Motion Tires

[COPO]

I'm in the process of restoring my 69 BM Camaro and wanted to solicit some opinions on tires. For wheels I will be using Crager SS.

[JoeG]

Hello Copo,
Polyglas,radials, different size tire frt/rear??---JoeG
Supercars-web-site--has some variety you can actually see.

[JoeC]

for front tires they sometimes used the original tire turned around to a black wall.

[COPO]

I thought I would bump this post back up to get a few more opinions. I will be running 15x8 Cragers SS on the rear and 15x6 up front. My understanding is the largest rear tire that will fit in the wheel wells is equivalent to a 235x60Rx15. The car will be Daytona Yellow with black striping and mid-year corvette side exhaust. I was planning to make a run up to Chattanooga in the next few days to pick up the tires from Coker Tire so I need to make a decision soon. Thanks

[Stefano]

COPO,
I have put 255 60 R15 T/As on Z28/Yenko 15x7s on the rear of a '69 Camaro with no problem.

[chevelleman]

I had a 69 Camaro 350 car that I put a set of 15x8 weld drag wheels on with 4.5 back space and was able to run a 275/60/15 BFG drag radial. I can send you a pic if you like.

[JoeC]

Is this the tire look you are going for?
Pro Trac has a repro tire on thier site p235/60-15 that is 27x10x15. This may be the closest you can get to the old Ingelwoods but I am not sure of all tires that are available today. Joel used to roll in the inner edge of the q-panel to get more clearance. Funny thing on my 87 Motion Monte SS, Joel put wide 16" wheels and he rolled in the wheelwell. He built cars the same way for over 30 yrs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[SMGCO]

Backspacing to the max ( ie, 1/2" clearance ) has worked best for me. I have only been able to fit about 4 1/2" of back space in. However a custom wheel maker like Stockton Wheel Co. in Stockton Ca. can make a custom set for you with a little more back spacing but they are very expensive.

[JoeG]

COPO,
JoeC is right about rolling the inner wheel-well lip--but most of the times the cars were raised slightly all around to avoid rubbing with the L series Inglewoods.----JoeG

[whitetop]

I would not run the small 235 on the rear-looks dorky. I would run 275-60-15 Pro-Tracs. I know they will fit without any rubbing. I just saw a pic of a '69 that ran 15x8 Cragars and 275-60 M/T's and the car was not raised. As a bonus the Pro-tracs are just slightly less in width than the m/t/s and actually came out before the M/T's in '70 so they are more correct for your application anyway. L-60-15 (275-60) M/T's were introduced in March '71. Pro Tracs came out in mid to late '70' based on the ads I've seen.

I think with rims/tires if not sure what to run always go bigger to be safe. A bigger tire looks less dorky than e smaller tire.
I'll post the pic tomorrow. You will agree the 275 looks best once you see it.
Dave

[Schonyenko2]

Does pro trac have a web site? Schonye

[JoeG]

Hello Whitetop,
I wasn't suggesting he go for the 235's,if the 275's fit thats the way to go if he choses. Usually the L series Ingelwoods would rub on a hard launch or if you had some friends in the back seat and went over a nice bump,- But the tire sizes are a bit different from back then, I was just giving him some info to be aware of, as he got close to the old L series Ingelwoods size. It was also a required option with Motion to raise the car all around when getting L series Ingelwoods.---But like you said the 275's fit nicely---Sounds good.--JoeG-- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[JoeC]

[ QUOTE ]
(from whitetop)... if not sure what to run always go bigger to be safe

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good one Dave /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[whitetop]

The L series Inglewoods based upon the catalogs I have are around 9" wide and 28" tall, some were 29 and 30" tall. Coker says the 275 60 pro Trac is 10" wide but I just measured a set they had on display at Carlisle and measure actually 9 1/2. Even M/T's measurements in th catlog are slightly larger than in real life.

Copo
Most of the Motion cars I've seen in the mags from the period are not level but have a nice rake, and large rear tires. The 235's will make your car look like a taildragger IMO. I found a good pic and will post it later today or tonight.

[COPO]

It sounds like tire fittment should not be a problem, so it looks like I'll go with the 275's w/15x8's on the rear and 235's w/15x6's on the front. Hopefully, Coker has them in stock!

Dave, if you can post a pic, that would be great. Thanks for all the replies! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[whitetop]

Charlie
I will post the pic later today. Are you sure you want to go with 235x60's for the front? They will have a funky sidewall on 15x6 rims. The tires will look puckered in. They would work on 15x7 but are still to wide IMO to look good on front. F-70-15 would look better with 15x6 Cragars on the front. 235 -60's is the bias ply equivalant of a G-60-15. If you are wanted a 60 series tire on front I would go with an F-60. The G-60 in front will make your car look like a Trans Am racer or G machine unless that is the look you want.
Wasn't the biggest 60 series tire available on the muscle a F-60?
Dave

[whitetop]

Charlie

Here are the specs for this pic L-60-15 rear (275-60-15) on 15x8 wheels, article mentioned the rear size but not the front. Looks like 15x6 on F-70. I know the rear size is correct per the article because in the pic I can see the L-60-15 on the sidewall (7:00 position). I have small pic from the front and the tires are definetly not 60 series.
Also he is running air shocks. I back from my original position. You may need to run air shocks, small shackles or rearched springs to get the car up in the rear to clear the tires. However, this car definetly has the right stance and look.
Dave

[whitetop]

Another 69. 275-60 rear on 15x8, 15x6 front on F-70-15.
You can see the 70 series on the front sidewall. I personally don't like the M/T F-70 tires. They are too wide and have a funkly look. Best is Goodyear or Firestone F-70. Car has a nice rake.

[whitetop]

Rear shot

[whitetop]

The right way a Camaro should sit. Raised front and rear with a nice rake. But this is my opinion. Can't handle tail draggers.

[whitetop]

Another 69 with 275 -60 radials on 15x8. Car ran 14x6 front with 195-75 or 205 -75 radials. Just remember the fron tire were too small in width. Rim is wider than tire tread so you get the bulging sidewall.

[JoeG]

Hi Whitetop,
Nice photos-- I also liked a slight rake on a car.--JoeG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[COPO]

Dave, many thanks for all the pictures and the advice. Unfortunately, the availability of sizes in the Pro-tracs is pretty limited. Here is a link to the Coker website listing the Pro-trac sizes they carry http://www.cokertire.com/default2.asp

Given the Reunion is only a week away, I need to get something now and I can put some different fronts on later if the look is not right. Sounds like I might have to use a 14" front to get the right look??

[Born30YrsLate]

Have you thought about putting redlines on the car?....I've been looking at a company that makes redline radials in all the popular sizes and am contemplating on putting them on my '69 camaro (the car is nothing special other than the fact it was my "first"). Anybody ever use these tires? I've provided a link to their website if you are interested......... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Redline Radial Tires (http://www.widewhitewalltires.com/redline.htm)

[Zedder]

Whitetop, You've got the look down perfectly there! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[tom406]

The backspacing on those Cragar 8" wheels will be your killer. I'm guessing they're 3-3/4" like Americans, and this will lead to contact with your fender lip. 15x7" rims with 4.25" or 15x8" with 4.5" of backspacing seem to be the key to fitting big rubber (255 or 275/60s and their bias equivalents). If it were mine, I'd have the Cragar's cut and rewelded to increase the backspace. Even jacked up, I don't want that tire to hit my car. If you're really pressed for time, I'd mount F70's on the 6" cragars, and paint up some 15x7" steel rims with 4.25" backspacing with the big tires (mount some slicks maybe?) to give it a weekend race ready look, and take some time to sort out your 8" Cragar/tire size/final stance decisions.

Don't go 14's on the front, staggered wheel sizes just never look right.....

Somebody take a picture and post it of this car at the reunion. It'll be nice to see what happens!

[whitetop]

Copo
I personally like 14x6 with F-70-14 for the front but that is a personal preferance. The 15x6 on a '69 Camaro/Nova look to big. The wheels on the ralley green Camaro are 15x8 rear(reversed deep dish) and 14x6 front.
And actually many of the Motion cars used 14" on the front and 15" rear. Joel would run the factory 14" Firestones/Goodyears up front on 14x6 cragars and run 15x8 or 15x10 Cragars on the rear. This is how Mark Timken did his '70 B/M Camaro. Motion would use the factory front tire to just use them up and go to big meats out the back as any factory tire was worthless. Remember this is how it was done back then as these cars were street racers and the big and little look was what people wanted. Mismatched brand/size of tires from front to rear was the norm.
Again this is my preferance but I would run a good year F-70-14 on the front and a Pro-Trac L-60 on the rear. I think in one of the pics of a lineup of Motion '70 Camaros the fronts were Firestone wide ovals and the rears were M/T's.

Tom406, the backspacing for a 15x8 Cragar is 4 1/4. The wheels are tucked in more than a American TT.

Copo, you asked for wheel/tire opinions. You sure did get mine! That is what makes this hobby so great everybody wants a different look.
Dave

[COPO]

I really appreciate everyone's input! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[whitetop]

Charlie
You mentioned you was putting on sidepipes and the large Motion rear wing. You are adding a lot of "bulk" to the rear of the car. Large rear tires will help counterbalance this and keep everything in proportion.
Too skinny/small of a rear tire combination will make your car look like size 13EEE shoes on roller skates.
Dave

[JoeC]

The only trouble is that if the tires hit I don't think you will want to do the old school fix which was take a baseball bat and roll it between the tire and q-panels to roll the inner edge under. You may need to play with the spring arch to get the right clearance.

[whitetop]

Or put on air shocks temporarily.

[COPO]

I do not want to roll the rear lip of the fenders as I have a fortune in bodywork and paint in this car. I may need to just put something on it for now to make the show and then finish it and sort things out for next year. I'm out of time as far as getting re-arched springs, etc. If Joel was not going to be at the show then I would be bringing a different car this year and just wait on the Motion to be finished for next year.

Once again, appreciate all the input. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[JoeG]

COPO,
Joel going to this years Reunion and you finishing your car worked out perfect,now you can bounce your ideas off Joel,-----just stop him if he takes a baseball bat out of his trunk to roll back your wheel lip. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PxTx]

Is it safe to say they are no longer the original 1/4's if they no have the inner lip?

[JoeG]

pxtx,
It's safe to say anything /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif---but on a quality restoration all factory welds/lips would be where they should, using GM parts---------I can't answer you on repo parts.--JoeG

[PxTx]

Slight type-o previously. Here is what I was trying to get at...

I would expect a Motion prepped car to have the ol' bat roll done on the lip to fit the largest tire possible. If COPO's car had it's original 1/4 lips and is a Motion car (no disputing that) it would be a little surprizing. If the lips are there due to 1/4 replacement, it would seem more reasonable.

I've found from experience that most of cars around this part of the country need the 1/4 replaced/reworked as part of any type of restoration. The recently uncovered Orange Deuce is a perfect example. Joe, I'm sure you can relate too.

Anyways, I understand the majority of the cars discussed here are worthy of the higher quality restorations and am not looking to take anything away from that side of things. I look forward to seeing everyone and the cars they bring to the SCR6!

[COPO]

The 1/4's were replaced with NOS pieces on my car and all the factory welds have been duplicated throughout the resto process. When finished, it will certainly be over-restored, but that's my personal preference. I was not interested in duplicating assembly line type quality, I do however recognize that some people like the orange peel and oversprayed paint. I do however, plan to drive it on occassion and make some passes at the track from time to time. L-88, 4.88's, M-22 and a Hone O.D. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[JoeC]

found this picture of a 69 Motion Camaro with 14in Goodyear WT GT on front and Inglewoods on back. Can't tell what size on back.
One thing odd I notice after looking at about 15 pictures of different 1969 Motion cars (from 1969) none have the Motion emblem on them.

[JoeC]

This car looks like it was a COPO 427.

[COPO]

Joe C, I asked Marty Schorr about the car you posted. He swears that no one at Motion knew of the COPO cars, but the picture sure looks like one?? Would be an excellent question this Friday evening for both Joel and Marty.

[musclcar]

did the motion cars run those ansen aluminum mag wheels.i've heard about the 15x4 fronts so what did they run on the rears 15x8 or 15x10 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[COPO]

I used to own a 71 BM Camaro that came from Motion w/Ansen Sprints. The rear wheels on my car were 15x8's. If you look in older CARS magazines there are many articles showing Motion cars with Ansen's

[JoeC]

here is a nice wheel tire pic. It's Mr Motion putting the wheel on a 69 Z. Article says they tried goodyear blue streak and Ingelwoods L-series but dosen't give size.

[djunod]

Mainly bringing this thread back to the top...

Attached is a photo that shows that an adjustable Air Lift was used to raise the back of the car.

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/150318-Image1.jpg