More 840 head questions...

[Chevy454]

I recently bought a set of mint 840 heads, and they are currently at the machine shop. Well, I told them to do a basic rebuild on them, and to put the correct for 1969 2.19/1.72 valves in it. Well, they called this morning, and said that they thought the heads originally came with 2.19/1.88 valves, as the area around the seats were uncut and had not been changed. The heads are dated F 7 9 and E 9 9. So, are these late heads, which GM felt were going to be used as service replacements, thus they recieved the 1970 size 1.88 exhaust valve, or... http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/crazy.gif?

Now, NHRA lists both the 840 and the 291 head as acceptible for use on the '69 L-72, and Colvin's book is unclear about the use of 291 heads (or at least un-clear to me!) in '69. The 291 heads came with the 1.88 exhaust valves, and Colvin said the 840s ceased production around May of '69. So what do we have? Could these be a "combination" 840/291 head? Was the 291 ONLY a service replacement in '69? Were 840s used as service replacements?

I am building this engine for the certified stock class at the Pure Stock drags, so whatever I find needs to backed up with some info.

[Edited by Chevy454 (06-18-2001 at 11:39 AM).]

[GMH454]

Can't help you BUT, you might have answered something that has puzzled me for a long time. Had a 435hp roadster for a while with a factory build date of early July 1969, and you can probably guess that it had one of each head. Never seemed to worry it as it could spin the 10" tyres effortlessly, but it sure had me perplexed. The head dates from memory were about 3 weeks apart. Car had been in Australia since early 1970 and the engine apart from loosing the tripower at some time had not been messed with. I figured that the 291 was a warranty replacement but now......
Terry from the land of OZ

[Rowdy Rat]

2.19/1.72 was the high performance valve package for rectangular port closed chamber cast iron heads until the 1970 model year when the 291 head was introduced. I don't know where the machine shop came up with a 1.88 exhaust, but I have never seen anything but a 1.72 in a pre 1969 cast iron head.

Your other question is a bit more difficult to answer. Did Chevy start using 291 heads during late 1969 (1970 model year)? I've never seen them on an original car and I've asked several other people who deal with these cars on a regular basis if they had seen 291s and their answer was "no" as well, but they didn't see a reason why it couldn't happen either... Obviously, you're right at the change over point so it is certainly possible.

Two points to add to the discussion...

I recently had a chance to look at a very low mileage 1969 L-71 Corvette at a show in MO. The car was in the 38,000 VIN range (very late build - it started down the assembly line on December 17, 1969) and had a little over 5,000 miles on the odometer. It had 840 heads although I have no idea what the valve size was.

What heads were used on the 1970 L-78 engines (don't have my resources handy)? What valve size? I had heard that only the LS-6 cars received the big exhaust valves anyway... Is this true or just urban legend?

Regards,

Stan Falenski

[Chevy454]

Stan:

According to CBTN, both the LS-6 and the L-78 used the 291 ehads in 1970.

Here is what CBTN (65-69) says about the 2 sets of heads:

840
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
* This cylinder head was the first big block head produced with a temperature sending unit boss. Very late 1967 cylinder heads would have the boss, but it would not be drilled and tapped. Production of this head began around May 1967 and ceased around May 1969. This head is identical with #3904391 except for the temperature sending unit boss and two accessory bolt holes added to the end of the head.
[/list]

291
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
* This cylinder head is indentical with #3919840 except that it has a tapered spark plug seat, and an exhaust valve seat redesigned to accept the 1.88 exhaust valve. As with #3964290, #3964291 was produced with both "N" and "peanut" series type spark plug seats. This was the last closed chamber square posrt cast iron head produced. It was produced in both plug designs for service replacement, including 1965 through 1969 model years. This was also used in 1970.
[/list]

So, does Colvin mean the 291s were ONLY used as service replacements on '69 cars, or that some cars could have gotten them?

[Rowdy Rat]

I get the impression that Colvin is saying that the 291 head replaced the 840 head in production at X date and also became the service replacement for the 840 when that occurred. From the information on the 840 head, Colvin leads you to believe that this date was around May 1969. If that was the case, you should start seeing 291 heads in cars built July-August 1969 as the stock of 840 heads was depleted. Terry's observations from his own L-71 roadster tends to support that...

Fact is that I haven't seen too many solid lifter 1969 Chevys that were built after July 1969... I know that they're out there, I just haven't seen them. This is definitely something that I plan to research. I did find it odd that the late build Corvette that I looked at still had 840s in mid-December 1969. You would tend to think that any 840 heads left in inventory would have been used long before this. I have e-mails out to a few other people on this topic; perhaps they can shed some light when they reply.

By the way, how goes the buildup for the PSMCDR? As I said before, I'm impressed that you've decided to go with the AMA specs for the certified stock class of this event... I hope that you do well!

Regards,

Stan

[Mr70]

I read Alans comment as available as both service replacement and original equipment.
I contacted the original owner of my 1970 L-78 Chevelle which came out of Missouri.He is sure my car came with the 291 heads and are what is still on it today.My Tonowanda engine build date is Sept.15th 1969.Cars Cowl tag date is Oct.24th 1969
Try the guys at www.mortec.com (http://www.mortec.com)
They have some knowledge as well.

[Chevy454]

I think you guys are reading it the same as I was...that 291s were available late in '69. Now, I am assuming they had the 2.19/1.88s?

What's with all these cars leaving Missouri?! You guys are KILLING me! Go get your own state! j/k http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

The build up was going great until this head issue came up. All the parts for the short block should be in this week, and will hopefully be put together shortly there after. I thought the heads would be the easiest part of the rebuild, until this thing came up! I really hate to ruin a set of heads because of mis-information! Thanks for the support, Stan, as I am afraid I will need all I can get! I just hope I'm not dead last!

[Chevy454]

Interesting info, GMH. So, it looks like there WERE some 291 heads installed in place of the 840s in '69, and they weren't just "service replacements" for the 840s. I am also assuming that the 840s I have came with the 1.88s so they could be used in conjunction with the 291s? GMH: what size valves were in the heads you are talking about.

The machine shop called again today, and said that the heads have absolutely NOT been touched, and that they came with 2.19/1.88s in them. He said he could put in 1.72s, put they wouldn't flow worth a darn due to the downsizing of the seat. He also mentioned that in his reference books, he ONLY shows the 2.19s being accompanied by 1.88 exhuast valves...the 2.19/1.88s are hi-perf while the 1.72s are low-perf and came with 2.06(?) intakes. My local parts guy (MoParts on here) also checked his books, and they DON'T show a 2.19/1.72 combo.

Any ideas?

[moparts]

Does anyone have any old GM tech manuals or parts manuals with this head valve info in it???? 69 dated????

Not having any luck finding the 219/172 combination in any parts books under 427 listing. That combo show up under the 396 listings. Rob and I have been comparing the GM by the numbers book with Gm performance parts catalog and my Sealed Power and Perfect Circle parts catalog and are having lots of problems getting information to match.

Now I am not saying that my parts books are always correct (have a whole shelf full of returns to prove that) but it sure seems funny that out of 3 different catalogs that none of them show the 219/172 combo for the 427 engines.

Now with all that being said, and assuming that the machine shop is telling us right,(assume = ass u me) is it possible that some of the late made 840's would have had 188 ex. in them? and how do you prove it??????

[Chevy454]

Well, here is what we have come up with so far. Let us know what you guys think.

The set of 840 heads we found are untouched, and original, and came with 1.88 exhuast valves...absolutely positive of that. They are also machined for BOTH plug types: N and peanut. This was common on early 291 heads, so I am thinking that the heads I have are kind of "in-betweens", or a combination 840/291.

Now, some food for thought. It took me a while of reading to figure out what Colvin meant in his descriptions of the 840 and 291 heads. He states that the production of 840 heads ceased around May of 1969. So, that means they switched over to the 291 heads, which had the 1.88 exhuast valves. He lists the 291 heads as available on the Chevelle, Camaro, Corvette, Chevy II, and Chev/Pass with the L-78/L-72/L-71 in 1969. That makes sense, as both the Corvette and Camaro production ran into early '70(?), and the 1970 L-78/LS-6 Chevelles and the L-78 Novas got the 291 heads. So, why would GM still be making the 840 head in late '69? They didn't...they switched to the 291 head across the entire car line around may of '69. The L-78 Chevelles were made before the LS-6 Chevelles were made, and L-78 Chevelle production ceased when the LS-6 debuted. But, they were still producing '69 Corvette and Camaros! So, you could essentially have a '69 Camaro/Corvette built AFTER a '70 Chevelle/Nova! Right?!

This explains why a lot of parts books and machine shop books only show the 2.19/1.88 combo for '69 cars...GM switched to the 291 heads around May '69, thus "updating" to the 1.88 valve, which would mean the latest combo is the one that the books will show. Another intersting note is that the NHRA shows the 291 head as being legal for 1969, along with the 840 heads. BUT, they only show the 2.19/1.72 combo on the '69 L-72s...why? Probably because the manufacturers had to have thier info submitted and approved PRIOR to the racing season, and GM didn't know about the "update" to the larger 1.88 valve until later in the season.

So, what is my point? Well, it looks like 1.88 exhuast valves were available in 1969 production cars, whether it be on some 840 heads or on the 291 heads. Now, how do I prove that my 840s originally had 1.88s, and who do I prove it to?

[Edited by Chevy454 (06-21-2001 at 01:21 PM).]

[Chevy454]

Well, I got the heads back from the machine shop, and I see what they are saying...they are definitely untouched, and came with the 1.88s.

But, I found something else interesting laying on the shelf in our shop: a 291 head cast just 3 days after (F 10 9) one of the 840 heads that have me stumped! What's interesting is that they also have the 2.19/1.88s, BUT take the peanut style spark plug where as the 840s with the 2.19/1.88s take the N style spark plugs. So, these heads were near the first and last respectively of their type cast...neat, huh!?

Now, more questions: I need to know what the rest of the things cast into the heads mean...like "GM3T", "CONV 4", "NO-5", etc.

Also, anyone know Alan Colvin's phone #?!

[Mr70]

You have mail.

[Rowdy Rat]

That IS pretty interesting...

I saw from your post on the NCRS Discussion Board that Terry McManmon came back with an answer referring to a Corvette with VIN #385## that was equipped with 840 heads. The car I saw in Joplin, MO (actually, Terry saw this one too) was VIN #386## and also had 840 heads. These are both mid-December 1969 cars so it looks as though the 840 heads were used for at least one car line until the end of 1969 production.

Your theory that 1.88" exhaust valves were used in 840 heads (or heads used late in the 1969 calendar year) is going to be harder to prove. You're going to need to find cars with original engines to prove this and the owners of these cars are typically reluctant to start taking them apart so someone can check valve sizes http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif. Add to that the published information from GM that calls for 1.72" exhaust valves and it appears that you have your work cut out for you on this one.

Having said that, I think you may be on to something here. If the 291s were getting 1.88" exhaust valves late in 1969, it makes sense that GM would make it an across the board move and use them in 840s as well... Proving it is going to be the tough part. I'll keep researching this (as well as 840/291 usage) and keep you informed as to what I discover.

Regards,

Stan

[Chevy454]

Stan:

I would GLADLY accept any help I could get on this! Believe me, this is THE LAST thing that I needed right now, as I was just really needing a set of heads to finish our engine for the "Certified Stock", but now I have a set of mint heads that I can't use, as they are possibly peices of a puzzle!

OK, so it seems we all agree that some 1969 cars got 291 heads from the factory? Right?! Terry had saw the 'Vette with 1 291 head and Ed Cunneen told me he had an L-72 (Camaro engine I believe) with 291s that he said came that way. So, now the question is what valves and spark plug seats should these early 291s have? The early (F 10 9) head I have has 2.19/1.88s and takes a peanut plug.

Now for the 840s! I'm kind of at a "cross roads" so to speak with these. I kind of need to run them, but I hate to as they may be something of interest to some people. So, I am going to TRY and hold off as long as possible on using them. But, everyone so far that has seen these heads believes they originally came with the 2.19/1.88s. But, like you said, we have to PROVE it. So, since we live in the "Show-Me" state, that's kind of what I plan to do...to whoever is interested.

So, since I have an 840 head and a 291 head cast just 3 days apart, does this mean these were possibly the days that they quit casting the 840s and started casting the 291s?

[Chevy454]

Well, I talked to Colvin today, and he said it sounded like something he would like to see. So, I'm gonna grab the digital camera and snap some pictures. He said he has been trying to finish up his new book (Corvette by the Numbers) but that he will try and dig through his stuff and see what he can come up with.

As for the 291 heads on '69 cars, he agreed that it happened, albeit on late cars, but he really hadn't had a chance to document any original engine cars with the 291s. So, if you own one, or know of one, you might contact Allen so he can document it.

But, for now, I'm stuck with a set of gorgeous heads I can't use (the 840s), and a set of heads that I am going to have to have re-seated with smaller seats and new and smaller exhaust valves (my early 291s) so i can run at the PSMCDR. Some days it never pays to get out of bed...

[Edited by Chevy454 (06-29-2001 at 04:15 PM).]

[moparts]

Is that the reason for 2 kids? Ha http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif