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BrianSS396
11-24-2001, 06:22 PM
Hello, I have a question regarding Protect-O-Plates. Is there any chance of a mis-stamp? The engine code on my 69 SS 396 comes up to be a 307! The carburater code denotes a Holly carb. The rear end code is KK, 4:10 posi, which still resides in the car. I can list the codes on the P-O-P if anyone is interested. Thanks!

Brian
69 SS396 Chevelle project
2000 Z28 mid 11's @ 116 Mph

Rat_Pack
11-24-2001, 09:36 PM
Brian, I have seen some incorrectly stamped POP's. It would great to see the engine numbers and the transmission numbers from the POP on your Chevelle............Thanks, RatPack...............

COPO
11-24-2001, 11:57 PM
When was the POP actually stamped? I know the owners name and address was stamped at delivery, but when and where was the metal plate stamped? If it was stamped at the dealer, were they provided the information to stamp it or did a technician have to crawl under the car to get the codes?

Keith Tedford
11-25-2001, 02:49 AM
The KK 4:10 rearend is a 12 bolt The only big block with a Holley and a KK rearend was an L78, at least in '69.

BrianSS396
11-25-2001, 12:54 PM
Ok, here goes ....
136379B388055 H
TO528DC KK0602B 6
P9D26 133 1

It was sold at Ted Ewald Chevrolet in Grosse Point Michigan. Craig Hartsig bought the car on 6/30/69.
When I bought the car the original engine and trans were long gone. It came with a 73 Muncie, no engine (previous owner had a 327 in it) and the original 12 bolt is still in the car. The tach in cluster turns yellow at about 5700 and redlines at 6000. The only unique option it has is a rear window defrost. Its a triple black bucket seat/console car. Someday I hope to get it put back togethor http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif. Thanks!

I have no idea when it was actually stamped, how would I find out?

JoeC
11-25-2001, 02:39 PM
What is the build date on your trim tag? Should be about 06B? What does the car have for a fuel line, brakes, and radiator lenth? The late cars had a 3 letter engine code when they changed to the 402 but that doesn't help you because the "C" would be the first letter.

Rat_Pack
11-25-2001, 03:13 PM
Brian, check the spacing on the numbers 133 1. These decode out to be a ps, pb, am radio, and ac car. Something is not right with the Holley carb stamping shown.............RatPack..............

Denis
11-25-2001, 07:51 PM
Here it the same POP, using a fixed-spaced font:

<FONT face="courier">
-------------------136379B388055--H
TO528DC------------KK0602B--------6
P9D26---------------133-----------1

Vehicle Identification #: 136379B388055

Carburetor Source: H
Holley

Engine #: T0528DC
Tonawanda 5/28/69 "307" w/ Powerglide

Rear axle #: KK0602B
Chevelle
4.10 Posi
6/2/69
Buffalo

Vehicle Build month: 6
June 1969

Transmission #: P9D26
4-spd Muncie 4/26/69

Options: -133---
Manual steering
Power brakes (J50)
AM radio (U63)
Disc brake (J52)
No A/C
No power windows
No power seat
</FONT f>

COPO
11-25-2001, 08:02 PM
So.....engine coded 307 w/powerglide, plus a 4 speed muncie. Does that make it an 8 speed? http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif Plus the holley and 4.10 12-bolt rear. Some serious mis-stamping!

BrianSS396
11-25-2001, 08:15 PM
Thank you Denis. I had looked up as much as I could with a friend at a GM parts department on the old Microfish. That is how we came up with the odd engine code.
Hmmmm, anyone know where I can get some
SS 307 emblems http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif
PS what does the "1" under the 6 indicate?

[Edited by BrianSS396 (11-25-2001 at 03:15 PM).]

Denis
11-25-2001, 08:17 PM
The "1" under the "6" is a Chevrolet trademark, I think.

Belair62
11-25-2001, 09:59 PM
Denis,how does the 133 break down to all those options ?

Denis
11-25-2001, 10:32 PM
Belair62:

Chevy454
11-25-2001, 11:42 PM
EXCELLENT info Denis! And good job on the formatting for that table! Looks good, and easy to read! http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

JoeC
11-25-2001, 11:53 PM
On the right side the imprint under the "6" is a Chevy bowtie trade mark not a "1". Not sure of all years but I believe it is for a 1969 POP. Probably done to make forgery more difficult.

COPO PETE
11-26-2001, 12:05 AM
I've got the "little bowtie" on my '70 POP for my COPO Nova as well.
Peter

MikeA
11-26-2001, 01:26 AM
Great info! What is a good source for decoding P-O-Ps? Does the "Chevrolet by the Numbers" books give you the necessary information?

Mike

Denis
11-26-2001, 01:42 AM
I use an old circa-1972 GM master parts manual. The first few pages cover decoding quite exhaustively.

The rest I'm making up as I go along http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

BrianSS396
11-26-2001, 05:04 AM
Joe, the build date is indeed 06B. It has 3/8ths fuel line and power disks on the front. I did not get a radiator with the car.
Rat Pack, I spaced out the numbers just like on the POP but it doesnt reflect that in the actual post. Maybe if I try this way
-------------------136379B388055--H
TO528DC------------KK0602B--------6
P9D26---------------133-----------1

It does have the original AM radio. It definately DOES NOT have A/C. It has power steering but I am almost positive the guy I bought the car from added it, I dont think it had it originally. Thanks so much for your help so far, maybe I can get inspired to actually finish this thing!!!

Kurt S
11-26-2001, 10:18 PM
The assembly manual has some POP info in it too.
The engine and trans data was written on a master broadcast sheet and then keyed in (VIN was downloaded via computer) and the POP printed out at the end of the line.
I've seen many POP errors, but most of the time with one digit, not both. I assume your original engine code was JD, the date looks fine.

COPO
11-26-2001, 11:17 PM
So Kurt, you are saying the POP was stamped on the assembly line and it was shipped w/the car, then the owners name, address, and delivery date was added at the dealer? Was the plate shipped loose in the glove box or attached to the warranty booklet?

Stefano
11-27-2001, 12:17 AM
Brian,
Yes,There is a chance of a factory inncorrect protecto plate. The car and equipment info. was stamped by GM not the Dealership.
The dealer would print a "tape" with the purchasers name and add this tape to the protecto plate which was glued to the warranty booklet.
The tape was a mirror image to be used along with GM's info to transfer on to a service invioce or repair order.
Incorrect protecto plates could be corrected through the Dealer's respective Zone office.

[Edited by Stefano (11-26-2001 at 07:17 PM).]

Stefano
11-27-2001, 12:30 AM
Brian,
Protecto plates have been "cloned" stamped by non factory entities for many years. They are still made to order today.
It is not a criminal offence to add or change items on a new protecto plate.
The info provided on the protecto plate will give you a head start on documenting your car and establishing a pedigree.

Belair62
11-27-2001, 01:39 AM
How will a cloned P-O-P give you a headstart on documenting or finding a pedigree ?

Stefano
11-27-2001, 02:28 AM
I was refering to Brain's protecto plate. I do not know if it is original or not. The info provides, Selling Dealer,customer/ address. Just this info alone provides direction on documenting the vehicle.
1) Does the dealership still exist??
Some dealerships still have original
documents.
2) Is the original owner still alive and
in the area? What about heirs,
relatives, ect.
3) An L-78 4 speed with 4:10 and no
power steering was probably not used
as a local taxi cab. Look to see which
race tracks are in the area and still
open and seek info from them.

An original protecto plate with an incorrect engine code may provide a great head start!

Belair62
11-27-2001, 03:22 AM
Are the re-popped P-O-P's distinguishable from originals ??? I hope so...

Stefano
11-27-2001, 03:41 AM
We live in a society which maintains the technology and ability to clone animals and human embryos. Do you still wonder if indistinguishable protecto plate clones are a reality?

Belair62
11-27-2001, 04:25 AM
I would hope there is a sharp eye out there that can tell a real from a fake...otherwise there is no real value to a POP right ? There are fake build sheets,cowl tags and POP's.....fonts,spacing,codes or something.

Stefano
11-27-2001, 04:46 AM
There is faux everything in the market place.

For instance; an LS6 Chevelle rag top, that started life asa 6 clyinder Pontiac Lemans hardtop. It has all of the paperwork; Even two Build sheets, protecto plate and yes all numbers match.

It has everything but a chain of ownership documenting the car!

If a complete car can be cloned and pass the scrutiny of National Show Judges, then certainly a protecto plate can be fauxed 100%

Charley Lillard
11-27-2001, 04:58 AM
Stefano...Which LS6 Rag is this so that I will know to avoid it ?

Kurt S
11-27-2001, 06:20 AM
The POP was attached to the warranty book by the plant. They couldn't depend on all the dealers to do that. http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

Stefano
11-27-2001, 06:41 AM
Kurt,
You are correct, the protecto plates were glued to the warranty booklets by GM not the dealers. This is what I was trying to state, in my ramblings. Sorry for the confusion.

COPO
11-27-2001, 10:09 AM
Charley, perhaps it was the red one!

Mr70
11-27-2001, 01:04 PM
There was a Red LS-6 Convertible for sale at NIAB recently.I was astounded by the phonyness of this car.It had all the documents forged to look original.Someone really paid to much for it as I heard it went for 80K last year.I have a copy of the buildsheet and P-O-P.Looks like a second grader made it.

JoeC
11-27-2001, 01:25 PM
If it has the little Chevy bowtie on it, a repopped POP is illegal use of the GM trademark unless it is done under license of GM Restoration Parts or a GM licensed dealer.

Belair62
11-27-2001, 10:52 PM
Has anyone seen a known phony POP and does it have the bowtie on it ? I bet they are perfect copies...figures...now all POP's will be suspect.

BrianSS396
11-27-2001, 11:18 PM
I am 100% positive my POP is original, its still attached to the warranty card. It does have the "tape" with the buyers info on it as well. Thanks so much to everyone for the info, now why dont ya all come over and help me put this thing back togethor http://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/laugh.gif

[Edited by BrianSS396 (11-27-2001 at 06:18 PM).]

SuperNovaSS
11-29-2001, 09:08 AM
The repro trim tags can be seen at <A HREF="http://www.trimtags.com

I" TARGET=_blank>www.trimtags.com

I</A> couldn't find a picture of a POP. I don't know how a place like this can stay in business. It seems to me that they are assisting fraud. I know this place has been in business awhile; it seems to me that they would be closed for something by now. It must be illegal. I wish everybody was honest, it would make the hobby a lot more fun. Any opinions?


Jason

SuperNovaSS
11-29-2001, 08:11 PM
It's amazing, on the website they don't even try to sidestep the "numbers matching issue." They basically say, this will make your car number matching. They also say they won't change the body style on the trim tag. But I don't think they would have a problem putting X-codes, or option codes for a 67. This is all that really matters for Camaros and many other GM cars. I wouldn't be surprized if there are a couple 67' Z convertibles floating around thanks to this place. I have heard from many people that these GM documents don't exist. I sure hope they do. It will expose a lot of cars that have been misrepresented. I hope none of you guys have ended up with these cars, or god forbid, built them!


Jason

[Edited by SuperNovaSS (11-29-2001 at 03:11 PM).]

Belair62
11-29-2001, 09:05 PM
Anyone have any thoughts on what would happen to the Chevrolet collector car market should those records ever be found or made available ?

SuperNovaSS
11-29-2001, 10:10 PM
I think it would be much like the Pontiac market. Real cars will be worth a lot more and fake ones will obviously be worth a lot less. I also think that a lot more cars will be found. People that own cars that they consider to be a plain jane may turn out to be more than they thought. But, I think there will be a lot more disappointed owners than happy ones.

Mr70
11-29-2001, 11:14 PM
Bob
I would imagine many Classic Car Dealers going belly up overnight if they release records like that.
So many lawsuits against them,they'd have to Declare bankruptcy.
I can think of at least 3 in Northern Il. that wouldn't like it!

x44d80
11-30-2001, 01:03 AM
I agree with SuperNovaSS and Mr70. I heard it once before that there are more 69 Z28's today than Chevy ever built, and if you ever look in Hemmings at camaros for sale you know thats true. Most every car is a Z28, blah, blah, beautiful resto car going for high bucks for sale by some dealer. I've almost given up looking at the ads because 95% of them are classic car dealer ads, and most always say x33,x77 car,non-orig motor.
Ez to change a car to a Z28 with a trim tag.

x44d80
11-30-2001, 05:42 AM
I agree. Hopefully what I read in a previous post about some GM records coming to light will become a reality. Man, this makes you think before you would plunk down alot of money for a car that could be suspect.

Stefano
12-01-2001, 12:06 AM
I do not know about 1967 Z-28 Conv'ts, but there were at least two 1968s Z-rag tops floating around.

Was to be, one of one?

SuperNovaSS
12-01-2001, 02:46 AM
I was just using a 67 Z convert. as an example since we can be pretty sure there were not built, from the factory at least.


Jason

Stefano
12-01-2001, 03:25 AM
Jason,
I'm with ya, there was supposed to be only one '68 Z-Rag top built.

SuperNovaSS
12-11-2001, 01:47 AM
<A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=599068174


Is" TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=599068174


Is</A> this guy a dealer? If so I would be weary of his cars. Check his other auctions.


Jason

Belair62
12-13-2001, 01:43 AM
Thats great.Now how about the guys selling them new in Hemmings !

bbdon
12-13-2001, 05:43 AM
Hello,

Thank you for making us aware of this listing. After reviewing the
information that you have provided on item # 599068174, we have
determined that it indeed violated eBay's listing guidelines. We have
therefore taken action and removed the listing

ChrisS
12-25-2001, 03:07 PM
I have in storage a '67 427/435 Corvette roadster with documentation that has been in my family since the day it was purchased new from Douglass Chevrolet. The original P-O-P has a printing error in the engine code. It reads TO525HEH and should have been T0525JEH. I've been told by several "experts" this was not uncommon.
There is a guy in Florida who sets up a swap space at a couple of Corvette events each year who has acquired the original P-O-P tooling and now reproduces them for $250. I've seen one of his and it is indistinguishable from the original (at least as far as mid-years),whereas the reproduction trim tags and order copies (build sheet) are generally noticeably different from the originals but in varying degrees depending on the reproducer. Most Bloomington/NCRS judges have agreed that the P-O-P has become one of the least reliable forms of ORIGINAL documentation.

tom406
12-26-2001, 05:03 AM
I agree that this whole repro POP deal is a sick joke. This is a service that has no real purpose except to phony a car up. It's not like your restoration is incomplete or your car can't go out in public unless it has a POP in the glovebox. I pray that solid Chevrolet records come to light soon....but I won't hold my breath.

Norm reynolds
12-26-2001, 12:04 PM
Hi I have been in the side lines reading all the interesting forums and have two dumb
Questions #1 what is a P-O-P plate
#2 how can you tell a real yenko
yesterday I was walking my dog around the block and saw a 1968 chevelle maroon with white vinyl top had white yenko strips on the sides a large syc on the hood and 427 on the right rear next to the tail light
the car was beat and looked as it seen better days kept thinking if this was the real deal why run it in to the ground
thanks Norm

COPO PETE
12-27-2001, 03:53 PM
This is interesting!!!! Last month, I notice a farmer in the area has a new 16 year old employee. He's driving a 69 Chevelle to work, faded grey, jacked up with gross mags on it. Never really gave it much thought. A week later JJ and I are driving through town, and see this car coming towards us. JJ says, " hey..Chevelle". I tell him whose it is, and notice the big block hood on it. Still never give it much thought. Go to the Christmas party at this farmer house last night. Tell him "hey, I see you got a new worker, and he drives a Chevelle". He tells me that he thinks it's a Malibu cuz that's what interior is in it. I say, "It's got a big block hood on it. And he tells me, it's his old mans car. He bought it in the late 70's drove it a few years and put it away. It came with the hood and it has a big block in it. They think it's a 454. Anyway the kid needs a car so pops gives it to him.Is it just me or does this car suddenly sound "interesting"?
Peter

JoeC
12-27-2001, 06:36 PM
Pete, It does sound interesting. I'm sure you know what to check for -- which assembly plant, Malibu or SS trim, rear end code, etc.

JoeC
12-28-2001, 12:53 PM
Reynolds, The POP stands for the protect-o-plate (P-O-P). This was a metal plate imprinted with specific information for the car as part of the owner protection and warrantee package. Info included ID codes for engine, transmission, rear axle, exterior color, and other items. The Yenko Chevelle was only done in 1969.

Norm reynolds
12-28-2001, 03:26 PM
Thanks Joe the chevelle I saw was a 68
looks like some one was trying to be a a show off
thanks Norm