Dealer Order Procedures

[Stefano]

Hi Jim,
Great to have you aboard. I want to thank you and Barb for all the past and present help which you have provided through Pontiac Historical Services.

Did you and the Central Office help batch the small or even single dealer COPO orders to help get them processed?

[Jim Mattison]

It is my pleasure to try and recall some of the many things that we did at Chevrolet many years ago. Had I only known that some of the vehicles we produced were going to become so collectible, I'd have done a much better job of saving all my old records and notes. I'd have also bought-up and put away many of my old company cars.

When we began the 1969 COPO 427 Camaro and Chevelle project, all of the vehicles were scheduled to go through Yenko Chevrolet. Don Yenko was a very bright businessman and he recognized that he potentially controlled that entire market.

As dealers found out about these cars, pressure was put on the sales department to make them available to everyone. We finally devised a program that would allow the dealers who were truely into the performance market, the ability to order these COPO cars so long as they met our ground rules. Orders were accepted so long as the dealer would take a total of (10) ten cars, over a 60 day period. However, toward the end of the program we were accepting single orders.

As far as the batch building of these vehicles, that was scheduled by the folks at the assembly plant. I remember that the biggest problem that we had scheduling these cars was the availability of rear axle assemblies from our supplier.

Jim Mattison

[BEAUMONTBILL]

JIM,
Could you tell me if there were copo orders for other makes of gm vehicles other then chevrolet. I would imagine that fleet orders were needed for all gm models and it would be surprising that no other make took advantage of this program as a way to get high performance vehicles built. i have never heard the term copo used with anything other then chevrolet and was just wondering why. Thanks for your time.

[Jim Mattison]

The term COPO was unique to Chevrolet Division, although I am sure that the other divisions had a department to handle "special orders" also!

Jim Mattison

[Stefano]

Jim,
I was discussing the COPO cars with a Former Super Car Dealer and he remembers having many more orders than he recieved,in the order banks. He stated that GM canceled his second complete batch of orders.

He remembers that the cancelations had something to do with the rear end heat treated ring and pinion or gears, which were having a problem meeting specifications.

The Dealership was not very upset about the cancelation of the orders because the 427 COPOs had been flagged by the insurance companies and were becoming difficult to retail by mid model year.

Do you remember anything about the cancelation of such orders? Could this be a reason why the engine plant numbers for the L72s were so much higher than the actual production? Could this also be one of the reasons why some of GM's own internal paperwork projected greater COPO production totals than what actually seems to have been produced?

[Jim Mattison]

Steve,

In all honesty, I don't remember any COPO 427 Camaro or Chevelle dealer orders being cancelled, other than a batch of about 100 Yenko orders. I remember that my group was scrambling to get every order that we had built. Many dealers were crying for these cars! If orders were being cancelled, it had to be being done by the zones or regions.

My recollection is that the insurance companies had caught on to the Yenko cars (mainly from the magazine coverage that they had gotten), making it difficult for Yenko customers to get insurance. However, for the rest of the dealers, unless an insurance company was suspicious, there was nothing in the vin number that would suggest that the engine was anything other than a standard V-8.

Jim Mattison

[T Billigen]

I know speaking for myself, insurance was a big problem in the 60s. My insurance company would not insure GTOs from 1965 on and they also monitored your driving record. When you bought a new car you had to state cubic inch and also horsepower. When I bought my camaro, my insurance jumped from 260.00 a year to 860.00 because I had gotten a speeding ticket earlier in the year. I tried to get the GM insurance they were offering at the time to offset the insurance companies that would not cover "muscle cars" they turned me down also! On the problems of getting the rear ends, On my Yenko camaro the rear is a march date and the body is a february date. This is the only number on the car that post dates the body.

[Stefano]

Jim,
The Dealership which I was referring to, is Jack Douglass Chevrolet, of Hinsdale,Illinois. His direct order of COPO Camaros all seem to have been built in late May of 1969.

I do not think that any Douglass COPOs have been found with a date later than the fourth week in May. His 25 Camaro orders should have provided approx. 60 to 120 day sales supply.

This would place his earliest next batch at late July, but even more likely, August or September. This is the batch which Jack and Tom Dumass,the General manager recall as having been canceled.

Do you have any specific recollections regarding the Douglass ordered COPO Cars?

[Unreal]

With the extended Camaro model year, and the elimination of the 427 in favor of the 454, how late could you order a COPO, and still get the L-72?

[Jim Mattison]

My recollection is that we stopped accepting new orders about the second week in May, for build-out. GM still handles build-out the same way today.

I assume that you are basing these cars being built in the fourth week of May, based on the body build date on the Fisher Body tag. Fisher Body would build bodys for our "specials" weeks ahead of time, so although the body is dated May, the car may have actually been built in June or early July. I am 100% sure that we were still building COPO's in June and early July, 1969. The biggest problem we had building the 1969 COPO's was the availability of rear axle assemblies.

Jim Mattison

[Mr70]

Jim M.
I am glad to see you are the Moderator here.
I enjoy reading your repilies whatever they are.
I like this new format already!

[Stefano]

Jim,
Thanks for the replies. I was not there and can only speculate as to what took place.

There are a few, to say the least, unsatisfied questions such as COPO production volume and order methods which you may be able to help clearify. We apppreciate your efforts by helping us with these questions.

Yes,I am referring to the Build Date coded on the firewall trim tag/Fisher Body number plate.

For example: My Dover White Jack Douglass Yenko, Double COPO, Vin number 124379N649011 has a build date of 05D.

This was one of his 25 direct order COPOs, and thus far all seem to have been built close to O5D.

The NICB information that I have shows that this COPO was shipped to Douglass Chevrolet on 05-28-69. There were at least two other documented Douglass Ordered COPOs built O5D which, were shipped on the same day, per NICB information.

Wouldn't the trim tag/ Fischer Body Tag be the last or latest date coded item installed anywhere on the Camaros?

Once the Trim tag was stamped wasn't the car only hours from completion?

Was the build-out dead line for the Camaros kept the same as other vehicles which would traditionally have new Model Year inventory ready for sale in October?

If GM couldn't fulfill all the demand, in the order banks, wouldn't the individual Zone offices be charged with the task of weeding the orders, by restriction or cancelation notices to their dealers, no matter the reason for the cancelation?

If the Tonowanda engine plant was geared up to fulfill, lets say, 1,200 COPO Camaro Orders, would they then scale back when Eaton Gear was not able to meet their production quotas?

Do records exist from GM which could document the number of special BE rear axle asmblys. produced?

Jim, I have always wanted to ask these questions. Thanks for getting involved with the format which allows me and others to do so.

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[Kurt S]

The trim tag was one of the first dated items installed (sheetmetal was also dated). The car was still days away from completion when it was attached. Had barely started thru Fisher Body.
Engine plants (and other component suppliers) received a weekly build schedule (along with some build projections). They wouldn't even realize the volume on a small runner like COPO's was reduced. And since it was a standard engine for them, just with a couple of Camaro-only parts, volume wasn't an issue.

[Jim Mattison]

Guys, you bring up some very valid points about the building of these cars! Unfortunately, I was at Chevrolet Central Office, in Detroit and not at the assembly plant when the cars were going down the line. I only know how we set-up the production schedules for these cars and to interface with the dealers and zone folks.

Frankly, I don't remember my phone ringing off the hook over any orders being cancelled, other than the batch of 100 cars from Yenko. Don called me personally to cancel those orders, as the insurance issue became a factor.

We need to locate someone from either the Norwood Fisher Body Plant or Chevrolet Norwood to answer some of the fine points on the "nut and bolt" questions. Assembly plants were known for doing some strange things!

Jim Mattison

[Stefano]

Hi Kurt,
Please help me to clearify this date issue. Are you saying that the sheet metal would typically be dated after the trim tag build date?

Is in not accepted that all drive train components and accessories including the rear axle housing cast and axle tube stamp dates should preceed the trim tag build date?

Was the Vehicle Vin installed prior to or after the Body Trim Tag?

The Glass also carries a mfg.date code but wouldn't that preceed the trim tag date as well?

What items would be date coded as having been built or installed after the trim tag date?

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[William]

I have a window sticker copy for COPO N693864 built 09E. I have two later VINs but no verification.

[Stefano]

There was a COPO Camaro at the Lombard Cruise this past Saturday. It was originally from Randy Millers Collection and was also a very late car. I only remember that the axle housing tube date was mid September.

Very sharp COPO, but it was wearing Black Z28 stripes to throw off the competition /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[Stefano]

William,
Who was the selling dealer for this late COPO?

[Kurt S]

Sheetmetal dates would be before the trim tag.
The trim tag date was just a week, and not very specific at that. Not unheard of to have drivetrains after the tag date, depending on how close they were running to their suppliers. And it wasn't a FIFO (first in, first out) system, so the last built part could be the first to be used.
VIN was attached after the body left Fisher, a couple of days after the body was started.

[JoeC]

Here is a copy of an interesting post by JohnZ who is a retired GM engineer that was involved with assembly.

"When I was working at Willow Run in 1966, we got a COPO/Fleet Order for a utility company in Oklahoma (Southwest Oklahoma Gas & Electric, or something like that) and built a fleet of 25 white Chevy II/Nova station wagons with red interiors, the factory under-the-dash hang-on A/C, with the 327/350 L-79 engines, 4-speeds, and Hurst shifters - the Oklahoma customer rep brought the Hurst shifters and linkage parts into the plant and we installed them just like the production Muncie shifters. The CEO must have been a real gearhead!"

[JoeC]

one of the above questions is about GM using the COPO process other then Chevy. I don't know if Olds called it COPO but they were sneaky like Chevy and put over 400 cu in engines in some cars also. this is from an Olds site
""The 1968 Hurst/Olds was a limited production of 515 cars. It was powered by a special 455 with W-30 components that produced 390 horsepower. It also came with under the bumper forced air induction, better known as Ram-Air. GM was not allowed to put any engine larger than a 400 cid in any A- body car, so Oldsmobile originally marketed the car as being built by Demmer Industries, but later we found out that all Demmer did was add the Hurst Dual Gate shifter and console, the walnut dash inserts, Hurst/Olds emblems and the special black markings. Oldsmobile in fact had built and installed the Monster Engines without the GM bigwigs finding out.""

[Stefano]

Thanks Kurt,
I had always regarded drive train components dated after the trim tag as inncorrect. Do any origial Drive train COPOs or Yenkos have an Engine trans or rear dated or cast after the trim tag date?

What is the maximum length of time a body with a trim tag installed would have stayed at Fisher Body, unVINed?

[Stefano]

JoeC,
Sounds like a Cool Set up, do any exist today?

Do you think COPO Pete could get one to run a quick as his ZL1?

[T Billigen]

There are quite a few of these Hurst olds out there, I believe they built a little over 500. I don't know what the going price is but is a lot cheaper than a Chevy!!

[Chevy454]

Stefano:

Don't know about that! Pete has that thing COOKING! And, the best thing is, there is still more to come!