stripes)

[Charley Lillard]

Volo Auto Museum had a LS6 convert. on Ebay about a month ago. Jay from Volo called and represented it to me as a real car. I later found out it was a built fake that Volo knew about all along. I Emailed Jay and asked why he tried selling me a fake but never heard back. The car is red with black int. I was told it sold for around 70,000.00 It was built in Wisconsin. All this Bogus stuff is getting old.

[COPO]

I too inquired about the "Bogus" LS-6 convertible at VOLO/ebay. I had Volo send me a copy of the P-O-P as well as all of the casting and stamped numbers. The most obvious thing about this car was it had a build date of August 1969 and the LS-6 was not offered until November of 1969. There was also an error on the restamped tranny that they transferred to the repro P-O-P. There is also a blue bogus LS-6 convertible floating around that Volo sold about 3 years ago. It was also "built" in Wisconsin.

"Caveat Emptor"

[Edited by COPO (05-03-2000 at 05:22 PM).]

[Charley Lillard]

The same person that built those fakes also built a Black with red interior LS6 convert. that was owned by Dave Simpsom. Mecum auctions bought and sold it. Was told it sold at Barret Jackson this year for around 85,000

[sYc]

You guys are right. This fake thing is getting out of hand and is beginning to hurt the supercar hobby. I think that we need to get organized and see if we can slow down the buying/selling of fakes. I have began talking to various people who have many of the records related to the supercars to get their thoughts on this issue. I would like to see some sort of registry, such as what the SCCA (Shelby) people have. What are your thoughts/ideas? Tom

[COPO]

This is a REAL problem and getting worse!

I think a registry can certainly decrease the number of fakes. You certainly aren't likely to see any fake ZL-1's as all the VIN's are well known, Joel Rosen has the Baldwin Motion numbers and Ed Cunneen has a many of the COPO's. There are a number of other registries as well.

I've started a registry and have been collecting LS-6 convertible documentation, VIN's, cowl tag, and option info for both the fakes and the documented cars. I've found several excellent fakes that have sold for BIG dollars to (supposedly) knowledgeable collectors. Some of which are mentioned in Charley's post above.

The registries will be much more useful to the hobby as a whole if the information is released to the public rather than kept in private hands. Clubs such as this are a good way to exchange information about cars as well.

Another problem the fakes create is a devaluation of REAL cars which are not heavily documented. I've talked to some owners of legit cars that have had repro docs made because of this issue.

Many of the Yenko Club members have well into the 6 figures invested in their car(s) and while I believe most of us love our cars and the hobby. Let's face it, none of us want our "investments" devalued due to the fakes.

Many of the car related websites have helped to weed out the obvious fakes, but there are many excellent "built" cars out there. Trim tags, P-O-P's, window stickers, are all readily available just look in Hemmings each month. The only documentation that I'm aware of that is not widely faked is the buildsheet. I will generally extensively research any car I'm looking to buy and have gone as far as hiring a private detective to track down previous owners to ensure a car I was buying was legit.

Of course Chevrolet could release the "secret files" like Pontiac and GM of Canada did and the problem would virtually cease overnight.



[Edited by COPO (05-04-2000 at 08:50 PM).]

[Peter]

Agree with COPO on this one. All these wonderful sights (not being sarcastic they really are great) do everything they can to keep the vin numbers and related info to themselves to keep the general public in the dark about what makes the car real so its harder to build a fake. Problem is that the buyer IS the general public that doesn't have all the info so they have a hard time knowing if the car is real and take a chance thinking all that paperwork that comes with the car must mean its legit. Yenko's, COPO's and such and being "created" all the time. When was the last time you heard of a fake ZL1 being bought and sold as real but ending up being a fake? Maybe you have but very rare. Why? Because the vin numbers and all related info has been public access to anyone for some time now. Most of you guys with real cars don't want to give up your valuable info especially now with even more fakes being sold but its not helping keeping all the info to yourselves. Its easy to say that if you think the car your looking at is real then call Joel Rosen, Yenko Registry, CRG etc but it may be too late by that time or too many other questions come up and by that time the car is gone. The ZL1 cars may not be faked as much because of the low number made but I think it is more related to the fact that so much info is public including the vin numbers. Its not that easy to make a clone and use a legit vin number. There are plenty of registries with all kinds of critical data on all these websites and until the info is made public there will be tons of clones made. Seems to me the info isn't hard to get, just hard to get public. People give their info to the registries hoping it stays with the registries. I understand that but it doesn't do anyone else that wants to purchase these cars any good to have that info solely in the possesion of the people that already know how to tell the bad cars from the good. I'm not bitter but I blame the registries for alot of the clones. I used to think to myself that the people that buy these clones are sometimes fools for asking "is the car I just paid tons of money for real" after buying the car. You guys all reply buyer beware and ask these questions before hand but its almost impossible. Can I call Joel Rosen in one minute if I'm at a auction? I don't think so. The only way to stop the cloning is to not buy them. The only way to not buy them is to know its a clone. The only way to know its a clone it to have as much information about the kind of car you are looking at up front!! Sorry for making this so long and thank you for letting me vent. I don't mean to upset anyone by telling them they should make the info public knowledge but its the public buying these things

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Fellow Enthusiasts:

I understand the logic regarding the ZL1 Camaros not being cloned because of the availability of the VIN #'s, but there is also a cost component to the ZL1's not being cloned. It is much easier and less expensive to install any big block engine into a '69 Camaro, spend less than $250 for some repro emblems and stripes, and clone a Yenko. If you wanted to clone a ZL1, it would be exponentially more expensive. I feel that the increased cost of searching for, and purchasing just the aluminum block and heads is enough to turn cloners away from the ZL1 model, and towards the Yenko's.

It would be a good idea to release all of the VIN #'s for the Yenko Cars, but there are no registries or clubs that have all of the numbers. We are collecting the data just like everybody else, and at this point it may be worse to release only a partial listing. Ed Cunneen and I have released a partial VIN of our incomplete VIN list of the '70 Yenko Novas. This is useful as a guide, but is not enough to derive any sort of sequence to the VIN numbers.

What I have found with many buyers of Yenko cars is that they buy on impulse, and don't make a very good effort to contact anyone that has some information. They regret this later, but only after calling somebody when they feel something is suspicious. Many potential buyers don't want to hear any bad news about some car they feel is a confidential 'find', and don't want the word to get out before they can buy it. It has happened numerous times.

Hopefully, in the future the Yenko VIN's will be published. However, at the present time, if somebody is comtemplating purchasing a Yenko, just put a deposit down to legally hold the offer open and call someone!!!

Opposing Thoughts??
Marlin R. Spotts Jr.

[Vern B]

The answer to dealing with the fakes seems
fairly obvious to me. We need to get all the owners of legitimate cars registered with
the SYC club. I think the club should not ask
a fee to register the car, but charge a modest fee ie.$ 50.00 to release the inform-
ation to a prospective buyer-WITH WRITTEN
PERMISSION FROM THE SELLER. This makes the
information reliable to the buyer and creates a source of income for the club.
(not that that is the primary objective)
It would be absolutely essential that no
fakes get into the registery, as that would
ruin the registery's credibility forever.
It might require the club carry some type
of liability insurance, or at the minimum
a valid disclaimer.
One of my other cars is a 67 GTO and the
Pontiac registry charged $ 25.00 (a few years
ago) to provide info on my car, which included the build sheet.
I understand there are others out there
trying to make money off of the data they
have accumulated and that is fine. The club
can do the same thing and provide what the
public wants, but still protect the current
owners interest. It would be a large undertaking to get all of the cars registered
and an even larger one to inform the potential buyers about the registery, but I think the word would spread fast. I would
think the large auction company's and legitimate dealers, would pay the fee themselves, just to maintain their credibility in the buyers eyes.
Would something like this work? Or is it too
large and undertaking for a club like SYC?

[Yenkofan]

Vern and others:
I agree with you about the registry.
When I bought my 69 camaro I immediately registered it with this registry and the COPO site. I provided as much info as I knew, for historical purposes, (like that the vinyl top had been removed).
Providing the info and keeping it updated can only add value to the cars.
Previously I owned a Yenko camaro replica.
I asked If I could register it with the club (as a replica of course) and they said yes.
Registering known replicas might also be a good idea.
Gary

[Chevy454]

Yenkofan & Vern B:

Those sound like some excellent ideas! We have a Shelby, and have dealt a little bit with the Shelby Registry, but I am not sure exactly how it (or toher registries, ie the Pontiac Regitry) works. It might be worth finding out, as they have been at for a while. Anyone else have any dealings with any other registries? How do THEY operate?

------------------
LS-6 Chevelle
(450hp, M-22, 4.10 posi,
AM/FM 8-track, red w/black stripes)

[COPO]

How would you stop "clones/fakes" from registering as "real" cars? Without someone VERY knowledgeable scrutinizing the car and all of the documentation it becomes an honor system and we all know there is a lot of misrepresentation out there. There is also the strong possibility of an honest owner registering a fake/clone believing it to be a "real" car. There have been a number of fairly knowledgeable collectors that have been duped into buying replicas that were represented as original. Unless an uncorruptable source can be found like the Pontiac Historical Society which uses the factory documents a clone/fake could be registered as a real car by both honest and dishonest owners. Ideas?

[Edited by COPO (05-09-2000 at 11:09 AM).]

[sYc]

Gentlemen; Congratulations! You have just discovered why the various clubs have not released to the public information on the Yenkos and other supercars. If someone contacts us, thay have to give us the VIN #, and, if we have a doubt about the car, we ask for trim tag #'s and other info. Right now we can take this trin tag info and compare it to other records and get a good idea if the car they are looking at is legit or not, or if they just came up with the VIN number somewhere. This is how the SAAC does it. They publish the Shelby numbers and current owner, but, if you call, they will ask you for the Ford number(which they do not release) plus they ask who the previous owner(s) was. Hopefully in the future we can put together a registry along these lines. Tom

[Yenkofan]

SYC and others:
Of course the registration process and validation is the key here.
We can't let just anyone say they have a supercar and register it as such.
There must be sufficient info provided to validate the authenticity of the car.
Perhaps a knowledgeable group can set standards for each type of car.
If we can accomplish this the club will be providing a most valuable function.
I will be glad to help, but I'm new here and less knowledgeable then many.
Gary

[Vern B]

I'm not sure how many cars Tom has registered
at the moment, but maybe what we do is go back and re-register the cars and ask the owners to provide whatever documentation they
have as to the authenticity of their particular car and register it as such. If
the information is deemed undeniably reliable, then a prospective buyer is informed of that. If the information is questionable, then a prospective buyer is
informed of that. Reliability on a scale
of 1-5 with 1 being the most reliable and
5 being the least and reasons why? I have
the original title application and all title work in between and have talked to the original owner of my car and
have a notarized/signed document from him
as to it's authenticity. I've never paid the
$ 150.00 fee to the COPO Connection to
document it any further, as I am satisfied
beyond a reasonable doubt that it is correct.
Is it possible we could do a one time buy
from some of the owners of that info ie. the
COPO Connection, Deuce Registry, etc to get
it in one file? As I said last night,I understand that they probably have untold
hours in getting that info together and are
now trying to capitalize on that and I respect that. What would be nice, however
is to somehow try to get that all into one
registry. I don't have the answer, just thinking and typing it out. The more discussion on this topic there is, the closer we will come to a solution. Keep the
wheels spinning!!

[bkhpah]

For the most part Marlin and myself have the numbers for the 1969 Yenko/SC cars and the 1970 Deuces. The numbers for the 67 and 68's are harder to come by, even though we have some. The trim tag information is important as well, and will give the legit cars a very strong document to go with. The trim tag is often the most overlooked part. The information on the trim tag will reveal a great deal of info that the person wishing to clone a car would likley never understand. I am not just talking X-codes here. To give a certificate of authenticity over the phone is in my opinion worthless. Without an expert looking at the car in person it would be hard to determine if the car even exists, let alone has the majority of correct parts. Some will even change the color to a more "desireable" one in order to get a bigger buck. With restamped tags, blocks, engine parts,etc it is easy to come up with the correct looking parts at the very least. Most people in the hobby are honest I have found over the years, but some are not. That's just the way it is and will always be even if the numbers are released I'm afraid. A registry will help keep the cheats at bay. I for one am not against releasing the numbers and have helped many people with their finds. I have yet to help one person that had a good number and found the "good deal" yet. The cars that have been called in about have always had a strong past history with them and were legit. If the price is good, beware.

[sYc]

I think that we all are in agreement that something needs to be done, and the sooner the better. Here are some suggestions. One, we need to form a group of interested parties and have them meet to organize a plan of attack, and also set some guidelines, such as fees, release of information, etc. In addition, they would over see the activities related to the supercar hobby, such as the registry, reunion, web pages, etc. Second, Brian is right, the best way to document a car would be to see it in person. A good place to begin doing this would be at the supercar reunion. Each year we have experts on the various supercars in attendance. We could have the experts on the Yenkos do those, the Harrell people do those, etc. Once a car is judged to be authenic, the owner would get something stating that the car has been certified by the Supercar Registry and also, the information on the car would go into a central registry. For people who own several supercars and/or can not make the reunion, then arrangements would need to be made to go see the cars. Both ways of checking cars would require some time and money, but once done, we would have a good base to work with. Even though I know the history of my cars, I would be willing to pay to have them certified and placed in a central registry. That way, if I ever sell, buyers would not have to take my word for it that the cars are legit. It would make the cars easlier to sell and I think, would raise the price, as buyers could bid with comfidence that they were buying a legit car. Third, we need one central registry for all of the supercars. I do not care who or where it is, I would be willing to work with who ever the group chose. In conclusion, as founder and president of the Yenko Sportscar Club, I will pledge full support from the club, in an effort to get this started. Its OUR hobby, so WE should determine how it continues. NOW!!! Tom

[Yenkofan]

Tom and others:
We ought to continue the discussion here, and, how about setting up a meeting at this years reunion to discuss this issue and form a plan?
Gary

[copo69]

Tom, Brian, and all, I too think something needs to be done. Clones and fakes are becoming more of a problem in our hobby and perhaps the club could provide a registry or certification although hasn't this been done by Cunneen and the clubs? How could we make this different? COPO makes some good points. Without some corroboration from GM it's going to be hard as the exact numbers of cars built is unknown let alone anything on specific cars. Without exact numbers from GM it would still be somewhat speculative determining a car's pedigree. Also, the club can only certify those cars brought to them. A lot of guys I know are becoming more private about the cars as they feel some of the registries are done for individual gains as the info is only available to a few people. I know this doesn't help much but these points need to be addressed. What about a published potential fake list? Probably way too much legal liability.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Tom and others:

You can 'count me in' towards any efforts to making the authenticating process better.

Like Brian Henderson, I have not, and do not, issue certificates or charge a fee to anyone who calls me regarding confirmation of a particular car. I started my registry on a quest for information, not to make any money.

If The SuperCar Registry is willing to be the 'Central Source' for maintaining VIN #'s, I will release to them all of the VIN #'s of the '70 Yenko Novas that I have, but withold the conclusive info that I use to truly determine a car's authenticity. I will also provide timely updates of new information. If someone wants to check on a VIN, the SuperCar Registry can confirm the VIN, but at their/my discretion can then request some further info to see if it checks out.

I will still continue to do research, and search for cars/owners. I do not have the capacity or desire yet to build a website, and maintain it. This would simply supply some initial info by which 'newcomers' wishing to purchase a Yenko, can access the circle of people who can reliably help them. I have several experiences regarding the release of info where it has come back to haunt me, everthing from a complete fake attempt, to modifying statements on my Registry Letterhead! So, I am justifiably hesitant when offering this info.

Additionaly, I think this can help the whole hobby only if we can maintain the integrity of the information. From a CPA standpoint, integrity requires more than one set of eyes for reviewing, crosschecking information, documenting results, reliance on particular 'experts'in their fields, ect. Hopefully, we can attain this by working together.

I welcome constructive thoughts/opinions,

Marlin R. Spotts Jr.
Yenko Deuce Registry - currently at 70 cars remaining!

[sYc]

Concerning putting together a group to over see our hobby, I have no problem meeting at the reunion, but we might want to consider meeting sooner. To me, the sooner we have the first meeting and set some guidelines, the sooner we can get things rolling. Also, if the group should want the Supercar Registry(sYc) to be the Central office, that is fine, but does not matter to us. The registry should have three divisions, one for the release of information, one for documenting cars and another to over see other clubs activities, such as publicity, newsletter, web page, reunion, etc. I like Marlin's idea concerning the release of numbers. The central registry would have all of the numbers and could answer basic questions, but once more information was required, it would be funneled to the person who is the expert on that model, Deuce, Camaro, Chevelle, etc. As per documenting cars, we could have different levels, from listing the VIN to a fully documented car. When we release information on a car, we could state what level the car's documentation was at. This would allow the owner several options of how to register/document his car. I think most owners would register their cars, but at different levels. Tom

[JoeC]

I am also concerned about all the Yenko clones that seem to pop up everywhere lately and would help out with verifications on the Yenko Chevelles.
Another problem is the lists of Yenko vin numbers that are being traded. Without much effort I was able to assemble a list of 140 1969 Yenko Camaro vin numbers. I was wondering how accurate the list is and where the numbers are coming from so I called Vince last night to see if he released any info on the Yenko numbers.
He has not released any info lately but years ago he would sell a Yenko Inventory Sheet to a Yenko owner showing their vin number. He said he would block out most of the numbers and just give them the section where the ownerÃs car was listed along with the cars with similar options. He thinks other people then copied and filled in these same Inventory Sheets and now the sheets do not match his originals. This may mean that there are fake Inventory Sheets going around so if any vin number lists are made there must be way to verify that the correct numbers are used and where the numbers came from. I donÃt know if Chevrolet released any numbers lately but Vince has the originals and maybe some effort should be made to include him.
I also asked about the total for the 1969 Yenko Camaro since many web sites still list it as 201. He said, many years ago, he was asked in a phone interview to give a total for a magazine article. He ran through the Sheets and counted 201 but later recounted more carefully and only found 198. The magazine printed 201 and that number stuck despite him trying to change it.