Sweet '70 L78 Nova on Ebay

[55chevy]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2437174251&category=61 72 Great price too. Wish I had the $$$ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[T Billigen]

WOW! Nice car! Love that color! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[55chevy]

Thats Cranberry Red isn't it?

[SD396]

Don't Know if its the same one but a year or two back there was a red GM of Canada documented L78 Nova that was sold out of Vancouver into Washington state. The U.S. owner tried to return the car after only one week when he found out the history of the car. The car was advertised out of Vancouver and Washington state after that. Don't know what happened to it after that.

[55chevy]

So what was the history of the car? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Don't leave us dangling...... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[lowmile]

I hate to beat up someone elses car but here are a few things that need a little closer look. These are some quotes from Steves Nova page.
"I still have the GM Canada documentation for the 1970 L78 SS I foolishly sold 5 years ago. On the eBay car's documentation, notice a cut or fold after 'colour.' There are 6 more lines on mine after that giving Production Plant, Shipping Date, Model Number, Engine, Selling Dealer and Number Produced for Sale in Canada. They may have deleted these just to make the page fit, or ?? Also, the M40 THM400 was listed under Options on mine. My car also had the ZL5 Exterior Decor option which I believed included the full length mid body front to rear molding that mine had. I don't think there is any doubt this car is for real (check the GM Canada Cold Weather Oil Recommendation sticker still on inner right fender shirt). As someone else suggested, I think it's been quite highly modified in it's past life with a rush effort to restore to stock." Bob


1. a non-blacked out grill and tail panel

2. a non-big block core support? Huh

3. a steering wheel horn shroud that looks like a '69 part (different grain)

4. a column-shifted TH-400 Nova with no "PRND21" on the speedometer. Shocked

5. a GM sheet that doesn't even mention a transmission code.

6. a GM sheet calling out 731 as "black patterned fabric". Isn't 731 the standard vinyl? Why does it have carpet in there? And reproduction deluxe door panels? And mismatched front and rear seat covers?

Oops, too many things in #6.

7. a seat tag with B84 and B90 codes.... B84 is body side molding. I don't see any.

I'll add 8. The engine doesn't look offset enoug to the passenger side. So it must have SB Frame mounts.
here is an old link to ebay the last time it was on the auction block it had a tunnel ram
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=243589 5897&category=6172 The seller removed those pics from the old add.

[55chevy]

Man.. WHAT AN EYE /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif.. I saw NONE of that.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif I just saw a nice looking Nova that appeared clean in the pics.. But I looked back at everything you mentioned an you are right on the money man. You may have just saved someone here from a dented wallet and anger management classes.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif That Rad.support just looks Butchered on the ends.. If that really is a #s car, a little effort and time taken on it would bring it back to correctness and increase it's value many times over. BTW lowmile.. checked out your bio.. is that hugger orange 6 banger Nova you have the same one Wayne Bushey used to own? I have a feeling it is.. If so I crawed all over that thing and even set in the seat. I still think it needs a big block and a hurst t-handle 4spd curving up around that black bench to make it right. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[hvychev]

Ok now it is my turn even though the car is not mine and I have no clue who the owner is.

1. Where in the description did it say that the car is as correct as the factory built it and why all the nit picking of individual options?

2. Why all the suspision about the documentation on the car? The owner seemed up front about showing a copy of the build sheet and the GM of Canada paperwork. You could always submit for new GM Canada paperwork before the auction ends if you are that serious right?

3. WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO FIND A REAL L78 DRIVER QUALITY NOVA FOR A RESERVE PRICE OF $16,000?????? HELLO!!!!!!!!

Oh, that is only 3 things not 8 or what ever # you had...........Man what is it with people on this site bashing other peoples cars?????????? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif Nothing bothers me more than when the "Diamond Certification" judges on this site come out and start bashing some guys car that isn't even here to defend himself about it not being correct when the person isn't even claiming it to be or even wanting it to be for that matter.

Rob I have a request. The next person that bashes another guys car should be REQUIRED to have his car/cars put under a microscope for all to ANALize and critique and see how he takes it. Oh and by the way this is just MY humble opinion.

[55chevy]

Frank has a damn good point and leads me right back to my theory on life and these cars.. Buy it at a great price and drive the $hit out of it.! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif Sorry Frank, I kinda got caught up in all the little factory details I missed that lowmile pointed out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif And then I went on to hash about "correctness and stuff???" I'm going for a Miller Lite now.. The ONLY thing that would be correct about this car would be my ass in the seat and my foot to the floor in that thing. I think it's a great looking Nova and I wish it was in my driveway right now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
The ONLY thing that would be correct about this car would be my ass in the seat and my foot to the floor in that thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[JoeG]

Pretty up-front presentation---looks like a solid L78/Nova-just ask the right questions---JoeG

[lowmile]

The internet has been great for the car hobby in many ways but if you sell one one the internet you open yourself up to nit picking. I happen to know a fair amount about Novas just because I've had the great pleasure of owning a few. I know if I was about to purchase a 1970 Boss Mustang off ebay I would thank anyone who might point out something that might need a closer look because I know nothing about Fords. By the same token if I were selling a Mustang and not doing a good job of representing it because of ignorance on my part I would appreciate input from a real Ford guy. It would help me inform prospetive buyers of any problems the car might have. I would welcome someone else putting my cars under a microscope. First of all it would give me a chance to talk cars,/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif second if they could point out something good or bad about it would be that much more I'd know about Novas. I never called the guy a liar or said his momma wore combat boots I just was trying to point out a few questions a beginning car entusist might want to ask. I would want the same done for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
55chevy It is Wayne's old car here is a link to a few more pics http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=178010 and if you have any comments about any of my stuff (good or bad) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif I'd love to here them. Mark

[Allen]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok now it is my turn even though the car is not mine and I have no clue who the owner is.

1. Where in the description did it say that the car is as correct as the factory built it and why all the nit picking of individual options?

2. Why all the suspision about the documentation on the car? The owner seemed up front about showing a copy of the build sheet and the GM of Canada paperwork. You could always submit for new GM Canada paperwork before the auction ends if you are that serious right?

3. WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO FIND A REAL L78 DRIVER QUALITY NOVA FOR A RESERVE PRICE OF $16,000?????? HELLO!!!!!!!!

Oh, that is only 3 things not 8 or what ever # you had...........Man what is it with people on this site bashing other peoples cars?????????? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif Nothing bothers me more than when the "Diamond Certification" judges on this site come out and start bashing some guys car that isn't even here to defend himself about it not being correct when the person isn't even claiming it to be or even wanting it to be for that matter.

Rob I have a request. The next person that bashes another guys car should be REQUIRED to have his car/cars put under a microscope for all to ANALize and critique and see how he takes it. Oh and by the way this is just MY humble opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]


Frank and all,
Good morning. The numbered comments on the list that Mark (lowmile) posted about that Nova were mine from another website. That auction caught my eye, and so did the inconsistancies that were observed.

Like many folks on here who take an active interest (and often a microscope) to any potential COPO/Yenko/Motion/etc that surfaces, there are several Nova enthusiasts who do the same - especially when a car advertised as an SS or original BB car shows up. They are limited in availability, and often the owners command larger dollars for them.

For someone seriously wanting one, it's a good idea to make sure they get what they pay for. Like the COPO's, there are more buyers than real cars available. For most folks, money doesn't come easy, so we have to be careful how we spend it. Making sure something is actually what it is represented is part of the process in evaluating the value to the individual. Since I'm enthusiastic about Novas, I like to see how many are what they are advertised to be. If we happen to be talking about a particular car and the questions come up, I'll post my comments.


On the Nova site, the end result of the discussions about cars that appear is that the people who are seriously looking for a real car get an education on various things to investigate when the opportunity arises to check one out.


One of the things that is mentioned here often is teaching people about the attributes to look for to help determine if something is the real deal or not. I read discussions like that all the time about potential Dana or Motion cars that someone is going to investigate. I also read about various Ebay cars that become several pages of discussion material (like that infamous burnished brown '69 Camaro, or the occasional Yenko Deuce).

Anyway, moving on....

Regarding my qualifications for making comments like that, I have none. I just simply have a passion for the 68-72 Novas. No Diamond Certified judges here.

Since I posted the comments, I'll offer up my Nova for scrutiny. Please see the link below and knock yourself out.

http://community.webshots.com/album/37279735mrCcfe

It is just a scrappy ol' driver with a third-rate paint job. It's not mint, not restored (needs to be though!), neesd some work, but it's mine and I like it.

However, feel free to make your comments and don't worry about offending. It's only fair, since I felt free to post my comments about that Ebay Nova.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Well said Mark and Allen, the scrutiny is only to help educate and ensure that someone gets what they pay for - it's not bashing the owner /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sYc]

I will have to agree with Marlin and others on this one. This is not bashing. Why? 1. any time you offer up a car for sale, you open the door for such scrutiny, 2. it appears that what was said about the car is true, as no one has stated otherwise, 3. I do not believe in the theory(s) "buyer beware", let the car "speak for itself", as I would appreciate help identifing problem areas if I were the one getting ready to drop several $$$ on the car, and I think any one else in that situation would fell the same. Better now, then when the new owner comes rolling into Vettefest, or some other show, thinking he has the "best of show", only then finding out "the rest of the story". Talk about getting ugly real fast!

[Charley Lillard]

Lowmile... I appreciated your comments on the Car and saw them as informative. I didn't get the feeling you were trying to bash the car, just making us aware of some very substantial things that were wrong with it. I guess if it were advertised with a Tunnel Ram like it apparently used to have I would almost expect all the stuff wrong that you pointed out. But now it has a appearance of a Stock type Car so those things are not expected and come as a suprise and I'm glad they were pointed out.

[Jeff H]

I would still question the GM of Canada documentation. It doesn't look like the paperwork I have on a car. I thought it looked like one heck of a deal for a real L78 car that looks that good. I would definitely want help from some Nova experts or enthusiasts before bidding on the car.

[Kim_Howie]

I saw a 69 build sheet and under the copo area it said L-78 is the 70 sheet different?? Also the body #s matched the sheet and the trim tag.

[Allen]

[ QUOTE ]
I would still question the GM of Canada documentation. It doesn't look like the paperwork I have on a car. I thought it looked like one heck of a deal for a real L78 car that looks that good. I would definitely want help from some Nova experts or enthusiasts before bidding on the car.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was one of the points I made. The GM paper just doesn't look like others I've seen, nor is it as complete (with tranny information, etc.)



Marlin and Tom,
Thank you for your comments.



To appreciate the full perspective, you need to see the pictures from when this car was listed previously with the tunnel ram, lowered stance, different parts, and more. However, they've been removed from the original ebay auction.

It was also listed from the same dealer, but with a different Ebay ID (bcmusclecars vs. bcmusclecarz). Having seen both auctions, the first impression is that someone couldn't sell it lowered and with a tunnel ram, and decided to slap it together as stock looking as possible to make turning it a little easier.


For the curious people, here is the original auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2435895897&category=61 72


Here is the current auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6172&item=24371742 51

I know some of you also visit the Nova board. Our whole discussion is over there. The bottom line, as was acknowledged previously, is that our intention is primarily educational - not "bashing".

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Kim;
The '70 broadcast sheets did not have the engine rpo code on them like the '69's did. I have seen some '69 sheets where the L78 engine code gets printed in the COPO box, but it's usually a mis aligned form, or something like that. Now, if it's a '68 sheet - that might be different!

[hvychev]

Oh, Ok then I am the a$$hole.

You guys are going to be busy then "helping out all the uneducated buyers" as you call them since you are going to be critiqueing everything from 16K drivers to 150k supercars. It seems like it is always the same guys doing the bashing of the cars. If it makes you feel smart, an expert, or you feel that you are doing the world a service to point out all that is wrong with a 16K driver than have fun!

[Allen]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, Ok then I am the a$$hole.

You guys are going to be busy then "helping out all the uneducated buyers" as you call them since you are going to be critiqueing everything from 16K drivers to 150k supercars. It seems like it is always the same guys doing the bashing of the cars. If it makes you feel smart, an expert, or you feel that you are doing the world a service to point out all that is wrong with a 16K driver than have fun!

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see anyone calling you names - either directly or implied. Save the hostility. Two of us involved in the discussion also offered up our cars for your scrutiny. Have at it.


I agree.... it looks like it would be a fun driver. Personally, I'd pick THIS one first over the red one if I could choose between the two. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=6172&item=243 7589291

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[JoeG]

Good Morning Frank /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif,
I kinda looked at the car the same way you did--a driver with some drivetrain issues to be addressed.Some people pointed out what a correct Nova should/shouldn't have ,that's OK I'm not a Nova expert and it is up for sale and not just being shown as someones car so it's an education and fair game.I still think it was an up-front presentation for what it was,the seller dressed up the outside,which looks well done,but he still left in most of the modifications in his statement, that would alert someone with car knowledge to question them.Some people though ,Frank would look at this car thru (PERFECT) eyes and later on would be sadly dissappointed.Still looks like a car to play with.Anyway go to the lounge and have a bowl of Fruit-Loops-----Joe- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Take it easy there Frank! Nobody called anyone any names, it's just a car, and these discussions are warranted when a seller makes a claim - and presents paperwork to back it up. We've seen false claims made on cars costing a lot less than $16k - which is a lot more money than I've ever spent on any car!

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

He said AS$!!!!

[Charley Lillard]

Frank having a Bad Week ?

[hvychev]

Someone must have pi$$ed in my Wheaties! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Charley and others I am sorry. I guess that I just have an opinion on this subject and shouldn't go off on a tirade about it like others have done on this site recently. I am just passionate about things I strongly believe in like this. Sorry for all the noise.

[Jeff H]

Frank, I understand your point on view on bashing, but in this instance, I don't think it's bashing. It's a case of people questioning the car because there are quite a few things that are incorrect and would lead someone to doubt the authenticity of it. I also agree that for the price, the car would be a great driver regardless of originality. If there weren't so many dishonest people out there trying to pass their cars off for something they aren't, we wouldn't need to question and nitpick as much.

[67BelAir427]

I have been following this particular auction and have seriously considered buying this car. I have read the comments on the Nova Site board as well as here.The issue of "nit picking" as some call it is common to every board that I have ever seen. Someone asked recently why there were so many nasty posts on the NCRS website. The response was that the site was filled with a lot of angry old men who had just spent $70K restoring cars that were only worth $35K. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

On the one hand, I can agree with Frank in that sometimes the criticism seems relentless, and over the top. With due respect to Allen and the members of Steve's Nova site, I have often sat in front of the computer and watched some high quality machinery get dissected and wondered "Do these guys like anything? " /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

However, the same thing happens at car shows. The nicer the car, the more people seem intent on finding flaws. People have pointed out things which were incorrect in my cars and often they have done so for a variety of malicious reasons.But each time they did, I made note of what they pointed out. Sometimes they were wrong, but often they were right and each time helped me to improve my car just a bit more.

I guess the point that I'm making is I hate the nit picking. But I find it very useful.

On this car the Nit Pickers are right.The seller uses a number of bidder identities(just like the Alberta Yenko Cloner), and conducts private auctions which would make shill bidding easier. I have spoken to a past customer who has had some serious problems with his purchase. I have spoken to those who have inspected the car and while it may not have "undercarriage rust or repairs" there are other rust issues that are not mentioned in the ad. Now, you might ask, what do you expect for $16K? A while back I contacted another member of this board about the purchase of his Copo Camaro. He spent a great deal of time telling me specifically about how much rust the car had, and about things that would need attention. That was honest, and straightforward ,and that is what I expect. Not misrepresentation. It speaks volumes about the class and integrity of that member.

E-Bay is becoming a minefield for people trying to find an honest deal.I have a new word to describe what is happening. I call it "Tuttleization" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Allen]

[ QUOTE ]

On the one hand, I can agree with Frank in that sometimes the criticism seems relentless, and over the top. With due respect to Allen and the members of Steve's Nova site, I have often sat in front of the computer and watched some high quality machinery get dissected and wondered "Do these guys like anything? " /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

On this car the Nit Pickers are right.The seller uses a number of bidder identities(just like the Alberta Yenko Cloner), and conducts private auctions which would make shill bidding easier. I have spoken to a past customer who has had some serious problems with his purchase. I have spoken to those who have inspected the car and while it may not have "undercarriage rust or repairs" there are other rust issues that are not mentioned in the ad. Now, you might ask, what do you expect for $16K? A while back I contacted another member of this board about the purchase of his Copo Camaro. He spent a great deal of time telling me specifically about how much rust the car had, and about things that would need attention. That was honest, and straightforward ,and that is what I expect. Not misrepresentation. It speaks volumes about the class and integrity of that member.

E-Bay is becoming a minefield for people trying to find an honest deal.I have a new word to describe what is happening. I call it "Tuttleization" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



[/ QUOTE ]

Marc,
Thanks for your input, and it is nice to hear from someone who has investigated this one further.

I've done a little thinking about the situation and your question of "do these guys like anything?". I realize someone who has followed our posts on Steve's site probably do notice the dissections of various cars that come up. However, what may not be obvious is what starts the commentary.

In some cases, a neat car surfaces and we say "wow, great car!", and that's the end of it. Generally, the long threads are the result of the SELLER's statements, not the car's appearance. I like all the cars.... it's the seller's statements that prompt more attention.

The ol' "it's a real SS / COPO / Yenko / 396 / 454 / LS6 / L34 / L78 / whatever" are what prompts the scrutiny. It happens all the time here and there and everywhere. Because of the rarity of those special cars and the emotions and excitement they generate, it's a natural question to ask "is it real?".

As soon as a supposedly real car pops up, and the first glance results in finding things that don't add up, closer inspections follow and the comments tend to fly.

I like all Novas (and especially 68-72)...... I don't care whether they are six cylinders, or small V-8's, or SS's, or big blocks. Take a 6-cyl. and convert it to a big block for a sweet cruiser.... more power to you! Dress up your plain exterior with SS emblems because you like them...... more power to you! Call it a clone or a street-rod or whatever..... great! Say it's a factory SS or real Yenko when it appears to not be one, and some folks like myself tend to get a bit nit-picky and dig for more details.

In summing up that long-winded statement..... it's not the cars that are the problems.... it's the seller and how they represent them. A seller who appears to be deceitful, or makes inaccurate statements..... they subject themselves to more negative attention.

Look at this one that we are talking about..... two auctions back to back, same seller, different selling names, car was quickly modified from a rod to a stock appearing one, and things look fishy. What do you do or think?

[67BelAir427]

Allen, I agree completely that it is the seller that is the problem and not the car.As the prices escalate the temptation to misrepresent a car increases. One L78 car that I looked at had a build sheet that matched the cowl tag, but the rivets had been drilled and the tag epoxied in place. The next was an L34 car that had great documentation, but NOM and the seller stated that the supposed original motor that came with the deal was "the one that came with the car when he bought it."-he would not clearly say that it was the original motor. Smart about the car when necessary and suddenly brain dead when the important questions were asked. Last L78 car was freshly restored with docs, and seller told me all I had to do was to install the V.I.N. plate from the documented donor car to make it complete(just a felony /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif)The 70 L78 that was for sale here at $26,500 is now at Legendary for $42,000.As the prices go up, the need to know what you are buying is even more important.

I know you like Novas, I think what I was trying to say was that you set the bar high when someone says something like "completely restored SS".That is a good thing. I learn something new every time I read one of these nit picking lists.(even though I wince and am glad its not my car you are discussing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

So the Cranberry Red car met the reserve at $16,000. And in the final minutes the high bid disappeared, it dropped to a non-reserve price of $15,000. The seller ended the auction early. Its almost impossible to retract a bid in the final 12 hours before an auction closes.Maybe its easier if you are retracting a bid on your own auction!

[lowmile]

[ QUOTE ]
In summing up that long-winded statement..... it's not the cars that are the problems.... it's the seller and how they represent them. A seller who appears to be deceitful, or makes inaccurate statements..... they subject themselves to more negative attention.

[/ QUOTE ] /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif Well said Allen

[WILMASBOYL78]

I don't normally participate in the process but this one is too much to pass up. Novas, especially the ones with big motors are of special interest to me and therefore I offer this advice. If you see a car you like find out as much as possible upfront, and if it still sounds good then go and see it. If you are not an expert then take along someone who is. This is the only real way to make an informed buying decision. I don't know how anyone can consider making a serious purchase without examining the goods. Ultimately every car speaks for it self. We may not want to face it but the truth is always there you just have to look closely and use common sense.Don"t get lost in the internet house fo mirrors. Remember, nobody can fake everything on a car there is always a mistake. The "real cars" are sold by "real people". End of story.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Very well said, you guys are right - it's the seller not the car. I like almost every Nova that is discussed, just like Allen states, but nobody likes to be 'taken' on something.

[Steve Shauger]

We should learn and embrace (not bash)those that provide and offer their intimate knowledge of these car, such as restorers, enthusiasts and yes judges. Each of us has much to learn and I for one appreciate the information presented on this board. Some might find it critical, I find it most enlightening.

[Charley Lillard]

Shut up and go back to your Yankees Paceme........ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Steve Shauger]

Charley, that was an awesome game. Talk about a competitive series...the curse continues... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif