Interesting thought

[AutoInsane]

Joel Rosen has all the numbers for the cars he produced. If a car came up that was questionable why would he just look in his records to see if it was one of his, buy it then either re-sell it himself or thru a third party with a letter of authenticity?

And along those lines why wouldnt he try to track down any and every exisinting but 'undiscovered' Motion out there to make himself a few bucks....

Hummmmmmmm...... maybe he is doing this...... could explain why he won't give out the VIN numbers....

Just a thought.....

[supergonzo]

I still live down the block from Baldwin Motion, or where it was. I went in to buy "parts" from Joel many times.
Under NO circumstances were there ever 500 Motion cars built. Not a chance.A much closer number was 200.If that, which I highly doubt.

BTW Benjamin Pontiac was/is also just down the road from where Motion was, and Joel used to "Top Cat" tons of Pontiacs also. This was in competition to Royal Pontiac's famous " Bob Cat" racing program. Joel was also a big pontiac fan and Joel's choice to promote his shop at National Speedway in 1969 , was with a 69' Judge he campaigned.

For those of you who don't know, Motion performance was 3 garage bay doors, a very small lot out front and a small parts area with lots of "motion" stickers on "Mr. Gasket parts" which were laying all over the place. Joel didn't really MAKE anything except stickers that was put on other aftermarket parts.

Don't get me wrong I am a great admirer of Joel, he is good at what he does, and that is sell himself and his "parts" and his "legend".

[mahoy78spyder]

I'm not so sure Joel has the VINS... maybe some others can chime in here.

Supergonzo - very interesting to hear from someone who's "been there" personally. I've seen pictures of the shop from the outside, but know very little of the shop itself. What else do you remember of it?

Ken

[supergonzo]

It was messy, not really busy, seems like most of the sales were through people who phoned in. Just really a parts desk, with a few short isles of parts.

Joel also sold alot of Dune-Buggy Kits which were popular in the early 70's, and there were quite a few manufacturers of fiberglass dune buggy's here in Long Island, as it was legal at that time to run on the beach. The south shore of L.I. NY is basically a 100 miles of very nice beach front.

There were alot of other performance shops as well, and Motion was the place where the richer (north shore) long islanders, often bought their cars or had work done. Since most of them could not drive or tell a hammer from a screwdriver.

If you were mechanically inclined you probably did not go to Motion,as there were plenty of other top notch machinists and performance builders, (Nunzi automotive, Bill Mitchell performance,etc.etc.)that were cheaper and even more knowledgeable. Long Island also had 2 racetracks at that time, and still has lots of engine builders especially out in eastern L.I.

Motion is/was on Sunrise Hwy,the other side the street is a elevated railroad track, this area was known to me and other drag racers as the 1/4 mile. As there is a 1/4 mile stretch of road uninterrupted opposite Motion to the west, just one stop light away. Many drag races took place there.
With no possiblilty of Turn-in or on-coming traffic it was a natural.

Funny thing is, the high end customers would pick up their cars at Motion some friday night, and on the other side of the street in the train station parking lot, there would be Mopars, Pontiacs, Olds, etc. waiting for these cars to pull out of Motion to challenge them right there. I remember many a time, shutting down some rich kid, who then promptly made a U-turn and pulled back into Motion to complain. I think we may have actually drummed up more business for Joel.

Don't get me wrong Motion put together some real sweet cars, but the average client was a dork, who would have been better off racing with a automatic VW bug. I am generalizing of course, but more often than not that was the case.

The amount of attention/money that Joel's cars get, is amazing to me, considering if you lived here, Motion although a cool place, was just a garage that did work on cars. Again marketing is everything and Joel was very good at that. Just like Pontiac had everyone convinced they HAD to buy a GTO in the 60's....he has convinced many people that his cars were special ordered, factory vehicles.

[whitetop]

Supergonzo
What was the quality of work Motion performed back then? What was their reputation in the NY area?
Why I'm asking is one of the low mileage Motion cars that was featured several years back said when the engine was pulled for a rebuild one head was a square port and the other was an oval port. Owners said the engine was never out of the car since it left Motions bays.

Another article in a New York based publication, Street Power, January 1979 featured a '75 Corvette owned by a guy named Robert Habacher from Baldwin N.Y.. Robert had a lifelong passion since the '50's for a hot Corvette. Robert finally made his money in the moving business and took the 'vette to a Baldwin based speed emporium for an engine build with tunnel ram etc. He said he took it to this place because it was supposed to be "the" place for street car modifications and Street Power implied this place was nationally famous. When he got the car back the he said the place really screwed up the engine and said the owner of the shop had young inexperienced teenagers do the rebuild. Car barely ran and when he brought it back in the owner charged him to replace the carbs + a labor charge. Owner of the shop was blaming it on defective carbs and told Robert he would return the parts back to the manufacturer for a rebate. Robert said he never received the rebate back. Finally took the car to Custom Corvette Enterprises where they squared everything away. CCE said the manifold bolts were never tightened down. The article never said Motion but really implied it. Also the car had Motion valve covers with Motion emblems, Koni shocks, Hooker 4 into 1 side pipes etc.

Another pic I saw in an old mag was a undercarriage shot of a new Camaro at Motion on a hoist and showed the mods that Motion did: Traction bars, shocks etc. Motion spray painted the traction bars white while on the car and overspray was all over the rearend, springs, new shocks etc. Nothing was taped off. I do understand that quality workmanship/detail etc is better today(and expected) but If I owned the car back then I would of been upset. It was really shoddy looking even for I expect those times.

Dave

[supergonzo]

WOW..
What was the quality of work Motion performed back then? I never had work done there myself. So I do not know from personal experience. For the most part I think their work was okay. I was in the shop bays quite a few times, looking at what they were working on. At this time I was young myself and working as a mechanic/car painter in a collision shop, to support my Hot-Rod habit.

What was their reputation in the NY area? They weren't a hardcore one-stop race shop, as they did not have a machine shop, but sent the work out to be done. They then assembled the necessary parts at Motion. This was for short blocks. Other than that they did most of the work themselves. Their reputation was okay I guess, Motion appealed to the guy who knew a little, but not alot about muscle cars/vettes. There were many specialty shops that were more popular among the super stock racers. Motion Phase III Vettes were promoted heavily and appealed to the guy who could afford them and didn't know much else about cars. Don't get me wrong they RAN and were FAST most times.

Custom Corvette Enterprises is another specialty shop with a GOOD reputation. I don't know Robert,so I really can't comment on his situation.
As far as teeneagers working on cars, I don't think I ever saw that at Motion. As far as the quality of work they did overall, I'd say they were okay. To be fair I am sure every place has one or two or more horror stories, sometimes things just screw up.

As far as Joel Rosen not living up to his end of a bargain...well.....
My main point about Motion is that it was a place that was well advertised. Got featured in local magazines, etc. etc. Who do you think paid for all that advertising???
Was their work a good value??? Here's an example:

1973...Buy a Hot new CD Ignition from JC Whitney at $29.95
....or Buy the same Hot new CD Ignition from Joel with a Motion sticker on it for $89.00

.........Funny thing is that....ITS STILL WORKING!!
Buy a beautiful 69' BB Camaro, mostly all original for $25K
OR by nice undocumented "Phase III" BB Camaro for....$100K

[JoeC]

Supergonzo, Do you go the LI car shows? I went to 2 last weekend. One at the PAL Sports Complex in Holtsville and another at Flowerfield in St. James. While talking to some of the vendors (asking if they had any Motion parts) some of them express the same perspective about the Motion cars as you. One vendor was telling me he didn't think Motion was such a dig deal back in the day and could not understand why the Motion cars have high value today. He happened to be a vendor selling diecast models. I asked him why there are so many Motion diecast car models today. He just laughed and said "I can't understand it."

The fact is Motion Performance built cars that are considered SuperCar Legends. It is similar to the Sports or Music industry where certain people or bands become Superstars and others don't. The superstars don't always have more talent then the ones that don't make it but somehow with a mixture of luck, public perspective, and some talent, they rise to the top. MP did win some drag racing titles and did design some of his own fiberglass parts but a large part of the Motion legend was caused by Marty Schorr. Marty was the editor of Cars magazine and other magazines and did a lot of articles on MP. Marty still has a company called PMPR Inc. and works on automotive product promotions and still writes some articles. He created the Motion ads, catalogs, and promotional material. What Baldwin/Motion did was not all that much different then what other hi po dealers did but Joel and Marty had that special mixture of luck, public perspective, and talent, and MP rose to the top of the SuperCar world. I can still remember reading some of the outrageous Motion ads back in the 70s that boasted about 11 sec ETs, 9 sec 454 Vegas, and showed a graveyard with FORD, MOPAR, and AMC on the gravestones. Motion was building hi po cars that came with a 11 sec ET guarantee and you could buy them at a Chevy dealer using GMAC. They continued building, selling, and advertising hi po cars until the Government shut them down. MP history is all there for anyone to see, documented by the old car magazines. Motion cars are SuperCar legends.

[supergonzo]

""Supergonzo, Do you go the LI car shows?"" Sometimes I do, but those shows are in suffolk county and are a pain to get to for me. I have gone to Bellmore when it was going last year. I have been to both of the shows you mentioned, just not recently. I DO still go to test and tune at westhampton track regularily. I race pure stock muscle cars, and belong to the American Muscle Car Association, which runs the national pure stock drags every year in Ohio. Which I go to.

""the same perspective about the Motion cars as you. One vendor was telling me he didn't think Motion was such a dig deal back in the day and could not understand why the Motion cars have high value today.""" I Couldn't agree more

""What Baldwin/Motion did was not all that much different then what other hi po dealers did but Joel and Marty had that special mixture of luck, public perspective, and talent"",...Yes all true, what they did best was promote their NAME..MOTION...other places just did the work and that was that.

""Motion was building hi po cars that came with a 11 sec ET guarantee and you could buy them at a Chevy dealer using GMAC"".Yes the 11 sec ET, ever hear of any body collecting on it??

""They continued building, selling, and advertising hi po cars until the Government shut them down.""
The Government shut down ALL customized car businesses, because of safety reasons, this eliminated alot of dune-buggy manufacturers almost immediately. Motion got some heat for trying to produce BBC Vega's. That didn't go over to well with the then safety minded government.

""Motion cars are SuperCar legends."" I agree, they build some nice cars, it seems stickers and ads however can go along way to establishing a legend.

[Steven J]

Supergonzo, I've attended the stock muscle car race in Ohio, which car is yours ?

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Supergonzo;
what was 'Speedwin' like? Were they a major speed shop in LI?

I have been through that area (Baldwin) a few times...great place to street race...I have seen quite a few of the articles on the Motions..the pictures show cars that look like the modifications were done with a pair of tin snips in some cases..not really that professional of a job...case in point the side exhaust on a '69 Nova...skirts look like a kid cut the clearance cuts...I guess the whole point was going fast..

[djunod]

Some of the work was sub-contracted out. For example:

There's a guy in the area here that when he saw my Maco, came up and started talking to me. He said "We used to build those for Motion". He worked in a shop in New Jersey that did the Maco's and some of the other cars. I never did ask him the name of the shop. I should probably look him up again and ask him about it some more.

[supergonzo]

Steven J,interesting, I have a 69' Judge RAIV it runs mid 13's.
Dan Jensen ran a Blue LS6 car this year, it went high 12's. I am thinking about purchasing a LS6.

Speedwin...not a big shop

Some of the work was contracted out, such as bodies, like Maco's and dune buggies, they were built on Lawson Blvd. In Oceanside L.I. and sent about 4 miles over to Motion.

[Chevy454]

supergonzo:

I'm thinking Jensen's Chevelle went 12.50s...Pete can correct me on exactly where, but that thing was hauling.

[supergonzo]

Dan's LS6 now runs 12.12's....as he now has that car running super.

[Mr70]

This sure looks like Dan Jensens Chevelle.Could it be?The Blue LS6 on top line right,at our favorite place.www.futureclassicsnj.com/carlistframe.htm (http://www.futureclassicsnj.com/carlistframe.htm)

[NEATSS]

Dan's Chevelle has white stripes now. Don't remember if it had them when he bought it. The car at Future Classics was sold new in Michigan and wound up in a trailer park in Kentucky. I considered buying it in the early 90's. It was a bare shell and a bare block then. Mains were all spun and a guy in Indy had parted it for his drag car in '87. He sold the shell and block for $300.

Any particulars on this LS6..I am keeping a database on them...

[Chevy454]

Hey gonzo...which "little birdie" told you about the 12.12?! /ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif That is flat out hauling the mail! What was his MPH?

[supergonzo]

No little birdie told me, Dan himself!!
Anyway gotta run, be back in a few days.

[COPO PETE]

MPH??????...howz about 114.79!
Peter /ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif

[supcarbob]

Supergonzo,
I am doing research for a magazine article on 1969 GTO Judge drag cars. Please email me about this car Motion used in 1969.

[Jeff Murphy]

Definitely not Pure Stock material, but may be of interest to you anyway: <font color="blue"> </font color> Southwest Gallery of Cars (http://www.southwestgallerycars.com/chev.htm) <font color="black"> </font color> (scroll down)

I came across it when I was looking for a COPO.

[JTH74]

I had a discussion with a guy that worked for Joel or had a shop in L.I. back when Joel was building these cars in the 60's and early 70's, and had a couple of things to say about M/P, these are the things he said, not my opions at all, just some second hand talk, so take it for what it is worth. First, he said that the dyno at M/P never worked. Second that Joel did two or three Corvettes for some wealthy oil guys from the Middle East, and he supposedly pulled the 427 out of the vettes and put in a 396 from a Camaro, and the 427 went in the Camaro, and he remembered Joel saying that these guys did not know what a stock 427 ran like anyway, so they would have a Phase III 396 Corvette with all the 427 markings and think that they had a real fast car when they got it home, this is kinda funny in a way. Last he did say that the cars that Joel built dynoed or not were very fast and by looks alone had a menacing street presence! If anyone wants this guys name I will email it to you privately to see if you know who he is, and if he really has any knowledge of what happened back then or just does not like Joel, and again this is not my opion at all, because how would I know, these cars were built before I was born.

[Born30YrsLate]

i have talked in the past with a gentlemen who worked at motion from 1968-1973 and he stated that only the rich kids bought motion cars....that's my two cents worth for what it's worth...... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif

[supergonzo]

I have a few pics of the 69' Judge Drag car, that Joel campaigned.I have to find them.
Joel was looking forward to the release of Pontiac's RAV motor, which if ever released in a car, would have easily dominated the street/strip ranks at that time. Conservative estimates put the HP ratings somewhere at 525HP. They have been dyno'd in stock form at 540! eeesh. I'm kind of glad that didn't happen. Although lots of racers bought them. I have a older friend/racer who had one and ran 10's back in 1978!

Joel on his Drag Car 69' ran a Top-Catted (his version of the Royal Pontiac Bob-Cat treatment) RAIV motor I believe. It has been in Cars magazine. I just have to find that issue, its somewhere.

Since someone posted a pic of Motion, I thought I'd share a few with you. Showing Joel's 2 favorite cars. Chevy's and Pontiacs. Notice the Motion hoods on the TA's and Birds.And the USA-1 license plate.
The 455 Super Duty (Joel was very hot on this in 1973) is shown with a holley carb, edelbrock torker intake, and of course the Motion Sticker on the valve cover, on an otherwise stock Pontiac engine compartment. Even has Air!!

http://3490777273/motion/index.htm

[djunod]

Get "Cannot find server"...

[supergonzo]

http://www.raceway.com/motion/index.htm

[copo9566aa]

Thanks Supergonzo
I have one of these pics in Pontiac Special 1983 Mag...

[djunod]

Cool pictures. Those look like '75 T/A's. Can't tell for sure... think that front end treatment was limited to 1 or 2 years.

I had a '75 T/A back in the early '80's. Love those things, but would rather have a 70 or 71.