69 COPO, Real or Not?

[ny69ssdave]

A few months ago, a 69 copo was posted on ebay, a canadian documented green one. I got on supercar registry, and watched as some people bashed the car, and others could not decide if it was legit or not. I have for the last few months contiplated buying this car. The add stated it had the org motor, Someone on here stated no way does it have the org motor. I have checked every part, and can not decide if it is the org or not. Every part is correctly date coded, and cast coded. There was some ques about the trans, again, it is properly date coded, and cast coded. As the rear was also. I have asked a few people about the correct parts, and the responce is, Well, they could be restamped. This I agree, but what happened to the old numbers that should have been stamped there? How would you get rid of them? The motor I guess I can see, mabey it was never stamped in the first place, but the main case on the trans, Everyone I have seen had a date code and vin number stamped on it. I know it would be hard to get rid of them.
My findings, and they have taken many trips to see the car, and record numbers, have found this, These cars were made and bought for one purpose in mind, To run the strip and be very impressive getting there. We all know the 427 was a very potiant motor, but how many runs could it make, before failure? These people running them didnt care about getting there org motor rebuilt, they just wanted to get back out there and run, So they replaced them, You are never really happy with your times, you are always in search of better times, that was acheived by lightning the car, or getting better aftermarket parts, thus losing the orginalty of the car. With this much horsepower, it was nothing to break an ear off your trans, or blow the rear. I remember these days, and going to the ford 9in was the hot setup back then, there was a kit out, that made it easy to make the switch over. I dont think anyone was thinking about keeping the car orginal. Actualy most of the people who ran them, that I remember, ended up so attached to racing, the camaro ended up in the back yard, and a new and better machine was built, the need to break your old speed was always a factor. Im not saying that all the COPOs out there are somewhat not 100% real, but in the Tracks we ran, none of them stayed 100%. Yes it is possiable to find all the parts, but we used to trade, or use them on other cars, its almost impossiable to track all the parts.
So I guess My statement is, I can not prove this car is not carrying all its org componets, if I had the car judged, can the judge? And if it does not have all its org componets, wouldnt it be the next best thing to have all the correct parts?
I am seariously thinking about purchasing this car, But I guess I dont want to get beat up at a superchevy show, and have everyone explain to me how its not 100% Someone stated that the car is legit, and recorded, but as far as the driveline, they were not sure.

[COPO PETE]

The car in question is without a doubt the real deal. It is a Canadian COPO! I have since talked to Larry, who originally discovered it was a COPO, and he told me when he owned the car, it did not have the original motor, tranny, or bum. The floor was hammered up a bit where the drive shaft kissed it during it racing days. There in nothing wrong with owning this car and restoring it to " number matching". But you cannot sell it claiming it has the original drivetrain. Makes a huge difference in value. When the restoration is done, a man should be up front and say it is numbers matching, but not the original drivetrain. When you start restamping vin's on parts, it makes you wonder what it is they are trying to pull! JMO
Peter

[T Billigen]

Just make sure that it is a real copo first! Try to talk to previous owners and see if they ever changed any of the main parts (engine, trans, or rear) There is a lot of restamping going on out there and it can be very difficult to tell with the expertise getting better at doing these restamps. In most cases to find an original drive train in one of these cars is rare for the reasons you have stated. Just be careful and do all your home work! As far as judging, Super Chevy only worries that you have correct components, they do not worry about matching numbers, but if you go to the Camaro Nationals, everything better be correct, including all numbers and dates, because you will not fool guys like Henderson and MacNeish, these guys know the numbers by heart!

[JoeC]

A COPO rear has different internals then a normal 12 bolt so the rear can be checked but would require removing the cover. Some of the restampers are very good and may be difficult or impossible to tell if a block has been restamped. Some times you can catch them on the date codes. IMO

[Stefano]

As COPO Pete Stated the vin and trim tag are 100% Canadian COPO. George Zapora at GM of Canada can provide you with the documents.

It is very unlikely based on the information found here that any of the Drive train is original to the car.

Yes I heard the story that one of the previous owners had the parts sitting in a barn, but found the story too convenient.

You just need to do your home work like COPO Pete did and talk to the prior owners or pay a pro to do it for you.

If your worried about what other People are going to say about a "Put Together COPO" then save your money and buy a different one Like "Mr. Gassers", for $85,000.00, it has already been judged on numerous occasions, so you'll know exactly where you stand with the Hugger COPO, and it also has Canadian Documentation .

Or you can get an original unrestored one like Brian's for $185,000.00

I for one,thought that the Documented Endura Bumper,NC8 exhaust and M22 made it a very desirable COPO.

[ny69ssdave]

I very much agree, If it is not the org motor, State it, The seller did say it had the org motor, But like I said, after veiwing the car, and componets, It was hard to decide weather it was or was not.
The car does have some neat options, And this car really is a beautiful car, none of the parts that are packed with it are aftermarket, they are all GM. This car only needs a paint job, and reassembled. It actually could be done within a few months. I am about to give up my 70 Chevelle SS Convt, LS5 with many options, for this car. I am hoping its the right move. I do belive it is not the org motor or trans, but it is definatly correct. I have a list of part numbers, and date codes, someone really put alot of time into making sure they had the correct parts. You are right, A judge would have a hard time deciding if its org or not. I would love to have the car, but like I said, for the money, is it the right car? or should I keep looking.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

A second opinion, preferably from a Diamond class Camaro judge, might be worth considering. You would be surprised as to how they tell what is correct, restamped, incorrect, etc.... They have found casting dates that were perfect for the car, except they were 'cast' in Bondo /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

Better safe (with your LS5 Rag), than sorry (after finding a better deal a few months later). IMHO!

[Jeff H]

I was in the same situation with another JL8 car. I was 99% sure it was not the original engine but after talking to the 2nd owner who verified the 4 wheel disc brakes and also told me about a bunch of options that had been added to the car, I was comfortable buying it. It took me too long to decide though and someone else bought it the day I was going to give him a deposit. In your situation, if the asking price is based on the current owner saying it is the original engine, then I would need to see some solid proof of that. Otherwise I would offer what I felt the car was worth with a "correct" engine and components. I hate the fact that some people call a car "matching #'s" when it doesn't have the original VIN matching components. To me, that is "correct components". A lot of dealers use "matching #'s" when they should be using "correct". Based on what you've told us, I think you'll always be thinking in the back of your mind that you're not sure if it's the original engine or not, so buy it thinking it isn't.

[T Billigen]

Even if some of the components are not original, it is still a very valuable car and the price is going to keep going up! In the long run it will more valuable than the chevelle. If is the real deal, go for it, I don't think you will be sorry!!!!!

[ny69ssdave]

Well, we all know the car is real, I am sure it is not the org drivetrain, but Im about to pay 50K for this car, and mabey I would be better off with the chevelle, but Most of the COPO's that I have looked at, they want 65 or better, and I have no more proof that they are any more number matching, than this one.

[tubbys57]

I'm looking for a 1970 Chevelle convertible. If you decide to sell the Chevelle for cash... or if anyone else knows of one for sale please let me know.

[Steve Shauger]

Dave(nyss69dave), don't you broker cars for Bob Harris( he owns this copo). As a matter of fact are you now selling his 1967 pace car on ebay. It seem as though you are in fact pumping up this car to sell it . Why are you deceiving all the members of this board, acting as though you are going to purchase the car. What is the deal???? /ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif

[T Billigen]

And the plot thickens..............

[ny69ssdave]

Your right, I do broker cars for Bob, So does other people, Which gives me alot of time to consider this car, but If I was only a broker, I would post the car myself, and give you all the details that I have. And the car might sell easily, but if Im considering the car for myself, I would like the opinions of other's. I have many cars myself, most that are highly sought after, And would like a COPO for myself. This car was brokered by someone else for bob, When I read the description, I could not belive they did not go into more detail about the car. If someone knew how much was there, and the quality of what is there, the bids might have gone higher. Well the car is still there, and every time I see it, I can not belive its still there. Which is why I came to this place. If you feel Im up to something, then I guess Im in the wrong place, If I was wanting to sell the car, I would list it correctly. The longer it sits there, the better chance that I will buy it for myself. But like I said, there was many stories about the car, and I wanted to hear them from someone else.

[Stefano]

All the info necessary to bid on the COPO was provided by the seller,GM of Canada, previous owners and list members.Where were you as to the bidding on the COPO when it was on ebay?

There are very few COPOs which you can purchase, pay to restore and have market value or less invested. This is one of those cars.

If you are looking for a COPO at less than current market value then what are you waiting for?

If you are serious as selling your LS5 rag for a COPO then why haven't you responded to my inquiries as to purchasing your LS5 outright, or trade for a COPO /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

[Kurt S]

If the drivetrain was supposedly stored by a prior owner, why not chase down the prior owners to find out if that's true? Sure would help solve the problem..... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif