GMMG ZL1

[Stefano]

It seems that many people who ask me about the GMMG ZL1s are not completely aware of that which is taking place to build these special cars and every time I talk to someone from GMMG I learn something new about the ZL1s.

These 69 or so quantity of Camaros are not SS' or Z28s. They started life as a "Special Fleet Orders" with many shared parallels to the revered "COPO" system.

They are also General Motors ,Chevrolet Division authorized "ZL1s". Similar to the late model Mustang "Cobra Rs". The name itself is trademarked and owned by GM, not just anyone can slap it on a Camaro and have a true late model ZL1.

[hvychev]

Stefano, I have a couple of questions about the 02 ZL1's. When I first heard of the ZL1's not a lot of info was out there. What I have learned was from this site. I did see a couple at Vette Fest and did notice the window sticker that said that it was somthing like a special service coupe?

What engine and horse power is supposed to be the stock combination that was originally approved by GM? I have heard a lot about Phase II & Phase III models.

Who made the decision to ask the current or original owner(Barnhardt) /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif of the remaining 69 ZL1's that were prodeced in 1969 to be the first offered these cars? Do we know how many of them actually took them up on their offer?

How much did these cars list for new in the various stages that were offered?

Does GMMG do any conversions to Camaros that were NOT sold through one of the Authorized dealers such as Berger, Tom Henry, Earnhart, etc? Kind of like someone taking a car they bought elsewhere to Nickey Chevrolet for lets say a 427 conversion after the fact?

[GRB]

hvychev - If you go to Matt's website www.gmmg.net (http://www.gmmg.net) (I think) and follow the link to the write ups about the car you will know just about all there is to know.
Most of these cars start out a B4C police cars.
In your third paragraph I'm not sure what you are asking but I do KNOW this. When GM finally realized they would not be able to sell all of the 1969 ZL1s they gave most of the remaining cars away to prominant GM racers. The first one of these was car #51 and it was given to Lamar Walden.

Matt did all the cars you mentioned plus a few others like the Carl Black firebirds.

It is my opinion that Matt never intended to put anything but LS6 motors in these cars but when a number of us told him we were pulling the LS6s and having 427s built he decided to offer that option. Again, this is just my opinion.

Also, the original 69 camaro loaded was about $3,500 and the ZL1 option added about the same amount. I believe Fred Gibb was even authorized to return a number of cars which was something GM had never allowed before. I'm sure someone will chime in with the exact numbers.

[hvychev]

Im sorry GRB I may have not made my qustion clear enough. I know about the 69 ZL1's I was refering to the new 2002 ZL1's. The question about the current owners of the remaining 1969 ZL1's and the pricing was about the new ones.

[GRB]

I think the base 02 list for about $57k. I understand some guys (maybe all) are getting the $3k GM rebate. Of course engine options are extra and there are a few other available options. Hope that helps.

[Charley Lillard]

First...... These cars do not have Chevrolet's blessing to be called ZL1's as far I know. They do have Chevrolet's blessing to have the ZO6 Vette engine in them with Warranty and are Emmisions Certified for the ZO6..... Memo from GMMG "GMMG "ZL1 Supercar Options Invoice" "Attention. The Phase 2 and 3 engine package is not Authorized by the Chevrolet Camaro Brand Team, nor by any GM Dealership. This package does not comply with the emission recertification test that thhe regular ZL1 Supercar comply with under the "GMMG 9560" Package". Frank...Matt Murphy contacted me and asked me to locate current 69 ZL1 owners and give them first shot at the cars. I think I found Homes for at least 11 of them. I think Porterfield suckered Barnhart into one.

[CWilliams]

I tried to get Milt Robson interested in an '02 ZL1 but to no avail. As far as I know- phase II is heads/cam/long tube headers, pcm tuning, plugs, wires,etc. Phase III is the 427. Would love for my '01 Berger to cradle one of those 427's (Matt if you're listening, how bout it?!). Matt and Bille do an excellent job.

[sYc]

Charley; You are correct. According to a GM spokesman, GM would not allow the use of "ZL-1", but did agree to allow GMMG to use the term "Supercar". I believe Supercar is the name of the (Corvette) tire on the new Camaro. WOW, Banrhart suckered, who would have thought? Usually it is Ken on the other end. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[Chevy454]

Just curious...does Chevrolet "officially" acknowledge the LS6 Camaros? Like, if Charley had shelled the rear in his yellow car in Collinsville would Chevrolet have picked up the tab since it was still LS6 powered? What about the 427 powered cars...is ANY of the drivetrain warrantied on them?

If I owned a 427 car I would be REALLY worried, because with the power those things are putting out, goodness knows what kind of carnage they could create! That's my kind of ride! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

[Charley Lillard]

My understanding is they do aknowledge the LS6 and that it carries full Factory Warranty. As for the 427 cars, there has to be a Nexus between the parts that fail and the modifications made before any Automaker can Void a Warranty. If we had Grenaded the rear at the Drags because Clary was dumping the Clutch, I'm not sure if that should be covered under any circumstance...

[GRB]

I've got a feeling nothing (worthwhile) is going to be warranteed on my car. To me it's kind of like building an 02 hot rod almost from scatch. Anybody that is overly concerned about warranty issues on a 427 02 car probably shouldn't buy it.

[Chevy454]

That's a good point, Charley. I'm sure most of us here have been given the run around from a dealer at one time or another because of a non-factory (read: aftermarket) part on a vehicle when a warrantied part crapped out. This happens every day, but like you said, they have to prove that that part actually lead to a part's demise.

And, as for dad dumping the clutch, wouldn't the old story of "it was Sunday morning and we were headed to church" have fit just perfect! Again, curiosity question: do they all have the Torsen rear, or are some equipped with the Eaton?

[mc25t190]

careful not to wake the guy on the other post! i was offered one because i owned a 1969 ZL1 car #13 cortez silver, but also knew matt murphy. i believe that 4 people currently own both. bill porterfield, ken barnhardt, charlie lillard, kevin hand, any others, i'm not sure.
as you became one to order these cars you were given the option of the stage 1 and stage 2 up front, with popular demand for obvious reasons the stage III became available , but , was very hard for matt ot obtain the engines from chevrolet, at first they were to punch the LS6 motor, but, were able to get chevrolet to produce the blocks made it good for all the owners of the 427's, then off to DEI enterprises.
i feel this move by chevrolet adds validity to their commitment behind the car, why else would chevrolet participate in the high performance end of it. i'm with stefano , COPO, b4c police order, slick top, 427, i'm happy!

[Jeff Murphy]

I think Carl Stuber got both, too. Not sure if he's hanging on to the new one, though.

[mc25t190]

the more the merrier!

[Bigblockhappy]

When you say the phase III has the 427, do you mean a stroked out small block or is it a big block? /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

[Stefano]

Actually Neither,it is the C5R "Corvette" race only block.

[Stefano]

Just for conversations sake and the healthy spirit of debate, this Joyous Holiday Season, I would like to mention 'Camaro Performers' Fall 2002 edition, where there is a Red "ZL1" badged 2002 Camaro and the title is "Out With a Bang The '02 ZL1 Does the Legend Right", by Kevin Lee.

"It's always a risky move to badge a new model with a moniker that carried such a high level of esteem, but in this case the new '02 ZL1 just may live up to the ZL1 emblems it carries on its fenders."...........

"Why would GM expend one of its most hallowed nameplates on a warmed over Camaro, I wondered?" (Me too)

So then based on what you are saying , is or isn't this GMMG prototype (to the other 69 GMMG ZL1s built) ZL1 built with GM's approval both expressed and implied. /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

[82z96ss]

Only the phase 1 base ZL1 Supercar is authorized by the Chevy Camaro Brand Team or any other GM Engineer as per GMMG invoice.

This is due part by Phase 2/3 not meeting emission recertification test and will NOT be honored by any GM dealership.

So if your getting a Phase 1 your lucky, if not youe is SOL.

Oh well cuz GMMG will be doing the warranties, which I personally feel would take care of problems alot better than my local dealership would.

[sYc]

Stefano; As you say, for debate purposes only, which I feel is very similar to the Douglass debate. Corporate GM did not approve the use of ZL-1. Nor did the Camaro Brand Team (officially). The reason I say officially is because a couple of members of the Camaro Brand Team did lend their support, but not in their official capacities. So I guess I would have to say no, they were not built with GM's approval, either expressed or implied. As with most corporations, GM is always facing liability issues, thus are reluctant to "officially" get involved with projects generated outside of their corporate walls. This has been going on for years. I have heard numerous horror stories from original owners of Yenkos, even 1969s, about the problems of getting dealers and Chevrolet to warranty their cars. I can understand in '67 and '68, but the COPO Yenkos faced the same problems. It took 6 months for the owner of my Yenko Camaro to get a dropped valve fixed at the dealer who sold it to him, Francis Chevrolet in St. Louis. Frank Radake faced the same problem trying to get his Yenko Chevelle fixed under warranty, also at Francis. And, this in spite of all the influence Don had with Chevrolet.

[Stefano]

The 1969 ZL1 COPO Super Cars were also not officially endorsed to the public or general dealer body by GM, the corporate entity.

[JoeC]

Did Chevrolet ever use the name ZL1 Camaro? I don't think so. The 1969 Corvette had an option called RPO ZL1 but the aluminum engine Camaro was option COPO 9560. There were prototype Camaros with ZL1 emblems but they did not escape the factory. Although it is well known today, I don't believe "ZL1 Camaro" was ever used as an official name in 1969.

[Stefano]

I would agree, it was the 'public' which used the ZL1 and Camaro together as they are often referred to today.

There has been info provided, that one of the Prototype ZL1 Camaros was indeed sold to the same dealership which purchased many of the Central Offices special vehicles such as, all the unsold 1969 Camaro Indy/festival Pace Cars, Two Z16 Chevelles as well as many other special cars.

[hvychev]

Stefano was that dealer <font color="red">* </font color>.....

BTW I had a coutomer on Christmas eve that gave me quite a cool history about one J.D., Mr. Ed, and Jack Loftus Ford where he bought several Shelbys back in the 60's from. Quite interesting Chi Town dealer info.

[sYc]

"I would agree, it was the 'public' which used the ZL1 and Camaro together as they are often referred to today."

Fred Gibb first used the term "ZL-1 Camaro" in ads to describe the cars.

[Stefano]

Frank,
How ironic,I'm working a deal on a suspected Jack Loftus 1969 Shelby GT 500. They did sell quite a few Shelby's here in Chicago land. An early Shelby was recently found in Desplains, IL. It had been hidden by the wife in a Divorce situation for many years. The Shelby was purchased off of Mr, Norm's used car lot less than a couple of years after it was sold new.

[sYc]

Stefano, Your saying that Chevrolet, a division of GM, was able to produce this car, through the normal COPO process, at the Norwood plant, without GM's blessing or ever knowing. WOW!

[Stefano]

Tom,
Looks like that would be definitive,thanks for making the point.

Frank,
Yes it was the <font color="red"> * </font color>dealer. If you got some cool info start a new thread and share it. The only way I got any of the info is second hand and would like to find out more.

[hvychev]

Stefano my customer was in today and I gave him a printout of an ad that I think you posted a while back of Jack Douglas and Berganse Chevrolet. The reason that I gave him the ad is because he personal friends with Mr Ed I think his last name is Shoanthaller?(sp) He keeps in regular contact with him and was going to see him tomorrow. He ratteled off many other names and people that he knows from the area. He told me that he had a 1965 GTO bought brand new with every performance option that could be ordered, 3 Shelbys and an actual AC 427 Cobra. I know that the guy was legit and on the level. No B.S. with this guy. I could go on but this is Ford stuff!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif I will get to see him on Jan 6th to get a remote start installed on his new car and I could pass along your contact info to him.

[Stefano]

No Tom I did not say or mean any such thing. That would be a ridiculous statement /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

[olredalert]

Frank,

-----Would that have been Ed Schoenthaler,or possibly his brother.Ed owns the Chevy(+Buick?) dealer in(I think)Wheaton or west of there on Roosevelt.He does gave a big collection of cars,but mostly heavy classics.Several of his cars have won at Pebble Beach and Meadowbrook.But he also has some beautiful Corvettes,and conceivably could have a Cobra.That GTO part sounds familiar.A really great guy Im proud to call a friend!.....Bill S......ol red!

[hvychev]

Ol red, my customer is the one that owned those cars and no he is not a dealer. But he has a friend that's name is Ed that owns a Buick dealer. I think this is the same Ed.

Stefano is this the legendary Mr Ed who worked a Berganse and Fencil Tufo? I will find out more when he comes in on the 6th.

[Stefano]

Yes, Ed Schoenthaller(sp)owns and operates Cross Roads Chevrolet-Buick in West Chicago along with his brother Bill and he was The Mr. Ed

It has been a few years since I viewed his collection, it is very impressive even if they are not all Super Cars and Muscle cars.

[olredalert]

-------Speaking of Loftus Ford,I lived in Hinsdale three blocks behind where they were in the 60s.Moved there from Florida to manage the Corvette shop for Jack D and his partner.Bought the house just after Jack built his new dealership in 1976/77.It was handy because I worked out of the old dealership on Ogden,where he sold all those "Yenkos" from.Its funny because all the times I ever talked to Jack about cars(and there were many)he never talked about Don Y or his cars.........Bill S.....ol red!

[Stefano]

There is a ZL1 SuperCar '02 Camaro in the February issue of 'Hot Rod',page 16. Is this one of the numbered 69(plus 2 prototypes) built by GMMG?

Looks to be a ZL1 Grand Sport tribute Camaro?

[mc25t190]

i'm going to check it out. boy, /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif the awareness and attention these fabulous cars are starting to get its really heating up as the last 2 were gobbled up from the tennessee dealership at substantial margins (steve west?) IMO, 600 hp. will get a lot of attention when even more people become aware of the fact that they exist,IMO. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[Charley Lillard]

The 2002 ZL1 in Hot Rod is the Prototype that GMMG built for Chevrolet. This is the same one that was Red. Chevrolet has painted it Lemans Blue and added that Red stripe that I don't care for.

[Stefano]

Wasn't the Original Corvette Grand Sport a 1967 Model with an L88 not a '69 with a ZL1?

[ChrisS]

Stefano,
The original 5 Grand Sports were patterned after the 1963 body, although I believe very few production parts were used in their assembly. The incorporated a hand-laid ultra-thin fiberglass body, tube-frame and a 377 cubic inch all-aluminum block. The attachment is of the engine compartment of Grand Sport #002. Later in the '60s one or more of them were campaigned on the racing circuit with a 427.

[Stefano]

Thanks Chris, I was way off on that one.

[sYc]

Actually the first Grand Sport ran a regular production "race prepared" small block. It resides in a garage outside of Pittsburg, after passing through Yenko Chevrolet. It is quite impressive to see, as it is complete, with paperwork. It has been offered to the sYc, but not for sure what best to do with it. Certainly a valuable piece of history.

[Stefano]

Tom,
Please explain. Was it raced by Don Yenko or race prepped by Yenko Chevrolet and what year(s)?

[Keith Tedford]

Regarding warranty on the '69 COPO cars, we had no problems at all. Right from the begining I had ring sealing issues and the engine got re-ringed under warranty. A transmission problem was corrected as well. No one could make the shifter work properly. One of my friends had no end of problems and all were looked after under warranty. The 5/50 warranty was good insurance. None of the other companies gave much more than 90 days warranty on their top cars.

[sYc]

Following GM's ban on racing, about 1964, the Grandsports were sold to the public. One of them was bought by Grady Davis (Gulf Oil). This is the car that Don Yenko and other Pittsburg area racers raced. Gulf Oil picked up where Chevrolet left off. They had their own R&amp;D department, strictly for racing. They would run a 327 (on one of their many dynos) until it broke, just to find the weakest link.

As per the engine, is was removed early on, once the aluminum small block was ready. If memory serves me correct, it features some type of injection, such as a Hilborn unit. It has been several years since I have seen the engine and all of the documents that go with it, but I have no doubt it is legit, as well as all of the other Corvette racing artifacts that reside along side it, including the first trophy ever won by a Corvette (racing).

[Seattle Sam]

I have seen the Gran Sport that Supercars referred to, here in the Northwest. The original engine for it sits on a stand, and is quite a piece! It's a small block Chevy, with provision for a road tube at the top rear of the motor (all small blocks through 1967 I believe). But it's an alloy block, not iron! The Winters Foundry mark on the aluminum intake made for those four twin-throat Webers is also awesome..

I don't have a picture, but here is a link to a 1963 Gran Sport drive test (http://www.theautochannel.com/content/news/date/19970905/news005950.html) .
-Sam

[mc25t190]

charlie, thats pretty cool, i drove that car when matt brought it over to the house. it ran strong, i can't wait till the 600 HP. comes out, GMMG superstock ZL1.

[ChrisS]

All 5 of the original Grand Sports are scheduled to be exhibited together this March at the Amelia Island Concours.

[Chevy454]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
IMO, 600 hp. will get a lot of attention when even more people become aware of the fact that they exist,IMO.

<hr></blockquote>

I think the cars will get attention, but I'm not sure who will be the most attentive: the collectors or the parts guy! Not being negative, but from my limited experience with our late models and those of some friends, I don't see how the tranny or the rear even stand a chance! Tranny problems are frequent, and the little 10 bolts are weak enough even without further weakening it with a set of gears. I've seen cars with only !free mods be hard on parts, so I can't even begin to fathom what the phase IIs or phase IIIs will break! 600hp...it's not WHAT will break, but WHEN! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
Regarding warranty on the '69 COPO cars, we had no problems at all. Right from the begining I had ring sealing issues and the engine got re-ringed under warranty.

<hr></blockquote>

Keith:

You are one of the few who I have talked to that had any luck with warranties on these cars when new...maybe you got better treatment in Canada? Or maybe part of it was that the warranty problems I know of are associated with Yenko cars, and the dealers weren't really sure if Yenko or Chevrolet was doing the 427 cars. Our car and another Francis Chevrolet car both sat for a while trying to get cylinder head problems fixed.

[GRB]

Those pumpkins are going to blow like they have a stick of dynamite in them. Their only salvation will be the fact that the typical owner of these cars is far less likely to "abuse" them than the typical Camaro owner.
From what I hear the trans is pretty tough.

[Chevy454]

They sell a girdle for the 10 bolts, which seems kind of like a band-aid to me. From what I've heard, most of the fairly serious guys get a Moser 12-bolt and be done with it. All I know for sure is that the 10-bolts in the Camaros (mine included) seem to be hard on bearings.

As for the T-56 being "tough", I don't know...my SS is on it's 3rd gear set, and I know of a couple of other manual cars here in the "woods" that have had problems. But, I've also seen some power adder cars run them with no trouble, so who knows. And, the new 500hp Viper is using it, so someone has some confidence in it! I'm not up on the auto cars, but I hope the 4L60E is tougher than the 4L80E that I had in my truck...2 rebuilds in just over a year. A manual tranny soon followed!