Nova Research Project

[Nova Research Project]

Based on notes in other threads I am going to start a Nova Research Project. It will be modeled after the research compiled by the Camaro Research Group (CRG). My goal is to pull together facts that will assist enthusiasts to restore their cars to an acceptable standard based on how the factory normally assembled them. CRG calls this normative practice. It is also know as the 90/10 rule.

Now, one person does not make a group, so to start, I am seeking ideas and opinions on the topics to research. This can not be done over night or even in a year. I can find a place to start once a list of topics is developed. Novas were produced over a long time frame. The first focus will be on the 1968-1972 production years. The first focus is NOT to duplicate what is already published at other sites.

That being said, what do you think the first topics should be? What information is not well know? What do you need to know to restore your Nova to the level you want?

Thanks, Greg

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Greg;
I think that's a great idea to start the NRG, and I feel that the Nova community will benefit from it.

In order to not duplicate other's efforts, a quick call to Wayne Bushey at NNN might be wise in order to find out what has been done already. I think the 1st and 2nd gen. Novas have had some research done already by Wayne, Joe Grom, Eddie Lesley etc... so starting with the 3rd gen. would be a good idea.

I guess a good area to start collecting info is from the trim tags. It is useful to know the relationship between car build date - sequential body number - sequential VIN number. We already know that they are backwards in certain build weeks, but it would be helpful to collect the data to try determine why. Also, there are codes at the bottom of the trim tag that we believe relate to interior colors (other than seats, which is spec'd on the TR code) and exterior trim requiring body piercings. RowdyRat and I have discussed this a couple of times, but we have already found a possible exception so more data collection would be helpful.

I have a good amount of data from 05D, 06A and 06B cars /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif , and should have collected a whole bunch more this past weekend at Super Chevy Maple Grove had I thought about it - my brain was baking in the sun!

What do you have in mind for the first Area Of Investigation?

[Kurt S]

One of the first assumptions of the CRG is that we would not use non-GM source material due to issues of accuracy. So a lot of our data comes from assembly and parts manuals and any other GM source. And from actual cars, of course.
A lot of our initial work was duplicating what was out there, so that we could correct it. Always lots of misinformation out there......

[Nova Research Project]

Marlin,

I had a long conversation with Wanye today since I am not going to make the NNN Nats. He agreed that we need a catalog of information pulled from original cars to define the way they were built. There is no information cataloged at NNN, but we discussed a way to correct that. In the mean time, He agreed with the collection of data from original cars.

On trim tags: Jack Gourley at http://www.novashop.net/ is collecting Trim tag information and targeting the codes at the bottom of the tag. I do not think he is collecting VIN information at this time.

I am still open to open to ideas for topics. One thing I discussed with Wayne is the color of the under carriage and interior floor. He would like to know what color cars had what color undercarriage. I would also like to catalog pictures of original decals. I know some of the ones I need are not being repro'd. I am also intrigued with the codes stamped and painted on the various parts.

What would you like to know better?
Greg

[Nova Research Project]

Kurt,

You know you are right about incorrect information. I have been using original GM info and pictures of original cars. It would be great to take pitcures of original cars and file them away. That way you could refer back to them everytime a new question came up. My original focus was on backending the build sheets to organize the information, but there is so much more to record. You database is a big help.

Thanks, Greg

[Mike]

Greg,

You may want to contact the National Corvette Restorers Society, www.ncrs.org. (http://www.ncrs.org.) They've done a great job at documenting each year Corvette.They've generated Judging Manuals for the 1953 up to 1982 Corvettes which provide detailed description of each part of the car, the correct casting numbers for parts, date codes, etc. They even go as far as descibing paint overspray areas. If nothing else I think it would be worth the effort to obtain one of their judging manuals for reference.

Just a thought.

Good luck
Mike

[Nova Research Project]

Mike,

Thats is a good idea. Not that I want to have to go to the depths the Corvette owners do with detail. I have to keep in mind that anything published may become fact and referenced as "the only way it was done". I have no illusions about the facts leading to only one conclusion. It may turn out to showing many different results based on year and build date. Thanks!

[lowmile]

Greg, I've owned about 30 68-72 novas and and about ten have been original paint with few miles I have an 5000 mile 6 cyl 70 that is hugger orange and untouched still has the original tires. I just love the survivor cars.none have been Yenkos but i do have a daytona yellow clone. If I can be of any service to you let me know. Mark NeSmitn

[hvychev]

Mark,
Looks like you have a nice Nova. I did'nt know you could get Hugger Orange on a plain 6 cyl. Do you know how many were made?

[lowmile]

I don't know how many were made. My guess is not many. Huggger orange was added to regular production cars during the summer. Mark

[JoeC]

'lowmile' , welcome to the site. What does your orange Nova have on the trim tag in the paint code field? I am just curious if has the 72-72 or different number.

[lowmile]

It has code 65-65 on the tag. mark

[Nova Research Project]

lowmile,

"I've owned about 30 68-72 novas" wow you are definitely into Novas! Nice looking car. I would love to get some facts from it. Hugger Orange was one of the three Spring release colors. Two were only available on the 70 Camaro prior to Spring of 70. The three colors were Citrus Green (43), Hugger Orange (65), and the new Sunflower Yellow (51). Have you taken any detailed pictures? This was one of the ideas Wayne Bushey and I kicked around. If not maybe we can work something out? What region of the country are you in?

Greg

[lowmile]

I haven't taken detailed pics yet but this car is a wealth of knowledge as far as original novas go. I also have a green 32,000 mile car at this time that is a nice car. I had a 9800 mile 72 SS a few months ago 4sp tac guages i have a few detail pics of it. I added the 70 wheels to it. I live in south Ga. just above Tallahassee fla.I attached a pic of the 72. mark

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I have several detail shots of Wayne's old HO car that I took on my visits to his shop. What area are you looking at?
M

Mark, is this Wayne Busheys old huggar orange nova?

[lowmile]

yep, shure is.

[Nova Research Project]

Marlin,

You know the song "Can't always get what you want..." well, I guess I am struggling on how to start the Research Project. Here is what I eventually want to have from several original Nova's. Many of you may have already done this to a certain degree and take the knowledge for granted. What Wayne and I discussed was a focused gathering of this type of information and organizing it to understand what was normally done and what was some times done. This is a big project as we have talked about before. It will never get done, but we can start it now.

VIN and Trim tag info for date sequencing. (like when did the new spring colors hit the line in 1970)

Pictures of all of the remaining decals and labels (shocks, safety label, tire pressure label, jack instructions, tune up, air cleaner, speedo cluster, gage cluster, trans lines, electrical harnesses, I can stop now if you are laughing to hard... /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif )

Picture of any body and part markings that identified the parts to the assembly line.

Codes off of the date coded components (engine, trans, axle, shocks, carb, radiator, glass codes, castings that can be seen without disassembly)

Pictures of the markings on the heater hoses, radiator hoses, overflow hose, spark plug wires, belts)

Pictures of the finishes on the major components, axle, undercarriage color, undercoating, paint to blackout gas tank, under the back seat, suspension.....

Basically create a Jerry MacNeish level of detail verified for the Nova. Willow run wasn't Norwood so there maybe differences. Wayne said there are a lot of Camaro guys restoring Novas. They maybe using Camaro details on a Nova that were never there in the first place. How we know?

Anybody willing to donate their data? I have a copy of the CRG database just waiting to be filled. Greg

[NOCOPO]

Greg, I will try to give you all the data you can handle. My '70 is not the most pristene, but there is a lot of "untouched" items within the car (and alot of non stock stuff too.) Best I can tell, the car I have was "hotrodded" back in the late "70s. It has a '66 283 w/TH350 from an Impala in it. Lots of those lying around in late '70. /ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif It was a 250PG. My car does have all the original glass, paint, sheetmetal,(except for the RF fender and FR bumper)wheels and dog dishes, jack, spare <font color="green"> </font color> and interior, (Forest Green)

Tim

[Nova Research Project]

Tim,

That is great. The more contributions the better the end result. You saw my wish list. Send me what you can. Thanks, Greg /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[lowmile]

here is something for you to research. insde of the trunk, on the trunk latch brace, there is always a paint mark usually an X i've seen the mark be white, red, or orange. any ideas ? the seam on the trunk weather strip is alway offset 6 or 7 inches to the drivers side of the car. I have never seen it centered on the trunk latch on any of my original cars. it might take me a while but i will try to start documenting as much as i can with the cars i have now. mark

[68l30]

I've researched the trunk weatherstrip on several 1970 Novas and have found a light blue and a white id stripe.This stripe is similar in size and location to the Camaro stripe,again 6"-8" off the centerline of the trunk,top right side.I began to save all the stripes I found to document/restore a 1970 L-78 car.All have had the rope cord in the origional weatherstrip.Most of all the cars I have id'd this trait from were untouched junk cars.It may not be crystal clear,but if you know where to look you will/may see it.On a side note,it does appear on 1970 Chevelles as well.Again, found on junk or unrestored cars.A good friend just sold his survivor 11K 70 396,the marks were there.Hope this helps......

Steve

[Nova Research Project]

Mark and Steve,

I do not remember seeing the mark on the trunk latch of my 70 Nova.

I will have to see if I can find the original weatherstrip. I kept everything. I do remember that the weatherstrip joined at the bottom. Is the usual?

There was a circle of white or yellow paint stick on the rear of the car behind the drivers bumper bracket.
Thanks for the info. I will add these to the list of things to check. Greg

[lowmile]

standing at the back of the car looking into the trunk the seam will be on the bottom and 6 or 7 inches to the left of the trunklatch. mark

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I have several trunk detail shots, some came in handy this past weekend at the Nova Nationals during judging!!

The trunk seal rubber seam is offset just like you guys noted, and is not the real puffy, cushioney type.
The colored stripes that I have seen are green and yellow, at the top, by the glass, offset to the passenger's side. They are not always in the same order, sometimes it is green - yellow, other cars it's yellow - green.
I have not seen an original car with any 'X's on the trunk latch, so without a photo I didn't put it on my car. If someone has a pic, I could use it /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif Same with the white 'X' on the washer jar lid.
We have found white 'X's behind both of the rear bumper brackets, I have a pic from an 11k mile car.

The Nova judges and I had some discussion regarding the trunk spatter paint. I have pics of several cars and their spatter paint patterns on the inside of the q/panels and backseat structure. The factory only spattered about 3/4's of the way up the inside of the 1/4's, then turned the gun upside down and blew it up onto the underside of the trunk gutters. The spatter paint then ran down the inside of the quarters, and it looks really ugly. So, I redid mine this way, and some of the judges really took exception to it - to the point that they called Wayne over. Wayne said he had never seen it that way before, but Lanny Weatherford was also judging and he bought his '70 Nova new. Lanny's car is the same way, so it was accepted. It was not a big deal, but pictures are worth a thousand words in that situation.

The sealer around the inner wheel houses should be 'pushed out', and not smeared flat. So many details.... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[NOCOPO]

Guys, After reading the last posts, I went into my trunk and low and behold, a red/orange X or A scribble on the inside trunk latch. I thought that was cool. Marlin, My trunk spatter is exactly as you described it, right down to the runs on both sides. At least they were consistant !

[Nova Research Project]

Well, Mine must have been made on a Monday. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif It does not have any splatter paint from a hand width down from the top crease of the quarter. Just a light coat of rust. I would have taken a pic with my digital, except it will not be back until the weekend.

Now, the car has already been repainted and the trunk re-spatter coated. I was very specific about not putting paint or spatter where there was none before. I guess I should have checked this. They did not blast the trunk. One thing I noticed then and now was that the spatter did cover the trunk catch tube. It is now body color. Is this where the x is? Greg

[Nova Research Project]

Here is a theory about the stripes. If they are supposed to be used as a center line guide and the seam is installed offset to the drivers side then the center line stripes would be offset to the passenger side. What do you think?

The roll of film I used on the trunk did not turn out (one of the reasons I got a digital) So I put the weatherstrip in with the seam centered at the bottom. Now before I rip it out, I need to play devils advocate here. This is great information, BUT (I am sure Kurt would back me on this), it does not do much good if we can not organize it and compare it to lots of facts. I would really like to get everyone's date code and body number (minimum) to put in the database (email it privately). Then we can look for a trend. My nova was built several months before Marlin's. What if the guy that installed weatherstrip quit in march and another took over and did it different? What if it was always done offset? If Lanny and Wayne are not there, what do we do with the judges? Normative Practices are what was normally done. If 90% of the research of original cars shows an X on the washer cap, then it is safe to do. If 10% show an X then you should not do it unless you document that it was there.

Help me out here, If you can see proof or absence of anything we discuss here email me at least the Body Number and Date code of the car. These discussions are fun, but lets take it to the next step. If I put a form on a website asking the questions we come up with, would you use it? If not then I will keep at it here, but it misses what I am trying to accomplish. If this is the wrong approach let me know. Thanks, Greg /ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif

[Nova Research Project]

New question (99 thousand to go /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif ).

What would be the first 5 things you would look for if you could look over a 0 mile Nova? Greg

[lowmile]

here are a couple of trunk pics of an untouched car. mark

[lowmile]

another pic

[lowmile]

another pic the guy must have been hung over when he made this X ???

[lowmile]

one more of the underside on trunk plug. the did not put the plugs in until after the car was painted. the orange is the paint overspray from the body and the plug and sealer are clean. neat! mark

[Nova Research Project]

The quarter panel looks like mine!

[Nova Research Project]

Here is a pic of Justin Bakers 19K 71 Nova. The weatherstrip sean is offset. I found this on the web in 2001.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Excellent pics!! Thanks lowmile.
I now have some proof on the trunk latch marking, and will put it on. I'm surprised that the HO car doesn't have the spatter runs on it, what is the build date of the car? I would suspect that it is sometime in June or later. Cool stuff, very helpful.
M

[lowmile]

the car was built the first of august and the splatter on the quarters did get a little "heavy" looking in places but no real runs.take a look at this firewall pic talk about not wasting black paint!Thats not engine orange overspray its body overspray not covered up with black firewall paint. mark

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

That's a cool pic, I took the exact same one when I was over at Wayne's. It is amazing how they skimped on the black paint, it seems very prevelant on the Huggar Orange cars - just ask Belk about his orange overspray!

Your August date sounds about right, as long as it wasn't something like March - which would have really surprised me. the trunk plug not being painted is also correct, every orig. car I've seen has the non-painted sealer and trunk plug.

[SS427]

Great pictures guys, keep them coming!!

Because I have lots of experience with Chevelles but limited on the Nova, I have a couple of questions. On Chevelles I have noticed that the lid was painted on the car and the hinges always show lack of full spray penetration. The lid is also bare steel under the mount. I have also seen that the upper horizontal part of the inner quarter panel, the bottom side of the package tray and the upper part of the seat divider is completely void of paint. Are these similar on the Novas?

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

yes to all

[lowmile]

prety much the same on novas. looks like they put the weather trim glue on with a mop and bucket it dripped on the trunk floor in several spots.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

lowmile;

Neat little drip! I think it dripped right there because there is a little cut in the metal 'gutter' on the bend (if I remember correctly). So, the sealer probably dripped down through those little cuts, and might have even run down the underside of the gutter.

I like how the seam sealer 'pushes out' between the inner wheel house and the trunk pan. That is a common area of rust collection on cars where the trunk leaks, and the sealer has to be pulled out to get to the surface rust. When you put it back together, it's best to swipe on a little seam sealer, but then you need to use a caulk gun to get the nice, round 'pushed out' look back on. Nice pic.

[Nova Research Project]

Lowmile,

I have drips like that on the interior. Also there were a few places that the sealer driped on the floor, but it was painted over so it must be from when they assembled the panels. Greg This is Great info.

[Kurt S]

Looks like you are well on your way to having your own little discussion group.
Always are 2 kinds of data: bulk and detail. Bulk is just lots of VINs and tags and will help pick out changes like paint intro, swapped tags, etc.
The details just go on and on. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
I think the trunk weatherstrip was supposed to be centered on Camaros (I've seen it centered and on both sides of center) and the centering mark was there to help them get it close when they pulled it into position.

My drywall guy used to work at Willow Run (only about 4 miles from me), till he and a buddy wrecked 2 L79's racing the across the lot after the end of the line test. Oopsie.

BTW, we (CRG) started our own email list so everyone in the group got the emails and which simplied things when people joined or left the group. Just an idea....

[Nova Research Project]

Kurt,

A list might work, but that is something that is out of my expertise. I am not sure it would attract the largest audience. I will have to look into the logistics of it.

Most of the details are for my personal restoration and then filed as part of the project. That way I am prepared when I find that 70 Nova super car. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif It is also a starting point for the type of bulk questions to ask.

Bulk data is for long term history just like you stated. If I keep pluging at it maybe I will get there. I have a follow up call with Wayne Bushley about the NNN data after the round of NATS this month. That might give this a boost. Thanks for the help. Greg

[RonNova396L34]

Just wanted to put my 2 cents worth in. My car had the "X" on the trunk latch and it appeared to be red in color. I did not mess with it and it is still there. I'll have to review my video now of my restoration and see if I have it on there. I agree with how high the trunk paint went. I think I have pictures of it. Watch NNN for the X in the trunk when the article is published. I know I sent them a picture of it. I saw this "X" on the 68 Dick Harrell Nova that was at the Cedar Rapids show in Iowa.