Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable? [Archive]

MotownMadman

12-11-2002, 09:21 PM

Jeff, Interesting point. I am troubled by the fact that a few years ago the judges at Bloomingtons Corvette show decided that it was acceptable to restamp a vin into an engine block as long as casting and date codes were correct and the correct stamps used in which a company in Texas leases them out for that reason. This is a subject in which there are opinions on both sides and there probebly will never be a unanimous opinion. Interesting in another post here about legal vs illegal, street racing is illegal, yet I have a document here from Ford Motor Company from 1969 which was a marketing stragegy for muscle cars, it goes into detail on how to market and promote street racing as Ford found by survey it encompassed 80% of their high performance market. How can a transmission which carries a VIN be replaced and be acceptable, yet replacing an engine that carries the same VIN not be acceptable? In my mind the only true original cars are those which have never had anything replaced with the exception of normal maintenance items such as belts, hoses, etc. When a car is restored, repainted with new weatherstips, etc, etc, is the car still original or is it an restored original? At what point does a car go from being original to being correct? I would think that a numbers matching car is just that, a car that has the original drivetrain componants wearing the original, not restamped VIN's. On the Yenko cars, when they are repainted and the stripes are replaced with aftermarket, is the car still original? In this day and age with the rarity and value of these cars, and considering all the fakes being built, the top people in this hobby should get together and come up with a survey/questioneer that asks these questions and more that the results can be used to define some guidelines and boundries for everyone to follow that will define original, correct, acceptable, and non-acceptable. The art world has similar guidelines that were defined due to the interest in the hobby and the growing rarity and value. The collector car world needs something similar to go by which answers these questions and more, something that will bring and end to the speculation and arguments once and for all, a self policeing set of rules, guidelines, or laws so to speak which govern the hobby. Just one confused collecters opinion. Motown /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

Salvatore

12-11-2002, 10:58 PM

Gentlemen, These are all tough questions. When I was restoring my 1969 Z/28,I tried to be as careful as I could on my restoration parts. The car has the original trans. and rear. The motor is not original to the car. It is a date coded CORRECT (misleading word) 302. All body panels that were replaced were replaced with used sheetmetal, except the quarters.(NOS) The interior is original except the dash pad and carpets. I would NOT in any way, call this car original. That word original to me means: Original to this car only! The only thing that I do say is that the block and sheetmetal used is all vintage date coded, and or, came on a 1969 camaro originally. Although I feel, that my car is very nicely done, it can not command the price of a true survivor car that has been restored, or partially restored with all its original parts intact. I wonder how many big dollar cars are actually restored with repro sheetmetal and other foreign items? If the vin tag and the frame rails are the only things used in the resto, it almost becomes a kit car. It really is only original once from the factory. Anybody can say numbers matching, but is it original to that car? This is why true original cars are SO hard to come by, and really do command a better price. Sam

copo9566aa

12-11-2002, 11:33 PM

The collector car world. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

The Zl1 No (1) is not restored to day one condition
It is restored to Drag Racing History condition (Gibb/Harrell)
And probably the owner of the ZL1 (1) not trade this ZL1 for
a full original restored ZL1.

Restored original History VS original restored.

Just a remark about the correct originality and value $$$$.

MotownMadman

12-11-2002, 11:56 PM

COPO9566.
I completly agree with you on that one. I would much rather have the Harrell ZL-1 as any, I am sure it is worth more than most if not all, I am sure that Bill would agree. That particular car however is not the norm for what applies to most. Somehow everyone needs to find a way to come together on these questions and differences, that would make it a more difficult world for the people building bogus cars, right now there is such a gray area on what is original, what is correct, what is acceptable and whats not... it leaves too many open doors for the people who only care about MONEY to slip through. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link...together we stand, divided we fall... This site would be the perfect place for the serious car collectors to come together and adopt a policy that stands true and accepted by those who stand the most to lose. Will GM ever release the records? I hope so, but I am not holding my breath. In the meantime it is up to the serious collectors to agree on these issues. Thanks, Motown /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

Zedder

12-12-2002, 01:04 AM

I'm with Marlin and Stefano on this one...and you can bet that if I ever bought a rebodied car and found out about it, whomever sold it to me would be getting a visit from the authorities /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

As for the COPO advertised elswhere on the site, the owner will no doubt be held responsible for that rebody at some point in the future should the car be sold. It makes no difference whether the rebody was disclosed or not to a buyer, the act is still illegal and so is owning a rebodied car that has not had a MOT issued VIN. Should that car head State-side and get inspected at the border, it would likely be confiscated. Luckily, the car is well known up here and would quickly be recognized at a cruise night or car show. I will say for whatever it is worth, it is refreshing that the owner is admitting it is rebodied, however that is a very dangerous and potentially expensive statement to make. If I were him, I'd keep the car and enjoy it for what it is.

Jeff H

12-12-2002, 01:09 AM

Truly original would only be an unrestored survivor car. Then you can use the term original to mean what the car was ordered as, ie a SS350. If the car doesn't have any codes on the trim tag or documentation to prove it's really an SS350, then you need to have the original engine to prove it, the trans won't prove it. That's why I would consider a car with the VIN matching engine original even if the trans was gone. Obviously the term means different things to everyone. You could say a 69 Yenko isn't original because the Yenko stripes were not on the car when the car was delivered. But a re-body is definitely no longer the same vehicle let alone original. We'll never get everyone to agree on what the different terms mean and that's what can lead to problems when you're dealing with a high dollar car.

AutoInsane

12-12-2002, 04:46 AM

So what would be the correct action if you had a Yenko Chevelle (for arguments sake) with a body that was beyond repair? The car would be worth saving due to its heritage but if you put on a different body that was in good shape it would be illegal and dishonest? Would the correct way to do it to replace every panel? If you save the firewall but replace everything else does it still have its 'original body'?

Is it actually illegal to put a different body onto a car? If so..why? And then I would ask again... it would be legal to change every panel but illegal to rebody? Where is the legal distinction between 'rebody' and 'replacing body panels'?

I find it interesting to read about the various Bugatti's that go up for auction. Some of them have had almost every major component replaced, albiet with parts from other original Bugattis, and are still called original. The ones that command the highest prices (often 50 to 100% more) are the ones that truely are original.

I wonder if that divergence will become more pronounced in the super car market. As of now, as far as I can see, it doesnt seem truely original cars command all that much higher prices.

MotownMadman

12-12-2002, 08:22 AM

Insane,
Your point is a valid one. This is where I had hoped this would go. I am not in favor of placing a new body to a car, however, I am trying to decide the logic in what is going on in the collector car world as of now. In an earlier post I asked a similar question, where does one draw the line? Certainly every panel on these cars can be purchased new or used, if everything other then the firewall, which carries the stamped numbers is replaced, is that then acceptable for the car to be a correctly restored original? The legal issue revolves around the alteration of any of the VIN numbers stamped into the body. In order to change the body the numbers would have to be inserted or restamped into the replacment body. As someone stated in an earlier post that would be legal if done under the supervision of law enforcement, so givin that, would a rebody be accepted in the collector car world if the car forever after carried a statement from law enforcement as to the numbers being transfered under the watchful eye of law enforcement? One of the reasons I started this post is I have a 69 pace car I bought out of Canada a few years ago that is a complete numbers matching unmolested original car, with complete history and Canadian documentation, the dilema is I have never seen a more rusted Camaro. I purchased every piece of sheet metal for the car with the exception of the cowl and firewall. Complete new floor, both quarters, two complete doors, complete trunk floor, shock towers, rear tail light panel, inner and outer wheel houses, and complete new GM dash. I have looked at this project for two years and never started it due to the fact I am at a loss as what to do. This is a original numbers matching car with documentation and history. Would the person I sold this car to be happier knowing he had a pieced together car(no matter how well its done they are never the same), or would he be happier knowing the back body shell was replaced with, say an Arizona body? Would the accepted way to be to take a perfect body and reattach the complete cowl and firewall off the original car? Is that acceptable? Back when these cars were new it wasnt unheard of to replace a complete back half of a car when totaled, they were usually cut across the floor at the rear of the rocker panel and cut right at the top of the A-Piller and sectioned together. If someone bought a collector car today and found out that had been 30 years ago, would the car then be no good? It was even a easier repair on a convertible as it was one cut across the floor right behind the drivers seats. Many were done that way, I happen to know of one very nice COPO today that had that same repair many years ago. Anybody here want to be the guy that tells him his car is no good? I for one dont want to repair the pace car in such a way that even if I told the buyer, suppose he sells the car a few years later and doesnt tell that owner, he finds out down the road and it all comes back to haunt me with civil charges and possibly criminal if I had not done the changeover under the eye of law enforement. The other possibility? Throw a perfectly original numbers matching pace car in the scrap yard and loose another piece of history? I dont think that idea would set well with anyone who is into the preservation of the history of these cars. I would be more than happy to email photos of this car to anyone for ideas and suggestions. If any of the members here were to find one of the missing ZL-1 cars that had been t-boned so bad there would be no fixing the body, but it had an all original numbers matching drivetrain with documentation, would you part the car out, or quietly go into your shop and do whatever is neccessary to fix the car. You get one with a badly bent subframe and nobody has a problem with bolting on a new subframe. I have a bigger problem with somone takes a plain jane Z-28 and adding a bunch of options and claiming as original, How would most you members rate your cars that have been restored, 30, 40, 50 percent original componants? I previously owned one of the Yenko deuce cars, I know the whereabouts of the rear end and original carburator , so when it is done it will no doubt have a restamped rear housing and carburator, when that rear end is stamped as many are, is there a noticable difference in that vs restamping the body? I would feel safe in guessing that 30 percent of the current cars in this field have had some point of the drivetrain restamped, it that legal or ethical? We all know that as these cars become older and harder to find that have more extensive deteriation, more and more of this practice will continue. This is why I believe some agreed upon guidelines should be adopted before it gets anymore out of hand. More food for thought. Motown. /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

Jeff H

12-12-2002, 01:22 PM

Motown, I think you're stuck playing the waiting game right now. This issue has come up over at www.Camaros.net (http://www.Camaros.net) in a discussion about a numbers matching 68 SS396 that has a rotted out body and the guy bought a clean 6 cyl car to swap all the components. You could buy a clean AZ car, cut your firewall and re-attach it and then proceed to restore it as the Pace Car. You can tell the guy you sell it to and he accepts it. He sells it to someone else and mentions it. Then that guy lists it for sale as all original and the next buyer is the one who buys a re-bodied car without knowing it. As great as some of these rare performance cars are, when they expire, they should cease to exist. Paperwork and documentation on a destroyed musclecar can help gather information for databases and research. The only good reason I can think of to try and resurrect a car that is gone would be for the historical value if no others like it exist. It would have to be 1 of x made where x is less than 10 ever made. I'll use the 1969 TA conv as an example. To me, the body shell is the car that goes with the VIN/Title. You change shells, and you no longer have the same car. You can change pieces on the shell to restore it back to it's former condition, but if you cut the shell in half, it's no longer the same car. And I'll add that there was a Challenger TA at the shop my car is at and it was a back-halved car. The owner had no idea until the body was stripped down. He was speechless. This is my point of view.

will

12-12-2002, 01:37 PM

I knew some one that had bought a wrecked 68 1/2 428cobrajet mustang,car was totaled.he cut the vins and surroung metal out and rewelded it to another car(Ithink vin was under the D.S.fender or something)I wonder what it makes that car out tobe ???

Unreal

12-12-2002, 07:56 PM

The hobby, and probably the law accepts the replacement of all sheetmetal, as long as the VIN area is unmodified. You can cut out and replace everything but that little portion around the VIN, and it's OK. But cut out the little portion of the VIN, and put it on another car, and you are a crook.

Said another way, If you clap by moving the right hand into the left it is OK. But don't clap by moving the left hand into the right!!

MotownMadman

12-12-2002, 08:03 PM

Very interesting anology, Hmmmm, wouldnt be the first time I had the clap.... just kidding! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif
Motown. /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

stingr69

12-13-2002, 02:31 AM

We realy only need full disclosure to identify crooks. That is where the rubber meets the road IMO. The crooks are those that knowingly do not provide full acurate disclosure of the cars specifics in order to mislead a buyer.

Move the VIN and you are a crook, end of story. There is no legitimate reason to move a VIN to a different body. Moving a VIN is a LOT easier than a full resto so it just ain't gonna ever be that easy. If it were acceptable, nobody would restore a worn out car. Tag switch would be too easy.

We can get pretty hung up on "original" but in reality we endeavour to make our cars "look" a certain way, but they will never truly be "original" again, we just try to make them LOOK and run that way.

"Repainted" is just as "un-original" as "restamped". /ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif (OH BOY, I actualy got enough courage to finaly say it). It is your car, do what ever makes you happy but don't lie about it.

Go ahead, type away!

-Mark.

hvychev

12-13-2002, 03:23 AM

I have a question that has buged me for a while now.

I had a 1979 Corvette for about 3 years that I sold in 3/01. The actual VIN plate was coroded and actually eaten away in some spots. The car was pretty original but Corvettes in that late 70's era tended to rust in the pilar area where the vin tag was located due to water or moisture that would have settled in that area. That is how I bought the car and that is how I sold it. The title, owner history, car, and #'s were perfect otherwise. What could I have done in this situation?

68l30

12-13-2002, 03:27 AM

If it's rotten,cut it out and replace it.If it's missing,find a replacement.If it's bent,straighten it.If it can be saved,by all means restore it.If it's dead.....plant it! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif If you need to switch a body you are restoring the wrong car.You are,without a doubt,going to deceive someone sometime.You will always know your cars is not what it appears.If you feel fine with duping yourself into believing this is the same car,so be it.You have to live with the legal and moral trouble to follow.I have seen several cars that are national show winners,taken rolls of film,only to find out it is a rebody. /ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif Is it a nice car? Sure, I would have loved to own it.But now, after all the smoke and mirrors, I see the car in a different light.I was fooled into believing the history,resto,and validity of everything around it.To me there is something special about the real deal,battle scars and all.Hell,I love beaters,character dents,rot everywhere,and the old peace sign on the rear bumper.I just love cars,nothing more or less.I am not into the hobby for financial reasons.I don't see the reason for a rebody other than money.I know they are out there,we just need to be wiser because of them.Remember,bury the dead.They have earned it.... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif

Steve

hvychev

12-13-2002, 03:45 AM

Well Said! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

AutoInsane

12-13-2002, 04:41 AM

What if the car is one worth saving? What if the car was a Motion Camaro, (for example) Should it be thought of too far gone to restore or should it be saved?

Almost every Ferrari ever made is still on the road. This of course is due to the value of the cars. Now there are instances where almost the entire car has been recreated. At what point is the car a replica or clone and not original?

Take a look at the 1949 Ferrari Tipo 166 for an example:

http://www.symbolicmotors.com/framesets/page2.html

MikeA

12-13-2002, 11:29 AM

If a car is worth saving then save it. Just don't rebody the car to "save it" because in reality you buried the car you were trying to "save"!

will

12-13-2002, 12:13 PM

the car that the vin# were welded to was also in need of resto,just wasn't cut in two by a pole/tree,this guy is a big ford guy and was doing every thing back to orginal(paint lines on susp,overspray)I know he had been working on it for 4 years last time I saw him(that was 8 years ago) it might not even be done now ,he wasn't building it to sell.

FESTIVAL78

12-13-2002, 01:10 PM

Hopefully this pic will post: In my town ( Historic ) people with houses on the National Historical Registry are not allowed to tear the house down no matter how bad it is. The theory I suspect is that the person who owns the house is but a temporary guardian and the history of the house will exist long after the owner is gone. All the time I find these houses being restored but all that really remains are the threshold and fireplace footing..Did Paul Revere still die in that same house? Went to check out the USS Constitution this summer...20% of the wood is original.

Take this car as a great example. By all accounts it is the backup 67 Indy Pacecar..It makes the titanic look solid. It is in my eyes a car worth saving absolutely..What may I ask are the opinions of you guys.

FESTIVAL78

12-13-2002, 01:15 PM

The car does not have an engine or trans but does have the correct rear

copo9566aa

12-13-2002, 03:12 PM

I'm working pesently on a Jeep CJ7 with a Fiberglass Tubb
I'm moving the VIN of the orginal metal body to the fiberglass body /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif
This is not a collector car.But the move is the same.
This is a legitimate reason /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif
This is acceptable or it is unacceptable
Or this is a felony.

Eh
for a girl a rebody is acceptable or unaceptable

just kidding! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Unreal

12-13-2002, 03:19 PM

Just for the record, I believe a car with replaced quarters is no longer an original car. We're not talking about original, but rather where acceptable practice stops, and unacceptable practice begins.

There is no accepted limitation to how much of a car can be replaced. The hobby says it's OK to replace the dash, where the VIN is located. Some say cut out and reweld the area around the VIN tag to the new dash panel. Same goes for the hidden partial VIN areas. It's OK to replace every other piece of the car, one piece or one "assembly" at a time.

So taken to the extreme, you have an original driveline Yenko, that was so rusty, that when you wrecked it, you destroyed every piece of sheet metal.

You pull the engine, tranny, and rear and put them aside.
Then you build a fixture to support the VIN tag area, and the two partial VIN stamp areas, and weld them to the fixture. You then cut away all the bad stuff, leaving only the three VIN areas suspended in thin air. Now you take a donor car position it where the original one was, cut out the three VIN areas, and weld the original ones in, just as you would if you were changing the dash panel, or firewall.

So, in the example above, we have not rebodied the car, we have replaced one large "assembly" /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

If that "assembly" is too big to be considered acceptable practice, and one piece at a time (or some lesser assembly) is considered acceptable, where's the line?

If you think I'm being rediculous, then I've made my point.

Belair62

12-13-2002, 03:33 PM

I think you made your point.

TimG

12-13-2002, 04:10 PM

One important note is that the Bloomington Judges did not approve restamped engines nor did NCRS. This misconception has been stated a number of times. Neither judging forum approves restamped engines or cars with replaced trim tags. They make every effort to detect these cars with the master pad library that is kept by Al Greening and the the new data on trim tags that is also kept by Al. Bloomington and NCRS both know that with the improved methods of restamping available today that they have no choice but to pass an engine if they feel it appears as typical factory configuration. Bloomington has a penalty box that states that a car may not go Gold if either the casting date, casting number, assembly code or VIN number on the block are not of typical factory configuration. If it is undetectible, it must pass unless there is prior knowledge of the engine being restamped.
NCRS will allow points for each of the areas and an engine will not be knocked out of Top Flight contention if it does not have the correct VIN, for example. NCRS gives the car owner the option of removing his car from the event if the judges smell a rat. That way the bad news is not documented on the judging sheet.
They do and will bust engines at these events as was the case at the Waco NCRS Regional a few weeks ago. I was there judging and I also presented a car for judging.
There is flexability in the judging event. I presented a 16,900 mile 1965 Corvette with an engine that had its pad reground at the factory. This was the first time for this car to be judged and I was a wreck about what would be determined. On top of this, Al Greening, master judge and trusted keeper of the master pad library was the engine judge on my car. Al looked at me during judging and said that judging my car was like a judging school for him. He took photos of my pad as an excellent example of an original factory regrind and noted on the judging sheets, "nice original engine".

Stefano

12-13-2002, 05:10 PM

Tim,
Please explain the "factory" regrind Situation as I have heard this discussed numerous times by Corvette Judges, but have yet to see an example with Camaros?

Mike

12-13-2002, 05:55 PM

Have any of you checked your casting numbers lately? I've heard horror stories of casting numbers being modified or remolded with epoxy to make them something they weren't originally!!

Give it a tap with a screw driver....see what happens! /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

Mark_C

12-13-2002, 06:16 PM

There is no such thing as a "Restored Original" car. It's one or the other. Car's are only "original" once, they can be restored as many times as needed.

This question comes around every so often, and what it really comes down to is money. Some people feel it's easier (ie cheaper) to rebody a car seen as worth a pile of dough, be it a ZL1, Motion, Nickey etc because it has some value that can be recouped in the future. Because of a perceived chance to either get your money back or make some in the process it is justifiable to the swapper. If you wouldn't invest the same time and effort to restore a 6 cylinder coupe with a powerglide and a ten bolt, your doing it for the money, in my opinion. Your not doing it for any higher calling no matter what kind of justification offered. Any car that is to far gone to be saved by component replacement should be given a proper burial.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

12-13-2002, 06:17 PM

That has certainly happened, a little tap with a screwdriver and the date code came off! Nice 'bondo' date on a 512 block.

TimG

12-13-2002, 06:35 PM

Stefano,
The factory regrinds are very interesting and there are a number of articles published by Al Greening on the subject.
When the assembly date/code was stamped on the pad at the engine assembly factory, often times there were errors made by the person hitting the gang.
Sometimes as in late 1967, they took non Corvette motors and converted them to 327/300 HP Corvette motors. The person that made the "hit" also had a powerful hand grinder available to quickly grind the surface clean and correct the error that was made or make a necessary change. This is still being done today on the engine assembly line. Speculation was that a worker may have pulled the wrong gang and incorrectly stamped a motor with the wrong code. It needed to be corrected and the procedure was to take the powerful hand grinder and within 10 seconds clean the numbers off the pad. Of course, this wipes out the broach marks and the resuting marks run most of the length of the pad. As the ID number of the car has not been hammered on the pad at this point, only part of the pad is ground. These guys did this many times in one day according to most sources and they got good at it. The traits are similar on factory regrinds, it is just hard to prove that a particular grind was done at the factory. Fortunately, my car is a very original car with the security/warranty gaskets still in place on the engine (these gaskets were only used on the assembly line and are not reproduced, this was the way Chevrolet determined if an engine had been tampered with) It becomes tough when a fuel injected car is restored and it shows up at an event with a reground pad.
Many times it is not given full points. In many cases people shy away from a pad that has been ground and restamped at the factory. With the master pad library, it is possible to compare a stamp on an engine with a stamp on an engine in a similar range to see if the stamps are similar. When I found my car, I was hesitant to buy it because of the grind, but after inspecting the car I thought it may be an asset as it had to happen at the factory. There were many master judges and photographers looking at the pad all weekend. Some may say it's silly although I really enjoy these unusual things about cars.
And yes, some casting numbers, dates are done with epoxy and these do not last long when a block is cleaned. What a mess.

68TopStock

12-14-2002, 05:19 AM

This post reminds me of a childs bedtime story, about a toy bunny that wanted to become "real". When it had become worn out, and thown out, it magically became "real". All a big fantasy. That is my humble opinion regarding "rebody restorations".

70 copo

12-14-2002, 11:51 AM

If the position is taken that if it is "dead then bury it" then ANY repair that would render the vehicle inoperable could be considered non repairable. You guys with re- stamped blocks, trannys, and rears... You know who you are!

The rebody issue is simply the extreme of saving the remaining cars that are out there. How are one of these cars properly saved? NOS GM sheet metal? How many parts can be replaced before the car should die? one floor? two floors? one quarter panel? both? One of the ZL-1's that were restored over a decade ago had almost all of the sheet metal removed excluding the driveshaft tunnel. The point that I am making here is that after reading this string of posts this topic is clearly about "rarety and not getting ripped off". It seems that those of us with the nice cars are perhaps overly concerned with maintaining market value. There are extremes on both sides of this opinion.

Many of the fighter aircraft recovered after WW2 currently on display were put together from several different planes- yet when assembled they clearly represent a completed example of that type of aircraft. Again-rarity is the issue here. Rarity drives the desireability of an item higher. If the desireability is high (and this web site clearly drives that) - the remaining material that is out there will be built up into functional equipment. Those of us with these cars begin this process by paying big dollars for desireable cars, which drives the remaining junk values in to the range where it becomes viable to do a "rebody". As long as the price is high, desireability is high, we will have the major component replacement issue. Interiors, Blocks, entire drive trains, major sections of the body sheetmetal - or entire bodys from the firewall back. Bottom line buyer beware- know what you are buying and be happy with it! /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Unreal

12-14-2002, 01:37 PM

68TOPSTOCK,
You're right about the bedtime story. And just as bedtime story tellers don't all tell the same story the same way, hobbiests/businessmen interpret the "acceptable" restoration process differently. Sometimes that interpretation is a justification for their personal situation.

If I had a rust free all original Yenko, I might argue that only rust free all original Yenkos are "real" ones.

If I had one with rusty quarters, I might argue that it's OK to replace quarters and still have a "real" one.

If I had a total rust bucket, I might argue that rebody is OK.

But since I have a clone (I actually prefer Brian's "Tribute car" term but I dont want to appear to be legitamizing clones), I argue that it's not real, but it's not a fraud, either.

Jeff H

12-14-2002, 03:38 PM

If you need another body to save your car, how come you're not saving the other body instead? Because it's a plain old, base car.

MotownMadman

12-14-2002, 05:07 PM

Jeff, that is the point. I am not discussing for or against a rebodie being acceptable, I am just trying to look at the big picture here. Nobody wants to take the time or spend the money to restore a plain jane car. To justify a high dollar restoration on most accounts it has to do with rarity. However, I have known cases where someone has invested all the time and money in a plain jane car for sentimental reasons, but in most cases it is for rarity. I would think there are two reasons to do a rebodie. First, you have a car which may need quarters and floor pans, and maybe a trunk pan. This is expensive and time consuming, real expensive for someone having the work done. In this case the body is in my opinion being a bodyman, an easy fix. I would certainly not even consider a rebodie in this case, I would just fix what I had and move on. For the person who would do a rebodie here, it is simply about money, money, money. That I find to be dead wrong. Now lets look at the second scenario, you have a rare car, lets say every panel on the car is rusted badly, including the firewall and dash. Two ways to go here, replace every panel including the firewall and dash, which in essence when you are done what have you got, a new body. In this case I may go along with a rebodie if it were a rare enough car, ZL-1 etc. What it comes down to is this. We have no problem with changing a front fender on one of these cars, so what is the difference between a front fender and a quarter panel? None with the exception of how it attaches. One bolts and one welds. Difference between a inner front fender and inner rear fender? The way it attaches, and so on and so on. We have to remember that the bodies we are discussing here in the beginning were nothing more than a collection of parts that were assembled into a whole. No different then a front clip on a car, it is removeable in one piece, so it in itself is the front half of a car body. We have no problem with replacing one piece, fender vs quarter, etc etc, or if needed we replace the entire thing, which in that respect has no difference then replacing the entire rear half. If we are going to argue against a rebodie, it is then going to have to be unacceptable to replace any panel that is welded on, quarters, floors, etc. Once it becomes acceptable to start replacing welded on panels, it does not make any sense to say, "Ok, stop, you have gone far enough". If one is ok, then all is ok. I am not saying I agree with a rebodie, what I am coming around to is it has to be all or none as where is the imaginairy line that you cant cross. In one post here someone had said something about burying a dead car, yet in another section of this forum he had urged someone to buy the X-race car Mighty Mouse off E-Bay and save it. That car would need every panel on the body, or a different body. We even argue with ourselves about this issue. Nobody wants to see a rebodie, yet nobody wants to see an important piece of history gone forever either. None of us in this hobby has the right to tell anyone else what to do with their car, no more then we want to be told. On the other hand, no one has the right to intentionally decieve anyone else, unfortunatly a lot of deception is occuring in this hobby. But, here is the key. We live in America, or Canada, same freedoms, which gives us the right to choose what we do with ours cars, homes, etc, etc, with that comes the right to choose what we buy from someone else. I personally would never buy a restored car unless the car came with step by step photographs of the restoration, before, during, and after so that I know what I am buying, and if the person who ends up buying the car from me requires seeing the same photos before he buys, well he has chosen to know what he is buying. Anybody who wants to spend the big money on buying a restored car should be smart enough to make a informed decision on what they are buying, no body is forcing anyone else to buy their car. With the exception of the true original survivors left, a great deal of the restored cars have had major componants replaced on them, whether the current owners know it or not, or if they admit it or not. We have the right to choose, I choose not to buy a car with a rebodie, but I also choose to replace every panel on a car if I believe it is a piece of history worth saving. However, when I do a restoration (I have done a great deal)I do take photographs, or video of every process that leaves my shop with the car. I started this thread as a survey of sorts, it has went where I expected, not many of us are comfortable with a rebodie, yet at the same time we are not comfortable with others telling what to do with our cars either. In this hobby today, just make sure of what you are buying, and if you are not sure get an expert to look at it. If the car has a recent restoration and the owner dosent have photos, ask yourself why? More food for thought. Thanks, Motown /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

copo9566aa

12-14-2002, 05:39 PM

Great post /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

68l30

12-14-2002, 06:52 PM

Here's some more food for thought.......How do you explain that feeling you'd have watching that Yenko,ZL-1,COPO,Motion,Nickey ect. car leave your driveway headed for the scrap yard? That feeling would describe, what I believe, most would feel about a rebody.There goes the real deal!I know people that save the old sheet metal just cause it's original to there car,$hit or not.Personally I don't feel bad about changing a quarter,been there done that.Watching a Harrell body ride off to become dust...well that's something I hope I'll never see...

Steve

Jeff H

12-14-2002, 07:11 PM

Obviously this discussion is looking for opinions on how people perceive these cars and their restorations. I'll say that in my opinion, there is a difference between a rebody and replacing welded metal like quarter panels. If you damaged your car back in 69, the dealer would replace the damaged panel and repaint the area to match. That has been an accepted practice for a long time. If you damaged the entire body, the car was totalled, you weren't given a new body to put all other parts on. Saving a rusted out or severly damaged body on a rare car is a difficult and expensive task and it helps preserve the history of these cars. We all know there are people doing rebodies and back-halving cars so they can make a buck. I won't buy one of these cars and I'm sure most of the people here wouldn't either. But I see no problem with replacing rusted or damaged panels or body parts. It's no different than replacing other maintenance items like radiator hoses, spark plug wires. But the way I see it, the body shell is the actual car that the VIN and title go with. I sure wish we could get some more people to add their thoughts to this discussion. I don't expect everyone to agree, but it always helps to hear other thoughts.

whitetop

12-14-2002, 08:11 PM

I have no problem with a rebody as long as the original cars body was totally 100% unsalvagable. I don't mean tubbed cars either which i consider very salvagable. But the ones where literaly every panel needs replaced even the roof. Here is how I look at it: I would rather have a original rust free body that was welded together by the workers on the assembly line circa '69 that has it's original sheet metal versus a car having 90% of it's original sheetmetal replaced by new GM sheetmetal that was made last year and welded together in some body shop somewhere.
Dave

sixtiesmuscle

12-14-2002, 08:20 PM

Jeff, maybe the reason more people aren't sharing their thoughts is that we beat this subject to death about a year ago. The result? Similar to now. Differing opinions about how much is "too much", but, a pretty fair agreement that the body shell, and intact firewall seem to carry the "soul" of the car. I don't remember ANYONE believing that a "rebody" [replacement body] was acceptable. You can not have tags & title, apply them to another serial number car, and, have a genuine car. You have a nice, but fraudulent, car. At least I THINK that's how it ended, but, if not, I'm sure we'll hear what others thought.

SS427

12-14-2002, 08:41 PM

On Friday, I received a call from another sYc BB member asking my opinion on this very question since I had been restoring cars for 26 years. I have done many cars over those years though I can honestly say I have never rebodied a car. I have however, had to replace a lot of sheet metal. 70 copo brought up a point that was the same point brought up with the sYc member that contacted me.

I was recently involved with a complete restoration of a WWII P-51C fighter that had been recovered from the basement of a Vo Tech school. The wings had been cut off with a cut off saw so they could move it there. Much of the aluminum skin was either too badly corroded or damaged to salvage. The long story short, this airplane received a 10 year plus restoration at a cost far exceeding $2,000,000. The final outcome was to be one of two currently flying P51B's in the world and carries the paint scheme of the Tuskegee airman on it's skin. For those of you who don't know, this was an all black squadron who protected our B-17 pilots overseas. While in their care, not a single B-17 was lost to enemy fire.

When I am at an airshow with the aircraft, there is nothing that can compare to seeing a 70 plus year old man break down in tears upon seeing the plane and completing coming unglued when offered a ride in the back seat. I give my personal qaurantee not one of these men gives a rats a$$ about what original sheet metal is on that airplane only that it brought back some very fond and deeply buried memories and they finally receive some of the gratification they have longed for. They care nothing about the current monetary value of the plane but only it's historic value. This airplane is valued at many millions of dollars today regardless to the fact that very little of it is original besides it's airframe certification and identification numbers and some misc hardware.

Some of our cars have the same effect on people at shows that these aircraft do. I have had many people come up to me over the years and thank me for sharing a piece of their childhood with them. They cared little about it's originality only the significant role it played in their life.

The moral of this story is that I do not condone nor do I participate in rebodying and/or restamping a car but would not feel much differently about a car if I knew the facts. Yes the car would be worth less but are these pieces of history not worth saving as at least a replica and not to bury those memories along with the car. This is just one man's opinion.

68TopStock

12-14-2002, 08:52 PM

This is a crucial point, a rebody is done mainly to save money, and or time, which to most is money. Extremely valuable cars (original shells) have been thrown away because of the "rebody" philosophy. We all know and agree most if not all cars can be saved, given time and meticulous work. To replace an entire floor and quarters on a rare piece can take 200-300 hours, if you perform it with factory spot weld removal and factory seam panel placement. Why do GM NOS panels cost so much? Because there is value to originality.

To all members:

I will gladly come pick up the remains of all the rebody ZL1's, COPO's, Yenko's, Motions, Harrell's etc. and will even come and pick up all those worthless bodies free of charge. Even without titles. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Stefano

12-14-2002, 08:57 PM

It seems that even just proof of ownership or interest in a particular rare/desirable/historic vehicle , sometimes with no regard to originality ,is and has been accepted by the "Hobby' as a whole, just to varying degrees.

In my opinion the rebody phenomenon became prevelant with Vintage Road race cars many years ago, where the chassis numbers and tags were needed to establish a pedigree for a certain venue, Such as Historic Auto Racing. Some of these cars were resurrected with just a tag and no title and visa versa and this became acceptable as it secured the vehicles "spot" in history.

Questions arise when a Rebody is missrepresented and when market values are taken into account.

We have referred to 'The Shelby World Registry' which has long ago found it necessary to define various types of similar situations , which we are currently discussing.

I for one, feel betrayed when a particular vehicle is held out in the public eye as one thing, but in trun is actually something else. /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

T Billigen

12-14-2002, 09:01 PM

Hey SS427, I would sure love to see that "Red Tail"!!!

SS427

12-14-2002, 10:56 PM

http://www.cafsmw.org/smw-images/aircraft/p51c.jpg

Sorry, I said P51B earlier when it is actually a P51C. Sleep deprivation again. /ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif The B/C configuration is the same airplane, just depended on which plant is was built in as well as some other minor details. Off topic but definitely a piece of historic value no different than our cars.

NEW

12-14-2002, 11:13 PM

Rebody, is not acceptable to me.
However changing welded panels is okay when done correct
and using correct parts.
It is 30 + years old cars, and i think that you just have to live with the fact that the wear and tear on most of the cars still alive sometimes make you have to change a quarter or some other body parts.

But a rebody is a big no no to me,

MotownMadman

12-15-2002, 01:34 AM

SS427,
Would love to see that plane, my brother does that for a living, he recently finished restoring a 1947 Hawker Sea Fury which I had a ride in.... What A Rush! Motown /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

Leonard

12-15-2002, 02:02 AM

Original vs Correct? ..take a valuable car such as a 69 ZL-1 or Yenko Camaro. Its a basket case. If This car is going to be restored, it is no longer original. So, we must restore it to be correct. With restoration cost not being an issue, how should we do this restoration? A) a complete body panel replacement restoration except firewall using GM panels (not installed or assembled at the GM assy line) or B) a re-body (a 69 rust free body assembled by GM at the assy line). As for the donor car for the re-body, it was a assigned a VIN and body # also. IMO the VIN and Body # is not exclusive to the body they are applied to. As far as the COPO being restored, the body is not a 1 of 1 built for that drive train. What if.. Don Yenko submitted his order for the first 50 COPO's 2 weeks later. Would these cars have the same VIN and body #s ? I am not for or against a rebody being acceptable. I am stating my opinion on what i would be comfortable with if i should purchace a car that i knew had went thru a complete body restoration. I would much rather have a re-body. I feel it would be more correct. Just my opinion.

MotownMadman

12-15-2002, 04:30 AM

I find this entire thread to be absolutly amazing. In the hobby of the art world all the experts and collectors agree on how art should be restored. In the antique world, for the most part all the experts and collectors agree on how and what is acceptable in a restoration, In the stamp and coin world and on and on....Most of all hobbies are in agreement. In the collector car world... we have experts and collectors at both ends of the spectrum, and both ends present a worthwhile and justifiable argument... Hmmmm....
Thanks, Motown /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

hvychev

12-15-2002, 06:12 AM

Wow, Rick Nelson I have never thought about this subject in relation to the way you compared it to the WWII veterans. Im sure that it was an emotional thing for them due to the circumstances. Good point.

I guess it is a situation like when my father sees a 55 Chevy done in a late 60's "day 2" fashion. It stirs memories of a better and simpler time when he had one back then. I guess he wouldn't care if it had the original pannels or not. It would just be the point of seeing somthing that was an importiant part of your past. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

68TopStock

12-15-2002, 06:23 AM

The rebody phenomenon must have started with some young 20 something begining auto repair guys, who did not know how to trim, fit, and weld. It has just grown now into an accepted practice, and sold as a clean bill of goods to the unsuspecting general musclecar buyer. This will gaurantee the original body cars will become more valuable as time goes on.

GM perserved our cars with lots of anti-corrosion processes, to help the major internal structures survive. It is these internal structures that make the car usually restorable. Has anyone received a call from the FBI?

68TopStock

12-15-2002, 06:45 AM

SS427,

Those warbird restorations are in a league of their own. We must realize new components are replacing the originals due to safety concerns, and strict enforcement of the FAA airframe inspection standards. People die when components fail in these old birds.

Have you been up to Mary Jane field? A number of nice a/c reside there. Have a friend restoring an A25 for the AF Museum. Mustang round up is fun, and they are not ferds!

All said and done, the nostalgia bug hits all generations, we are fortunate to have such an active and interesting hobby with our cars.

MotownMadman

12-15-2002, 06:49 AM

68topstock, I would hope you are not referring to me as having a motive of trying to get a certain way of thinking accepted, I am not for a rebody as a general rule, I have restored these cars twenty years and never done one yet. I am more for getting everyone on one way of thinking to weed out the people who are decieving others with fraudulent cars. The way to stop that type of activity is to make everyone aware of how to make the fraud more difficult, such as the discussion about photographs in one of my earlier posts. Some good arguments have been made here on both sides of the issue, for and against, rebodys are going to happen no matter what, but if people are aware the only person who will end up owning one is someone who knows they own one or knows they are buying one. Awareness is the key.
Motown. /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

68TopStock

12-15-2002, 07:17 AM

MM,

I was not referring to anyone, just voicing my opinion. I hope you realize that when a body is switched, it is not the car it was. What happens to the "leftover" car body?
Anyone care to admit to what they are storing for future use?

I have heard of valuable cars undergoing this process, and the equally hard to understand "cowl clip". It is just that eventually the car will be sold as the "real deal", when it was orginally a 6 cylinder car body, with its own unique serial numbers stamped on it. Any changes to the VIN stamping and I think it would be considered fraudulant, to a reasonable thinking individual. Hasn't this been covered before?

How many of the restorers who have conducted a rebody, have admitted it, and signed an affadavit to this effect to go along with the cars paperwork? If not, why? It seems this is becoming an accepted practice and so common, what is there to fear? /ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif

MotownMadman

12-15-2002, 07:47 AM

68TS
If you notice through this entire thread I have not taken either opinion, for or against, as I welcome an honest opinion from everyone on this issue, that tends to be difficult if the person giving the opinion feels like they are on the defensive. Would I personally own a rebodie? At this point it has never happened as a car important enough in history has not came my way yet with the body in such a condition that I had to make the decision that the only way to save it would be give it a new body. Maybe its because I am real good at what I do and I have never yet found a body I couldnt fix. But the average person if having to pay for the countless hours of work I have put into certain cars would be cost and logic prohibitive. So I suppose it does come back to money. I havent faced it because I havent had to pay for the work, if I did there are some cars that I may have considered for a new body. Thats honesty. We are never 100% sure of what we are going to do until we are in whatever situation it may be thats calls for a tough decision. Is a rebodie acceptable? For me I guess the answer would be no. For others? Thats back to freedom of choice. You and I may never find it acceptable, but we will still have to accept it for what it is, reality. We love our cars. Whenever you combine love with money there are going to be problems. Most people will do anything they have to in order to keep something or someone they love, then add protecting the bank account on top of that? With those elements, collector cars will do doubt get different bodies, so for the guys who dont believe in it all we can do is protect ourselves by being aware of it. Many people in this hobby are not even comfortable talking about it, as long as its kept quiet the more likely it is to happen. Discussions like this get people talking about it, thinking about it, and bringing it out in the open where it is less likely to happen without someone knowing about it. The wonders of communication. By the way, beautiful car you own, keep the history alive.
Thanks,
Motown /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

70 copo

12-15-2002, 11:36 AM

Motown,

Amazed... at how long a simple issue like this goes on and on. In my opinion when ANY significant part of the car has to be replaced - it is no longer the car that came off the assembly line. There are also levels of comfort with individual owners and buyers. They have to decide what they will accept and buy. The buyer and the market drives who pays what - and what is saleable.

Gentlemen, this is what we all collectively call a "restored" car.

As for the FBI and legal issues.. attempting to beat this dead horse further is like trying to regulate rules for the bedroom. The goverment has tried this and look stupid each time. As for cars, the FBI historically had a track record of coming after the large scale late model chop shops- where the "real" money was - and lately the salvage title and multiple hidden VIN stampings on late model autos, used car crash histories, and insurance tracking-has really made this a non issue with them. Now the issue today is the tracing of stolen parts and the export of stolen cars and parts. Back to the old stuff - (on a camaro as an example) As every one knows the lower front fire wall attaches at a spot welded seam in the front of the floors. Further, the top of the cowl is also spot welded at the top of the body cowl in the front. As I recall you could order almost every part of the body from GM except a very few body parts. As I remember the critical ones that you could not get was the front cowl and the D/S tunnel, Most other parts could be ordered from GM-new. As an example-on most cars prior to salvage titles there was big money to be made when a car got hit hard in the rear. The practice was to find a donar car and "clip" the entire rear. When these cars began to fail after repair- is when the goverment got in to the act and regulated rebuilders with salvage titles. But now hear this... the goverment has not been completly out of the picture. As many may recall goverment ordered scrappage programs have been operating in several states for quite some time to allow industry to buy back pollution credits.
this legislation also had an additional side effect of further drying up the old car parts market which some of us call a "parts car". It is up to the buyer and the seller to police this hobby. Bottom line buyers need information if the seller is deceptive,or the work on any part of the restored car is shoddy. Again buyer beware. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

toner

12-15-2002, 01:56 PM

?? The value of 2 restored cars. Supercar A has all major body panels replaced and repainted, it no longer has original sheet metal. Supercar B was cut at the A pillar and where the floor meets the cowl, then has a rust free body attached, car B now has factory built original sheet metal, would it not be more correct then one with replaced indivdual panels?
toner

sixtiesmuscle

12-15-2002, 02:02 PM

NO!

T Billigen

12-15-2002, 02:26 PM

I second that!!!!

COPO PETE

12-15-2002, 02:51 PM

I kind of view it as if a car was human. If a person is sick or gets in an accident, and gets a new heart, eyes, kidney, whatever.... does he or she become the person that the parts came from...... Nope! I think it is real important to take lots of picture as well. When I restore a car, I take pictures all the way along. So in the event I sell it, the buyer can see how good it was, or how bad it was. And if it was bad, they need to see it was fixed properly. I don't go for restamps as I feel you are really trying to fool someone. I've had offers to restamp stuff on my cars, but when you own a collection of any size, if you get caught restamping, everything you own becomes a question mark. I've put "IF" wheels on a car till I could find "XT's" It's interesting because it has happened where someone is contacted because they found the original motor for their car..... and it's supposedly already in the car. Wow, that car came with two motors!!!!
Peter /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

shor

12-15-2002, 02:56 PM

I think Pete is trying to say that cars have souls!

70 copo

12-15-2002, 04:30 PM

Toner,

The debate goes on... At first the answer for most is NO.

But...

Original factory quarters are date coded on the inside where they meet the trunk. If the dates are inconsistant with the build of the car then that is a dead givaway that the car has been requartered. The point that I am making here is that if a guy goes to enough trouble to fake an expensive car then the doner rebody will have original sheetmetal - that will pre-date the build of the car that is being re bodied - in a manner consistant with production timeframes for the build of the original car.

Again-- Buyer beware. the buyer has to know what it is that he/she is buying. Research is the most important part here. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

SuperNovaSS

12-15-2002, 05:20 PM

I've been being quiet on this one just to get an idea of what everybody else thought about this. A rebody is definetly a last resort but I think in some cases it may be necessary. However, when it is done it should definetly have a direct effect on the value and desirability of the vehicle. How do you guys feel about what was done to this ZL-1?: www.69zl1.com (http://www.69zl1.com)
This is a great thread and I hope everyone will put in their opinion so we can get a general idea of the opinion in the hobby as a whole.

Jason

Keith Tedford

12-15-2002, 06:29 PM

If you are spending any large amount of money on a car, you should get a signed total disclosure statement from the seller. Otherwise, you may just be the one trying to explain the restamped engine, and rebody after you have sold the car. Pleading ignorance won't cut it. A ton of pictures during the restoration will pay big dividends down the road. Once a Chevelle is built, it is a devil of a time to pull the heater box to show someone the hidden VIN stamp. Not too many sellers will be willing to do that. At least with having the car restored, you know exactly what you have and the car can be documented to death in the process. Buying a finished car can be a real crap shoot.

whitetop

12-15-2002, 08:15 PM

ATTN: 68TS, Sixties muscle, Toner, & Motown Madman

The '69 ZL-1 in the pics posted by Supernovass has a pristine body in my eyes. It would be childs play to fix to what I've seen in my area. Where I come from the cars got winter salt baths + worse yet, fallout from the many steel/industrial plants. Years ago when the pollution was bad I would see cars that were 1-2 years old have the paint totally stripped off by rust.I have seen cars in junyards that 100% of ALL PANELS need replaced due to the fall out from the mills. Some of the cars have litteraly collpased (imploded) to where the cowls/roofs etc have caved in due to major structural rust. I have seen inner quarter side panels that the rear quarter window regulator bolts to have rusted out holes 16-20". I have seen rusted out holes in roofs by the upper windshield trim, not bottom, that go back 4-5"-clear open space. Not to mention rusted out cowls. Even the pillar the door hinges bolt to are totaly gone and the inner cowl structure has rusted away as well. You guys tell me you will try to replace these panels? No way. The car would have to be junked or rebodied. I really wonder how many posters that are against rebodying would not rebody if the car was one of the missing ZL-1's or 1 of 7 Hemi Cuda convertibles. I personally would not rebody a car because that's not my cup of tea but can see the reasons why some would. Sometimes it is not a question of time or money but the impossibility of redoing the car regardless of what one of the posters said above.
Dave

70 copo

12-15-2002, 08:17 PM

Jason,

The guy doing this car clearly has the details worked out.

Is it a rebody? I would say so. In the end will the car be fixed in a manner fitting a car of its fame? Clearly yes as this car also passes the full disclosure test- and any future buyers will know exactly what they are getting. Only 69 of these monsters made. Cool car. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

MotownMadman

12-15-2002, 08:48 PM

Whitetop, As I stated earlier I have never done a rebodie, yet I would not rule it out if the situation called for a extremely rare car and no other way to fix it. As for the ZL-1 in the link? That body is a piece of cake to fix, I have personally fixed many worse as I also live in the salt belt, and the pollution in Detroit in the seventies I can assure you was just as bad if not worse than Ohio. COPO Pete made a good point...when you get a new heart you do not become the other person. As for the FBI mentioned earlier on in this thread, believe me they have bigger fish to fry then a guy trying to save or restore his classic car. I will not go into the details on how I know that, but I do have experience with law enforement at the federal level. It all comes back to buyer awareness and what the owner and/or buyer is comfortable with, but I would not buy a high dollar restored car without a complete photo record.
Motown /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

toner

12-15-2002, 09:21 PM

From the pics I would say they removed MORE then what was needed to restore the ZL 1 back to original. This route was easier then welding in indivdual pieces, but to extreme for this car.
toner

69rsss350

12-16-2002, 12:36 AM

Many prominent board members have chosen not to voice their opinion on this thread, wonder why? /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

Keith Tedford

12-16-2002, 01:36 AM

Anyone who has come from the street rod building world into the muscle car world wouldn't think twice about rebodying a car. This business has been going on forever without a second thought where they come from. The rebody in itself added little to the value of the car other than the fact that you would have solid metal to work with. In the muscle car world different things matter and different rules apply. Specific models, engine options etc are a couple of examples of what can add greatly to the value of the car. It might just take some time and a few court dates before these guys learn the new rules.

MotownMadman

12-16-2002, 02:07 AM

Anybody got a rule book? I beat a guy once in Detroit in a high dollar street race who said it wasnt fair because he couldnt hear to shift his car after I pulled a cable to uncap my headers. Everybody there got a chuckle out of it when somebody asked him to see the rule book on street racing. I made one of the "Street Freaks" issues of Car Craft in the seventies for having one of the fastest cars on the steets, long before Pro Street was born. The only official rules I know of when it comes to restorations are moral ones. if the intention of the restorer is to decieve someone then that would definetly be breaking the rules. As I have stated numerous times I dont agree with a rebody, the purpose of this thread was to be awareness as to ways to protect from buying something that is not what it is represented to be. That goes back to having a photo record of every restoration, just a different type of documentation. The real crime in the collector car world these days is the guy who takes a plain jane Chevelle and passes it off as an SS, which from what I have been reading in earlier posts here can be done. We have to remember that a lot of these cars are restored not for resale, but for the owners enjoyment, in which case no one has a right to tell the guy how to restore his car. If he does end up selling it for whatever reason and gives the new owner full disclosure who buys it anyway....well so be it. If that guy sells it and doesnt tell the next guy... well than they both are at fault, the seller for being decietful, and the buyer for not being smart enough to investigate what he is spending his money on. Yes, I do build street rods, which really has nothing to do with this discussion, as I was also driving a 69 427 Camaro in 1972, a car which I bought wrecked and fixed using its original body. I was collecting muscle cars when everybody else was throwing them away due to the gas and insurance crisis, and I owned a Yenko when their owners were peeling the stripes because nobody liked them. With respect to my background I believe I am somewhat qualified to have an opinion on this issue, as with most if not all of the other members here. Motown /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

69rsss350

12-16-2002, 02:45 AM

You might get more respect (?) if we knew your name not just your handle. There is a place to post it in your profile. If you choose to remain anonymous, expect nothing.

MotownMadman

12-16-2002, 03:09 AM

Mike, I wont use this forum as a method of personal attacks, I sent you a PM to explain my position.
Thanks,
Motown /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

68TopStock

12-16-2002, 03:48 AM

Being in the healthcare industry makes me chuckle about the reference comparing a car body to the human body. When a heart transplant patient receives a new heart, he isn't included in the family lineage of the donor is he? Maybe someday some donor recepient will sue for inheritance because he is a part of the family tree (in his opinion).

Just because a vin tag or oe stamped block is put in a new body, does not make it the car it is supposed to appear as. The original one is dead and hopefully buried. Unless of course you believe in reincarnation! /ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif

AutoInsane

12-16-2002, 04:16 AM

I think it is extremely hypocritical for a person to adamantly say that a rebody is a terrible thing yet whole heartedly support changing every body panel on the car. The idea that the same guys who turn up their noses at a rebody would happily buy a car with almost nothing original left of the body.

Now I could understand if a person were to think a car with all original sheet metal was fine and acceptable and the unacceptable was a car with any non original sheet metal.

What is the difference between a car with new fenders, hood, floors, quarters, trunk and maybe repair around the windshield and rear window and a car that has been rebodied?

You have to think one way or another: non original sheet metal is fine or it isnt.

What's next? Will the worth of a collector car be based on the percentage of original sheet metal? 'That Yenko has 64% of it's original sheet metal so it's worth more than the one with 48% of it's original sheet metal'.......

Zedder

12-16-2002, 12:44 PM

It's not a matter of hypocricy at all...

"What is the difference between a car with new fenders, hood, floors, quarters, trunk and maybe repair around the windshield and rear window and a car that has been rebodied? "

Simple: It is LEGAL to change out body panels. It is ILLEGAL to rebody a vehicle. Choose the latter and be prepared to face the consequences should a future purchaser find out about the rebody. And it makes no difference if you tell the next subsequent buyer that you rebodied a car. The felony is committed by the person who tampered with the vehicles VIN. Subsequent owners are at risk of losing the vehicle despite not having been party to the actual tampering since ignorance of the felony is not acceptable in court. Don't believe me? Ask the the guy who lost his Black '69 L78 Nova in Ontario a few years ago because a previous owner rebodied the car. I know there were law suits involved but do not know the outcome.

What I find shocking is that so many owners openly talk about their vehicles being rebodied. I had a guy tell me about his '69 COPO Chevelle a few years ago and another fellow called me about 6 months ago trying to sell his rebodied '67 Z-28. What part of ILLEGAL don't these guys understand?

And what about all those beautiful rust free Canadian cars with "GM Canada documentation" that everyone is so hot about? Give me a break, I owned over 20 early Camaros in the mid '70's and every one of them needed rust repair big time. Also know that many a "rust free shell" has crossed the border into the great white North. Buyer beware...

MotownMadman

12-16-2002, 12:54 PM

Mark, As I stated repeatedly, I am not in favor of a rebody, I am just going back and forth with the what ifs. A rebody is legal if you are doing it without tampering with the VINS, example, the entire body is replaced with the exception of the firewall cowl area, or as stated by someone else earlier that had changed the dash and had legal supervision whild doing so. It is illegal to tamper vin a vin for obvious reasons, but it is not illegal to replace a cars body.Motown /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

Zedder

12-16-2002, 01:53 PM

Motown, I'm not making my comments to you or anyone else in particular - just stating my thoughts on the matter. As for a rebody being legal from the cowl back - not in Ontario! I bought a wrecked 67 RS/SS a few years ago and it came with another stripped rust free shell - both tags and titles came with the cars. The seller gave me the story about having the police or Ministry of Transport, Ontario "supervise" the VIN removal and reinstallation on the new shell. I called the MTO and the OPP and they told me that this was not true and that the only way to do this was to have a salvage title issued for the "new" combined vehicle. I took the liberty to ask about the practice of changing out the firewall and cowl pieces that so many do up here and I was told that this was ILLEGAL because the donor shell was, and I quote, "more substantial" than the cowl piece. I was left with the impression that it is ok to back half a car, but that's it.

BTW Motown, I've sent you two private emails recently with no reply. Doesn't the address listed in your profile work?

MotownMadman

12-16-2002, 02:06 PM

Mark, I cant seem to send you a PM, try [email protected],
Thanks,
Motown

Jeff H

12-16-2002, 02:56 PM

I don't think anyone is aiming their comments at anyone in particular, I think it's a good discussion with people expressing their own views. I'm sure there are legal repercussions regarding a rebody where the VIN is actually tampered with. I'm not an expert on that so I can't clarify. But I definitely think there is a big difference between a rebody(using another car's shell) and replacing body panels on the actual car in question. If you say that replacing body panels is not acceptable, then the only legit cars out there are the ones that were never driven and still have their original metal and paint. Replacing body panels is an accepted form of automobile repair, regardless if it's a muscle car or a Honda Accord. A car that has all its original metal and paint is going to be worth more to a certain group of people and the car that has had new panels and new paint is going to be worth more to another group of people. To each his own and I would love to own an original unrestored car, an original restored car and a modern high tech street car. Make them all 69 Camaros though! /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

12-16-2002, 03:22 PM

69ssrs350;
Many of us are just following along with the discussion because we have talked about this before. So, we find it interesting to see what the latest round of opinions are. It's a tough topic, and I think the conclusions will be similar to the last time we covered this area.

I think I remember the line was crossed when somebody other than GM put some stamps into a gangholder, and started hitting panels or engine items.

tom406

12-16-2002, 07:49 PM

I think there's a couple of reasons you're seeing less than full participation on this topic. Because its obviously a topic everyone has an opinion on, so I know people are thinking, if not always posting.

As its been said the topic has been explored before, and many don't wish to re-tread their views. Another very valid point was brought up by COPO PETE, who apparently hasn't restamped any of his cars for fear of shedding doubt on his other cars. The same is true for opinions, I believe. If a prominent member of this board decided to advocate any sort of rebody-ing activity, even though he chose not to collect those cars, the integrity of his vehicles would likely come into doubt, so there is little to gain (few opinions are going to be swayed), and quite a bit to lose (whether its $$ value or perceived "integrity" of their collection).

For others, like me, its kind of a professional decision. Since I work in the business of collector cars, its not fair to my employer to have my opinions color the perception of his decade-old business, which he built without me. I chimed in last time, and didn't think it was fair to him after I reflected on it. Again, this emotional issue ends up with issues of integrity and perception.

And while I can understand how many have attempted to use the law to lend structure to this issue, I believe its to little avail. Most of us who have had to deal with out of state inspections and unusual registration scenarios know that there is no hard and fast rule to be found. 90% of the time its the discretion of whatever inspector you come up against, and their common sense, knowledge of the hobby, and whether they had a fight with their spouse the night before and want you to pay for it. Most of the opinions of this thread have been expressed with more clarity than the interpretations of laws I have seen from the state and federal law enforcement personnel. (MY OPINION. Again, my employer does it all by the book, even when they penalize him for trying to play fair, and when he has to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to chase his own tail. /ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif )

jon rand

12-16-2002, 11:02 PM

I have built alot of chevy trucks with southern cabs and was always told by state law enforcement to attach the old VIN to the new cab. Just my $ .02 's

JChlupsa

12-16-2002, 11:45 PM

https://www.asc.wpafb.af.mil/museum/

69rsss350

12-17-2002, 01:34 AM

Marlin, I submit that there are much more $ignificant reasons why they are not participating in this thread. Truth always prevails.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

12-17-2002, 01:43 PM

Geez! Stop already, all your whining is gonna make you a bad drunk.

Most everybody knows, 'buyer beware', and those cars that are suspected of being rebodies are verbally communicated to those that ask questions before buying. If you don't ask questions, do your homework, and sometimes pay a professional to go look before you lay out the big cash, then you live with the consequences.

BARRY

12-17-2002, 11:52 PM

IT IS JUST A NUMBER YOU ARE JUST A NUMBER IF YOU WANT TO FIND THAT OUT JUST PHONE THE GOVERMENT IF YOU HAVE A NICE CAR AND YOUR NOT TRYING TO RIP SOME BODY OFF FOR A LOT OF MONEY I HAVE BEEN THIER IT COST ME A LOT JUST CLEAR MY NAME:D I WAS SOLD A CAR I DID NOT CHECK OUT THE DEAL WAS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE I SHOUD HAVE KNOWN BETTER

jus4funn68

01-29-2003, 04:13 AM

I was just wondering just how many of us actually KNOW the total history of the cars we own? How would some of us feel if we found out that the pristine Z-28 had actually been in a fender bender because someone loanded the car to his sister one night and the front fender was replaced??? It would be something that would humble the best of us I would think.

rlesser

01-31-2003, 02:08 AM

neet topic, I do change body panels and bodies for a living!
I have either owned a bodyshop or worked in one for the last
25-30 yrs-mostly european stuff, domestic for fun! I can buy a new body from porsche, complete fenders and all. We have talked customers into doing this based on. putting ourselves in a position of the next collision!safety! we take incredible pride in our skills-but-we can't duplicate a
factory weld from porsche or mercedes! period! is ours stronger or weaker? Yes there are procedures but we don't crash test our work-do we....the idea of replacing the body on the car when done ethically/not changing options or modifying the vin is legal and is being done on a day to day schedule. Is it o.k. to change the body on your #s matching car. All i know is i wouldn't be caught dead in a
car that has had 1000's of factory welds replaced vs a rebody.(no body like a factory body). when did the z-28 going down the assembly line get its soul/i.d./etc.?
when the engine and trans went in or when the dealer ordered
the car? How was the body of the 6cyl car different from the z-28? its not-the legal document is the true value, and to car collectors, buyer beware. hire a professional to view the car, do your research, and have fun with these things.

rob
67 gto conv.
68 firebird 400
68 daytona ss chevelle
70 grand prix sj HO