COPO vs M & O Mopar

[copo9566aa]

Copo cars it's very similar to M-code Mopar
1969 M-code mopar Barracuda-Dart-Road 6Bbl-R/T Six-Pak
It's more (Civilian)(Streetable)than the O code Mopar
The M-code for Mopar =Spªcial engine
The O-code for Mopar =Super Stock
The O-code car it's not realy streetable.
What's is your opinion about this.
COPO car is comparable to M-code or O-code Mopar.

[JoeC]

Is the "O" car the Hemi cars?

[copo9566aa]

Yes the O cars is the Hemi Super Super Stock
Belvedere RO23 Coronet WO23 Barracuda B0 Dart LO
The second letter of the VIN O is for Super Stock.

[sixtiesmuscle]

With the low number of M code Cudas & Darts produced in 69 they should be the Copos of Mopars IMO, BUT, they just don't hold the mystique. The "O code" hemi cars are in a different category altogether. There is no direct comp to the Copos.

[copo9566aa]

I agree
But Bigger production of M-code in B/Body
Typical match ZL1 VS M- Road (http://www3.sympatico.ca/craig_wood/images/psmcr2002/copopete.jpg) and Yenko Camaro VS M- Bee SixPak (http://www3.sympatico.ca/craig_wood/images/psmcr2002/yenkorob.jpg)

[copo9566aa]

Estimated production for M-Code Mopar in 69
358* Cuda
640* Dart GTS
1,907* Bee
1,432* Road
and similar to COPO no ragtop M-code.

[sixtiesmuscle]

I don't know where you got those figures, but, the Cudas & Darts were nowhere near that high from my sources. Maybe some Mopar experts can chime in?

[Rat_Pack]

sixtiesmuscle, the counts look correct except the Cuda, I show 340 M code automatic Cudas shipped. Galen could have come up with another 18 cars since I last researched this. Same goes for the Dart GTS, 640 shipped and all were automatics. Option code A13 Engine Conversion Pkg 440 1- 4bbl. /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif ............RatPack...............

[SuperCars]

Looking in a Mopar Muscle magazine article by Galen Govier called "By the Numbers" it does show the 69 M-code motor numbers as posted.

It is the 68 M code cars that were much less in numbers. The 68 Dart 440 "GSS" (Grand Spaulding Special) built by Dodge/Hurst was exclusive for Mr Norm with 48 built, 6 surviving today. There were no 68 440 Cuda's on Galen's list.

"Mr Norm's" 68 GSS 440 Hurst Dart was a "sleeper" street car that was overshadowed by 68 Hurst Hemi Darts in recognition. But, I would not hesitate to say that I believe the 68 GSS 440 Hurst Dart would give my 427 Yenko Nova a run for the money at the strip. They were both big blocks with similar body weight. With 6 surviving 68 GSS 440 Hurst Dart's exist, it is of similiar rarity as the 427 Yenko Nova as well.

[JoeC]

Was the M code a special order car?
In general, there were 3 ways to build factory hi performance cars. 1) regular production order, 2) special production order, 3) off site vendor production.
The Hemi Dart/Bcuda, SS AMC, 429 Mustang and others were done by outside vendors. The ZL1/L88 Corvette, LS6 Chevelle, L72 passenger, L89, L78, Z/28, and others were very hi po cars but still done RPO. What is unique about the 427 COPOs, and LT1 Nova is that they were built by special order production in-house. Almost like an undercover operation with no special ID (not even SS), and little dealer info. Super Stock drag cars coming down the line hidden among the 6cly grandma cars. In my opinion, Chevy probably only wanted to make about 50 of each to satisfy NHRA Super Stock rules. Along came Don Yenko who said "I don't want 50 L72s .....I want 500...I can slap on some stripes and sell them as an sYc"
I don't know a lot about the M codes but I think they were regular production not done as secretive as COPOs.

[copo9566aa]

Joe
Look for an "M" as the 5TH digit of the VIN.
It denotes a- Special Order.
Chevy copy Mopar or Mopar copy Chevy ???
Just comparing a COPO chevelle VS a B/Body M-Code
It's very similar
Spªcial Hood(SS For the COPO)(Fiberlass lift off for the Mopar)
Standard rear end ratio for The COPO 4.10 and M-/B-Body 4.10
etc...
Kevin
I have no idea of the value of a 68 M-440 GSS on the market.
68 GTS 440 4-Speed: 48 (Hurst-Campbell built)
'68 GTS 440 Auto Trans: 30 (Hurst-Campbell built)
For the match my vote is for the Yenko Nova. /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif
The only problem for the nova is the traction.

[SuperCars]

Myself and most, especially on a Yenko site; would probably vote on the Nova also. But ask for a vote on a Mopar site, and the opposite may happen.

Does any one know the weight of each one as equipped? the Dart is a likewise very light car which would have traction problems too. The L72 427 is factory rated at 425 HP, wheras the 440 is factory rated at 375 HP. But remember these are factory advertised numbers which are sometimes manipulated, so I wonder what each engine would truly Dyno at?

[JoeC]

The 440 is a good motor but not one of the Big Guns that were born to race. Most of the American cars are fairly equal when it comes to cyl block, transmissions, rear ends etc. The difference is in the cyl head and intake design. The BB Chevys (square port head) , 426 Hemi, 427 Ford (tunnel port) and Boss 429 Ford (shotgun) engines were built to race. These were not desined as truck engines or for the trailer tow option on your station wagon. They were designed to run over 200mph in NASCAR, run 10 sec ETs in Super Stock, or to beat the best in the world in Can Am, and LeMans. Size does make a differnce - you need big heads to make big power. A good street engine is another story.

[copo9566aa]

The real match for a 68 M-Gss 440 Dart is a 68 Gibbs COPO
Nova L78 (9738).
fourth M-Code 440 in the top 50.:D

5 1969 Roadrunner [email protected] 440 Six Pack 390 four-speed 4.10 SS 6/69

21 1969 Super Bee [email protected] 440 Six Pack 390 automatic 4.10 HR 8/69

31 1969 Dart 440 13.71@105 440 4V 375 automatic 3.55 CC 5/69

47 1969 Barracuda [email protected] 440 4V 375 automatic 4.10 SS 8/69

[JoeC]

I believe this car listed below was equipped with headers.
I do not know of any 60s/70s cars tested when new that ran less then 13s without headers. There is a Car & Driver test of a narrow tire 1966 427 Corvette that was listed in the 12s but this test is not valid. Car & Driver admitted that they exagerated some test numbers or just made them up.

5 1969 Roadrunner [email protected] 440 Six Pack 390 four-speed 4.10 SS 6/69

[copo9566aa]

Joe
This is not important the row or the exact time
just a mention of 4 M-Mopar in the top 50.
a mistake /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif a put the Road name with the Bee pics and
the Bee name with the Road pics /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

[69sixpackbee]

The 69 six barrel road runner tested in SSDI had 2 drivers an amatuer and a pro, the pro of course was Ronnie Sox who posted the 12.91 et on street tires no headers. By the way, Roland McGonegal was the amatuer, I think Ronnie made 5 passes in the car and Ro made 3, they used the average of both in an advertisement in several magazines in 69, the 12.91 was the best pass of the 8 made during the day of testing, there were several Chrysler engineers on had to help monitor the test, one of them was a carb expert. The 69 6bbl/six pack cars were M code only for 69, in 70 the code changed to V. The 70 cars came with cast iron intake manifolds instead of Aluminum like the 69 cars did. From the 2002 pure stock shoot out I think the Road Runner and Super Bee both gave good account of themselves being a 12.40 for the Bee and I think a 12.8 for the Road Runner both just a hair off the ZL1 and the Yenko but good close racing none the less. It is always good to see these cars doing what they were intended for.
Larry

[T Billigen]

There was a Mopar in the Pittsburgh area in 69 called the "Iron Horse". It was a 440 automatic that ran C stock. He ran at Keystone the same time I did and ran consistant 11s. I think he held the national record for awhile. I'm not a big Mopar fan but this car would run! he would run all over any street Hemi! I think Don Fezell owns the car now.

[69sixpackbee]

there is a web site devoted just to 1969 440 6bbl/six pack b bodies , the have a lot of info from when these cars were built, they were all built at the Lynch Road plant, and there is a very COPOish type print out of special instructions on how to build and code the vin on these cars along with where the special engines will come from etc. All the cars were built in 1 run so you could not go to a dealer and pick your options and then wait for the car, none had AC for example, all had DANA rears with 4.10, the automatic cars had 383 type converters but internally the trans had HEMI bands and and extra clutches. The 4speed
cars had HEMI trans with 18 spline input shafts. The production of these cars ended when Chrysler ran out of aluminum intakes to put on the cars. Edelbrock could not supply enough. That is why the 70 cars had iron intakes Chrysler cast them at one of the foundry's they had the other iron manifolds made.

I can tell you from personal experience these cars would clean almost any stock street Hemi's clock, I had to spot Hemi cars since AHRA ran cubes to weight and my 6pack bee ran C/Stock Formula 1 and a 426 street Hemi ran E/Stock Formula 1 . My handicap was a 7 and the Hemi was a 9 . I only ran 1 COPO car ever and it was a Chevelle we ran 4 times I won 3 , I do not think I could have beaten a ZL1 because back then we both would have had slicks and that lightweight would do the job.

the web site is www.homestead.com/sixpacksixbbl/index.html (http://www.homestead.com/sixpacksixbbl/index.html)

Larry

[JoeC]

The m-code cars are very interesting and similar to COPO as far as special assemblies but very different in the area of marketing and promotion. The m-code had special hood, graphics, and badgeing compared to COPOs which were kept quiet and very low key. Chevy had to hide them from GM upper management. I read the road tests on that web site but did not see one with a 12s time. Do you know what magazine that article was in or is it on-line? I would like to read it. In my opinion balancing, blueprinting, and Dyno tuning can sometimes get an extra 50hp and can put a pure stock in the 12s but to do it with a car off show room floor is hard to believe. With the pro driver and the Chrysler engineers there may have been something funny going on with that 12 sec drag test car. Just my opinion.

[69sixpackbee]

you are correct about the ordering process and those hoods and call outs on them being bold, I just thought going through fleet sales to get them built was a similar touch to the COPO cars. The road test where Ronnie Sox ran 12.91 was in super stock and drag illustrated, Roland recently reprinted the article in Mopar Muscle or Hot Rod , I'm not sure but I will look tonight when I get home from work. All the big 3 had special cars they gave the press to test and write about and were treated to the best engine assembly possible and max tuning. You know nobody wants to hear their latest hot rod in a 4 wheel slug. In 71 Car Craft did a special road test of a ss454 ls5 vs a 71rr 440 6bbl, added headers, slicks tuning , cam, etc. If they did thing's like that you know the manufacturers had a field day plotting stuff. I do know that my 1969 six pack super bee ran 13.60 2 weeks after I bought it with no changes of any kind, and after I put a set of 7inch cheater slicks on it it ran 12.9 all day since I didn't have to baby it to get it off the line. I got it down to 12.6 with headers and mechanical linkage for the six pack. other wise it was pure stock. What I did to it was alot like most guys without much money did to their cars. I loved that car, It was stolen from where I worked in 1970 and I have had lots muscle cars since but nothing inculding my 68 Hemi Road Runner ever compared to that big red Dodge.

[SS427]

For those interested, there is a very nice little article written on one of the '68 Dart GSS's in the December issue of Musclecar Magazine, page 14.

[copo9566aa]

Suggestion
For Mopar people
Start a M-Code registry similar to COPO
68 Dart M
69 Dart M
69 Cuda M
69 Bee M
69 Road M
/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

[SuperCars]

Hi Rick, is the Musclecar magazine the new one that some say they've recieved in the mail without having subscribed? Is it available on the news stands. Jerry Heasley said for me to send him $20 and he'd send my name into start receiving it? In any event I'd like to see the 68 GSS Dart article.

There already are numerous large Mopar Registry's that have been in existence for quite some time, already including all the M code cars.

[SS427]

Kevin,
I believe that is one and the same. However, I do not think it is available on the newsstand as of this time. Jerry is the Ford Editor and Curt Patterson is President and it is a very nice magazine in it's infancy. See the attachment for a small photo to give you an idea of the article.
Rick

[SS427]

The cover.

[Belair62]

I got this in the mail..looks like it could be a good mag....

[Mr70]

It's a pretty good magazine.Though you can see it is still in it's infancy.
The Matching T-shirt they gave ot at VetteFest was a nice thank you too.