1987 Muscle Car review article with Don Yenko

[hvychev]

I have heard a lot about this article but have never read it. Can somebody post it big enough so those of us that have not read it could have the oportunity?

[55chevy]

If I can find some time this weekend to get the scanner hooked up and working I'll post that one. Unless someone beats me to it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ed

[hvychev]

Anyone?

[55chevy]

Sorry Frank. But it's still on my list of things to do. Just been pretty busy here at home with our newborn daughter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ed

[bbdon]

Page 1 (http://www.sonic.net/bbdon/free/yenko01.jpg)
Page 2 (http://www.sonic.net/bbdon/free/yenko02.jpg)
Page 3 (http://www.sonic.net/bbdon/free/yenko03.jpg)
Page 4 (http://www.sonic.net/bbdon/free/yenko04.jpg)
Page 5 (http://www.sonic.net/bbdon/free/yenko05.jpg)
Page 6 (http://www.sonic.net/bbdon/free/yenko06.jpg)
Page 7 (http://www.sonic.net/bbdon/free/yenko07.jpg)
Page 8 (http://www.sonic.net/bbdon/free/yenko08.jpg)
Page 9 (http://www.sonic.net/bbdon/free/yenko09.jpg)
Follow Up (http://www.sonic.net/bbdon/free/yenko10.jpg)
Muscle Car Review, April 1987

[SuperCars]

On page 3 of the post above, you'll see a sign on top of the camaro: "350 1969 Unit built". This started speculation at the time of that article, that there could be more than the 201 69 Camaros built.

But if you consider the word "Unit" literally, it covers Camaros, Chevelles and Novas. Still have a hard time getting up to 350 units when you count 201 Camaros, 99 Chevelles, and 30-37?(not all were 427)Novas in 69. Unless he was counting Jack Douglas *Yenko Cars in that number.

[hvychev]

Thanks bbdon. Also thank You T. Billigen who e-mailed me the whole thing yesterday! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Stefano]

SuperCars,
If one of your largest volume network dealers sold both the cars he purchased direct and inderect with your name on them, would you count them in your total or would you dismiss them in the count /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Steve;
It appears that Jack only ordered the first batch of cars from Yenko SportsCars, therefore he was not one of Yenko's largest volume dealers.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Ed would have more complete #'s, but my initial pass through the inventory only shows about 5-6 '69 Yenko Camaros going to Douglass, but 14+/- going to Hult, 9+/- to Francis, 7+/- to Joseph, 8+/- to Marshall, and whole lot going to Colonial!

[Stefano]

Marlin,
There appears to have been 25 or so Network Dealers in 1969. I don't have the exact count in front of me so help me if I am wrong. When you take out the cars sold by Yenko Chevrolet, You will see that Douglass Chevrolet Sold More than Most of the other Network Dealers, if your counting just the Direct order Yenkos.

They would rank in the top few, volume wise if you included all the cars sold to the public as Yenkos. (Camaros, Chevelles and Novas)

In 1969 Douglass was the Numero Uno seller of Yenko Cars in Chicago , no matter the yard stick "you" choose to use.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I can see where you are going with this Steve, I'm just offering an alternative point of view. There were a lot of dealers in the network, Douglass was an important one, there is no dispute of that. But to suggest that the number of units listed on that sign was including those cars sold as Douglass/COPO/Yenko's is a stretch beyond circumstantial 'evidence', that's all.

The sign behind Don was in a photo taken at Colonial Chev. in Norfolk, and I would propose that it has no bearing on the situation in Chicago.

Please don't give me this 'you' stuff, consider me as balance in these discussions, the other wing, ballast, whatever, don't make it personal /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Belair62]

JD also sold the most COPO cars in Chicago....

[JoeC]

Yenko also built one Stinger in 69 and some race cars so the 350 total may have been pretty close. It is also a nice round number to use for a publicity opportunity.
The Yenko fans are lucky to have that article as that was done not long before Don's plane crash.

[ssl78]

Marlin,
I believe its a stretch in your mind. I believe it is more than likely that it does include those cars. If the numbers would have added up to around 330 to 335 you better believe certain people would have used that against the JD theory, because the numbers would have been higher if they were Yenkos. In Dons documents he stated there were 22 JD cars, it would be interesting to know when that car was sold, and how many were sold after that one. If anybody knows which car that was the build date to even see if it was after the JD cars.
201 99 35 =335 if there were around 15 additional yenkos sold after that one the numbers would work out. At this point it seems more likely he counted them than not. Just my opinion.
As for how many PA Yenkos JD sold its hard to tell I know of two he sold which have paperwork saying JD sold them, but on Ed's list they come up as Yenko selling them.

[Stefano]

John,
You bring up a good point in that the Ultimate Yenko Selling dealership is not always reflected on the lists Marlin mentioned. A certain Car may show Yenko Chevrolet, when it was indeed sold by another dealership.

[sYc]

Or could have been just Camaros sold through PA. I have documents for over 100 '67s, 50-60+ '68s, plus 200 '69s, that could explain the 350th unit built. That is my theory and I am sticking to it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But remember, theorys are like opinions and a___, everyone has one. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

As per this article, Don was not very accurate in many of his statements. GM and his own paperwork has disproved much of what he was quoted as saying. As with much of the other Yenko paperwork, intereasting reading, but not very factual. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Belair62]

If there was a post about bottled water somehow the JD cars would be brought up.

[sYc]

Actually that is not true. There is more concrete evidence supporting the cars modified at Yenko Chevrolet, but not sold at Canonsburg, whether it be Frances, Van, who ever. There is less known about the Canonsburg sold cars, even though that is changing with the newly discovered files. That is one reason the number of Yenko built cars is changing (growing), as new information is found.

[TMagda]

Not sure if this is relevant to this discussion but I remember when I was a kid (9-10 years old), my father took me car shopping with him and there was a Yenko Nova on the showroom floor of our local Chevy dealer. This was in Norwalk, Connecticut around 1970 give or take. I think the dealer was named Redmann Chevrolet

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

All I can say is that you have as little facts supporting that the 350th units included the JD cars as I have supporting that it doesn't include them. So, we'll leave it at that.

I personally don't believe very many of Don's production figures, I have seen Don's memo's stating 500 Yenko Deuces - we all know how accurate that statement is! Don was trying to sell cars, and get them qualified for NHRA.

One theory we have found to be true on a few occasions is that when a car arrived at a dealership in the network (Yunkers for eg.) with a 'hurt' engine, they would ship it back to Yenko. Yenko would replace the car with another shipment, or just keep the car. He would replace the engine under warranty, and then sell it locally. However, he would not change the inventory sheets, I don't think there was any need to in his mind, but he would write 'WRECKED' next to that car on the inventory sheet. Interesting! I think I have seen 'REPLACE' on the sheets as well, which might indicate the scenario that you guys are referring to.

Tom, the other part about opinions is that 'they are like a___, everyone has one and they all stink' /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Chevy454]

My theory is that Don flunked math...

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Don was a certified Genius, IQ was in the 140+ range! (?). I think Don used creative math, you know, 1 and 1 is not 2, but rather 11 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sYc]

Marlin; Very true. At least when it came to dealing with the sanctioning bodies, such as the NHRA, SCCA,etc. and/or the press. Some of the memos, including the one you mentioned, are quite interesting, but not backed by known facts. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

And, the 1987 article is only one example of this. In the Yenko papers I have are several instances where Don kind of stretched the truth when writing about himself and Yenko Chevrolet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Hum, makes we wonder. Since the only documentation that suggests that JD and DY had an agreement came from this collection of paperwork, I wonder about the validity of that document. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[hvychev]

Tom C, that just sounds weird when you say that Don Y's OWN info is not factual about the cars he built.

[Stefano]

Tom,
Just what about my statement is not accurate or true? There are Yenkos on the "Inventory Sheets" and various web Sights which Show Yenko Chevrolet as the selling dealer when indeed, based on NICB reports,original owner history and first party documentation, that was not the case.

I would say that the records in discussion are mostly accurate ,just not 100%

[sYc]

Hey, Don was a saleman. And, a good saleman will do what he has to do to close the deal(s). Don was just doing it on a bigger scale, Chevrolet, the press, NHRA, SCCA, to name a few. And Yenko Chevrolet was not the only one. I am sure Joel did not pay Marty to understate his Motion cars in the ads he created for Joel. In defense of Don, he did keep pretty good records. We would not have what we have today if he had not.

[Stefano]

[ QUOTE ]

Hum, makes we wonder. Since the only documentation that suggests that JD and DY had an agreement came from this collection of paperwork, I wonder about the validity of that document. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Ok I agree Don made it all up, it never happened,it has no basis in truth, he just wanted to appease Jack Douglass /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[hvychev]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IM EVEN SICK OF THIS SUBJECT!!!!!!!!!! THEIR WILL NEVER BE A RESOLUTION STEFANO!!! THEY WILL NEVER AGREE AND YOU WILL NEVER AGREE WITH THEM!!! LETS TURN THE PAGE!!!!!!!!!!

[sYc]

Hum, except for the web site you mention, which uses info from various sources (besides Yenko sheets), are you saying that you have undisputable proof that there is a car(s) listed on an actual Yenko inventory sheet that does not come back from the NICB as being sold at Yenko. No hearsay, third party, etc, but proof. If true, this would really shake up how the Yenko records(sheets) are viewed. AND WOULD MAKE THIS WHOLE THREAD WORTHWHILE, AS IT WOULD PROVE THAT THE YENKO INVENTORY SHEETS ARE INACCURATE, WHICH FOR YEARS HAVE THOUGHT TO BE GOSPEL.

If so, that is quite interesting, as I have 3 Yenkos, each being sold at a different Yenko dealer, Francis, Van and Grossman, but all came back from the NICB with Yenko listed as the dealer.


As per the accruacy of the Yenkos records, I am curious as to how much of the actual Yenko paperwork you have seen. If you have seen enough to honestly say that just under 100% is accurate, you have my undivided attention. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[sYc]

Frank; I do not see the problem with this thread. At least it is related to the supercars, which is the sole reason this board was created. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[ssl78]

I guess if Don lied about the JD cars in the estate documents its possible but the evidence supports it happened. unless Jack lied about it happening and original owners lied and some one put holes in the tail panels of theese cars in the same place and the Yenko emblem just so happens to fit. Tom if you have the statements, tell us how many PA Yenkos did JD sell early on? How many PA Yenkos were sold by JD later in the year?

[Stefano]

Tom,
What I am saying is that the NICB reports and the inventory Sheets show Yenko Chevrolet , just as your three Yenkos prove (per the info you provided)and verify my point as well as the other instances which exist. The inventory sheets I have copies of show a selling dealer ,and in some cases it is not the dealer who in turn sold the car to the retail customer. So when someone counts the number of cars sold by a sYc dealer or by Yenko Chevrolet as they are listed on the sources we just referenced, you could be lead to infer that Yenko Chevrolet retailed more cars direct to the ultimate consumer than they actually did and that other network dealers sold less.


This is where they are not 100% accurate.


Yes,I have seen the sheets I referenced, as well as many other documents, if that is what you are asking? There are others who have original Yenko Documents and have shared them with me over the years. I certainly have not seen or read them all and doubt that I ever will.

[Supercar_Kid]

My brother owns this original "350th Unit built" photo, along with the entire "proof sheet" of about 10 other photos from this same shoot that Don DIDN'T provide for the interview. What you don't know is that also parked in that same Colonial showroom was a 69 Yenko Chevelle, and they used the same sign on IT and took some photos beside that car as well... There are other "alternate" photos where they placed a "Yenko Sports Cars" sign above the other sign... Only ONE of all those photos ever made it in the 87 MCR article, so everyone assumes that this particular Camaro in question was the 350th unit built, and questions what it is meant, and draws way more into it than probably should be... I agree with Rob, Don Yenko BS'ed the whole 350th unit thing as a publicity stunt to show that he was selling lots of cars...Colonial was one of the biggest dealer in the network, and he and Colonial wanted to display the idea that they were selling tons of Yenko cars in their partnership... it benefited Yenko AND Colonial to look as "high volume" as possible. If you read any of the original Yenko documents (many have been discussed here in the past in other threads) Don was not usually very "accurate" in his numbers total, and his estimates ALWAYS seemed to be more than a few cars higher than what was "actually" produced... Such as the "500 Yenko Camaros built" statement in that interview... You can argue that one to the death too, interpret it 12 different ways, and put whatever spin on it you want, but the fact is, there were never 500 69 Yenko camaros built. There were never 500 Yenko Camaros built if you count all the 67s, 68s, 69s, The *Douglass cars, and even the 81 Turbo Z's. No 69's have ever surfaced beyond the original total of 201, which has since been dropped even lower to 198 after a recount... Don's statements and estimates were generally very high, and I'm confident that the "350th unit built" sign is probably just a number that Don pulled out of his head too. As a side note, if you look at this original photo closely, you can clearly see a rectangular "Colonial" dealer emblem plastered right in the middle of the rear spoiler. It doesn't show up in the magazine because the photo is too small, and the quality of the reprint isn't great, but you can definitely see it in the original 8x10" B&W photograph. Come to the US30 Show in July if you'd like to see the originals, and a ton of other cool supercar stuff! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Stefano]

Great info Supercar Kid, when was your brother's car built?

[COPO]

Stefano, I am not sure if you were referring to the copo.com website showing Yenko Chev. as retailing more cars than they actually did. My car was shown on the website as being retailed by Yenko, but the original paperwork showed it being sold new at Colonial. I questioned Ed C. about this and he told me when he did not have the information of the retail dealer he used Yenko Chev. as the default until he received additional docuemntation.

[sYc]

Stefano, I belive his brother has the photo, not the car. Of course I am sure Brandon wishes he had the car. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[sYc]

As Marlin stated earlier, Douglas was not one of Yenko's bigger dealers. I show only 8-10 total Yenko (PA) cars sold by Douglas in '69. Several other dealers in Don's network sold more then this number. And, by judging by the VINs, most were early cars, but without Douglass info, who knows when JD sold them. I guess only Jack can answer that.

[mc25t190]

"MARKETING 101" ! double copo, yenko, whatever, to each his own --------------------theory! thats why baskin robbins has 31 flavors of ice cream, will anybody agree? never. i know where there were proven statments that jack was caught with one of don's many secretary's having cocktails (350 cocktails and an extremely large tab !) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[sYc]

[ QUOTE ]
JD also sold the most COPO cars in Chicago....

[/ QUOTE ]

Am very curious to know what records you used to determine this. Chevrolet, Jack Douglas, other ??

[Stefano]

COPO,
Yes,in part I was referring to Ed's Web sight as some other members added up the numbers of cars sold and used that as absolute info, but I also have copies of some of the famed Inventory hand written sheets which show Yenko Chevrolet as the selling dealer when it wasn't.

[zgator]

I've read that artical a long time ago.Was just wondering if anybody has had their car checked with a gigercounter to see if any of that radio active stuff that was in the back lot was still in the car? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Stefano;
I'm sure there were some cars sold out of other dealers when the inventory sheets say Yenko, but there are also several cars sold out of Yenko when the sheets say other dealers (Yunkers for eg). So, although not completely accurate as to the selling dealer, the info suffices for this discussion.

The rough count that I did for the cars sold out of Douglass showed all but one were X66 cars, therefore it appears that he got one of the first shipments like we have all agreed on, but not many more - in fact, the non X66 car may be a replacement?

Who knows, one thing appears clear, Douglass Chev. was not a high volume Yenko SportsCars dealer when compared to other dealers in the network - I didn't count Yenko Chev. when I listed the other higher volume dealers, maybe I should! Douglass certainly had the potential to be one of the higher volume dealers, but he decided to sell COPO cars instead /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sixtiesmuscle]

To the buying & driving public in Chicagoland Marlin,if they were sold as Yenkos they were YENKOS. These cars found their way into all parts of a very large market area, and were seen by a large portion of the target audience, including me. That's all that counted from a market penetration, and, advertising standpoint. I'm not going to guess whether he did or didn't count them, but, he was justified in doing so if he chose to. Knowing how marketing oriented he was, the tendency of that mindset is to inflate the figures using any justification possible. With that in mind, Don may not have been totally happy with the arrangement, but, once that was the only way to get his product into Chicago, it would make sense to enjoy the benefits, and, take full credit for the cars being sold as "HIS" products.
Let's not forget that most business deals are based on mutual benefit, but, where neither party is totally satisfied with the terms.

[Belair62]

Tom....the key word in my sentence was Chicago....it's logical that JD sold the most COPO's in Chicago.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I understand the marketing side of things, and agree that showing a particular number of units sold can be used to show popularity of a given product. However, for someone to attempt to read that silly sign as an inclusion of these JD cars is a super stretch! We know that Don pumped up his numbers for a variety of reasons, which is why we go back to the written records - although not perfect, they are better than anyones memory.

Mike, are you suggesting that because the driving and buying public in Chicagoland believed that these cars were Yenko's - they are indeed Yenko's? I'm not sure what you meant with that statement, so can you clarify?

[sixtiesmuscle]

Yes, I can clarify what I said all along. I think that's about 18 or more thread pages ago. I believe that if a car was sold as a Yenko by Douglass, with some evidence of that fact, that car should be recognized as a "Yenko Camaro" or, at the very least, a Douglass*Yenko Camaro.
Now, I have said my peace, presented my thoughts on the arrangement, and, clarified my position. There will never be a consensus on this subject, so, why do we insist on rehashing this subject over & over? I think we all respect each other's right to an opinion, so, why can't we just leave it at that? I for one, am finished discussing this subject. Again.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Ok, settle down, I was just hoping to have swayed you a little bit, but we are where we began - which is just fine, just two different perspectives.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

It is bound to get interesting when various pieces of memorabilia are being utilized to support a particular side of this subject. I think the non-confrontational dialogue of this post is a step forward, makes for better reading and easier understanding of the two views.

[sYc]

[ QUOTE ]
it's logical that JD sold the most COPO's in Chicago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am still curious how you can say this, without some sort of documentation to back it up. This is not to say that it is not true, but until we get access to Chevy's records, I see no way of knowing for sure. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Unreal]

If Douglass cars are not "real" Yenkos, because the stripes/badges (as supplied by Yenko) were installed at Douglass, then maybe Cannonsburg cars are not "real" Yenkos, unless Don personally installed the stripes/badges. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I don't know if any exist, but would a stripe delete Cannonsburg Yenko be just a COPO? That is not a slam against COPOs, just meant as a differentiation.

Anyway, I'll bet that Don is still pi$$ed at the employee who left the COPO paperwork in that first batch of Douglass-bound Yenkos!!

[sYc]

Mike (and others) do you feel that ALL Douglass COPOs received Yenko trim, and thus should be listed/restored as Yenkos, thus no Douglass COPOs?

[ssl78]

It is kinda of strange that JD only sold early cars. If I was Don, I would have scrambled to find a new Chevy dealer to sell my cars in one of the largest markets in the country. Unless I knew they were still being sold by JD. Yes this is only speculation.

[hvychev]

Tom, is there any other truth than JD sold the most COPO's/Yenko's in Chicago? Who else was selling these cars in the Chicago Metropolitan area back in 1969? Im not talking anywhere else in Illinois. Just the Chi-town metro area.

[Supercar_Kid]

I think a lot is being read into a silly sign from '69 and an interview from '87...that was conducted a full 20 years after Don had built the cars that are in question. The fact that the 350th unit built sign was photographed on BOTH a Camaro AND a Chevelle on the same day shows that neither car could really be THE 350th unit built, whether he meant to include '67s and 8's in the count, or Chevelles and Novas or whatever. Don was a bullsh*tter, this is pretty clear. Claiming he installed Yenko serial plates on all 69 cars, even saying he added headers, removed and upgraded the stock shocks and sway bars, claiming the Chevelles were SS396 engine swap cars or even suggesting that there were more than a few 427 Novas built in '68 are all statements that actual evidence of existing cars contradicts. Maybe he recalled incorrectly, I mean it was 20 years earlier. Maybe the 350th sign was just a marketing promo, or maybe it was made to impress the big whigs at Colonial Chevrolet, a sizable network dealer who Don wanted to make feel special. Maybe it was to fool the NHRA into thinking he was well on his way to builing enough cars for them to be race legal, or maybe it was just a made up number that sounded reasonable and gave Don a little ego boost. I've also seen Don's personal photos of Glen Campbell standing beside a Yenko Deuce in the Colonial showroom, which was surely a publicity deal. Don was a salesman, and he wanted his cars to SELL, whether it meant inflating a few numbers or having a country & western singer appear beside his product. I think Don was all about making a big to do about his cars, himself, his ideas, and rightly so, he was a revolutionary individual in a lot of ways, but I certainly don't think he was above stretching the truth a little. To take the numbers that he apparently claimed on a sign during the time he was actively building and selling the cars, or even the numbers he recalled some 20 years later and try to make them add up, counting *Douglass cars, Canonsburg cars, Chevelles, Camaros, Novas however you want to try is surely an exercise in futility. They just don't add up, cuz they're BS...just my opinion, I'm sure many will disagree. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[sYc]

Very interesting info about the pictures. As you said, pretty much rules out using that sign as a gauge of how many Yenkos were produced.

And makes this whole thread meaningful, if nothing else then to get valuable information about what most people had thought for years was a vital piece of eveidence concerning the number of Yenkos produced. To me, discovering this type of info makes this board worthwhile, and unique. Thanks to you and Brandon for sharing it.

[ssl78]

Supercar kid this isnt all about the sign. This has been a on going discussion for a while. Tom according to Jack he paid a fee for every one of the copos to be sold as Yenkos. wheter or not they were sold as Yenkos we dont know. Since most cars retain its original tail panel that is about the only way to tell for sure. I dont know of any JD copos found that do not have the holes for the Yenko emblems in the rear tail panel. So at this time I think it is safe to say they all can be restored as Yenkos.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

John, I don't find that strange at all. Apparently, the first few batches of Yenko Camaros sold pretty well, for most of the participating dealers. If Jack had 6+/- of the X66 cars on his lot, then ordered up another 22-25 COPO cars on his own, he had plenty of cars to move, and didn't buy anymore from Don. By the time they dissolved their prior agreement of Jack being the exclusive Chicago dealer for sYc's, the insurance problem was in effect. It is understandable that few if any of the other Chicago dealers would have been anxious to get their hands on some distressed merchandise. Once the Deuce was loose in '70, several Chicago dealers were on board - except Douglass.

[ssl78]

Marlin you take little segments of the dicussion to make each argument look like your right. There is a whole picture here to be looked at. You are calling JD a liar. I would like to know why JD said it happened what does he have to gain by it, and why Don mentioned it happened. We should throw all that away because you think it didnt happen. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[sYc]

[ QUOTE ]
So at this time I think it is safe to say they all can be restored as Yenkos

[/ QUOTE ] .

John, to me that creates up a very interesting situation, with a blanket statement like that, not only are we liable to see Yenkos in all colors, with all kinds of rare options, ones not normalaly asscoiated with Yenko built cars, but we may very well see a Yenko Camaro convertible, Yenko El Camino, Yenko Corvette, etc. You see, I am sure JD was no different then any other dealer of that era. If a customer was willing to pay the $$$, it was built, including putting Yenko trim on ANY car they had in inventory. I do not feel that this is a stretch of the imagination to believe this happened.

Thus, I feel there are two options. 1. since JD had an agreement with Don and had the trim in hand, acknowledge all Douglass cars as Yenkos, or 2. require documented proof of any Douglass car before it is allowed to have the name Yenko associated with it. To me, this is easy, as we require documentation of all other supercars before they are accepted as legit.

[hvychev]

Mr Clary I am still waiting to hear who else in Chicago was selling Yenko/COPO cars in 1969. If not then in fact JD was the leading COPO/Yenko dealer in Chicago.

[SuperCars]

[ QUOTE ]
If there was a post about bottled water somehow the JD cars would be brought up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Belair, what kind of bottled water do you drink over there? I bet it's not as good as the crystal clear pure water of the North West. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Oh, but maybe they ship our water over there. You don't be putting stripes on that bottle now! Hmmm! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[sYc]

John, I do not think anyone is calling JD a liar. More like questioning what/how he remembers from the past. And, in this hobby, this is not unusual. I have spent many hours visiting with various supercar personalities from the past, and how found all to be very honest and in sincere in what they say, but when compared against known facts, at times come up short. I have read more then one supercar personality interview , including, but not limited to Don Yenko's, that was "a little off". Remember, is was over 30 years ago when this all took place.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

John,
The 'little segment' you are referring to is actually from your 'little' post! Way to make friends!

We have been over the big picture before, this little discussion is about a silly sign that some people are attempting to claim included the Douglass * Yenko COPO cars. Inherent in that claim is the basis of the original discussion, that Jack and Don had an agreement for Jack to stripe his COPO's as Yenko's. My contention is that the sign is insignificant, and cannot be construed to include anything more than a marketing ploy of some sort.

I am not calling Jack a liar, I'm simply asking for more solid proof. To me, his recollection of what happened over 30 years ago is insufficient. Don was a certified genius, and couldn't remember what he did only 17 years later during the MCR interview. The 'estate document' only states what happened, Jack used the stripe kits to make his COPO cars more saleable. There is nothing in that document about an pre-arranged agreement. I like paperwork, others can do without it, both positions are fine for the particular individual.

[sYc]

If we are talking Yenkos, then yes JD. If COPOs, I don't know. Maybe Nickey? They sold a few "hot cars".

[SS427]

[ QUOTE ]
You see, I am sure JD was no different then any other dealer of that era. If a customer was willing to pay the $$$, it was built, including putting Yenko trim on ANY car they had in inventory. I do not feel that this is a stretch of the imagination to believe this happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may finally answer my question that has gone unanswered on here as to the 1969 LeMans Blue Impala with Yenko stripes I looked at in approximetaly 1976. Car was a 427/425 4-speed and was advertised in the Star Tribune. Could this have been one of JD's cars that he striped? I may never know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Rick

[sYc]

Interesting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Belair62]

Kevin we drink heavily chemicaled Lake Michigan water....the water bottles can be striped because there was a deal with King Neptune to allow it .Keep your yucky NW water...it's probably loaded with chemical fallout unlike our pristine lakes in the midwest. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[hvychev]

Charlies dog drinks California toilet water! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Supercar_Kid]

This post has turned into a rehashing of the "Should Yenko trimmed Douglass COPOs be considered real Yenkos?" debate all over again. I think the number issue has become a round about way of arguing whether or not Don considered these cars as his own or not. It's obvious that Don Yenko didn't pay particularly close attention to the number of cars he was preparing himself, let alone ones that may or may not have been prepared at Douglass Chevrolet with or without his permision. Don was far more concerned with selling as many sYcs as he could than he was with counting each and every one, which may be why he didn't feel the need to add serial plates to the '69s or even partially why he made the agreement with Jack to allow him to produce sYcs on site. Fortunately Don Yenko kept pretty decent records of the cars he was converting at his dealership and selling and or transferring to other dealers, which is where much of the FACTUAL numbers that are accepted today have their origins. Were all Douglass COPOs sold in Yenko trim? Apparently no one knows for sure. But why try to group them together with the ones Don trimmed at his own Canonsburg dealership? I think if I owned a Douglass COPO and had some sort of believable evidence that the car was originally sold new with Yenko trim, then I'd restore it and show it that way, and explain that it is a unique instance in Yenko history where a COPO car was trimmed Yenko style by a network dealer, perhaps with permission, perhaps not, but sold to the original owner as a sYc 427 car. The unique colors and options only make them more unique. Trying to lump these *special cars in with the Canonsburg prepared cars only seems to be a way of making them out to be something they aren't. These are very unique and very desirable cars in their own right, whether Don accepted them as his own back in '69 or whether anyone else excepts them to be "real" Yenkos today, they are certainly an exception to the rule and should be recognized as such, don't look at an * as a badge of shame, look at it as a distinguishing mark or recognition that sets the Douglass prepared cars apart from the rest, for better or worse, that's to be determined by the buyers and sellers of these unique cars...dare to be different. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[copo9566aa]

[ QUOTE ]
This post has turned into a rehashing of the "Should Yenko trimmed Douglass COPOs be considered real Yenkos?"

[/ QUOTE ] .........
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif debate all over again.
.......

[Charley Lillard]

My Dogs ain't big enough to reach the Toilet. And now you are on their list....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[Stefano]

This is getting a bit far-fetched. Jack's Memory and Story have remained intact many years prior to the internet ,this web sight and this subject getting national attention, There was a time when only two of his cars had been found and not very many people even knew there was a difference between the two order method Yenkos, even hear in Chicago, it just didn't matter!

Jack never stated that he striped and sold any other direct order cars as Yenkos, other than the Camaros and Chevelles.

His story has proven very accuarte as time unfolds and it certainly is not appropriate to compare an article or written interview when you have the first person(s) (numerous people) accountability, to answer any questions you may have.

I still ponder(Tom and Marlin.. ect) if you do indeed seek accuracy and truth in your statements why you have not picked up the phone and called Jack. I had private e-mailed both of you his telephone number once I received permission to do so, in the last go around.

Do you really care about furthering the Hobby of all Super Cars or just protecting the value of your own private cars/collections?

I do not currently own a Douglass Yenko, but do own several Yenkos sold out of Yenko Chevrolet and the, Douglass cars do not detract one bit of historic significance or value, from my other cars, in fact they enhance them!

Most Douglass Yenko owners also own other significant muscle cars and Super Cars.

It is not only Jack Douglass,but Family members, his General Manager Tom Dumass and Several of his dealer colleagues and friends who confirm his story, as well as the cars themselves.

There exists to this day no other dealer who has come forth as a part of the Yenko Network to have direct ordered cars and sold them as Yenkos.

There have been no cars found with stripes and badges from day one or no original owners who have come forth and proven they had purchased such a car from another dealer.

It is utterly ridiculous to believe that in 1969 Jack Douglass had to charge 12-15% more for his cars to even sell them. I would agree that Don's own choosen words are how he wanted the situation to be remembered. IMO He was covering his assets and that is the way he intended his story/article to read and be remembered.

This would be the equivalent of purchasing a New 2002 SLP Camaro SS for $35,000.00 and agreeing to pay almost $3,500.00 to $5,000.00 more just for stripes and badges, it just wouldn't have happened that way.

If Jack was to have skirted Yenko, it would be prudent to see that it would have been much easier to sell a cheaper Super Car.


Look at the time line and build of the Cars Douglass sold. We have very early casting and stamping dates on original drivetrain cars which would indicate the order was placed early in the year and support Jacks statements of what took place. If you choose believe that Don Yenko found it prudent to only have one single dealer order 8-12 sYc's as Tom stated, and be happy with that arangement in the top three car markets in the USA ,at the time ,then that is your prerogative.

I recently showed my COPO Chevelle at the Chicago Vette Fest in a Super Car display along with a Douglass Yenko and a Cannonsberg Yenko.

All Super cars were displayed and represented for just what they are. I am proud to have been a part of that display and happy to have met new friends in the process and this is really what it is about to me.

Allow individuals form their own opinions about the Douglass cars.



Love and Peace to all,

Stefano

[sYc]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really care about furthering the Hobby of all Super Cars or just protecting the value of your own private cars/collections?


[/ QUOTE ]

Stefano, Sorry that you felt the need to get personal. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif I thought bigger of you.
Guess I was wrong. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[hvychev]

Tom, this whole topic has taken a terriable turn. I wish I had not brought it up. I have one last question on this matter though. With all of the controversy and heated debates surrounding this topic why didn't you or Marlin ever call Jack and speak to him yourselfs. Tom you are always mentioning a new supercar "personality" that you have spoken to or supercar location that you have visited. Why not talk to or visit the most controversal one of all?

[Belair62]

Frank all you did was ask to see an article you never saw before.....and someone was able to scan it for you...its a cool article...looks like innocent comments turned into another Douglass discussion is all.

[sYc]

Frank, weeks before SCR5, through a mutual friend, I extended an invitation for Jack to attend the event, at my expense. Not for sure why it did not materialize. As I have said numerous times, I have absolutley nothing against Jack, his cars or their owners. I would love to visit with him some time. Monday night I spent over 2 hours on the phone with a Douglass owner, discusing numerous things, including each others thoughts about JD and DY. I even went as far as to check my records and numbers, for not only Douglass, but Yenko info as well (at no cost). I even faxed him a copy of the DY, JD document. In addition, for the past two weeks I have been communicating with another Douglass owner in regards to his car and related paperwork. This dialog may be helpful in clearing up some of the Douglass puzzle. My point is this. If I did not respect Douglass cars, why would I bother. I certaintly have plenty of other things I could be doing.

In closing, as the Douglass owner and I talked about Monday, why is it so important to link the cars to Yenko? If I were an owner of a Douglass car, here is what I would do. The same as I have done with Yenko, and others have done with Gibb, Harrell, Berger and Motion. I would collect all of the info, pics, doucments and related memorabilia as I could related to Douglass. Then I would display this collection with my car any time I could. I would go on various web sites and explain who and what JD Chevrolet was. My goal would be to make the JD name as well known as the other well known supercar dealers. Can it be done, I think so, but will never happen as long as they carry the Yenko *. Douglass cars deserve, should and can stand on their own. And, I would think this is how Jack would like to be remembered, not as an * to Yenko.

[ssl78]

Tom if people were questionong JD about how many cars he sold as Yenkos, or what color they were, or what options they had, or exactly how much he paid Don, yes there might be a variation on those issues. If people dont believe he sold them as Yenkos then they absolutely think he is lying. There is no way a guy could pay say 400.00 a car at 22 cars 8800.00 or there about in 1969 and not remeber it correctly . It isnt just the money but also what ever dealings with Don there also was.
If I owned a McDonald franchise and found out where to buy the hamburgers direct and so did, and then McDonalds found out and had to pay the franchise fee back, did I not sell a McDonald hamburger. Jack was to a degree a Yenko franchise.
I am not normally an argumentive person and dont know why I decided to even get involved with this topic. I could have bought a PA Yenko but bought what I believe is a JD order and sold Yenko. The key here is what I believe. I would have liked to bring it to the reunion for what it is but probably wont. If this topic gets so out of hand on the board could you imagine the sh-t it would start at the reunion.
Hopefully we can end this discussion right here before things are said and taken the wrong way. I cant talk for Steve But I dont think he meant much buy what he said.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Frank, I have not spoken with Jack about these cars, not that I have anything against the guy, I just didn't see where it would benefit me. I trust that Steve, Mike and others who have dealt with Jack have relayed his words accurately. I am only asking to see some supporting documents, that's all.

[whitetop]

ssl78
[ QUOTE ]
If this topic gets so out of hand on the board could you imagine the sh-t it would start at the reunion.


[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are going to fight about this JD & DY thing forever. Saw a show on the History Channel the other night that would be the answer. Men in the old days solved their disagrements by a Duel with either swords or pistols.

Kinda liven up SCR6 wouldn't you think? The old wheelbarrow race and spark plug changing contest would never be the same.

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
Saw a show on the History Channel the other night. Men in the old days satisfied their disagrements by a Duel with either swords or pistols. Kinda liven up SCR6 wouldn't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that would liven up SCR6, but I think it would have a negative effect on the attendance of SCR7... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Actually, John, I would like to see one in person! We've been talking about them so much, but I have yet to see one. Personally, debate issues aside, I think it would be neat to see a Douglass * Yenko car that wasn't one of the primary 6 colors - with the different style trim group etc... So, bring it out, leave the debate on the board, and enjoy the cruises and shows.

I'm not an argumentative person either, just enthusiastic about these cars - and I've never owned a Camaro, only Novas.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[sYc]

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully we can end this discussion right here before things are said and taken the wrong way

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a little late for that. I can tolerate a lot of things, but not questioning my motives, which to me is questioning my integrity. IMO, that is crossing the line.

[moparts]

"WOW" This thread makes my head hurt. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Sounds like Charlies dogs may be drinking better water that some of use are. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I know some of DY numbers can be quite off, the 81 turbo z paperwork I had showed I think 200 turbo z's. Then another copy had that crossed out and 70 marked in. I can't remember for sure as paperwork went with the car when I sold it. (Stefano I think you have those now?) And now the best guess is 19 or so. If I am looking for one I want the 200 to be true (more of a chance to find one). If I have one I am looking at the 19 as a better number.

I sold lawn and garden equipment about 10 years ago, if someone liked what I sold and was wanting one then I had hundreds out there with no problems. When the bill came due on my inventory I never sold enough. And for me to remember how many I sold, to who, what color, what options, etc. now?????? you get my drift. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Do you ever think DY ever thought that any of this would be going on now?

sting (http://ortrackm.missouri.org/~moparts/sting)

[shor]

ssl78, john,and all
I have been kind of sitting back and watching this one unfold on it's own, without much input from myself. Not because I don't care, but just because we have been down this road before. The cars are what they are.
As far as you not bringing your car to the reunion.....well I think that would be a real shame. I,as well as many others, was looking forward to seeing your car this year.
I think you would be doing yourself and the hobby a disservice by not showing it.

[shor]

I would look forward to meeting you and seeing your car this year.
Chris

[Clint_69]

Here is a picture of my car in 1970. Notice the endura bumper and the cowl induction hood. Also, take notice to the 15 inch rallys on wide ovals. I am fortunate to have pictures of the car when it was close to being new. What do you guys think?

[hvychev]

WOW! Clint that is really cool that he gave you a pic! Do you have anymore? Where was he from? I am sure that if he bought the car in Hinsdale, he was from IL right? Where are the Yenko emblems?

[Clint_69]

The original owner was from the Arlington Heights area. He was a United Airlines employee in Chicago. He got transfered out west shortly after he purchased the car and that is where these pictures were taken. There are no visible Yenko emblems on the car. Kind of funny what 35 years will do to you. In a recent conversation, the owner still insists that there were Yenko decals in the engine compartment. I will restore the car without them though unless the original owner produces a picture showing them in the engine compartment. Other than that, the car will look identical to what you see in the picture. Check out the front spoiler!

[Charley Lillard]

OK...Clint..That is a really Cool Car but looking at that 1970 pic there is nothing that says Yenko to me. I would call that a Copo. And from that pic I would not call it a Yenko because when I think Yenko I think Yenko Stripes. Thanks for posting the pic. Question for the Masses... Based on that Photo would anyone call it a Yenko. Stephano ? Not trying to cause trouble, just watching the debate evolve ?

[ssl78]

Charlie, I really dont want to get this started again but there is one question Clint never answered. Did he have an original tail panel and did it have the holes for the Yenko emblem.

[Clint_69]

Over the weekend, I spoke with the gentleman who is restoring my car. To the best of his knowlege, the tail pan never had additional holes in it. And yes, we still have the original tail pan. It only had the two holes for the bowtie.

[mc25t190]

lets all make our own decision as to what these cars are and be happy! i would describe them as really cool and mysterious and would be proud to own one and i have nothing but yenkos! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I think most have already decided what these cars for themselves, the discussion surrounding them is interesting though. Thanks for the pic Clint, quite nice!

[Belair62]

Another excellent pic that must really help in your restoration.Great car.Great info.

[Stefano]

"Very Cool Pic"

[ssl78]

No matter who thinks what, they all run the same. Strat sure makes good hamburgers but he is one losey photographer.

[ssl78]

one more

[L78Impala]

That Yenko looks good in white. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Bill

[Belair62]

I'm surprised that wheezer COPO can turn the tires over.....looks like you went to the Stefano school of driving..

[ssl78]

It probably was the same school, the only difference was I passed. I was still able to get in the * car today and drive it to work.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

John, regardless as to our differences in perspective, it's nice to see that you drive and enjoy the car! That's what they were built for in the first place, kudo's to you /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[ssl78]

Thanks Marlin, I wouldnt own them if I couldnt drive them. I have been driving theese kind of cars since I was sixteen. The only difference is back then I bought them to break them, Now I buy them to enjoy them.

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
The only difference is back then I bought them to break them, Now I buy them to enjoy them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it amazing the difference a few years makes!? Do you ever get a chance to take the cars to a track? I've heard Rt. 66 is awesome!

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
the only difference was I passed

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ssl78]

I plan on bringing my RS SS ZL-1 to Super Chevy this year. A group of guys also plan on renting out Byron one of theese weeks.

[sYc]

Cint, Neat looking car! Hard to beat a Daytona Yellow Double COPO with endura bumper. Right Charley? Looking forward to seeing your Douglass car at a Supercar Reunion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Chevy454]

Hard to beat a track rental! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

While we're on the subject, you northern Illinois/Indiana guys might want to jump across the line to Martin, MI, May 23 and check out the F.A.S.T. racing. I'll be there with dad's Yenko Camaro, and Pete will be there with his ZL-1 powered COPO Camaro, along with lots of other cool cars. Should be some big fun, and some good racing. I hope to pick up where we left off last year and run some 12.80s...what're you shooting for, Pete? 11's? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Oh yeah, we rented Gateway Intl. for this year's Reunion (hint hint)....

[hvychev]

[ QUOTE ]
I've heard Rt. 66 is awesome!



[/ QUOTE ]

Rob I raced my Chevelle their about a week ago for the test n tune. The track is a really cool modern track. I had a couple of decent runs of 13.90's at I think 97 mph. My buddy has a 2001 Z28 Camaro 6 speed with just a couple of bolt on adds and ran 12.84@115mph on the stock street tires and no headers!!

[Chevy454]

That's a HUGE mph for a 12.84, Frank! What does he have done?

[hvychev]

Rob I was mistaking it was actually 111.50mph I reread the thread he posted on LS1 tech. (I think you are a member there) Here it is with all the other stats. Still an impressive run none the less.

http://www.ls1tech.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB5&Number=167307&page=2& view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1

[hvychev]

You know I just have to make this comment. I just read a few threads on LS1tech.com and their is a lot of trash talking foul mouthed people! My buddy included! I am not acting like I don't curse, but when you see it on an internet forum it just seems to look low rent. That is why I do not participate in any other forums. This one gives you the best bang for the buck! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Chevy454]

Agreed, Frank. There is some really good info on some of those boards, but when you have to wade through the foul language and/or childish BS, it just simply becomes too much hassle. We here on this board may disagree on something as simple as a paint dab, yet it remains relatively civilized...this is a rare find on the net these days.

[COPO PETE]

[ QUOTE ]
...what're you shooting for, Pete? 11's? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif....

[/ QUOTE ]
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Peter