possible copo

[CJP_69]

I am newly registered to this board but have used it as a reference for a while. I wanted to post some info on a 1969 Camaro that I just purchased as "food for thought" for this website. A check with Mr. Cunneen and his records did not yield any info. The car is believed to have had four owners(excluding myself) and its history is known to 1981 when it was purchased with a 327 4speed, painted Lemans blue with a white top. It was driven until 1988, then parked until now. I bought the car rolling from a friend who had it for two weeks and wanted the non original 327/4 speed out of it. The car's tag info is 302149BDY 05E 711 61 E X11D80. Vin 124379N649841. It has the original 309 master and disc assembly, 3/8 line, exhaust plate, bbc heater box w/blower motor stamped 3/69, Harrison 4 core 4 speed radiator stamped "O F O" on pass. tank,"O I" on driver's tank. It is an original 4speed car w/ Muncie speedo cable and it has what appears to be original cowl induction wiring exiting above the fuse box with relay on firewall and cowl induction throttle arm with no switch. The cowl hood has a weathered grommet but is missing the flapper pieces. I also sanded a portion of it and found burnished brown paint. The car has small block engine mounts(no part#s) and a small block cross member but has a big block z bar. The rear is coded BE 06 11 G 2 and the casting appears to be E 26or8? 9(corroded). The tubes are welded to the pumpkin and it has old J bolt traction bars. The front leafspring perches are tack welded to the body. The interior has a rosewood wheel, no gauges or console. The hearsay is that it had a big block in the 70's and is believed to have been in Rhode Island all its life. The car is very solid aside from slight quarter lip, fender and rear glass channel rust and the overall "weathering" of it looks like it hasn't been touched for a while. It has a rear spoiler with the thicker tension rod. I acknowledge that anything could have happened to this car over the past 33 years, lack of documentation, and am aware of the date coding supposedly being before the body build. However, the 05E build and 06 11 on the rear are so close that I felt I should post this car's facts. I bought the car thinking it was a 4 speed SS car to build a clone ZL 1 but now I'm not sure if I should go that route. Any input is appreciated. Thanks-Chris.

[Jeff H]

Since nobody else has responded yet, I will offer my opinion. I've seen other COPO cars that are documented and have the BE rear dated after the cars build date and they are right in the timeframe your car is in. So, don't let that rear make you think it isn't a true COPO car. But, it will be up to you to do as much homework as possible to try and verify that it is a real COPO car. Most of the evidence you have found points to a true COPO so keep asking questions. It would make a nice ZL1 clone if you can't find a correct date L72, but you may want to try and locate a correct L72 first. Somebody else must have some more information to help out, so please add to my comments or correct my comments guys.

[Stefano]

Jeff,
Which COPO are you aware of that has it's original BE dated after the body Build date???

[Kurt S]

#'s look OK except for the rear. The first rear dated similar in the database is 11,000 cars after this one. I tend to think it was swapped (and a lucky swap at that).

[CJP_69]

Jeff,
I have the feelers out now trying to dig up info on this car.
Kurt,
I would tend to agree with what you are saying and that is why I posted the data for number crunchers like yourself. But the other cues on the car still make me scratch my head and ironically, after I posted this, I read the thread started by Stefano on 05/31/02, "Dealer Order Procedures", in which Jim Mattison stated that there were supplier problems with the COPO rear ends. Again, thanks for the replies. As I said, this is food for thought. The car shows approx 30500 miles on the odometer. I am curious if anyone has ever confirmed any date coding on the Harrison radiator. My curved neck has a "F" on the recess between the two "O's". Thanks Chris

[Jeff H]

Stefano, I think Kurt knows which car I'm referring to. It's 11,000 units before this car and almost the exact same date on the rear. It's an 06A car, but from what I remember, isn't there an issue with a lot of cars being 06A and no 06B or 06C. This car could be a lucky swap on the rear to get it that close, but it's also quite a conincidence it falls very close to the time frame of a documented car with a late rear.

[COPO PETE]

I started a post about a year ago called "June Bums". Quite a bit of info in that section.
Peter

[Stefano]

Pete How do you link it up?

[Chevy454]

June Bums (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB10&Number=3280&Forum=Al l_Forums&Words=june%20bum&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Se archpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=3280&Search= true#Post3280)

Your welcome... /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

[Stefano]

Thanks for the Link and info. So it is not that the rear is dated after, but for the long 6A month????

MR70 have you documented this situation with Chevelles as well?

[Mr70]

I have not seen enough COPO Chevelles to form any kind of opinion on this subject.There's just not enough around.

[Stefano]

I meant,RPO Chevelles.

[Kurt S]

This is clearly an 05E car. It has nothing at all to do with long 06A. And 11000 units before this car is early May.
Out of 283 May cars, not one has a June axle in it. Hence I doubt this axle is original. That and there's no way for a car to sit for 2 weeks on the line til the axle showed up.

[COPO PETE]

Thanks for the reply Kurt. I do agree.
Peter

[CJP_69]

Kurt S,
Too bad you weren't closer, I'd have you come look at this car. Is there anybody on this site who was actually on the assembly line who can comment on this. Unless you were there, or have documentation from the Norwood plant on actual day to day output and production, to unequivocally say "NO WAY", although you surely have plenty of data to compare, its wrong to make the assumption. If Mr. Mattison could comment on this. On one of his previous posts, he stated that a body for a "special" could be built through the Fisher body plant a few weeks prior to going down the assembly line and that supplying rears were a problem. Maybe you're right. But if a rear switch is the case, according to the previous owner, it would have been done prior to 1980 as this is the way the car was when his friend initially bought it(and owned it from 1981-1984). I asked about date coding on the radiator because it has an "F". Could this also be a June date code, and if so, could the car have gone down the line in June? Maybe someone in the 1970's stripped a June built COPO to build this car. I know it is all speculation, and it's not going to change this car one way or another, but just when you think you know the answer, a car like this changes the question.
Thanks- Chris

[Jeff H]

Sorry, I meant 11,000 units after this car. It was Charley's old car but it was an 06A car as opposed to this one being the 05E. Obviously without documentation it's pretty much impossible to prove anything especially an exception to the rule. But here's a case where the car was never represented as a COPO so why would someone waste time and money putting another BE rear dated so close into a car and then sell it as an SS? Remember, they never built any Z28 convertibles or ZL1's with 4 wheel disc brakes. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Zedder]

CJP: I hear what you are saying about a rear swap prior to 1981, but remember it was easier and cheaper back then to swap a rear than rebuild it. In the mid 70's we never rebuilt anything, we just swapped the rear, motor or tranny out for another. Also, as a case in point, my first 67 Z-28 sat in a salvage yard from the 1980 until I bought it in 1998 - I didn't realize it had a BE rear in it until I got it home!

[Stefano]

Chris,
It is unlikely that the rear is original to the Camaro based on the data which exists (per Kurt). The COPO clues which you mention point in that direction, but are easily added to the Camaro.

Since you appearantly have a low miles original sheet metal and unrestored Camaro, I would say that it would behoove you to pay for an expert opinion as to the possible status of the car.

With only four owners and the car having been 'local' you would think that there would be more info. available about the Car itself.

What are the dates and part numbers of the internal components like the ring and pinion of your rear axle housing and do all the proper COPO specific items exist?

[Kurt S]

A car was not scheduled until all components were available. When they come off the end of the line, they are ready to ship, not waiting on parts. No plant is big enough to do that...... JohnZ was there and confirms that. I worked in assembly plants and confirm that.

#'s look like a COPO, axle doesn't look original to the car. Could be they swapped with another racer, who knows....
I never assumed it was wrong, I said I doubt it is the original axle. Please don't say I said something I didn't.

BTW Jeff, 11,000 cars is about 2 weeks production......

[CJP_69]

Jeff H,
When I heard about this car, I assumed it was possibly an SS 350 car because of the X11D80 tag, disc brakes, 4speed body, 12 bolt etc. The car was never represented as such, just a regular Camaro. My friend bought the car because the previous owner(who purchased it in 1984 and parked it in 1988 until last month) was having trees cut on his mother's property so the car had to go. It wasn't until I got it home when I sanded the corroded rear to check the codes.

Stefano,
I am well aware we are in an age of clones, rebodied cars, fake tags and documentation. These parts may have been swapped, but prior to 1980, I wonder how many actually knew what a COPO was. It's not to say that it couldn't have happened and I realize that. Like I said before, I am trying to look into info on the car's history.

Kurt S
My mistake and my apologies. I am very familiar with JohnZ's posts on camaros.net.
I asked about the radiator dating but I guess no one knows. I have not popped the housing cover to check the posi.

Again I will ask if Mr. Jim Mattison can comment on the statement that he made about the body tag build date in the "Dealer Ordering Procedure" thread.
Thanks for the replies-Chris

[Jeff H]

I doubt it's the original rear as well. 2 weeks is a long time frame for a car to have been started and then sit around waiting for a component like a BE rear. I would think they would stick a regular 4.10 rear in a car to keep the line moving then pull something aside like that. Chris, what are the dates on the other components inside the rear? Are there any signs that the rear could have been removed at some point in it's life or are the u-bolts so rusted that it looks like it's been there forever? Kurt, does CRG have any cars on record that have documentation like the p-o-p with a rear that was stamped incorrectly? I'm wondering what the chances would be that it's an 0510 rear that was stamped 0610? I just think it's a curious situation and the car sure seems to be a COPO but the rear really throws an odd curve. I still think it would be an amazing coincidence that someone would end up swapping one BE rear for another BE rear especially if most people didn't even know the significance of those rears way back when. This is the kind of stuff that helps us all learn more so I hope I'm not wasting anyone's time with my comments! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

[CJP_69]

Jeff H,
I haven't pulled the cover yet to check the rear internals.
The car has rusted J bolt traction bars. Axle tubes have extra welding to center section and leafspring buckets are tack welded to body. A BE swap with that close of a date is absolutely possible but how probable. In the Dealer Order Procedures thread, T Billigen states he has a February dated Yenko with a March rearend. Is that rear original? Maybe he can reply.

Kurt S,
Do you have data on any 05E COPO with body number or vin before or after this car with known rear end dates?
Thanks-Chris

[T Billigen]

I will check on the correct date on my rear sometime this week. My car is a 2-D and I think my rear is a March the third?

[JoeC]

Does it have the original front fenders? If so see if there are any numbers hand written inside the forward lower panels.

[CJP_69]

T Billigen,
Thanks for your input.

Joe C,
I already checked. Layer of surface rust. Nothing observable. Thanks anyway-Chris

[shor]

CJP, Does your BE stamp look like this? Do you have a picture?

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/22330-be%20rear%201.jpg

[Kurt S]

All 05E cars have May axles, COPO and non-COPO.
Later 02D cars can have early March axles. Not relavent to the 05E cars.

And the cast date of E26/8 9 means the June code is correct. Cast about the same time the car was built. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
Several COPO's in RI. I still like the swapped with another racer theory. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[COPO_Anders]

Kurt, you didnÄt reply on the mail I sent you about my car.
VIN is N661631 and it`s built in 06A.
The BE-rearend is cast in F 4 9 and itÄs stamped BE0619G1.
I learn new things every day !

Anders

[elcamino]

The letters are not consistant, which makes me wonder if the BE was stamped at a different time than the other.

Everyone seems to put so much emphasis on the dates always being correct. Also they way these cars were driven, it would not be unusual to find the engines, trans and axle to be changed. I had a friend who parents bought him a new 1967 Camaro 327 with manual trans on floor, 3sp or 4sp, can't recall. He beat the living hell out of car. We were always racing it. He wore the rear tires out in several months. I don't recall thought that he ever broke anything but he raced anything and everything.

Just my 2cents........

[CJP_69]

Shor,
The characters are just like that with the date being 06 11 G2. A buddy of mine will try to upload a copy of a few digital photos he took before his battery died. You can just make out the BE and the date with the E underneath for Eaton posi.

Kurt S,
What are the dates and numbers that you have for these 05E Copos. I'm not interested in the whole sequence of the vin or body number as I respect peoples' privacy if they don't want them published, but what do you have? I will find this enlightening so maybe this can be put to rest.

Does anyone have any info on Bob Johnson from Scuncio Chevrolet. I am doing my own research to track down a Scuncio to see if any records still exist as this was the closest hi-po dealership. During the 1980's one of the Scuncios lived in my old neighborhood while the dealership was still open, but I know when the dealership folded, he moved elsewhere.

ANY INFO IF THERE WAS DATE CODING ON HARRISON TANKS?

Someone must have info on this. Brian from the Supercar Workshop?

Thanks-Chris

[emaner]

hey everyone..these are some pics I took for Chris cjp69 a couple of days ago..of the possible copo car. I hope these help. Erich

[emaner]

more pics!

[emaner]

these next 2 pics are of the rear end housing numbers..we may take some better pics of these this week.

[emaner]

housing pic

[emaner]

heres one of the interior..very clean..check out the steering wheel..killer option.

[emaner]

harrison radiator

[emaner]

heater box

[William]

Steering wheel appears to be '67-'68 walnut wheel, incorrect for '69.

[Kurt S]

Anders,
I'm sorry, I was (and will be) traveling of late and thought I'd replied!

Chris,
I'm not sure what data you're looking for.
Not alot of 05E COPO axle data. 9N6496__ has 12/BE0519G.
The first car in the db with a June axle is 9N6579__. That's 10,000 cars after yours, figure 8-900 cars a day.

[emaner]

when I looked at this car last week..I thought the strongest evidence of the car being a copo was the heater box..it looks factory. plus the car had a 327 for years..sure the heater box could have been changed..but if it was..it was in the first 12 years of it"s life? were people doing that back then? if this was a small block car..and someone bothered to make the box change to a big block heater box..then more likely would"nt there have been a big block in the car instead of a 327 for so many years? what are the chances on top of that of a harrison radiator? the cowl hood has all the evidence of being factory original which is neat too. the cars original color being burnished brown with a white top is killer too. I keep going back to the heater box though? I believe this was a factory big block car...I'd be more convinced that someone changed the vin tag before that heater box!! unless you were on the chevy line putting these cars together who knows what was going on with the rearend and assembly issues..just my opinion. Erich

[CJP_69]

Kurt,
It was just a shot in the dark to see if you had an 05E Copo with a vin after this one with a May rear. Thanks

[Salvatore]

Hey William, You got a walnut wheel through November of 1968. In December, you received a rosewood wheel. Sam 1969 RS-Z/28

[Jeff Murphy]

For what it's worth my COPO (current feature car) is an 06A trim tag date (351185 BDY) and a BE0616G1 rear end in it. As far as I know, it hasn't been swapped.

[William]

sc69sam after 27 years of 1st gens trust that I know the difference. A May built '69 would have a Rosewood wheel. The wheel in the photo is a '67-'68 Walnut wheel, not the same as a '69 Walnut wheel.

[T Billigen]

CJP 69, I don't know if this will help you, as Kurt stated it probably isn't relevant to your car. My rear is: BE 0305 G1 and it is the original rear so it is a few days later than my 2D build date. Looking at your pics tells me anything is possible!!!

[Salvatore]

William, I have a dark Walnut wheel on my 1969 Z/28. It was built 11D,(1968) Is this wheel acceptable? Thanks, Sam

[William]

Many years ago I has a rough 12A '69 parts car with a Rosewood. A shop across town had a rough 11C '69 SS with a Walnut. That told me the change was made between those dates. Your 11D car certainly could have been built with a Walnut.

[Salvatore]

Thanks William. I will keep the wheel intact. Goes to prove, (I saw it there) info. is always the best. Everything is not always written in stone! Sam

[T Billigen]

Post deleted by T Billigen

[T Billigen]

In reference to Joe C.'s comment about writing in the front fenders, I have a picture of my front fender extension that has some writing on it, but been unable to post pic on site? Anyone interested in seeing it, e-mail me and I will send it.

[HiPerf]

I know this is an old post but I have a few things that I would like to state about this car. I was called by Chris and asked if Scuncio sold a burnished brown C.O.P.O Camaro,I told him I would like to see the car. After looking the car over all the sign's point to a 427 car. The car has a factory cowl induction set up and you can tell it has been on the car for years,the hood is even burnished brown under the blue paint. The car also has a single 3/8 fuel line that has been on the car forever aswell. I know every one has stated that the rear end date is off,but it may have been a swap out of another car. This is a small state we live in and a lot of these 427 cars came out of Scuncio,so its not that hard to beleive that it my have come out of another car. The owner ship of this car has been traced back to 1977 and at that time it had a small block with a saginaw trans and from looking at the car that was not original. I will not say,yes or no to it being a 427 car at this time. The car was sold new from Scuncio,the NICB proves that and the Scuncio "Hi Performance" emblem fits in the holes in the tail lamp panel. The car has not been touched at all from the time Chris brought the car home,and he would like to know the history of the car before the resto starts on the car. I will have some pictures to post later of the car for others to see. I have some other info on this car but at this time I will keep it to myself. There will also be an new post about the car on another site,there is a good freind of mine that can not post on this site so maybe Team camaro would be a great place to start a new one about this car.

[HiPerf]

Ok here are some pictures.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/003_23A.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/005_21A.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/011_015.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/008_018.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/007_019.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/009_017.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/010_016.jpg

[HiPerf]

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/009_17A.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/012_14A.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/013_13A.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/028_0.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/013_013.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/014_12A.jpg

[HiPerf]

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/018_008.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/020_006.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/017_009.jpg

[427king]

[ QUOTE ]
The car has a factory cowl induction set up and you can tell it has been on the car for years,

[/ QUOTE ] You are aware that there are ways to tell an original cowl car without relying on the age of the air cleaner,right?

[HiPerf]

Chuck,I know what to look for on a factory cowl hood car. From looking at this car it was that way from the factory.

[supercomp 8.90]

i have it 418 units from another car 05d x11, i would take off the ss emblem and try to lightly strip off the paint underneath to see if there was a bowtie there at one time, do a careful tear down and be checking for any crayon marks on the body panels or trans crossmember etc. i have heard that easy off oven cleaner http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif works pretty good for this.

[HiPerf]

The car did have bowtie emblems on it a past owner I talked to put the SS emblems on the car,he also added the 327 fender emblems.

[427king]

Is the car an RS as well? I do see the tail lights are for an rs ,but may have been changed as well??

[John Brown]

Doesn't have the RS back up lights....

[m22mike]

Also check for assy marks on the front fender extensions.
It would be nice to find something like this.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/m22mike/copo060.jpg

Mike

[ANDY M]

This car was built 502 cars behind mine, and mine is an 05D car, with a BE 0519G2 rear. The body number is about 3100 higher than mine. Car must have been built on a Monday.

[Stefano]

"The car's tag info is 302149BDY 05E 711 61 E X11D80. Vin 124379N649841"

My Silver X11 Copo is VIN 648998 with body 301731 05D and the original 5 15 dated BE

I have another Copo in the Data Base which is also O5E and has a May Dated BE per the original POP.

Sounds very Much Like another Potential Scuncio Copo.

Who is going to restore it?

[Kurt S]

[ QUOTE ]
My curved neck has a "F" on the recess between the two "O's". Thanks Chris

[/ QUOTE ]
Since this post, I've written the radiator article: http://www.camaros.org/coolingsystems.shtml

OO is a 69 BB manual tank code. F is June.

[CJP_69]

I want to thank Ed James and Bob Johnson for their efforts. After finding out through NICB that the selling dealer code was 32613, I reached out to both of them. Although Bob did not remember this particular car, Ed suggested I check the rear tail light panel for emblem holes. The panel had a red Edelbrock sticker covering the three holes. Ed brought an old Scuncio Hi Performance emblem by and it fit. It was very cool to see it back on the car after 30+ years. I feel it's a significant piece of the puzzle. The car will stay mothballed until hopefully, more history can be uncovered on it. Thanks for the responses. Chris

[427king]

[ QUOTE ]
The panel had a red Edelbrock sticker covering the three holes

[/ QUOTE ] Chris, I have about 11 of thos emblems all of mine have 2 pins,not three. Heres a pic of one of them, they are all the same though.

[HiPerf]

I have never seen one with two studs unless one is broken off,they all had three. I should know I had them made,scrape of the puddy on yours and you will see where there was three studs. Here is one of Chris's other 69 Camaros from Scuncio(he has seven of them),it also has three holes in the back.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s254/1970NOVA/020_06A.jpg

[CJP_69]

That is my race car. More like a street strip car. I purchased that car in July of 1990. It's an 04C X22 SS/RS 71B 712 interior BDY 308602 invoiced to 32613 on 04/25/69. I think the data on this car helps support the brown car. The car was a gutted race car when I bought it but it wasn't tubbed. It had a dana 60 on housing floaters with ladder bars and an aluminum head 454 with a glide. The rear quarter lips were rolled to fit a 30 inch tall slick. In 1991 I had two new gm quarters put on it and the car was put in primer. (Still have the receipt for the quarters-$500.00 for the pair) The tail light panel had charging lugs drilled in it because the car didn't have an alternator. When my body guy did the car, he repaired the lug holes but left these three other holes in the panel because he thought they were for a camaro emblem. After I found out about the brown car, I measured these holes and sure enough they matched the other car. That was then confirmed by the NICB. The car is still in primer. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Nice!!

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The panel had a red Edelbrock sticker covering the three holes

[/ QUOTE ] Chris, I have about 11 of thos emblems all of mine have 2 pins,not three. Heres a pic of one of them, they are all the same though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 11 emblems and they all have a pin broken off?

[12bolt]

Research is your first step at this point. you could not have entered a better Forum for gaining Knowledge, Friendship and a couple good arguments from time to time!! best of Luck to you!

[CJP_69]

Thanks Dave I do agree. The collective knowledge of this site is phenomenal. Hopefully some more history will come to light. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Stefano, I can't say when it's going to be restored but after seeing the handy work of the boys from SCW at Carlisle
over the past few years, when the time is right I'd love to give them a shout. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[CJP_69]

Bump for a few guys looking for the thread.