"Mystery" Chevelle LS-6 in NEW Muscle Car Review???

[CamarosRus]

Regarding the Hugger Orange 1970 SS Chevelle LS-6 on the cover of the NEW (and last?) Muscle Car Review......I've been under the impression that ALL 1970 Chevelle LS-6's & L-78's as well as 1970 L-78 Camaros came with A.I.R. "Smog" regardless of what state sold or what plant built....If it had the solid lifter high compression motor it got smog (including the 1970 Z-28)......can someone offer any reason why the "mystery" all-original car doesn't have smog.....OR educate me on the entire subject....Thanks,
Chuck Sharin/Seattle/[email protected]

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Chuck;
I thought it was supposed to have smog as well, and I thought the water pump was a replacement with the reinforcement ribs??
M

[Charley Lillard]

Maybe because it's just a Magazine article.. Chuck just wants that Air Cleaner....

[Belair62]

Wow...that one made all 3 of our local establishments ? Smog setup isn't terribly expensive but it reall caps off the engine compartment...even though it was probably the first thing torn off the car.

[Charley Lillard]

Picky Picky Picky............

[Belair62]

Although the white smog fans are now non-existent thanks to a certain bargain hunter

[Keith Tedford]

A certain someone didn't get my white fan.

[Edited by Keith Tedford (11-02-2001 at 10:08 PM).]

[Charley Lillard]

Geez..I only got two and I ended up giving Marlin one of them as a Baby Shower Gift.

[CamarosRus]

I got so carried away writing about the "missing" smog I forgot to mention that one year only RARE air cleaner.....Not very often you even see one of those let alone a nice color pic in MCR....From what I've learned the 70 L-78 Camaros, Non-Cowl Induction 70 Chevelles and 70 L-78 Nova's.....however Chuck Hansen suggested that the Dual Snorkel was installed after Jan 1, 1970 due to some new EPA noise laws whereas the open element previously used alledgedly caused the engine to be too loud....can anybody concure with this thinking......Anyway most of the 70 Camaro L-78's Ive seen are missing this RARE item and the owner has some "excuse" story why his car has the open element......Later, Chuck

[Mr70]

I was wondering when this car would come up.
Nothing Mysterious,it is not a full correct restoration.The previous owner didn't do a Frame off and didn't put all the details into the engine.You are right Chuck,it should have A.I.R. on the engine.It shouldn't have those Spark plug heat shields.It is definately a Monaco Orange paint code,it is the same as Jeffs COPO Chevelle code.
That car was floating around here in Ill. for along time.Volo,NIAB,then Midwest Auto Exchange.
All asking for 50-55K,until they found one.
I got alot of pictures of it as well as the buildsheet.It does have some interesting quirks on the buildsheet,but not the beat quality resto.No regrets passing this one up.



[Edited by mr70 (11-03-2001 at 07:30 AM).]

[Mr70]

The Dual was a later production air cleaner.Open element was very noisy under WOT.So they muffled it.
One of those Dual Snorkels was for sale at the Witchita swapmeet last February.The seller,selling oil cans, wanted $100.00,but ended up taking $50.00.A very good day indeed! http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

[CamarosRus]

Your'e killing me here...........chuck

[Mr Yenko]

I have (2) of those air cleaners and i noticed that the CO code on the side of the base is not there? At $50.00 i will take another (2) http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

[CamarosRus]

Anybody reading this......having any knowledge of misc smog components for sale to fit 69/70 L-78 or LS-6 and misc D.G. pulleys and misc alt, P.S. and smog brackets
please notify me.......what is the CO code Mr Yenko speaks of......with all these air cleaners hanging around you guys can start your own reunion.......Chuck

[Mr70]

The CO code is the suffix listed on the buildsheet for the Dual Snorkel Air cleaner.Also found on the side of the Dual housing is a decal that states"Keep your GM car all GM".All GM air cleaners have this decal.The Dual has the CO suffix on it also.
While at Peotone Il. swap last June,there was a Dual Snorkel for sale.It had the Snorkels completely cut off,but had the chrome lid and CO decal still intact for $25.00.Those orignal decals are hard to find in good shape...

[Mr Yenko]

The other codes are (DG) for Coul Induction
and (ss) for open element.That car is also NOT A STRIPE DELETE but a non-coul car with out the induction. When you ordered a coul inducted car it automaticly came with stripes . But you could DELETE them from a coul inducted car . And that is a TRUE stripe delete car. And i have only seen ONE in all my years around Chevelles. http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

[Mr70]

1970 Stripe delete specific Chevelles can be found.I have seen 16 so far and their build sheets show it as well.A few did not like to advertise their cars racing appeal.

[MY70SS396]

What about the hood pins on the 70 in MCR?

[Mr70]

When you ordered a working Cowl inducted hood in 1970 only.You got stripes and Hood pins automatically from the Assembly line.
You were able to Delete these stripes in this situation.But you kept the hood pins on from the factory.

This MCR car was ordered with the Standard SS bulge Hood in 1970.So it could not receive stripes or hood pins from the Assembly line.But the stripes and Hood pins were available for the Dealership to apply over the parts counter,if the customer requested that and paid extra.

This buildsheet will not show that,so we have to assume either the Dealership added the Hood pins during delivery,or one of the owners between then and now added them.

In 1971-72,Hood pins now came on working and non working cowl Inducted Hoods as standard.

[Kurt S]

I'm not fully Chevelle knowledgeable, but I thought the stripes were available as an RPO (D96?) on a non-cowl SS hood in 70.

[Mr70]

As RatPack stated,D88 stripes were available from the factory on Non Cowl hoods.My mistake. http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

[Rat_Pack]

Kurt, the stripes were optional on all non cowl induction SS models and even the Malibu's under RPO D88......RatPack..........

[redeuce]

Just to set the record straight. The car did not "float" around for a long time.The car was purchased by Tony down south. I sold it to a family near Chicago. They were not using the car, so decided to sell it. They consigned it at Midwest for a short period of time, it didn't sell, then contacted us, and we bought it back. We then sold it to Doug Young, a collector in Florida, who did a complete body off on the car before Tom Shaw did the article. The build sheet clearly states Monaco Orange, not Hugger. Also the car probably has more documentation than anything you "experts" have on your cars. In addition to all the factory paperwork, there was a notebook in which every oil change, tune up, part replacement, etc, was logged. Whoever the "expert" forum leader is, feel free to call me anytime at 847 526 5950 to discuss this. I probably already know you, but you wouldn't have the nuts to admit it to me. To Tom Clary- I have heard periodically that your boys like to bash people. I've talked to you personally on the phone-you are a good and well informed car person. Try to keep you slanderous "experts" on a leash- this whole thread is nothing but rumor, lies, and a big hoopla about heat shields. Why don't you guys get a life?
Randy

I might be stepping on your toes here, but you kinda asked for it. I really didn't find the thread to be "slanderous," as "slanderous" is spoken not written. If you want to use the correct term, it is "libel." In any event it was neither, as it was really a discussion more about '70 RPO's than anything else. Also when you go out on a limb and say that anything is the definitive example, whether concourse correct or the most documentation, you should really be able to back it up. While the car in question, is a nice looking car, it is not correct. It is well documented that LS6's used a smog setup, and I have never seen nor heard of one using spark plug heat shields. When someone spouts off about their cars correctness, and its' documentation then displays a car with these very obvious faults it makes you wonder what else is incorrect. As much as Mr. 70 (Rick P.) and myself disagree on certain issues I would like to publically say that he is one of the guys I would ask if I had a question on a Chevelle, especially a '70. The guy knows his stuff.
BTW...I can be emailed if you like...

[redeuce]

In no manner did I mean that Rick is not knowledgable- I know who he is. I am simply a car guy- I don't have wishes of stardom. My only point is that the "Mystery" Chevelle was totally restored after it went to Florida and before the article was done. So posting that it "floated" around for a long time and wasn't a good resto are incorrect. Except for the few weeks that Midwest consigned the car for the people, we were the only Northern dealer that had the car. It was never at Volo, as Rick stated. My whole point is that if you are an expert in a certain field ie '70 Chevelles, etc., all the power to you- but stick to the facts, don't fabricate a story about the car's history. Unfortunately, I sell and appraise all makes and models, so it is impossible for me to know every nut and bolt of every make and model. It is too much information and I need my library of books to help me in many cases. I apologize if I ruffled feathers-Tom Shaw may be off on some points in the article-however, the truth on the car's history is as I stated, not as Rick stated. Forums like this are essential to the hobby and I support them fully. Just beware of the power you hold in your comments, and realize that many novices take your word as gospel. If you Illinois guys want to do something good for the hobby, put down the boxing gloves and let's all meet at the Feed the Children benefit Saturday, July27.Shadows of Knight and the Ripchords are playing, Mindy Novotny and WIIL 95.1 are broadcasting there, and a good time will be had by all.
Randy
PS- Greg- Books are wonderful, however cold hard fact is that things happened at the dealer and factory that the books have no info on. I have a friend that bought his '70 Chevelle new.He got involved in an argument with some concourse judges that were telling him what was wrong with his car-their books were fine, but he had the car since day one and was the only one that knew exactly how it came from the factory. Truth is, we know of examples of many mistakes-some weren't mistakes- if they ran short of a part on the line, they didn't stop the line and say
'wait guys, this will be a classic and we have to do it right" They slapped in whatever was available. Don't go overboard on numbers and codes-enjoy them for what they are.

[Mr70]

Randy
Who are you upset with?
Me?
All who participated in this thread?
All Illinios Guys?
I have nothing against you,or this Chevelle.
I do have a problem with the way they Describe and Represent some of the cars you sell.
There was never any bashing going on in this thread.Only opinions about that featured Chevelle.
I am sure it is a very Nice car,and I wouldn't mind owning it.But not at that price,with those faults.
I know magazines can distort the facts a bit,as you stated,as there is nothing so Mysterious about this Chevelle.It just has one of the Special Order Paint codes.
If me calling this Chevelle Floating around is what is upseting to you,then so be it.This is hardly a reason to get upset about.In this day and age of people buying and selling and trading amongst themselves,its is common and not demeaning to this Chevelle.

I am not a 1970 Chevelle expert and have never claimed to be one.You labeled me that in this thread,and continue to do so.That offends me as I am just a Musclecar enthusiast like yourself.Don't put me up on that pedestal.I share my knowledge with all who ask for it as they share with me too.
I did not asign myself Forum Leader,it comes with the amount of time you spend here.Many,many more have this same title here as well.Don't take it literally.
I wish my opinion had that much weight with mankind,but it doesn't.
You as a MuscleCar salesman though,have a Responsibility to describe your cars REALISTICALLY.Take the high road.Don't mislead because other MuscleCarBrokers have deceived in their descriptions and gotten away with it.Only to have lawsuit after lawsuit later on.
Awhile back you had a 1970 L-78 Fathom Blue Chevelle that was being advertised as being built with Air Conditoning.We all know in 1970 Solid lifter engined Chevelles did not come with A/C.Yet you were claiming it was a numbers matching block to this car as built from the factory.When I looked at this Chevelle at Shaumburg Ill.Chevelle Showdown,It clearly had a completely different VIN# stamped on the block.Non matching to this Chevelle.Clearly a transplant.
The buildsheet I am holding for it is clearly an L-34 built car,with all it's respective codes.

Noone cares about how much volume sales a Muscle Car seller reports,or how much they just bought the
neighboring stores for to make room for more questionable cars.
In this day and age,you we be held accountable.
It's about trust.Look at Enron,Arthur Anderson,Worldcom,Xerox,to name a few.All deceived and got caught.
You say some people may take may opinion as gospel.Then you have the same responsibility as a Musclecar salesman.Don't sway the public with "Matching number" this and "One of One built" that.
If there is no factory documentation to support these cars,SAY IT.Don't take the attitude of "Prove us wrong" because there are no records to be found to prove this car wrong.State what is only a Fact,and not "a Maybe,who knows car".
If you are asking for Big Dollars on a car,your details stand to be criticized.That is why people nit pick the higher dollar cars more the an 18K driver.
If a restorer takes short cuts,he will be called out on them.
And don't say you are just the Broker,and the owner is asking for that selling price.
We all know you the Broker has a hand in setting the Cars price.
I am sure you have some Very Happy customers,but you must also know that you have some extremely irate Buyers.And what do they all have in common.Being Misled about a cars Heritage,Restoration or Documentation.I have many stories to tell about some certain Cars your company has sold in the past,but I will not go into detail here.It makes me ashamed sometimes to meet these buyers and see these cars,and have to say that I am from the same State and area as these Musclecar Dealers.Yes I know buyer beware,but there is no excuse for obvious ignorant deception at any price.I now you all keep track of eachother.It's a small world.
If you sell a car at a realistic price,then chances are that buyer will come back to you to sell that car in the future.Thats just good ETHICS and good Business.
Randy,I know you are a good person,so some of the tactics that are going on over there today may not be of your own wishes.If that is the case,then I would seperate myself from that employer.
Rick

[T Billigen]

Rick, did you get writers cramp????

[SS427]

Rick,
Very good point made. Hopefully you have not taken offense to me as I quite routinely refer to you as a '70 expert using your knowledge many times and also refering people to you. Keep up the good work.
Rick

[69rsss350]

Wow! You guys are something else. This hobby is all about neat cars and people who enjoy them. I agree with both the antagonists in this thread and also disagree on some points but I certainly don't want to bust anybodys chops. And we all know that magazines are highly unreliable anyway, all they want is to sell their fishwraps. I only buy them for the pictures.

[DZ28]

It's not just dealers that give the hobby a bad name, there are plenty of individuals misrepresenting these cars. It just takes a few bad apples to leave the hobbyist with a bad taste in there mouth. There's good and bad in every profession but the bad deals tend to outlive the good deals. It is everyones obligation to enlighten us with the truth. If you know the history of a particular car and don't devulge the truth, you're just as guilty as the seller. It is also I feel your responsibility to be sure of the facts as a seller or enthusiast.

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

There aint but one MYSTERY CHEVELLE in this one horse town...and don'tttt you ferget it!!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

Very well put Mr. Peters....Unfortunatly as the market goes down and car prices go up, the propensity for people to "embellish" (not refering to the Chevelle in the post, nor the delaer in question...) about any given car will increase. While I agree that there are certian cars out there that have quirks about them, unless they are fully documented (ie: original period photos for instance in the case of a no smog LS6) then Mr. Gibson's 90/10 rule (guess I can call it that...) should be used if undergoing a full frame off (with top dollar being a goal). That is if 90% of the cars would have had it, then add it since it was an obvious defect...
As far as the outright lying to misrepresent cars goes...it has always been my opinion (we all know what they are like...) that a dealer has an even higher ethical standard to uphold than a private individual...I know in reality it doesn't make a difference to the poor SOB on the other end, but a dealer is assuming some liability for product knowledge that the individual doesn't have....

[redeuce]

Rick
The only car that was ever at NICAB L78 with A/C was back in the early 90's. I should know-
I owned the car for 9 years-I never told anyone it was a documneted car, because there was NO build sheet-when I restored the car I only found fragments on the tank-vin # 136370L181932. By the way, it was probably a restamp but the SAME vin was on the block as the car. And yes I had it at Schaumburg-it was the year the guy with the white Chevelle kept doing burnouts on the frontage road. If you need any more info on the car, I have the file with the title history that I ran on it. As to the Mystery Chevelle, you keep overlooking the fact that the car was restored again when it went to Florida-have you seen it since? I doubt it. This guy put thousands into the car, and you're still telling everyone it's not a good resto. I'm not upset about the "floating " comment- I'm upset because you completely made up the history of the car in Illinois. What is the difference between the dealers "misrepresenting" cars and you sitting in here lying about the dealers? You proved to me you didn't know anything about the history of that car, so why say anything? As to honesty, you ask anyone you want about me. There's a few guys in here that know me well-if anything, I downtalk a car because with the uneducated Baby Boomers, we are now selling to a clientele that doesn't know where the dipstick is. And, unfortunately, many who find out it isn't a Cadillac with a Northstar System are badmouthing in many cases for no reason. I have been there 5 years and sold almost all the cars there in that time. We have replaced three engines and two transmissions for customers at no charge, have a mechanic on duty if they need to bring it back, etc. We just paid a $200 tow bill because a customer locked up a Muncie and didn;t have enough brains to go under and pop it back- he called in a panic that the tranny was blown and pick it up right away. A stupid couple in Wisconsin filed a claim with Better Business Bureau because they thought the oil was dirty and the wipers didn't work-we told them to bring it to us and we would fix-they chose BBB instead. These are old cars people, they aren't perfect and I tell people that. Our prices are on par with any other dealer, and in fact pretty much in line with NADA. I'm not just some punk that pimps cars- I'm 50. I presently own a '56 Blown Chevy that has won 2 firsts and a best of show this year. One of my cars, the '66 Pro Street Candy Brandywine Nova, was on all Popular Hot Rodding subscription cards for 2 years '97 and '98. I owned the Fathom Blue Chevelle for 9 years and a Black Cherry '70 for a year. I am one of the Chicago Wise Guys sponsors-member of IAAA and NADA Classic and Collectible advisory board-NHRA-member #19 of ACES, owner of www.nofearmotorsports.com (http://www.nofearmotorsports.com) and www.autosinfo.com.Point (http://www.autosinfo.com.Point) is, I live the hobby 24 hours a day- I don't know when the last time was that you were at NICAB in person to see the place, but it is 1000% different from the days in Buffalo Grove and at the pole barn by the house. And the quality of cars reflects that. Of course, when you sell a volume of cars, there will be problems- some can't be helped- but who do you know in the country that has a 100% trade in policy and really does it? That means you get exactly what you paid for the car on a trade as long as you trade up. I just did one today. Not all of our buyers are like many of you, with frequent flyer miles and the time to travel all over to save a few hundred on a car. You need to shut the computer down, walk outside, and update your information on the people you talk against. There is not one point you made in the thread that was the truth. And as to the hood pin, stripe, cowl debate-file this with the proper shade of color for the wheels-unsolvable. In truth, we all know the factory option was all three together, but that ANY combination came from the factory and that the dealers all had stripe kits and pin sets to even mix it up more. By the way, there is no deduction for any combination you have unless the judge is a fool. Enough said.
Randy

[Stefano]

O.K. Mr70, you are now the Anti-'70 Chevelle expert.

Whatever you do, please do not stop sharing your knowledge and passion for Muscle cars, especially because of this thread.

BTW, thanks for all your help past and present! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Reduece...I'm confused, has the car been Restored since the Magazine article ? In a earlier post I think you say it was restored before Tom Shaw did the article.

[redeuce]

Charlie
Thank you for recognizing the main point of my post. The car when we had it was a good frame up, but definitely not concourse. We never said it was. The whole selling point of the car was that it was rare in that it was a Monaco Orange, stripe delete,cowl delete,numbers matching LS6. In any collector's mind, that is a rare car. In a world where fake cars abound, we had a build sheet, window sticker,original bill of sale,original financing papers,along with the log of the first 10 years of ownership including every oil change, tune up, etc. along with all the receipts for any work done. We also had the receipts of the frame up that was done on it. I agree with Rick that at that time it was not a perfect resto. There were aftermarket parts on the car, BUT all the original parts were in boxes in the trunk. BEFORE the article was done, the new owner rerestored the car- including pulling the engine, stripping and repainting the undercarriage,doing the interior, and installing all the parts that were in the trunk. Shaw did the article AFTER this restoration, and I know no one around here has seen it, because the car hasn't left Florida since the resto. In my opinion, I didn't think it was fair to label this car as a poor restoration that was overpriced, floated around all the dealers, and wasn't really rare, it was just an orange LS6. Comments like this could hurt the owner's chances of selling the car, because people come here to gain information and help. Again, in no way do I question Rick's knowledge of Chevelles. However, I also have a fair knowledge and experience with Chevelles , and I can tell you as this car is today- it is a rare, nicely done, documented, investment quality car. I work every day- if anyone has questions or just wants to talk about cars, call me.
Randy

[Stefano]

Mr C. Lillard,
Since it has been documented with Spy photos that you have owned at least one LS6 Chevelle ,can you help clearify the Cowl delete and stripe delete "option" on a non cowl non stripe Chevelle?
I just keep getting more and more confused? /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

Randy,
Welcome to the board ,BTW. I have a question regarding the Monaco Orange LS6. Were the magazine photos before or after the final Restoration?

[JoeC]

redeuce, I cannot figure out what you are talking about on your description of this car. What does your documentation state? I am not a 70 Chevelle expert but as far as I know it cannot be "cowl delete" because CI was an option that needed to be ordered. It cannot be "stripe delete" because stripes were an option that needed to be ordered unless you ordered CI. If you ordered the CI option the car came with stirpes. I would have to see the trim tag info and build sheet but, the only nonstandard item I see with this car is the special paint. I have a special paint car so I wish SP did ad a great amount to the value but I do not see this reflected in the marketplace.

[Charley Lillard]

Stephano...I have owned a bunch of LS6's but any knowledge I gain I usually forget in about 2 weeks. I am absolutely not the person to give a opinion on this subject. My question about the car relates to the missing smog and the spark plug shields. Is that how the car sits now after the extensive Restoration or were those things corrected. If that is how the car sits now, then I would also question the correctness of the restoration. As forgetful as I am, I am sure that they all needed smog and do not need spark plug shields. It doesn't mean it isn't a neat car, just that it might need more attention if you wanted to bring it up to a Standard where you could comfortably have it Judged at a National level.

[redeuce]

Charlie
I talked to the owner today and he is removing the shields. The smog will have to be ordered. He is selling the car right now for 59,000, and in my mind with the market for LS6's as it is, that's a deal. I fully understand you all in here are going for concourse cars all the time. My point is, someone in here has to realize that the fact that it was so fully documented, has the original motor, and is a rare color and NON stripe car, I would not shy away from it just because it has heat shields that take 20 minutes to remove and needs a 15oo smog set up. Email me if any of you have interest.
Joe C.-How many Monaco Orange plain jane, original motor LS6 Chevelles have you seen? How many plain Jane Monaco Orange LS 6's were made? 10? 100? If you don't think that makes it a rare car, then OK. I think it's a rare car. I know the difference between non cowl and cowl delete- and you know exactly what I meant- I don't send my email to a proofer before I post it. The car is a Monaco Orange, NON COWL, NON STRIPE CAR.

[sixtiesmuscle]

O.K., Let's all hug now, and, respect that we ALL have our areas of expertise. No matter what this car NEEDS, it is a really neat & rare piece. It's certainly one that I would be proud to own. Peace!!

[hvychev]

I AGREE! LETS MOVE ON! The car in muscle car review is awesome! I would push my 70 LS5 Chevelle into Lake Michigan for that one! I have personally met both reduce and Mr70. They are BOTH very knowledgeable car guys. Both went out of their way to help me with inspecting or questions about my Chevelle with no gain other than helping another car guy.
When you get this many knowledgeable people in one place where you state your own opinions you are bound to sooner or later have a disagreement.

[Charley Lillard]

Redeuce...Thanks for the clarification. The no smog part or heat shields doesn't bother me. I know what it takes to replace it. I would prefer a Good set of Headers anyway. Even a Crummy set come to think of it. Debated doing that to a ZL1 but I might get hanged.

[sixtiesmuscle]

You'd get a big "atta boy" from me Charley. We all know the ZL1 heads couldn't breath with those stock manifolds. Go for it!!

[redeuce]

Well, we sure made a long thread here, and as always, information was exchanged that was maybe not known by everyone. Seriously, I found out today that he is selling the car. Call or email me and I'll pass his phone number along. If you can strike a deal, great. OK Now that's over, are you kicking me out or can I visit once in the while?

[Charley Lillard]

You can stay but you have to buy my 1980 Motion Camaro . /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

[redeuce]

I'll tell you what-go to www.nofearmotorsports.com (http://www.nofearmotorsports.com) and look at my '56. I wouldn't mind doing some trading for either a good Z or something interesting. Any trade would have to be an even or me getting money back. I don't have any money. On Saturdays and Sundays I take my wife to stranger's weddings for the free dinners.

[BBIGG BLOCK 396]

I don't think this car is a mystery car anymore!!Now I see how some of you guys can afford all the nice cars,going to strangers weddings to eat! I am looking in the paper now for this weekends weddings.Maybe I can save a buck or 2 and get my car finished.Of course its not a SUPER CAR,just a plain ole SS so I shouldn't have to save much to finish it.Some of you other guys post some money saving secrets like reduece,it might help some others out /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

Bobby

[Stefano]

Hey Charley, I heard somewhere that GM didn't even bother trying to design new exhaust manifolds for the ZL1 as no one could possibly ever consider running one that way.

I think it was in a Kum-by-ya verse lead by SixtiesMuscle /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

I just lost my desire to keep the smog set up and stock manifolds when a Hugger Orange 1969 Camaro with ZL1 emblems on the fenders and a Blue small block stoker Nova humiliated me during a stop light confrontation just recently.

I did however take out my frustration on a late Model 5.0 Mustang and 396 Chevelle on the way back home.

I also have considered when my LS6 is finally framed off (when ever I can find the $, and Rick Nelson can find the time...) doing a "day two" type retoration (headers, maybe a set of Cragers, an actual oil pressure gauge, etc). I really wonder why we don't see more cars done this way. It allows you to enjoy your car, get better performance, and still keep the value, since you hang onto the original dated parts. I get kinda tired of going to car shows and seeing people argue over what is technically correct anyway.

[Chevy454]

Pete's ZL-1 seems to do very well through the stock, untouched manifolds! I would call low 12s on Polyglass and through manifolds doing "pretty damn well"/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif! Heck, his yellow COPO Chevelle ran 12.80s(?) with the stock manifolds and working smog setup!

You guys should make a pilgrimage to the Pure Stock Drags sometime...these cars actually WILL run through the stock exhaust setup...

[68l30]

Rob,your right about Pete's car.I have some video of it at Norwalk ( in the box lighting the tires ) and the sound is incredible......

Steve

[Stefano]

You Pure Stock Drag Super Car guys are the exception which proves the rule.

What COPO Pete and a few others have been able to accomplish is truely inspiring /ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif

[Charley Lillard]

And why is he running Polyglas on a 69 ZL1 ? I have yet to find a orig. Polyglas tire on a 69 Camaro. 12's are pretty neat with exhaust manifolds but I hate to think about the time spent getting the car to the point where it does that.

[COPO PETE]

/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif I really don't understand why people think it takes a lot of time to get a car in the 12's. Anycar that goes 108 mph is capable of 12's. My Chevelle, which still had the spiral shocks on it, original drivtrain, was in the 12's by the third time to the track. My orange Camaro was in the 12's by the second time to the track, and my white Camaro has seen nothing but 12's. Good exhaust and gearing is the ticket, but valve lash, timing and carb adjustments are very important. Driving is half the battle. I would do John Force burnouts all the way down the track if not careful. Your ass has to feel the rear tires, and learn to lift the foot ever so slightly and get back in it at the right time! When Jimmy and I were at a track once with a gentleman that was having troubles getting his ZL-1 to do the #'s, we dicked with it for 40 minutes for him..... picked up 8 mph and half a second. Not much time spent there!
Peter

I would agree....I know from personal experience that really any of the solid lifter cars are legitimate 12 sec rides off the showroom floor. The problems I think tend to be most people don't keep their cars properly tuned (let's face it a lot of these cars are rarely driven), and a lack of 1/4 mile driving skills. Also gearing and carb jetting are important as well...

[Chevy454]

Well said, Pete. Our Camaro has been flirting with 108 mph for a while now, and we just can't seem to get over the hump. A couple of high 107s at Stanton, but nothing better. Maybe the new exhaust will help. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Believe me, fellas. If I can get a car in the 12s, then anyone can do it! Our Camaro went consistent 13.20s (and I mean bracket car consistent) with the tired engine the first year at Stanton, but the mph was down at around 104. With a decent exhaust, and a clue as to what we were doing, I think 12s would have happened.

[whitetop]

Hello Greg
You will be seeing more of the "Day Two" trend in the future. The Mopar Nationals has a nostalgia class for cars with period correct speed equipment and participation has been just about doubling every year. People are tired of having their red Chevelle next to 12 identical ones at a show. I buy and sell old speed parts and the stuff from the late '60's and early '70's is being gobbled up. People restored their cars 4-8 years ago and do not want to sell them but want something new. However, they don't want to put 17" polished torq thrust on them. Day Two gives them a challenge of hunting for the old parts just like looking for an OEM date coded part. Plus it's how most of them remember how the cars ACTUALLY looked from their youth.
Dave

[SS427]

Dave,
I could not agree more. I have seen a big increase in requests to "add" on a few items to the restoration such as Cragers, headers and Sun Tachs. I think restorations have excelled over the years and have gotten to a point where one car doesn't really stand out from the rest anymore. This has given people a new opportunity to venture down another avenue such as "day 2" cars. I recently located an old drag car that was still wearing all it's original '70's racing garb from the cool can to the welded on ladder bars and axel tubes. Rather that restore the car to original, I felt this would make a great day 2 car but in it's drag clothes instead of street clothes and possibly even racing the car complete with original sponsor decals.

I too must admit that searching out these old racing parts has put a lot of the "fun" back into the project somewhat like the good ole days walking through bone yards and locating that elusive part.
Rick

I agree 100%..I think the hunting up of these older speed parts can be just as rewarding as finding a dated set of manifolds. I remember back in the late '80's talking to guys that were spending ridiculous amounts of money restoring some of the old race cars back to showroom condition, and thinking it really didn't take that much effort in some cases to open a catalog and order a complete car (especially in the case of the Camaro...). I applaud guys like Bill Porterfield that in my mind made it cool to have a rare car that wasn't showroom original. I think the "day 2" trend will grow, especially as more people realize how fun it is, and how much more the cars can be driven. I would suspect that shows will start to include the catagory as well.

[redeuce]

You are correct citing the popularity of the day 2. And kudos to all for recognizing the importance of these cars in the hobby. Don't forget that many restos that were done in the late 80's and early 90's were limited in availability of nos and oem parts. There was no Ebay and most catalogues were limited. A perfect example-Mopars have realized the biggest jump in value over the last five years- 12,000 B Bodies are now 20,000 and E Bodies are through the roof.
The primary reason for this is the 3 inch thick Year One catalogue, Legendary Interiors, and Just Dashes. Also, the typical buying public is now looking for a turn key car in the 15,000 to 20,000 bracket. Unfortunately, that rules out a concourse correct car in most cases. As an interesting side note, after examining the receipts, we discovered the Orange LS6 in the mid 70's had a hang on AC unit put on by the owner. We almost hung one back on just because that was how the original owner had the car set up.

[hvychev]

I to think "day two" cars are going to be the thing. It makes your car a lot more fun to drive and sets it apart from the rest I recently added to my stock appearing Chevelle SS LS5 454 a set of Crager SS's, sun super tach, Richmond 3.73 gear, Headman headers, and vintage speed part decals to the side windows. I probably drive my car harder and a lot more that 90% of most muscle car owners considering I still have the original drive train in my car. Before I would never dream of doing this to thiss type of car. 8,000 miles since 3/01! /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

[Rat_Pack]

Dave, you and I both share the same outlook on the "day two" cars. I was wondering how that was doing at the Mopar Nationals. Sounds like it was a great idea and one that our Camaro club has been kicking around for a while. We had about 5 or 6 cars show up last year that were done exactly that way and we ended up splitting the 67-9 modified class into two categories. Those cars could not compete against a "fully" modified car with aftermarket suspension, brakes, 18" billet wheels, etc. Tim Lopata showed up with a bone stock base 69 Camaro with Cragar S/S wheels and Goodyear Polyglas tires!..................RatPack.................

What does everyone else think about a Nostalgia Class?..............

[whitetop]

Rat Pack

I've talked with 4-5 guys over the last year who are building cars for the Mopar Nats Nostalgia class. Aluminum slots are in big demand, early '70's Direct Connection stuff, finned valve covers, early Edelbrock/Weiand intakes, Sun gauges etc. I plan on going there this year to check it out.
The trend within Day Two that I have been noticing lately is the use of more correct parts. In the past guys would be happy with a chrome Autogage tach on the steering column and call it the nostalgic look or non correct Lakewood bars from the Jegs/Summit catalog. Now they are looking for the early style "long tail" Lakewood bars, M/T B/B Valve covers with the 427 script etc. When people are calling they are asking for very specific parts.

For you people not sure what parts to use check out the old mags or catalogs. Here is Dave's shortlist of what NOT to
use on your Day Two mobile:
1. Fuzzy dice, Halibrand wheels, polished torq thrust, anything Moon (including decals, tachs, valve covers etc Moon was a '50's very early '60's deal and was negated to a "has been" company status by the late '60's), Chrome VDO or Autogage tach on the steering column, Sun Super Tach II, Suntune or Sun Pro gauges, dice valve stems, Clay Smith woodpecker decals, any year NHRA event repo participant decals, weenie size tires on the rear, mismatch of modern day and oldstyle parts, radial tires... espcialy when they say Toyo, Michelin etc on them, anything blue anodized, modern day Grant steering wheels that try to look like the old style Grant wheels but with the "modern touch", lowered cars...grow some balls and put the cars back up where they should be.. a little higher than stock, front and rear is even better yet (Mark Hassett's '69 Chevelle has the right stance), any chrome dress-up item from the latest GM performance parts catalog -especially if it has a chevy bow tie emblem on it.

Ratpack, do you have any more to add??
Dave

I think if more national clubs and shows accepted the "day 2" car,there would probably be an even greater interest. I sometimes wonder with the increased interest in our hobby, and subsequently the increased cost of it why more people don't look to "day 2" cars as a good alternative. It makes me wonder sometimes about the rational about buying dated parts off the internet or shows, and paying outrageous prices then finding out that they are re-stamps anyway.

[69rsss350]

I feel the need to express an opinion here...
Original is only original once, right? If a car has the original motor, tranny, rear end but all new fenders, floor pans, trunk pan, interior, quarters, paint, etc. Is it original? If a car has all the original body parts but a NOM motor is it less valuable? If a person has a heart transplant isn't he the same person? My feeling is that if you have a REAL car it should matter less as to whether all the parts are original but more that it reflects that nostalgia that we bought them for in the first place. I know I was a senior in high school when my car was built and that means more to me than whether it has the original engine or not. I spend hours with this car that I don't even consider spending with my late model Suburban. I sell used cars for a living and bought a brand new 98 C-5 Corvette that was a truly awesome car and sold it six months later for a small profit cause it was a depreciating asset. The endless pursuit of originality is really a fruitless effort cause it still won't be "original". I believe that sometimes we as the enthusiasts create some of the things we complain about. For example... replaced VINS and cowl tags, bogus or reproduced documentation, restamped components, people selling cars as "numbers matching" when they truly aren't, etc. To me a "real" classic car that is restored to bring back the age to those of us that appreciate them is a blessing and should be considered as such. I have no problem with and agree that the best representations of these cars should bring a premium and also realize that the almighty dollar is what drives the fakes and cheats. Bottom line is, I guess, that I, personally, don't care whether that "Mystery Chevelle" has its original smog equipment or heat shields over the spark plugs or whatever, it is an awesome piece of classic machinery that ain't gonna be reproduced! Same way I feel about my Camaro and all you other guys cars. I wish as a prerequisite of registration evryone had to post pictures of their cars. I would love to see them!!!!!! Thanks for letting me vent.

[redeuce]

Great post 69. That's why there is popularity in all categories- unrestored original, restored original, modified, custom, pro street, and race car. A butt for every seat. Now if the judged shows would adopt a standard class breakdown, it would prevent a lot of disgruntled car owners. My car is a street driven, 785 hp, blown, fully tubbed,rollcage, etc. and sometimes is competing in a "Modified 1900-1960" class that throws in everything that is not stock. A basically stock car with just a transplant engine and chrome wheels, a custom car, race car, and pro street all compete against each other.

[69rsss350]

I agree that there needs to be some kind of consistency in the judged car shows and i think Super Chevy is one of the best of doing that, however even they will put you in street class if you have the wrong valve covers. Seems ridiculous for a basically stock car to have to compete with a truly custom car cause it has bright valve covers doesn't it? Or for your car to compete against street rods?

[T Billigen]

I also think Super Chevy does a pretty good job at judging, they have certain guide lines that they must follow or there would be chaos when putting cars in classes, when they say stock they mean it, if you have the wrong wheels or even an aftermarket tach you will be in a modified class. There has been much discussion on here about the Yenko cars being put in street class, I don't totally agree with there reasoning, but they do have a point on what and what did not come from the factory. It still boils down to "attention to detail" I have competed in the street class with a Yenko Chevelle and still won first place, so a lot of fancy chrome and wild paint jobs don't always win!

[Jeff H]

That's the way I'm having my 69 JL8 restored, with the crossram, Stahl road race headers, radio delete, heater delete, Minilites, Transistor Ignition, fiberglass GM crossram hood. Basically the way you could equip a car in 69 to go raod racing. That's what the JL8 option was all about. I just wish it didn't cost so much to do this project!

[L78Impala]

Redeuce,
What kind of shape are those heat shields in? does the owner want to sell them? Let me know.
"[email protected]"

[68l30]

Dave,great list!My pet peeves are new stereos and aftermarket shifters.How about some period pieces here as well.I hate to see a mint dash hacked for a full face stereo.I remember running a old Mr.Gasket(before Hurst) Verti-Gate shifter on the street.Ouch! I can still feel the pain in my fingers from pulling up to constantly down shift.I know auto shifters were pretty much non existant in the late 60's early 70's..What about those Hi-Jackers?Now those I don't miss either..........

Steve

[Rat_Pack]

whitetop, are you going to the Mopar Nat's in a few weeks? Can you check out this Nostalgia class and see if the cars are being "classified" correctly by the judges? The only drawback to having a class like this is whether you could find at least two judges per show that could correctly judge the cars. Most clubs or show promoters do not have anyone that has the knowledge like you to know if an item was available at a certain period in time. What do you think? Maybe only allow cars manufactured up to a certain year say 1974 or 75? There is another aspect also, safety issues with tires, shocks, seat belts, and other items. I would not want to see a guy come rolling into a show on a set of 30 year old tires, because they are not reproduced, and then have a sidewall give way...........................RatPack............. ........

Maybe lets start a new thread on this subject................

[qwerty]

I happen to own the mystery car you guys seem to be such experts on. It's true the heat sheilds are not correct, and no I did not spend the money on replacing the missing smog equipment, but the car is in new condition mechanically and cosmetically and aside from the minor details you anal retentive concourse types are complaining about the car is mostly correct. I did not buy or restore the car to impress those of you that go to shows and then complain about everyones cars, when 9 out of 10 times the crap in your garage sucks even worse. I bought the car because I appreciated it for what it was and the fact that is wasn't like every other LS6 out there.

The car was never represented as a concours car in the article or otherwise. It is driven reguarly and as far as I can tell, nobody out there has one that is like it. The docs to back up the history of the car are impecable and undisputable.

As far as the "mystery" part of the magazine article, you guys need to lighten up. Tom Shaw asked me to be in the magazine because of a last minute no show of a different car and needed something out of the ordinary to fill in for a factory freaks theme. As far as the true color, the notes on the build sheet say 926-99616 Orange acrylic Laquer so you tell me.

As far as the price I am asking for the car, if you saw the documentation, the amount of new parts on the car the spotless undercarage and engine compartment,the new wiring , interior, dash etc. and put it next to a lot of the junk that I see out there for sale everyday,I don't think I'm to far out of line. Before you start running down someones car based on it's condition you should really know all the facts.

Randy and NICAB have sold me multiple cars and they have been great to deal with. As for the condition of the car as it "drifted around" until it was pawned off on me, you are right that it was a ratty restoration, but if you reread the article it clearly does state that when I got it from NICAB it needed some work.

Finally, just to let you know, I'm not some lightweight idiot that Tony and Randy took for a ride. I have owned dozens of cars over the years and currently have a Alpine White 70 Hemi Superbird 4 speed console car with 16k miles that has a complete matching numbers drivetrain, carbs, starter, both jacks etc.and is 99.9% original restored and has complete paperwork. So you concours guys that will be at the Mopar Nats in columbus in a couple of weeks can come see it under the tent. If it makes you feel better, you can tell me how bad my Chevelle is to my face and I'll be happy to show you my Superbird and pictures of my MSO Earnhart Camaro with 77 miles and a signed dash when your done.

For those of you that were defending my car or apreciating it for what it is, and you know who you are... thanks.
Doug Young

[69rsss350]

Well said, Doug! Glad you came to speak for yourself and your car!

[redeuce]

Good to hear from you Doug! If I had the money I'd buy it. I have learned that in here it either has to be absolutely correct or what they SAY is correct. I hate to step in the poop again gentleman, but to the uninformed person that is already calling Moon parts off because Moon was a has been since the early sixties obviously hasn't gone to www.mooneyes.com (http://www.mooneyes.com) or ordered from their 76 page catalog. I have one if you want to borrow it. There have been changes in the hierarchy of the company over the years, but they are alive and kicking. If you have a question, email Dean Moon at [email protected]. By the way, they have developed a new custom wheel specifically for the '69 Camaro. Boys, boys, please research a little more before stepping up to the pulpit. We just talked about how nice a day 2 car would be, and you are already getting the "correct" list going-and again knocking a person or company without fact. Hey, you regular guys, call Dean- he'll tell you what is correct or not and what was available in the sixties or seventies. That might be a more accurate way to do it. Moon made valve covers, guages, etc. in that era.

[hvychev]

oh no.

We are'nt going to rehash this whole "mystery Chevelle"
NIGHTMARE again are we?

What happened to the nice "day 2" subject?

[Fhakya]

Touchª on the response Doug! Enjoying these cars it paramount to none. It's a small miracle that there are so many examples that eluded molestation. Enjoy your cars and revell in the attention that they bring. After all, isn't that why we all wanted them in the 1st place (chicks dig 'em...high school mentality)???. With the exception that I've been a gearhead since like age 9.....the attention to my hobby has kept me trying to build/acquire better.
-Mark
/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

[Keith Tedford]

I guess the factory correct restoration guys wouldn't be impressed with me either. Our '69 300 Deluxe SS396 L78 Chevelle has a Hurst 4 speed shifter, Headers, Stewart-Warner tach and gauges and T/A radials. This is the way the original owner set the car up in '69 and that's the way it will stay. The car won a people's choice award at a show a couple of weeks ago. But then what do people know. When finished, our COPO Chevelle, which I bought new in '69, will also have the headers, Hurst shifter and radial tires. The F-70 Uniroyals, smog pump and manifolds can stay on the shelf for the next owner. I guess I've always been a day 2 guy. In 5 years we have put over 14,000 miles on our 396 car. Included in the mileage were trips to Maple Grove and Woodward. I'd say we are getting full enjoyment out of our cars. Everyone does something different and that's what makes the old car business so interesting.

[whitetop]

Redeuce
UNIFORMED? I'm not the one uniformed. I have been into Day Two since the '70's. I have never left. I've read just about every single Hot Rod type car mag from the era and have kept notes on what was correct, when parts were introduced etc. It is my obsession-Hot Rodding from '68-'75. I'm not cutting down Moon I'm just saying by running Moon parts on your musclecarcar you are not correct for the era. That is a fact. Of course people can run what they like. Moon was not it's former self by the late '60's and was not making anything for the musclecar set at that time for the most part-that guys would be interested in. Yes I know they were still makin some fuel tanks, gauges etc. Their parts were already dated in the late '60's/'70's and guys ,just like today, wanted to run the newest/latest parts. The company was for most part stagnet throught the '70's and 1980's with 1-2 employees and producing not much of anything when a young finacier from Japan bought the company and revived it in the late '80's early '90's. The Japanese are big into America's '50's stuff and were the ones credited with reviving the company. They actually have Moon stores throughout Japan. I know they have a 76 page catalog but 99.9% of the stuff in it is geared for a 1950's style Hot Rod ('32 Ford etc) or Customs not a musclecar. The huge trend of building '50's style Hot Rods brought back the popularity of Moon in Japan and the US over the last 10 years or so-hence the 76 page catalog. Also alot of the stuff in today's catalog was not even produced back in the '50's or '60's by Moon. They are slapping the mooneyes decal on everthing even if it was never produced back then-many of the items are new parts developed over the last 5-6 years.
The '69 camaro steering wheel you are touting is a prime example.
Finally, I went to the website saw nothing but early '60's rails, Ed Roth type stuff, and a bunch of early style '50's Hot Rods and Customs.
Dave

[68l30]

I'm definatly in favor of the "Day Two" concept.I believe the term may be misleading to some.I feel a "Day Two" ride is day two 1965 or 1969 or whenever.Day two is not 2002 retro speed parts.The current companies build some great parts,much like todays cars.But they are not 60's cars or parts.I like to use the Torq Thrust wheel as a example.It is a nice wheel for 2000 but it is just that.It is different from the 1965 wheel.It is a retro piece like the new 16" or 17" wheel for todays Camaro's and Mustangs.I feel a "Day Two" car IS a restoration,a numbers match resto if you excuse the term.On a hot rod or modified car you can put on anything and everything,and more power to you.I feel what they want to achieve is another structured class or type of car much like a concourse restoration.Please feel free to build and drive whatever you want,just don't belittle those who choose a different path.We all have a few loose screws being in this hobby anyway.Just keep the screwdrivers handy and don't completly loose it........

Steve

[Stefano]

Keith,
You mentioned "the next owner" for your COPO Chevelle. Where does the line start? /ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif

[redeuce]

Good point on the history of Moon, White Top. As you see in my post, I alluded to the change in hierarchy. However, although they have always been "Ratfink" oriented, they made rear end covers, valve covers, tachs, guages, etc. in the sixties and seventies that ended up on MANY muscle cars. I don't give a rat's behind about how popular they are, that's a judgement call- their parts were available, so to say don't use those parts is not correct. If you posted that you didn't like Moon parts so don't use them, I wouldn't have said boo. You incorrectly listed Moon parts as already on the poop list for day 2 and that is false.

[whitetop]

Redeuce
I have nothing against Moon parts. I don't care what you guys decide to run. Just feel they do not accurately represent what guys were running on their musclecars back then. Street Rods yes however. I can accurately say I have read just about every hot rod type of publication between '68-'75. Never have I seen guys run Moon parts on their musclecars. Not to say that it did not happen sometime, somewhere.

There are two schools of thought regarding Day Two that Steve alluded to:. Some guys are happy running non correct retro parts and are just happy with that "close enough" look. The second group, which I happen to belong, will only use correct speed parts from the era. You also have to look at the usage of the particular part-how well does it represent the era. Faria tachs were avaialble back then but I would never run one. I do not feel that part is representative from the era.

"Daves List" was for the guy that wants to subscribe to the second group. Some of the blatent errors I have seen so to speak. It may also have hinted at some of my pet peeves which I admit.
Dave

[Keith Tedford]

I lived the muscle car era of the late sixties. I think Moon got buried under the full page ads of GM, Kelsey-Hayes, ET mags, Edlebrock, Gratiot and the like. In front of me is an August '69 Hot Rod magazine. Moon has one 2" X 4" ad for and aluminum spoiler. True, much of what they sold applied to hotrods and '50s cars but the huge advertising budgets of others left them behind. I know of no one in our area that carried a line of Moon parts. They definitely weren't a big player in the musclecar circles, at least in our area. It is nice to see companies like this making such a nice come back with the hotrod set. Just another fun part of the old car world.

[whitetop]

Hello Keith
Another example of this is Mallory vs. Accel. Mallory was the key player in the '50's and '60's. These were the pieces to run. Along came Echlin's line of Accel components in late '69 and cleaned Mallory's clock in the '70's because of their adverstising budget. Accel had full page color ads in what seemed like every mag, every month starting in '70. Accel's 3000 series distributor was a very high quality, competition distributor though and Accel Super Coil really got them started.
It's also should be noted that MSD started to clean Accel's clock in the mid '80's and still does so today. What goes around comes around.
dave

[JChlupsa]

You mean to say some of the old stuff I have at my dads place (couple Accel dual point/ansen sprints and old Lakewood bars) that I used to run in the 69-72 time frame are worth something again. I need to get back home and sort through what I have stored at his place.

[redeuce]

Actually, you make a pretty good point. I'm just hurt because I had Moon tach and guages in a '69 Chevelle back then. Hmmm, I also bought a bunch of stuff from Grand Automotive and look where they are now. Maybe I should rethink my suppliers. Seriously though, thanks for acknowledging the fact that there are two day 2 types emerging. One period correct and one just for grins.
Randy

[whitetop]

Jeff (Hawaiian Camaro)
I'll take them!! Do you remember the fathom blue '69 Nova SS from the Chicago area in the '71-'72 era. Car had tunnel rammed 427, chrome straight axle, Cragars, Grumpy lump hood scoop. Car was raised all around. Was on the cover of PHR in '71 or '72. I talked with the owner of the car last year on the phone-he still has it and sent me some pics. His name is Mark Vogle I believe.


Steve (68130) I know what you mean about the Mr. G Vertical Gate-have one in my Mustang. A guy near my hometown took his car to the Street Machine Nat's in Indy back in the '70's. Due to tunnel ram and 4:88 gears and slicks they took the back roads as much as possible from Wheeling W.Va. By the time he got home his 2 fingers were beat to heck and in much pain. Said the look of one of those shifter still gives him the shivers.

[JChlupsa]

The Blue Nova rings a bell but age is getting the best of me for names. I do know us outside of the windy city had some good run ins with the rides from the city along with those from North of us in the Beloit WS area. We used to (on the Camaros) take out the tail lamps and turn them around so the lights were reversed and that would let us know if the Camaro in front of us was one from Freeport. I still have a Accel dual point that the company gave me as a replacement still in the box along with some 15" GOLD tint Ansen Sprints that came off a neighbors yellow 68 Camaro. thats the car i can blame that Camaro for what i have now. Loved those days when you could go downtown and sit there with the WildFire and Jade Gernada Camaros parked next to a Fathom Green Yenko Camaro which was next to a 69 Hemi powered Chevelle. Come to think of it the rear end on that Chevelle was nmine. wonder where it is now. Still have a new V-Gate shifter and an old 4-71 (yes 4-71 from Dyers) packed away also. cant wait now until I get back there in Sept to get things organized and packed up for Calif and hawaii

[redeuce]

Contact me when you get back. I'd like to buy the Verti-Gate and the blower.

[Keith Tedford]

The August '69 Hot Rod Magazine has a full page add for Kelsey-Hayes mag wheels featuring their 20 spoke cast wheel. I saw a set of these same wheels on a car at the local cruise night last night. Better dig the old stuff out. Recycle time.