1970 gto judge ram air IV

[resto4u]

Today i found a 70 gto judge ram air iv, 4-speed car. This is a two owner car, and second owner has had it for 30 yrs. He said it is 1 of 116 built. It is polar white with red interior. He said he used to drag race the car in the 80"s, and is sitting in a garage on blocks with crager wheels and M&H drag slicks. He also said the car has had a frame off resto years ago. The paint is starting to show age, car is probably #2 condition. He says it has all original matching numbers drivetrain. Also has pop, window sticker, build sheet. What would a car like this be worth? Roger

[MosportGreen66]

Sorry .... I jumped the gun and thought it was a convertable.

-Dan

[BEAUMONTBILL]

Cool sounding car. My research shows that a car like that
should be around 40-45 thousand. Nice ram air 3 cars can be had still for in the 30 range. Board member Pat Joiner has
a real nice car if your looking for a 70 Judge. Just my 2 cents. Bill

[442w30]

They made 397 of these cars. White was a popular color although I haven't seen too many red trimmed cars. They were only available with 3.90 or 4.33 gears. It is a monster and should be able to keep muscle with more cid at bay.

I am unsure of the value, but in excellent condition it's worth more than 40.

[Astock]

RA4,Judge,4sp=115 Sounds Right. The question is, how many '70 RA5's,Judge,4sp?

[442w30]

I am going by memory here, but 397 Judges were RAIV. 72 of those were automatic. The difference is greater than what he is saying. Neither here nor there, but what else is not correct that the owner is saying?

If you're interested in the car, get the documentation from PHS. This will show whether it's a RAIII, 455, or RAIV.

Also, no RAV cars were built from the factory in ANY Poncho.

[Charles]

Was the RA V Pontiac GTO dragstrip tested in S/S magazine a dealer built car? It was a hardtop model. Thanks.

[Astock]

Here's a picture of a 1970 ra5 Judge after sitting 30 years. Just 20 miles from the original owners,Knafel Pontiac.

[mmcporter]

COOL pic...what is going on with the car?

[442w30]

Charles, I do not know what car you're talking about. Is it a blue and white car from Royal Pontiac? That car originally started as a RAIV.

Astock, are you implying the car came that way with the RAV?

[Astock]

W30,
Are you a betting man? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[442w30]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[resto4u]

The judge appeared real and can be documented by the buildsheet and pop. I was working, so did not have lots of time to kill. I will have to call him and see if the car can be bought. My interest in this car is because it was sold new locally in madison,Wi. and i used to mow the dealership owners lawn when i was a kid. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif Roger

[Belair62]

I think it's safe to say if Knafel or Royal wanted a RA V they could get it !

[GTO_DON]

ALL RA V'S WERE DEALER INSTALLED! ASK JIM MATTISON /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[MosportGreen66]

There is one in the latest Hemmings. It is yellow on black and is going for $43K and change.

[Astock]

GTO Don
I think Belair62 knows what he's talking about,and I'm still willing to wager with any takers. I have the vin # I'll fax to Jim M. and we'll let him post the results. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[GTO_DON]

IVE BEEN BUYING AND COLLECTING GTO'S FOR OVER 20+ YEARS AND KNOW ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE COLLECTED GTO'S. IVE HAD ALOT OF JUDGES INCLUDING OVER 10 RAM IV'S AND I WOULD BET THAT CAR YOU TALK ABOUT IS NOT A RA V CAR. LET ME KNOW HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO BET.........DON /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Belair62]

I didn't mean to say whether it was factory or not...just that Royal and Knafel would have definitely been first in line to get the RA V engine.Don I'm sure you would agree those dealers could get whatever they wanted.

[Charley Lillard]

I had this same arguement with a Guy a couple weeks ago . He has been building and racing Pontiacs since the 60's. He said there is one on Display in Detroit with the Window Sticker Etc that has been around forever. He says Jim Mattison will kinow of it... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gifGTO Don, you need to bet him because he was willing to bet the Farm also....

[sixtiesmuscle]

First, my apologies for this non Chevy supercar related thread.You mean ONLY twenty years don't you Don. Just kidding. Heck, you kids need to remember "never say never". I tend to agree with Belair on this one. Although memories get fuzzy, Bill Knafel could have received the one & only RA V from the factory, and, nobody else could have known about it but he and Delorean. He claims he DID. I know he received a car I own with some "special" treatments, including no seam sealer or other weight adding items that "couldn't" be deleted. Acording to Arlen Vanke who wrenched on this car from day one, it arrived from Pontiac with an engine built by Pontiac engineering, with a one off intake manifold. This RA IV ran 12 flat, with an occasional high 11. Not bad for 400 C.I./376 horse, close to two ton car.
My point is, with that kind of performance, Knafel, as far as dealers, was the standard bearer for Pontiac. To think that he could get anything he wanted is reasonable.
I realize that official records may not show a RA V delivered from the factory, but, strange things happened that were "off the books" back then.

[GTO_DON]

HEY MIKE, NEVER APOLOGIZE FOR A RAM IV! ALL THE CHEVY GUYS ARE STARTING TO SEE THE LIGHT. ESPECIALLY ABOUT THE RAIV. NOW IM KIDDING! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif I AGREE THAT WITH PONTIACS,NOTHING IS ETCHED IN STONE. BUT I DO BELIEVE THERE ARE NO FACTORY RA V GTO'S IN 1970. THEY DEVELOPED THE 303 CUBIC INCH RA V FOR THE TRANS AM. IN 69 THE 400 RA V WOULDN'T STAY TOGETHER. CASE IN POINT ,LOOK AT THE CRYSTAL TURQUIOSE 69 BOBCAT CAR, IT WAS A RAIV AND THEY PUT A V IN IT AND IT BLEW UP LEFT AND RIGHT. THE TIN INDIAN YOU HAVE IS A IV CAR,RIGHT? AND BESWICKS CAR IS A IV ALSO. ANYWAY ITS GOOD TALKING WITH YOU MIKE,NOW LETS START TALKING YENKO'S AGAIN! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif BY THE WAY ITS BEEN 25 YEARS /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Astock]

MikeG,
It's listed on the PHS invoice second from the bottom as Spec Perf $280. And the last item on the invoice is just an amount of $52 without discription, just the code. Keep in mind, this is in addition to RA 3 Judge package $300(ballpark) and RA 4 $300 (ballpark). I'm more than happy to take Don's money. And you are right, Mike. Knafle was able to get some really odd ball stuff. Bill Knafle and his son spent a lot of time and effort trying to locate this car. If I would have known that, I would have sold them the car.

[DaJudge]

I have to agree with GTODON. The RA V was first made in 69 for the Trans Am to compete in the Trans Am racing series where as you Chevy guys know the CID limit was 305.The 400 CID version was to see street use in the GTO but was stopped by management. Many sources including Paul Zazarine and Tom DeMauro have stated that no Ram Air V engines where factory installed. Ram Air V's were counter motors and if any found there way between the fenderwells they were dealer installed. The most famous RA V GTO is the 1969 Royal Bobcat GTO which was Crystal Turquois with white stripes. Could Knaefel and Royal get these motors absulutely yes, did they sell a few, more then likely. But just like Motion cars without the proper paperwork to back up the work, talk is cheap. The spec perf option that you list as a $280 option I would slide the decimal over to the left because for about $2.80 you could step up to 4:33 gears in a GTO. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[JoeG]

This was a good segment------------- web page (http://www.myclassiccar.com/MCCTV/2001Season/016111/judge.html)

[DaJudge]

Thanks !!! Enough said /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

RAIV King

[sixtiesmuscle]

For sure. If it's on My Classic Car, It MUST be accurate.

[JoeC]

I bought some parts and in the pile was some interesting Pontiac parts. There are two old RAM AIR IV decals and 455 HO decals along with a crazy looking FI unit. They came from a "old drag racer" I was told. The decals look old.
see attch

[JoeC]

close up of decals

[skierkaj]

I'm not sure I like the crazy bubbly letters. Kind of looks disco-ish!

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
For sure. If it's on My Classic Car, It MUST be accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[DaJudge]

Oh I am sorry that a television story that I did not even know about backed up what I was discussing. Thank God that the PHS documents exist for Pontiac Enthusiasts and that Jim Mattison cannot be bought off. Because if he did not exist there would be a lot of Ram Air V GTO's around bringing high dollars like some of the Super Cars out there. I can't wait for the fire sale of supposed big block Chevy's and Super cars when the Chevy docs are available.

I bet a lot of people are lobbying against these documents to be released to the public. I bet it will be like the old Heinz Ketchup commericials. Anticipation , it's making me wait; I hope I don't lose my shirt on a fake!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

All I know is that my RA IV Judge is the real deal all original paperwork , all numbers match , all original sheet metal and did I forget to mention, purchased from the original owner. Cars with paperwork, true stories and a documented history are what bring the bucks for any make, leave the mythology to the Greeks.

This is Zeus signing off!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[DaJudge]

Cool find thos e 455 HO decals are used on 71 and 72 GTO's with the 455 HO option as well as 71 Judges. The RA IV decals can be used on 69 to 70 GTO's, Trans Ams nver had any decals installed on the shaker units or the forward scoops on the 69 -70 model years. What kind of intake is that and is it set up for fuel injection ?

[442w30]

Astock, still a bettin' man? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Astock]

Someone posted "talk is cheap." How cheap? $5000 cheap? Or would you like to go more?

I will send my end to Charlie, Belair, or Sixtiesmuscle whenever. Who's on?

[Astock]

Hey Zeus,
Don't sign off yet.You've been doing a pretty good job of giving the Pontiac community a black eye with your embarrassing posts.I think it's time for you to step up to the plate.
Just think,you'll get your chance to show me where to move the decimal point for the g80 430 gears.

[woodnnn]

none,the R A 5 was never a production gto.this was only added by dealers or owners.the heads and intake could be bought over the counter.but never came factory.royal pontiac built a few RA5 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif cars but there again after market.

[Astock]

Wood
I'm confused by your post.Are you putting up your money or just doing more talking. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[Fhakya]

Wow, cool thread (I live for this sh*t)! I'm going to agree w/ Belair62 and say YES...these dealers (Knafel/Royal) could get anything they wanted as far as Pontiac's were concerned. But, I'm going to embelish on his statement and say that they could get access to the limited amount of RA-V "crate" engines to perform the conversion if they wanted to. JoeG brought an excellent point to the table. When I 1st saw that segment I nearly jumped up off my soap-box screaming "They never installed a RA-V from the FACTORY". They went on to explain what's in the text of the web page and I could go back to drinking my Yoo-hoo with my previous beliefs intact. The only RA-5 dealer conversion that I know of (personally) is the blue (turquoise)/white Royal 69 car. That's not to say that other conversions werent't built by dealers 'after the assy. line' but I'd help back 442W30 w/ $500 on the 5K wager that 'AStock's car is not a production line car. BTW, I'm one of 'kids' on this board so I could be wrong...but I'll back this belief w/ cash.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
When I was 12 I won a $100 bet w/ my step father that they did indeed build a FI 283/283 57 Chevy...I'm ready for more!

-Mark Holman
PS Anyone wanna buy a factory built LS-7 Chevelle?

[DaJudge]

ASTOCK here is an excerpt from the Pontiac GTO Restoration Guide. Page 381. " Finally, the Ram Air IV Super Duty: Research indicates that approximately seventy of these engines may have been released for public consumption in 1970. The Ram Air IV Super Duty consisted of a Ram Air V bottom end and Ram Air IV heads, intake manifold, and carburetion. No Ram Air V engines were released from the factory for public consumption, although it was possible to order all the necessary Ram Air V components over the counter. Occassionally a Ram AIr V will turn up, but it was not built on the assembly line for sale in a 1970 GTO. Evidence also indicates the installation of a few RA IV SD engines in 1970 Trans Ams. "

Read my previous posts if any dealer would have access to a RA V engine it would be Knafel or Royal. It was dealer installed and many people will back that up.

The Ram Air V was a counter motor. Unless someone has a specified code on a legitimate build sheet or PHS that states RA V then I will stand by my statments.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[JoeC]

I am not up on Pontiac history but you can look at the way Chevy and Olds handled the special factory hot rods. The factory wanted to race but was restricted by upper management rules. They needed to find ways to sneak out factory built cars to meet NHRA rules. Chevy made deals with Fred Gibb and Yenko to process the factory built cars that would meet the NHRA ruled 50 car minimum requirement. Olds built 455 cu in cars that they were not supposed to build and sent them to Hurst to process them. I would guess that Pontiac would have done something with Royal but if they built the 50 cars to race in NHRA then it would be documented. I would be surprised if Pontiac did not build some special cars for in house testing but it is hard to say if any cars escaped the factory. I remember reading an article about a prototype 69 Trans Am with a special de stroked engine and the car was allowed to be road tested by a magazine but don't know what happened to it after that.

DaJudge-- the intake is some type of drag racing fuel injection system made by ALGON with some home made parts to adapt the air filters

[Jeff H]

Personally, I doubt they ever built a factory RA V, but Chevrolet has proven to us to never say never. I'd like to see some definitive paperwork.

[Astock]

To Jim M.
I'd like to apologies for any phone calls that you may be receiving regarding this thread and Garys car.
J.Y.

[442w30]

Ordinarily, I'd start off by posting, "I'm pretty much a lurker here. I know the Clarys from the PS races and appreciate the time and effort they've put into this site. I can also appreciate the intellectual and anthropological manner in which the COPOs are handled, which is often missed on other sites."

However . . .

[ QUOTE ]
Someone posted "talk is cheap." How cheap? $5000 cheap? Or would you like to go more?

I will send my end to Charlie, Belair, or Sixtiesmuscle whenever. Who's on?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even have $5000 in liquid assets. But your attitude reeks; while yours is still flapping in the wind, my pants are still zipped. Thanks for the grin. Be sure to let me know when Jim gives you the bad news. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I doubt they ever built a factory RA V, but Chevrolet has proven to us to never say never. I'd like to see some definitive paperwork.

[/ QUOTE ]

As with all makes, of course.

I know of a L78 4-door. Didn't make one? What if it was a cop car?

Fact is that the L78 was built for "normal" cars, so there's always that possibility. The RAV was never available installed in a car, so the possibility for that is less.

[Jim Mattison]

Guys,

Pontiac "never" built a Ram Air V GTO at the factory!!!

Jim Mattison
Pontiac Historic Services

[Charley Lillard]

Thank you Jim.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[MotownMadman]

Jim,
Amazing how you managed to put up this post while we were discussing this on the phone, must have a hands free head set eh? So now that the question has been laid to rest I assume all bets are off? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[GTO_DON]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gifTHERE YOU HAVE IT!! I GUESS I WONT BE GETTING THAT IVORY BACK SCRATCHER AFTERALL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif ON THAT NOTE, THERES A GUY IN JERSEY WHO SAYS HE HAS A 69 YENKO CHEVELLE WITH AN L88 IN IT. WHAT DO YOU THINK? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[sixtiesmuscle]

Thanks Jim. Now who was going to send me 5 grand to hold??

[Belair62]

No No...send it to me...I need to put a 4 speed in my COPOC Chevelle.

[JoeG]

Belloc,
Never heard of a COPOC Chevelle--is it a Terrestrial design???

[Belair62]

It's a very rare model Joe.

[MotownMadman]

You guys.......Geez, got to tell you everything....
COPO has always been the abrieviation for COPOC, which stands for Central Office Production Order Car! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Some people think the "C" on the end stands for Camaro, Chevelle, or Corvette, but that would not work as a Nova would have become a "Cova", and certainly Marlin would have put a stop to that! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gifTHERE YOU HAVE IT!! I GUESS I WONT BE GETTING THAT IVORY BACK SCRATCHER AFTERALL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif ON THAT NOTE, THERES A GUY IN JERSEY WHO SAYS HE HAS A 69 YENKO CHEVELLE WITH AN L88 IN IT. WHAT DO YOU THINK? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to find your caps lock button and release it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[GTO_DON]

MY COMPUTER IS MISSING THAT KEY /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Born30YrsLate]

then tape the 'shift' button down..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Jim

Where is your proof this car was not assembled in engineering, there is only evidence to support it was. Your opinion is mere speculation, not fact. All supporting paper documentation on the car points to it's authenticity, not against it. This car is the most important un-acknowledged piece of Pontiac History. As with Astock, I have touched this car with my hands and seen it with my eyes. It's not just another myth that some one stuck a crate motor in. If the correct research is done on this vehicle, the truth of when and where the RAV motor came to be in the engine cradle can be verified. Since we have all been told that it never happened from the factory; told for years by all the "experts", does that make it a fact? Would proving the car is real be too much pride to swallow? My opinion does not make the car real either, and if it's proven not to be authentic I will apologize. The nature of this car should be proven, not talked about.

Sincerely, Steve Hoog

[JoeG]

April 1973---

[JoeG]

article piece---

[JoeG]

rest of article--

[JoeG]

Don't get me wrong it would be very /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif if one was assembled in the factory---I hope your search proves everyone wrong--JoeG

[GTO_DON]

Here we go again with this magical gto.show us the phs or a build sheet and lets put it to rest! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif i would also like to have all the date codes off the block,heads,intake ,carb,and distributor and lets not forget the exhaust manifolds! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Don

I do hope that the owner will oblige the board and public in general with your request, I know he is watching this with interest.

In the mean time and article from Smoke Signal in 99 after an interview with one of the Knafel's.

[Steve_Hoog]

And turn the page.

[JoeC]

The "MEMO" car is interesting. I think Chevy used it also. There was a COPO 68 4-door Impala 396 cop car at Carlisle with gauge dash and 140 speedo. Upper right corner of trim tag was stamped "MEMO"

[Steve_Hoog]

The owner has allowed me to post the PHS, sweet........

First a couple of things: If you will review Pete McCarthy's words of wisdom concerning SD cars in his book, I believe you will find he points out they were listed as "memo" and "spec equip". My copy is at work, so I can't verify that %100.

Second: Bill Knafel has stated that all cars delivered to him back door from The Hobby Shop (Pontiac Engineering/Racing), were delivered with headers. This doesn't have any bearing on proof, but the owner wanted me to mention it. Don't let the pricing on the PHS throw you off in your conclusion.

Now the VIN has been sprayed out at the owners request. He has much more on the car, hopefully he will respond soon.

Steve

[GTO_DON]

Steve, im glad you posted the build sheet. this is not the first time ive seen memo on build sheets. i keep copys of all phs docs of all gto's and judges i come across and i have a few phs docs with memo on it on non ram air cars. But i do understand its an interesting fact! special equip can also mean headers in the trunk. I think if the car was a true ra v car, there would not be raiv on the phs,check this with jim. even on copo cars the build sheet would not list both engines. And if they did ever put a ra v in a gto, [which would be like a ZL1] you would think the price of it on the phs would be more like 3000.00 like the ZL1.If you want i'll try to post the phs docs i got..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[MotownMadman]

I had a long conversation with Jim on the phone concerning this thread last night, he indicated to me that he was aware of this very car in Tulsa Ok., and that it was not assembled at the factory with the V engine. I see today from the one article that the car is in Tulsa(or was) so I am certain he knows which car this is. I am not saying one way or the other on this, only what I was told. Jim is very busy at the moment or more input may have already been posted, but in my opinion if the owner of the company called Pontiac Historical Services makes a statement concerning a vintage Pontiac, and I might add a very adamant statement, I would have to go with what he knows. Jim is a walking history book on these cars, I cant see a opinion coming from him in A public forum concerning any car unless he was absolutly certain. Pontiac is not the only division who had "Memo" on their build sheets, that could mean about anything in the way of special equip. These rarities are explained by the experts in the field, Jim being that person for Pontiac, even what was done in engineering is no secret to the experts in the field. Example; the one and only 68 Z ragtop, yes it was built into a Z on the assembly line, however, the cross ram and rear disc was done in engineering. This is knowledge that Jim and his friends and coworkers shared with all the cars owners, including the present. he would know if the car was assembled in engineering, which even if it was that is not a factory built assembly line car, it really would make it no different then a dealer assembled car, as with the one in question.
Thanks,
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Norm reynolds]

Motown amen /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Special equip could mean a lot of deferent things on the PHS it shows ram IV
I would think a Ram air v run a little more than $ 105.00
This debate will go on forever I have heard the same thing about factory built Buick stage II. Pontiac RAM V and Buick stage II was never Build at the factory I could see a dealer Order special equip and the factory put ram v equip in the trunk for the dealer to install But not at $105.00 Jim is the expert and has spent a lot of time getting the facts and has nothing to gain to say that this car is not a factory ram v

[GTO_DON]

Well said! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[Jeff H]

Kind of like a factory built LS7 car. Each division has its top of the line, all out racing setup that never became a production option. I think we'd like to see proof of each of these being built, but it would have to be very definitive proof. IMO, "spec perf" could mean anything, but with the RAIV engine designation I can't see it referring to a different engine upgrade.

[sixtiesmuscle]

My Knafel "Tin Indian" RA IV Judge was shipped eight days before the car in question. The dealer invoice shows exactly the same items except for the turbo/hydro & console. Wouldn't the early, November 15, ship date exclude the possibility of a RA V anyway? When was that engine announced?

[Steve_Hoog]

I work GM dealership, back door deals still go on to this very day. Last year as a perk to our dealership (and a couple of others around the country) GM released several engines VIA backdoor including one of the all so awesome LT5 Corvette motors made in Stillwater Oklahoma, every single nut bolt and wire ready to run drop in out of the crate. There was NO "NON" NO official paper work that went through invoicing, this is approximately a $10,000 dollar engine. Why is it so hard to believe that a RAV engine couldn't have been installed back in 1970 with minimal notation on a PHS? Bill Knafel's explanation for the "memo" price being low was because the RAIV motor was never really put in the car, so the amount of "memo" was on top of the RAIV billing to somewhat compensate for the overall price tag. Out of the ordinary billings occur to this day in the GM arena, they call them policy adjustments. I submit to the boards viewers this was one of those policy adjustments. SD cars are accepted as factory produced cars, correct? If this car was built under similar circumstances, can it be accepted as a factory built car? To me, when they roll off the transport from GM they are a factory car. Bill Knafel has made an official statement this is the case with this Judge, that it came from engineering with this motor in it off the transport. Does anyone in here know who Bill is? And will back up his word?

Literally everyone on this board has mentioned some story they are aware of that is out of the ordinary. A great quote some one made on a previous page, "never say never".

[Steve_Hoog]

I am fascinated with the blue and white Tin Indian, I love that car and have posted several pics on our dealership web sight of that car. Bill has stated that several of the RAV cars came to his dealership, do you also have the "memo" on your invoice? Can you post it? The RAV over the counter sales started in 69, so I don't think the 8 day difference would be a factor.

Again I love this blue and white car!!!
Some old race stuff if your interested. (http://www.empgmc.com/race.htm)

[Charley Lillard]

"Bill Knafel has made an official statement this is the case with this Judge, that it came from engineering with this motor in it off the transport." I would like to believe that this stuff happened very much on the Sly and would venture a Guess it would be done under the Radar enough so People like Jim Mattison and others would not notice. How it gets proven I don't know but I kinda agree with never say never.

[442w30]

Where's Astock? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Now that things have turned a bit friendlier . . . could the car have been delivered with a RAV? Possibly. But, if so, chances are the car was created with an RPO engine and then the RAV substituted. But I don't know why that would be. After all, if the RAV was available over the counter, wouldn't Knafel be able to do it themselves?

For now, factory documentation is the only proof. Till there is some other proof, I won't believe it. I don't understand why some are believing the speculation when if the same thing was said about a COPO, proof would be expected.

Also, there are some in the Pontiac community who don't always lend creedence to what Jim Wangers or the Knafels have to say. There's some good insight, but it is not always gospel.

[Astock]

When I heard Jim M's post, I was actually relieved knowing that I had given the car away. Then I thought back to what the Knafels had told me, how they were 100% positive that the car was delivered to them with a RA V engine. I also recall how excited I heard they were about this car surfacing. Why would they have been so excited about a mere RA IV car. How many RA IV cars do you think went through their dealership along with all of the other significant cars? What would they possibly have to gain by making this claim?

[MotownMadman]

I will not say that it is not possible that the V engine was installed at enginneering, that could mean anything from at the research and development department to the proving grounds. Charlies post lends credence to this. Did the car travel down the assembly line with the V engine? Not likely. The build sheet shows the IV, which is therefore what would have been installed as it traveled down the line. It appears possibly both sides may be correct here, it was NOT a factory installed engine, but it MAY have been delivered to the dealer with it installed. A similar case exists in the Ford collector car community, the 1970 Boss 302 Mustang with AC. After much debate and research by many it seems the AC was installed by Ford enginneering. People are on both sides of the fence as to if the car is a factory build or not, with an engineering altered or assembled car I would have to say no, for if the cars that come from the engineering department become factory built that would mean every one off prototype built by every automaker would then have to be considered a "Factory Build", which is just not the case. In the case the engine was installed by Pontiac engineering that does indeed make it a unique car, but in the abcense of documentation to support where and when and by whom it was installed it lives as a IV car with a V engine installed along the way by someone. Aside from all of that it is still a very neat car, many of the current Supercars were dealer assembled and stand at the top of the hobby today. This becomes a case of wording and interpretation, the words "Original", "Factory", "#s Matching", all have to be used in the correct context with this car. If everyone decides they dont want it due to the debates I would be more then happy to give it a home.
Thanks,
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[John Glasgo]

This is an interesting post,maybe i can add to it.I am friends with ASTOCK,and Bill Knafel,both are straight up guys.I too have seen this car,it is very interesting,and i wished i would have bought it.Anyways,Knafel did get some very special stuff,and alot of it is still around. In 64 my father ordered an aluminum hood for his 64 gto,it took a while,but it did come in,how many other dealors could have gotton this? Around 1989 i went to look at a distributor machine that was in the newspaper for sale,laying next to the machine on a shelf,was a complete Ram Air 5 top end,heads,intake,factory numbered Holley carb,RA 5 Dist(TI)With the oe red cap,camshaft,and FACTORY GTO EXHAUST MANIFOLDS!The guy that owned this stuff was a farmer,who bought the parts of a guy that owned a towing company,he had all the parts on o 66 Bonneville,except the exhaust manifolds,which would not fit the B-body chassis,but they were on a car at some point!The guy that owned the bonne died,and nobody knew where he got the parts from,could they have been off this Judge? Who knows.I did buy the parts,and built a 69 gto around them,actually showed it at POCI,and the GTO Nats.So could this Judge have been built in engineering with a 5 motor,maybe,these parts came from somewhere,and until 1990 had been in Akron the whole time!

[Steve_Hoog]

Don, I'd like to see one of your invoices with the "memo" on it, and if you can give a little story behind it. Just for comparison.

[DaJudge]

After speaking with Jim on Friday in regards to other vehicles I asked him about the car. He knows it and as you can see by his post he states clearly as he told me that the car was not delivered from the factory with a Ram Air V. The car is no slouch it is a RAM IV Judge and even if Knafel put the V in it at the dealership that is very cool. One very important fact is that the Ram Air V engine was never certified for federal emissions standards, even back then prodcution engines had to pass federal emission standards before they could be released to production.

Why would GM risk fines from the feds to release one car even to a dealer like Knafel Pontiac? They may have been high profile back in the day and very significant in Pontiac racing history and they sold a lot of Pontiacs but not enough to cover a huge fine and risk more stringent standards placed upon them in future engine programs and certifcations for federal government compliance. Even if it was back doored (which I don't believe personally) from engineering don't you think they would want to make sure the car was a race only vehicle?

The RA V is not like the engine in a COPO Camaro which was certified and released to the public.

Who cares what pans out here, it is a Real RA IV car which is very rare by itself when compared to some high dollar Mopars and others it's low production numbers make it more rare as we all see by the high dollars they are commanding the rest of hobby thinks so too. Look at the current edition of Mopar Collectors guide they ask some high profile Mopar restorers the state of the hobby and the guy at Aloha Restorations is doing a RA III 69 TA convertible and once completed he projects the price of this vehicle to be 400K. And they tell you keep an eye out for those RA IV cars.

This thread has been fun but like every vehicle out there whether it be a COPO, Yenko, Nickey, Motion, Bobcat and rare production cars, a paper trail showing real codes and history are what makes a car with a questionable story fact not fiction.

John that RA V 69 GTO you did is very nice, It had the V top end only right? With all the right goodies up top. the gentleman that owns it now was going to trade me that car for a 70 Z28 4 speed car that had 2,800 original documented miles which he purchased. You guys do some nice work.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[sixtiesmuscle]

Here is the dealer invoice on the Knafel "Tin Indian" Judge. Take it for what it's worth. Just as an aside, I for one, like dealer [or Hurst] converted cars as much, or more than, factory built cars.

[Steve_Hoog]

Holly cow, that is very close to the same. Did you by any chance check to see if the factory exhaust hanger bolt holes on the frame were untapped?

[sixtiesmuscle]

Nope. What would that mean?

[MotownMadman]

I would think that meant the car came equipped with or prepared for headers and no exhaust.
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Knafel said the car I'm talking about (car X) came with headers installed and no exhaust. The current owner said he can find no bolt tap marks in the frame holes on car X, which backs up Knafel's story. Those hangers used a 3/8 self tapping thread bolt that left noticable markings in the holes. If your car is like this other one, and no one altered the holes you could verify it.

I would be a little surprised though. Seems like the Knafel's would have certainly said something about your car being delivered under the same circumstances, especially since it's such a popular car.

I think this deserves a phone call to the Knafel's.

[sixtiesmuscle]

I'll ask Micky Hale to check, but, I believe it started out as just a run of the mill RA IV. According to Arlen Vanke, who wrenched on the car during its racing career, it was the white car used in the promo pictures with the pretty girl, by a lake. Knafel was able to "get a deal" on it, and, it was shipped to them after a stop in engineering. I don't know this to be fact. Just reporting what Vanke told me, and, he seems [to ME] to have a pretty good grasp on what went on in the shop back then.

[Steve_Hoog]

I find that very interesting indeed. very!!!

[442w30]

If you click here, (http://www.gmphotostore.com/source/Detail.aspx?L1=pontiac&L2=12140&imageId=2389614&ac tion=&ss=) you'll see the pic I think he's talking about. It ain't white.

[sixtiesmuscle]

Yeah, but, he got the pretty girl part right. Maybe there's another, don't know.

[micky69396]

The 5/16 holes where the hangars go are tapped so there was a exhaust on the car.

[Steve_Hoog]

How about a nekkie girl on a white Judge? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Could the "memo" on both invoices just mean they got a detour in Engineering, and the Engineering log book is where the real answers are?

[micky69396]

Memo might be for a sealer delete. There was not one ounce of sealer anywhere on this car. Also had a very light weight padding in the seats, no backing on the carpet either. Just some of the not norm stuff.

[copo9566aa]

This is my favorite of all Poncho the 1970 Goat Judge
and Orbit Orange /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Micky, you and the owner of car X and 70 Tin Indian need to have a conference call and compare notes.

[Jeff H]

Looking at both sheets, it looks like the "SPEC EQUIP" is code "N15". Is there any definition of what these codes are in Pontiac documentation?

[Steve_Hoog]

Sixtie Muscle... the owner of car X would like to talk to you via email, but says your email returns undeliverable. If you could email me, or call me I can pass along a way for you two to talk. My number.. 918-260-0151

[Astock]

If someone has Arlene's current phone number,email or PM and I'll see if he's on line.

[GTO_DON]

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[mrmuscle]

don, what kind of "cool" gto's do you have?

[55chevy]

Ok.. Here is my story.. I know this doesn't involve the car in question, but maybe a reader out there knows the car I'm about to talk about. Back in 1990 I was a senior in HS and owned a 71 Chevelle. Long story short, crashed the Chevelle (rolled it 3 times).. few months later financed and bought a 1984 Trans Am (the blk/gold 5spd H.O. one.. Oh..baby... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif) Anyway, 2 months after that I drove by a 1970 GTO Judge on a piss ant car lot in Bedford, PA every day for about 2 weeks.. Then one day I got the bright Idea to stop in and look at it. The car was a light brown/tan color.. had some previous body work done on the quarters.. original Fawn color interior. buckets. 4 spd. Ram Air IV hood and designation.. square piece of sheet metal screwed over the hole covering the missing hood tach. Needed paint.. Interior wasn't bad. Looked mostly original all over.. Missing Ram Air underhood stuff (had a chrome 14" open element). Anyway, I asked to take it for a test drive. And we did....... I drove it, and Jesus H Christ that thing was the STRONGEST thing I have EVER driven or even been in to this day... (other than the Motion Cars I got to ride in at SCR6)... I hope someone out there owns this car or knows where it is today.. But here's how it went.. When I drove it, it had a REAL heavy spring on the accelerator pump and made the pedal feel HEAVY.. So you had to give it some force to open it up.. On the ride out of the dealer I grannyed it.. 1...2...3...4.. Freaking chirped EVERY gear up to 60mph. (part throttle) The guy along for the ride didn't know the rear end ratio... So I drove down the road about a 1-1/2 mi and turned around in the parking lot at Burger King at the Bedford Turnpike exit. (I'm sure some of you know where that's at, CamaroJoe? SK? well.. used to be a BK, it's a Parking Lot now). Anyway. I pulled out on the road in 1st to head back and I thought to myself I'm going to see ALL this thing's got... So I MASHED it to the floor and the thing DIED.. I flooded it just like that.. So I coasted off to the side and held it to the floor cranking the engine till it sputtered back to life.. I gave it a few sec. then pulled out easy and short shifted clear to 4th.. Went under the turnpike tunnel and saw I had a good 1/2 mile of open road.. Going about 40mph I banged it up to 3rd and gave it EVERYTHING it had.. From 40-45mph going from 4th to 3rd that damn GTO stood straight up, I swear the front end came up a foot... I put down 40ft of rubber on the road and the guy in the passenger seat got his neck snapped as did I.. I stayed in it and hit 4th at about 80mph (not much later) and it layed down another 5-10ft of black marks. All I could do was look at the guy and say , Damn.. thing has some power huh? All he did was shake his head yeah.. lol... I could have bought this car for $2,000 at the time and BEGGED and BEGGED my parents to let me.. But of course I had JUST bought the Trans Am.. So I had to let the GTO be a memory.. I still rub that in to them to this day.. Anyway, in talking with the seller, he told me some other people had looked at it including a well known GTO guy and that guy told him it had some rare experimental Heads on it.. That's about all I remember.. other than when I hit 3rd with the Hurst shifter my knuckles contacted the dashboard. Anyone else know this car? Would love to see it again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[Chevy454]

I knew if we talked Ponchos long enough that the Glasgo boys would find us! Nice to see ya stop by John!

[skierkaj]

That's one awesome story you have there. Makes me wish that I'd grown up in your generation (I'm just a freshmen in college). I'm doing the best that I can, with the money I have (or don't have!), and have a weak-kneed 305 sbc in my '76 camaro. I was going for the looks, and realized after I was done, that I should've went for performance first. Well, what can I do now? Just wait till after college and pray I get a really, really good paying job to finance my musclecar "habit."

[camarojoe]

Ed, i know exactly where you are talking about, but unfortunately I've never seen or heard of the car you're talking about...maybe its still out there... lots of old cars in that neck of the woods... i know Thomas Chevrolet in Bedford PA sold a few high perf Camaros, including a JL8 Crossram Z that's still in the area.

[DaJudge]

Here's the top secret Ram Air V in action, you should see the tunnel port on this sucker!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Belair62]

Speeeeeed!

[55chevy]

[ QUOTE ]
Ed, i know exactly where you are talking about, but unfortunately I've never seen or heard of the car you're talking about...maybe its still out there... lots of old cars in that neck of the woods... i know Thomas Chevrolet in Bedford PA sold a few high perf Camaros, including a JL8 Crossram Z that's still in the area.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Thomas has been around for quite some time now. The dealer this Judge was at was one of the little fly by night dealers that came and went. They were located just up the road from Thomas on the other side of the Entrance to the Old Bedford Village in that little lot there that used to be a gas station back in the day. I don't know what's there now if anything. But that dealer lasted about 6 months so theres no tracing the GTO from there. Hopefully someone will read this and remember that car. It was in the Spring of 1990, if my memory is still serving me. Hopefully that Judge is in someones garage and not the woods.. It was the real deal and almost all there, and ran strong as hell. I'm sure it's still got to be alive somewhere unless some dumbass bought it back then and beat the snot out of it. It was only $2,000 so anyone could've picked it up. I think it went out of the area because after it sold I never saw it again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[55chevy]

[ QUOTE ]
Makes me wish that I'd grown up in your generation (I'm just a freshmen in college).

[/ QUOTE ] Man, you're making me feel Old.. My Generation? I'm only 31.. At what age do you reach "the hill"? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Just for grins, what do you think these cars could be valued at if they did indeed come with the RAV from engineering? Do you think they would be in the same league as the 69 all aluminum Vette, that 1 of 2 is known to exist?

[Mr70]

Those 2 Corvettes exist.One is in Kevin S. collection out west,the other in Florida I believe.
I would think it would be comparable to these cars.

[Steve_Hoog]

My bad, I thought the one if Florida was only known about.

[Pantera]

I think there must have been more than 2 built. I remember seeing one in person down at 4th & Lewis at a bodyshop, back when it was new and still had a window sticker on it. It was a blue cpe. Never did get to talk to the owner as no one was around. (Boy was that ever tempting) and when I went back the next day it was gone. I later went to work for that same bodyshop but it is long gone now. Sure wish I had taken a pic of it.

[Jeff H]

I think there has been discussion about the number of ZL1 Corvettes built and I thought I had heard 7 instead of the 2 that are always talked about. Do you remember roughly what the sticker price was on the Blue Vette you saw?

[Steve_Hoog]

Upon reviewing Pete McCarthy and John Angeles Pontiac Musclecar Performance book, I find it to be layered with SD build sheets including the "memo". In this book, numerous references to cars going to engineering all of which are referred to as factory cars. Numerous examples of "memo" and "sepcial equipment", and no body sealer as Mike indicated with the Tin Indian. Along with many other variations, the only differences between these SD's cars and two 70's we are now talking about seems to be no one has written a book about them.

I also find it interesting that there is no mention of any Knafel race cars, or Knafel racing invovlement. Does anyone know what that is all about? Pete or John have a beef with Bill?

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
Along with many other variations, the only differences between these SD's cars and two 70's we are now talking about seems to be no one has written a book about them

[/ QUOTE ] SD was an entire package to include body parts ,aluminum,engine,rear end,exhaust....produced to win races in both drag racing and Grand National racing...the heavy duty parts produced by Pontiac back then was amazing...it was MUCH more than just an engine....I don't think they ever drilled holes in a GTO frame !!!That book is one of the best to read about the heyday of Pontiac performance.Hard to draw a line between the SD and RA V IMO.

[Steve_Hoog]

I don't think anyone would argue against the SD's being bad to the bone race cars, and very much factory supported. I would love to have one some day, pending winning the lotto.

[skierkaj]

In response to the 1 of 2 corvettes; What about the Pontiac Banshee (only 2 made)? I had a chance to see one at the Iola Car Show in Iola, WI. That thing was soooooooo cool. Almost exactly like the Vette, but with a little different front, and a specially raised center hood. The hood looked like it had a partial shark fin coming out of it right in the center. Anyone else see this car in person?

[sixtiesmuscle]

I don't mean to disagree with my good friend Belair, but, some clarification is warrented.The Super Duty cars didn't all have aluminum body parts, and there were a relatively large number made. Sure, the "Swiss Cheese" cars [13 I think?] were very special, but, there were lots of 62 & 63 Super Dutys built for street use. I found the quote about a RA IV SD motor very interesting because that is what the Tin Indian has in it, a RAV block, etc., and RAIV Heads. So, maybe there is a correlation between the early SDs and the later "SD's". Both of the RA IV cars I have were built by Pontiac with all the weight saving deletions possible. They were built specifically for racing, and that's all they did.

[Steve_Hoog]

And my point was not to compare the Judges to the SD's, rather the lack of acceptance of the Judges to the SD's. Yes the SD's have more notes on the build sheets, but I firmly believe the right research may turn up documentation on the Judges.

PS add to my dream car list one Black Widow.

[Pantera]

Not exactly. I think it was like 2 0r 3 grand more than you could buy a vette for. I was not able to buy a new car back then. I had just paid $8,500 for my first house (880 sf) and this car cost almost as much at it did. Wish I had paid more attention back then. You have to remember that the DX SCCA cars were in Tulsa quite a bit. They were neat to go look at too. Tulsa was a hot bed of muscle car acitivity back then.

[MotownMadman]

Sixties M,
With you owning some rare vintage Pontiac examples you have probably studied the Poncho's more then most here, what do you think about this particular car in question, out the factory door new with the IV or V engine? How could it have been installed and distributed off GM property when the engine wasnt cleared under Federal emission standards? Would not the build sheet refer to the V engine with more then just "Memo"? Without actual documentation as to the engine being installed arent we all chasing our tail in a round room having no way to prove or disprove the build? This has turned into a very long yet informative thread, without factual evidence can this really be determined? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Thanks,
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[GTO_DON]

Isnt it funny that pontiac kept all the records of all the VINS of their super duty cars, but have NO RECORD of any RA V"S MMMMMMMMMMM /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Let it go! Its getting old.

[mrmuscle]

don, why dont you reply to the question about what cool gto's you have and if i remember right, you stated you had invoices with memo and special equipment on them and steved asked you to post them and you didnt. actually i think most people are enjoying this and it does raise alot of questions. why wouldnt they have put a ra 5 in a car did they build the engine and leave it on a stand only??? i hardly think so. remember these were delivered to him to drag race and maybe werent intended to sell to the public. how many experimental cars are out in the public and werent supposed to ever be sold. anyone who was around back in the 60's and early 70's and followed drag racing knew all about knafel's lethal pontiacs and knew that pontiac motor divisions engineering dept were behind him on anything he wanted. why is it that nobody wants mr knafel to have any acknowledgment on his accomplishments and working relationship with pontiac???? i guess i would suggest to you don that if you dont like it go to another chat topic and leave this one.

[olredalert]

Mr.Muscle,

-----You appear to have 6 posts here and virtually no info about yourself either.At least Don has told us his name.I dont think that Im speaking out of turn here when I say that both you and Don are welcomed here by all of us.Im not throwing stones at you or Don,but maybe you should take this private if you have some sort of beef with him!.......Bill S

[mrmuscle]

i have no beef with him at all. it just seems like he continues to try to get this discussion stopped and i know by the number of hits on this that people are enjoying it.

[sixtiesmuscle]

M&M, I don't pretend to know more than anyone about Pontiacs. I just like them. I respect everyone's opinion on this RA V question, and, I have the utmost respect for Jim M., and, his records. Being old enough [by a long shot] to have been around back then, I still maintain the "never say never" stance. Now, I don't believe a car with a RA V would have been built "on the line", and delivered via normal procedures. Could a car have been sent to a special area, and, a "special" engine or equipment installed? I wouldn't rule it out. If it DID happen, I know there is a dispute over whether this would constitute a "conversion" car, or, a car delivered from the factory.
As far as regulations, if the car was not being sold to the public, but, was a special promo pool car or something, wouldn't that avoid compliance issues?
I do agree that we won't solve this puzzle in this discussion, but, it's been fun trying.

[mrmuscle]

i agree with you sixtiesmuscle. i never thought anyone would think this was about a car delivered down the line with a ra 5, but instead a car pulled and sent to engineering and the ra 4 pulled and a ra 5 stuck in it. just like steved said about pete mccartheys book showing this very fact happening to the sd tempests and other 62 and 63 cars with sd engines. you can see the pics of the tempest cars with some of them still wearing their 326 badges. i apologize to don if he thought i was trying to make an issue with him. i would just like to see more of the phs sheets with the special equipment memos on them. maybe that would help in finding a common item among them. so far we have only seen two cars and both of them were referred to by bill knafel back around 5 years ago and so far the evidence is documenting exactly what mr knafel said. i also dont understand why mr knafel doesnt get anymore credibility than he does. anyone know why?

[Jeff H]

Does this possible RA V car have a partial VIN stamped into the block from the factory? What engine code is on the block? It seems unlikely that any GM paperwork will reveal if it is a RA V factory conversion. It would be cool if it was a real RA V car, but no reason to get upset over the discussion.

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff car X does not have any codes what so ever stamped on the engine, I'm not sure about the Tin Indian. The motor is partially disassembled in the bay, after some sort of failure during a pass. Best I recall, that is what I was told about it blowing. I have seen the motor myself, it has the passenger head pulled along with the header which are in the trunk.

It is my belief that the "memo" is an invoicing note reflecting or noting being pulled from the aisle and taken to engineering. I feel will all the SD coverage, some one could probably verify that.

I think Bill Knafel's statement on the car to be factual.

I think there was or still is an engineering log at GM, that may hold the pin point proof. Obtaining that information is my goal, and I am working on it.

I thought with the attention this board was drawing on the car, some one might step up to the plate and help in the search. Trying to get this information from GM is NOT easy. The emissions concern several have brought up I might understand why, but you would have to think a statute of limitations would have expired by now. GM does hold some of it's documentation from the public, it's been hard to decide if that is the case or we just haven't found a person that will put out the extra effort.

The reason I am so adamant about this.... I do believe the car is real, and I would like to correct the myth. Also, now I believe the Tin Indian is a significant counter part thanks to this board disscussion.

Because of this car I have become acquainted with some people that I hope to see at the Nats in Joplin next summer, and wouldn't that be something if both of the cars could be there too?

[Jeff H]

Regarding the emissions issue, if you search here on the site you will find a discussion about GM paperwork where they were trying to get the L72 certified in the Camaro for 68 to possibly be a COPO. I would imagine Pontiac would need to do the same thing. If GM certified the ZL1 for the Camaro and Corvette, I would think they tried to do it with the RA V as well. But proving a particular engine was put into a car at the factory, it would need documentation and accompanying codes or VIN. Even the dealer transplant cars(Motion, etc.) had the engines marked and documented. Like it was said earlier, it will be just as hard to prove it is a RA V as it will be to prove it isn't.

[JoeC]

Have the trim tags been thoroughly analyzed? Sometimes codes will emerge by comparing a library of trim tags.

[Steve_Hoog]

Alright lets do this.......... imagine yourself at the theatre for a movie, Fast n Furious type soundtrack and cinemaphotography....

Opens with a some loud music, thumping, and a blurry shot from the camera of the past, say 1973, maybe even in gray shades, from the rear a GTO running down the track, as the motor blows before the finish line the camera spins off to his garage as he tears down the motor, then shows him coughing and implies his death, now jump ahead almost 30 years, the widow decides to sell the car and you see Astock in 1999 on his cell phone describing the car to a potential buyer, flash ahead a couple of years to the current owner allowing me to be one of the few to ever see the car in recent time, then a shot of me later at my desk doing research and fighting with people over a car they say didn't exist as the camera the fades back in time to the early sixties when it all began, and the real focus of the movie begans as it tells the story of the efforts of all our heros who dreamed, engineered, and built what is our passion today, the muscle car, the story shows the rise to glory, and then the collapse of an era in the early 70's, and the last thing it shows is a behind closed doors assembly line removal of a few cars, a few GTO's, a last work of art from a team that knows the end is here, then you see this Judge being delivered to Knafel Pontiac on a dark dusty desolate day, the last shot is of the owner driving away from Knafel in the GTO just a short time before he dies.........

Would be a hell of a movie

[ssl78]

I was talking to a guy a couple of months ago who used to race SD Catalina's and probably raced one of the first pontiac funny cars back then. He said they had built 2 SD Grand Prix's one for him and one for his friend who was the general manager of a Pontiac dealer (He told me which one but I dont remember). He was saying they werent available back then but anything was possible if you had the right connections. He also said he still has all the original paperwork from when the car was new.

[Belair62]

Sixties I didn't say all the cars were aluminum...just that the SD was a package of stuff..to include aluminum too..I found it interesting that there was no difference in price whether you wanted aluminum or steel sheet metal...Steved put the RA V on a par with SD cars and I disagree with that..if indeed a couple came out the back door they would be in a whole different league...And if anyone could get them out the back door it would be Royal or Knafel ! BTW I was only in 2nd grade when the 63 SD came out.

[Belair62]

SS L78....was that Larry S ? Sixties and I owned that funny car ! I talked to him one time but never heard from him again ! His old partner is still in the north suburbs...I have a nice pic but file is too big

[ssl78]

Yes thats who I am talking about Larry. He is back in town and I run into him every once in a while. I told him you guys owned his funny car but he would really like to know if his super Duty Catalina is still around.

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff
I talked to the owner earlier about the block codes, and didn't relay that right. There is no VIN stamped. He promptly corrected me, and watch the following.... sent some pics.

[Steve_Hoog]

The owner has taken the motor out of the car since I saw it last, here is a pic of the front of the block where wanted me to show the broach marks. Along with the engine code.

[Steve_Hoog]

This code is cast in the side of the block, and may be exclusive to RAV blocks but not sure.

[Steve_Hoog]

This is the casting number in the intake.

[Steve_Hoog]

These are the heads and aluminum flywheel that were on the vehicle when he tore it down a year ago, he's not sure if it was GM. I just called him and sent him back out to his shop to find out if there is a GM number on it, seems like I've heard about such flywheels but not sure myself.

[GTO_DON]

MR MUSCLE I DONT HAVE TO SHARE WHAT CARS I HAVE WITH ANYBODY! LIKE THE OTHER POST SAID, ATLEAST PEOPLE KNOW WHO I AM! YOU DONT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT YOURSELF! WHY DONT YOU TELL ME WHAT CARS YOU HAVE? IM NOT TRYING TO BE SMART,AND I HAVE THE UPMOST RESPECT FOR ALOT OF THE MEMBERS ON THIS SIGHT. [GOD KNOWS ID LOVE TO OWN ONE OF THE SUPERCARS SOME OF YOU HAVE,BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE,WITH THE EXCEPTION OF JIM MATTISON,NOBODY ON THIS SIGHT HAS OWNED MORE GTO'S OR KNOWS MORE ABOUT THESE CARS! IVE JUNKED MORE JUDGES THAN MOST PEOPLE HAVE SEEN. IVE MADE IT MY LIFE WITH THESE CARS. I HAVE A PASSION FOR THEM. IVE HAD MY SHARE OF OTHER HIGH END CARS TOO! LIKE A 65 Z16,LS-6,L78'S 427 GALAXIES AND HEMI'S AND JUST SOLD A SD CATALINA. I CAN BE A GOOD FRIEND HERE AND DONT MIND SHARING ANY KNOWLEDGE WITH ANYBODY. I AGREE WITH MIKE THAT NEVER SAY NEVER BUT ITS TIME TO BE STRAIGHT. I DONT BELIEVE THAT CAR IS A REAL RA V CAR! IF IS IS LETS BRING IT OUT AND DOCUMENT IT! AND NOT WITH A BLURRY PIC LIKE THAT ONE. LOOKS LIKE HE TOOK IT WITHOUT PERMISSION. FOR THE RECORD I WISH THE CAR WAS REAL! BUT SOMEHOW IM THINKING THAT MONEY IS AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS ISSUE. MAYBE SOMEBODY WANTS TO CASH IN! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gifI WILL POST THE INVOICE WITH MEMO ON IT, AND THE CAR IS NOT FROM KNAFLE! IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY THERES DIFFERENT NUMBERS NEXT TO MEMO. IF SOMEBODY EVER DECODES WHAT MEMO MEANS I THINK ALOT OF YOU WILL BE SURPRISED. HELP ME OUT WITH THIS JIM! EVERBODY IS A EXPERT!!!

[DaJudge]

Sixties the Tin Indian is a 70 GTO. RA IV SD engines were supposedly installed in 70 Trans Ams, but no car has ever surfaced and no documeNtation exists to prove that these cars are real. Pontiac was going to put these cars into production but THE ENGINES WERE NEVER FEDERALLY CERTIFIED FOR EMISSIONS STANDARDS. I would love for one of these cars to exist because they would bring big dollars and bring the value of my RA IV car up wih it. Show me some real certified documentation or shut up!!!!!!!!. Did the WY get stamped by the franklin mint ??????

[Steve_Hoog]

Don

I'm not really sure what your going on about, but I'll leave that between you and Mr. Muscle please.

As for the cash in comment, I don't own the car, what would it benefit me in monetary value to prove this? I acknowledged what this means to me in a previous post, there is nothing in it about money. The actual owner is just like me in repect to ownership of personal cars, they will be with us as long as we are alive. I still own the very first GTO I bought in 79, and he still owns his first car. Along with others on both our parts, this Judge is no exception to him. His kids may sell it after he's dead, but he won't. And the car couldn't have a better home, he will take the best of care with it. And more importantly.... I somewhat put my friendship at risk bringing the car to a public light, he would have assumed no one ever known about.

And what you getting on to Astock about his pic for? From what I understand he was just scouting the car for purchase, not setting up for a professional photo shoot.

[DaJudge]

Steved the WY is interesting but the RA V had a different casting number then any 400 blocks made . What is it? And can we all see a picture of it? And finally show me the VIN number in the block because if it was factory that cars VIN will be in the block if not kiss my ass. At least an engineering number should be on the block. I have been around these cars since I was 17 and have owned and researched many Pontiacs. My 71 Judge won a gold at Nationals and was the first 71 Judge made and was tagged for Detriot and Atlantic City New Jersey autoshows and was the first Judge made for 71, the /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif build sheet backs up my mouth. I have owned many GTO's and Judges and I think I know what I am talking about.

[hvychev]

This thread rules!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Dajudge

I certainly hope you will be at Joplin next year, it will be an immense pleasure to meet you in person.

The owner of the car is already in his pj's and didn't feel like he needed to fill your request for another pic, I don't blame him. He did say to tell you the number is 481708, and tomrorrow he might go flip the block for a pic. But he thinks your a little over the edge.

If you will go back and read the previous post, you will see that I clearly stated there is no VIN number on the block. And no I will not kiss your butt.

You and Don both need to remember, this is not about what I have said. This is about what Bill Knafel has said. I don't know Bill personally, but I bet he has more integrity than anyone elses opinion in this matter.

Bragging about a car is not my style, racing is. Bring on your first 71 Judge, lets see if you can back it up at the track!!!

[GTO_DON]

i think bill knafle tends to elaborate the truth of what he remembers. EVERYBODY LOVES A /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gifGOOD STORY!

[DaJudge]

I am sorry to see that an old car dealer has more respect and integrity than a person like Jim Mattison who actually worked for GM and has stated that a RA V car did not come from the factory, please review the past 100 posts to verify this quote. I never talked about drag racing my car but it did run a 13.2 at ATCO raceway and my RA IV car has run 12.98's with slicks. I think that's pretty respectible for stock cars with some tuning. Can't wait to meet you in Joplin, maybe we can even have a beer at Roadhouse Rubys or Guitars and Cadillacs, they are great bars and I would love to buy you a round. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Steved... I'd be interested in that Car that nobody seems to believe... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif Does he wanna sell it since all it seems to do is cause arguements ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[MotownMadman]

Wow! And I thought I knew something about debate! A lot of historical people and info is being rattled from the trees on this one!
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Born30YrsLate]

I will be starting to take bets on how long this thread will go!...forum leaders aren't allowed to make bets because they can stop a thread at any time (if I'm wrong feel free to bet as well)...let the betting begin.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[resto4u]

I never thought i could ask a simple question, and have it turn into a novel. Some good info though...... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif Roger

[sixtiesmuscle]

[ QUOTE ]
Sixties the Tin Indian is a 70 GTO. RA IV SD engines were supposedly installed in 70 Trans Ams, but no car has ever surfaced and no documeNtation exists to prove that these cars are real. Pontiac was going to put these cars into production but THE ENGINES WERE NEVER FEDERALLY CERTIFIED FOR EMISSIONS STANDARDS. I would love for one of these cars to exist because they would bring big dollars and bring the value of my RA IV car up wih it. Show me some real certified documentation or shut up!!!!!!!!. Did the WY get stamped by the franklin mint ??????

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you telling ME to shut up??? I think you have me confused with one of the other posters. I didn't post the WY code picture, and, never said anything other than that my car is a RA IV car with an engine that has a RA V block. Apology will be accepted.

[Steve_Hoog]

Normally I don't administer ass whoopins to follow Pontiac brethren, but I will make exception in this case. Mine is a street car, but you better bring more ponies if your going to take my challenge.

[Charles]

John, the information about the two SD Grand Prix models is only part of the story. One 1962 SD Grand Prix sat in a back yard; basically ignored for 15 years. It was still there when the buyer went back to take a serious look at the sad car sitting in the mud. The 421 engine had blown up and had been replaced with a 389 engine. The old SD headers had been installed on the 389; this plus a number of other unique features raised more questions about what sort of Grand Prix model this car was. After dragging the car home there was much research to be done. Talking to knowledgeable people about this Grand Prix could not confirm what it was. Many were quick to say what it couldn't be; a SD Grand Prix! To get the answer about this car the owner contacted Pontiac. Fred Simmonds of PMD after days of research was able to confirm that the car was a real SD Grand Prix and one of just 16 units built. Six years after locating this rare Pontiac, the restored SD Grand Prix was shown at a PMD headquarters show. People were most impressed with the quality of the restoration and the rarity of this Pontiac. It won the "People's Choice Award". Following this success the Grand Prix was invited to the Meadowbrook show. A great result for some lost Pontiac history, that the public was allowed to see once again.

[mrmuscle]

dajudge, i was shocked to see you refer to mr knafel as an "old car dealer" that is so disrespectful to a man whose cars set many world records and was the most lethal pontiac drag racing team in history. you know that you nor i nor jim mattison ever worked in pontiacs engineering "hobby shop" we dont know what all really happened in there. mr knafel had been talking about these two judges before either one of them surfaced and had even wrote about them a few years later in the smoke signals (pontiac oakland club internationals club magazine for the chevy guys who might not know what it is) back in around 1999. do you think that they built this engine and never put it in a car to test it? mr knafel said the cars were sent to him to drag race. who knows maybe it was not intended to have them sold. but just like many experiemental cars that are in private collectors hands, it does happen. NEVER SAY NEVER usually you have to go back and eat your words. why are a few people so afraid to admit this could (and more likely than not) have happened?

[olredalert]

Charles,

------I would dearly love to see that SD Grand Prix.It sounds like a peice of artwork.What part of the country is it located in?
------My own 64 GP is,I feel nearly as rare as it is a true HO tri-power 421 4spd.Although there were around 3300 HO big body Pontiacs built in 64 there appears to be only 25 to 30 HO tri-powers installed in Grand Prixs.Ive owned the car since 1988 and am still trying to research this..............Bill S

[Belair62]

Hey Sixties...shut up will ya ! Olered there was a 62 SD GP in Arizona a while back...it's probably restored by now...Allan G. was the owner...he used to live in my neck of the woods...pretty sure it was a steel car.The Pete McCarthy book mentioned somewhere in this thread is a great Pontiac HP book....I used to look in on some of the Pontiac boards (Ames) until it got really nasty..some of those guys got pretty foul about certain engine builders etc...I think they had to close down the board or change it to try and keep it civil. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[olredalert]

-----Thanks Belair.Years ago I was at a match race at Milan with Red Alert.I was supposed to be racing Porterfeild but he broke.A black 62 GP showed up for the show with a gold inset and Royal emblems as well as 421 emblems on it.I never got a chance to get close to the car that day,or talk to the owner.I sure wish I had.Other Pontiac people from the greater Detroit area have since mentioned the car in passing as a SD Grand Prix.Unfortunatly,I have never seen the car again........Bill S

[micky69396]

Belair, The 62 in question from Chicago is the one is AZ. Allen moved a few years ago. Car has been restored for at least 8 years or so now by Scott Tiemann. Its all steel.

[sixtiesmuscle]

I'm callin' you out B.A. I'm eatin' my Wheaties, and, I'll see you at Vettefest. Better bring your posse.

[Mr70]

Mike
Bob won't be at VetteFest...But his Car will. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

I got a Vette that goes in a straight line or road coarse, I want some of this action too. We eat spinach down here.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Jeff H]

Steve, I have to admit that the "WY" stamping looks pretty bad if it was done by the factory. The casting # is for a 1970 400 block. But I'm not an expert on stampings so I'll keep an open mind. The fact that there is no VIN on the block will definitely hurt the chances of ever proving it was installed in the car originally. What's the casting date on the block?

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

I've seen one of the over the counter blocks in real life, it had the big numbers above where the code would be but no code. A very interesting block with all the extra webbing.

Will see if he will shoot the casting number, I'm still very interested to see if the flywheel has a GM number on it.

Steve

[Jeff H]

I did find a couple of pictures of some Pontiac engine code stampings on the web and they looked similar in the fact that the "W" was stamped lighter and the second letter was stamped heavier. But they seem to line up with each other.

[Steve_Hoog]

If the "WY" were hand stamped in engineering, that would explain the lack of alignment. I don't know anything about how and why codes were stamped on engines, so I couldn't address this.

[tjs44]

guys I new here and have to jump in on the V post.I deal in early SD and RA V stuff.I have a couple SD clone cars,one of which was in the Nov.PHR mag.Have pictures of my early car in Petes book,been around the pontiac thing since 62.I have a 69 T/A with the only RA V alu block motor running in a car,it was on PHR TV.Facts,the factory built 100 400 RA V crate motors,they came without exhaust manifolds.They made 303 motors also but were very rare.The most rare part for ANY RAV project was factory exhaust.There is a pic in Petes book of a set on the Purely PMD GTO,said to be the only set made.I have a set for the T/A.The motor was never approved for smog so the factory would have NEVER installed one as the fine was great.There were lots of dealer installed engines.FYI,Tom

[mrmuscle]

it still amazes me that a few of you are hanging up on the smog certification. these cars were sent to knafel to race. i again ask someone to answer the question do you think they built an engine like the ra 5 and never installed it in a car to test it???? surely nobody is that closed minded.

[tjs44]

im sure they were put in test cars but never sent to a dealer with the engine,EVEN for racing.The fine was just too big.

[Steve_Hoog]

Yeah, and just how big was the fine?

Your view is speculation, would you not agree?

[tjs44]

yes,as YOURS!

[Jeff Murphy]

FYI This is now the 12th most viewed and 5th most replied to post in the history of the board!

Keep it going guys you've already blown by the infamous Douglass*Yenko discussion in terms of posts and are right on its heels for views. Still a long way to go to beat the 288 posts and 9210 views in for the 70 Yenko Deuce discussion in Supercars & Musclecars Wanted thread. Or the 9380 views Jim Mattison's research has garnered in COPO - U.S.A.

It's a long way off, but as you guys keep saying "never say never". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Some fact and some speculation, and I have tried to be clear between the two. Along with the help of the owner, I have attached more files than anyone to help the discussion. And aside from the one 1973 magazine article, no one has posted documentation supporting it didn't happen.

I am still curious if you know what the fines would have been, probably more important some type of sanctions? Or does anyone out there have a clue?

[skierkaj]

Whether or not anyone is "right" is their own opinion. In my opinion, If there were any RA V cars, They had to be put into a street car at some point, and I think most people would agree that you can't really find the overall performance of an engine without it being in the car. The car limits the engine (steering, cornering, etc.). Who's to say that the engines were taken out after testing? If GM could get away with putting the engine in a couple of the Judges, Firebirds etc., why wouldn't they? It's all about the consumer, not the Govt. Just exactly how big was the fine for a non-smog-legal car? Maybe it would've been worth it. Think of the price of those cars! I'm sure no RA V would've been cheap, and GM could've paid off the Govt. for their "fine" with the profit from the car. And who's to say that there wasn't some Govt. conspiracy where they let GM put the RA V in a couple of cars? What would the Govt. care if there were a few cars that weren't exactly legal? Pay them enough money and they'll keep their trap shut.

Just trying to push some buttons; add more fuel to the fire! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[mrmuscle]

i think the fact that they were delivered to knafel to race would probably clear them to the point that they could kiss some rear and play it off as a misunderstanding between the dealer and engineering dept. probably can someones job that wasnt all that important and make it look like they really came down on this misbehavior.

again, i dont think most people realize how important that knafel pontiac was to pontiac racing back then. anyone around drag racing knew about the tin indian cars and always knew they were not any normal race car.

hey sixtiesmuscle, how did you come about that tin indian of yours? did you know anything about this controversy then? what explanation if any was ever given about the memo special equipment?

[Born30YrsLate]

Ask Joel Rosen about fines and how "easy" it is for the gov't to let cars slide.....the gov't is the one that shut him down in the early/mid 70's...I'm sure that pontiac would have had no problems paying the fines, but some the people making the decision to let these cars through may have valued their job as well...companies really don't like it when you cost them money - they hire you to make money for them....just another person's point of view.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[tjs44]

Just talked to Pete about the V cars,he had a conversation a couple weeks ago with Jim Wangers and he said there were NO RA V cars shipped from the factory.The test car was a RAIV car in Fla.They shipped a complete RAV engine with exhaust manifolds with the car,with instructions to pull the engine after the test and return it to the factory which it was.There are many pontiac "GURUs" that have been telling SO many lies for SO long they now believe them a fact.Bill,Milt and Jess are a few of those guys.Tom

[Steve_Hoog]

Did you ask Pete why he has nothing in his book concerning Knafel?

And exactly what is it that removes him from "GURU" status?

[sixtiesmuscle]

I received a lead from a broker, and, bought the car from Arlen Vanke. I got it in the condition you can see on Micky Hale's website. Arlen rebuilt the motor for me, and, I never checked the casting numbers until I had it delivered to Micky's shop. I assumed it was the engine that was in it when it raced because that's what Arlen told me. The block is a RA V, and, it has RA IV heads. That's all I know, and, I don't really care where or when the engine was originally installed. If these cars were Nickeys, Yenkos, or Baldwin Motion cars, the fact that they were converted for racing at the leading hi po dealership would be a GOOD thing. As evidence of this, if I'm not mistaken, the highest value paid for a Yenko Camaro , at the time at least, was for Brian's yellow car which had the original 427 removed, and, a race motor installed at Yenko.

[sixtiesmuscle]

Regarding the lack of Knafel info in Pete's book, there was never any love lost between Knafel & Wangers. I think that's putting it politically correct. Pete & Wangers are buddies. Pretty simple really. The rivalry between Royal/Wangers and Knafel was intense, and, never really subsided. Any other opinions on this one?

Hey, where's DaJudge?? Hopefully you've reread my posts. I'm ready for that apology now.

[supergonzo]

There NEVER were any RAV motors installed from Pontiac into ANY cars sold at a dealership period.

They were racing "parts" motors that you had to complete yourself. There was one "test" car which originally had a RAIV in it. The RAV would have needed the bigger cubic inches of 1970 (455+) to be even close to streetable.
Too much head flow. There are some who are still racing these motors today into the 9's.

[DaJudge]

Mike, My point regarding shutting up was meant to be that if I had a Camaro that was represented as a Baldwin Motion Car and did not have the proper paperwork to document the vehicle people would doubt it's legitimacy no matter who verbally verified the car. Now on to the Ram Air V GTO I have seen other GTO's with the same memo and they were not RA V cars. As I have stated before the car is no slouch it's a RA IV car that is rare. I believe 1 of 804 in which there were 325 RA IV Judge hardtop 4 speeds. If Knafel Pontiac put the RA V in the car at the dealership that is way cool as well. That's as close to a Motion or Nickey car that us Pontiac guys have. My only point is that unless there is a buildsheet or definitive documentation from Pontiac not just word of mouth then no one can really say that the engine was installed at the factory. Another point is that the RA V block casting number is totally different from any 400 motor. Mike will a few drinks on me suffice as an apology? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Steved: my cars are not race cars I never said they were faster then yours and I will not thrash numbers matching vehicles just to prove anything to you. They are show cars that have intact drivelines from when they were new why would I want to risk ruining them. They were run once for fun before they were restored and that's it.

The one thing we all have in common is a love for these old cars and when a debate like this draws all this attention from various people all over the coutry, it makes me feel good that this hobby and the passion for these cars will live on long after we are all gone.

I just find it very interesting that Pontiac documented all the VIN's of the early Super Duty cars that Harrop, Beswick and others took delivery of, raced and won National events with. They even had every VIN for 70 TA's with RA IV's in them broken down by time built, 4 speed vs. auto, as well as blue vs. white cars and the plant in which they were produced. Why then not these two cars?

These are two great cars no matter what the case is.

Mike /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[olredalert]

------TJS44s statement about the car getting shipped with a seperate RAV engine w/exaust manifolds is probably the closest thing we will ever have to the truth regarding this entire discussion!When you think about it,why would Pontiac risk a fine of whatever amount and deliver a non-compliant car when they could deliver the motor seperatly and avoid that whole scenario.This makes a bunch of sense to me,however the old "anything could happen"adage does have to be kept in mind when dealing with GM............Bill S

[sixtiesmuscle]

Mike, Now, that was a reasonable explanation, and, it's nice to see this back in a civil tone. However, what you're missing is that I NEVER STATED THAT MY CAR WAS A RA V FROM THE FACTORY! Therefor, I don't have to put up or "shut up", as far as documenting anything but what the car IS. I do enough things I'm guilty of, I sure don't need to be accused of things I don't do.

BTW I don't drink, so, can you just send me 20 bucks. Mike

[LVCamaro]

Get 'em, Mike G! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

SS

[skierkaj]

I'm sorry, but I just have to say something to DaJudge. Cars are meant to be driven, not trailered, no matter how precious, pristine or rare they are. If you don't drive the car, you're defeating the whole point of owning it. If I had a car somewhat like any of yours, I'd make a point of driving it. If the car was only one of one made, you'd find me driving it. Cars can be replaced and relived, awesome lifetime experiences cannot. I don't know how the rest of you feel, but that's my opinion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[Jeff H]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but I just have to say something to DaJudge. Cars are meant to be driven, not trailered, no matter how precious, pristine or rare they are. If you don't drive the car, you're defeating the whole point of owning it. If I had a car somewhat like any of yours, I'd make a point of driving it. If the car was only one of one made, you'd find me driving it. Cars can be replaced and relived, awesome lifetime experiences cannot. I don't know how the rest of you feel, but that's my opinion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you would have a different point of view if you had $90K plus and 4+ years into a restoration of a numbers matching car. Yeah, insurance will cover most problems that might happen, but I don't think you'd want to go through the whole thing all over again. The way people drive nowadays, it gets harder and harder to drive any nice vehicle in traffic. You should see what goes on in NJ on the roads. Too many people on cell phones driving oversize SUV's and extended cab pickups that don't pay attention. Then you have the idiot ricer's that think they can drive like the Fast and Furious.

[skierkaj]

I'm sorry, but IMO, you can't worry about all the other drivers. You can't worry about what COULD happen. Like I said before, NO MATTER HOW VALUABLE, I'D STILL DRIVE IT! Sorry to shout, but that's the truth. I wouldn't care if I had over $90K worth into it, I'd still drive the snot out of it. If I put that much money into the car, it's worth being driven. Ok, there would be one or two restrictions, like no driving in the salty Wis. winters, and try not to drive on too many gravel roads, but THAT'S IT! You want to drive it and have fun, but still keep it alive.

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
The way people drive nowadays, it gets harder and harder to drive any nice vehicle in traffic.

[/ QUOTE ]

The traffic is usually pretty light where we drive. It's odd, though...it's always us, and only 1 other car!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Skier..I think you might feel differently if you put the amount of effort into a car that some of these have had. I have driven frame off pristine cars and put enough miles on them to where they are no longer Pristine and it is something that gives you very mixed emotions. Alot of what these cars are about is preserving what they were like when new and maybe there will still be some good examples left for the next Generations to see. We will be gone long before these Cars will so really we are just Caretakers for Future Generations. You can drive the Crap out of a Clone and have the same feeling. This is coming from a Guy that drives the Crap out of everything. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[MotownMadman]

I rode my Bike to Trailer Week........
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[micky69396]

Keep driving these cars eventually they need redone and thats called job security for me,,lol /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

A whole bunch more jaw flappin has gone on in here while I was at Church.

What I appreciate, people like Mike who can have a simple disscussion with an open mind. He wasn't trying to ram Jim Wanger of Pete down my thoat, the guy was actually trying to help. The truth is all I'm after, and I mean the exact truth. This does not mean Pete, Jim's, or Joe Bob's opinion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Jim M worked for Chevy, Jim W left an advertising agency in 69 that contracted with Pontiac, and Pete worked for a phone company? Is that right? So neither of these guys were around Pontiac when the controversial car was actually built, interesting. And neither of them actually ever worked for Pontiac, wow!!!! Is that a shocker if my information is correct.

Last Winter Jim W was in Tulsa, and made a trip to Gary's house. Gary is the owner of the Judge in question. Gary probably has a dozen 69 TA's, with 4 in is top shelf garage. 2=RA, 1=RAIV, 1=RAV. The hood was up on the RAV, and Gary asked Jim "what do you think of that motor?" and Jim replied "well, what is it?" Ok, something is wrong with that. By the way; this TA has cast iron manifolds, so make the count two if anyone was counting those.

Where are the engineering logs?

Dajudge... your car is to good for a grudge match on the track, no problem. Change your mind or get another car, bring it on.

[Steve_Hoog]

AMEN Charley /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[mrmuscle]

i had assumed all along that the car (one of them) in question belonged to gary. as for driving rare cars, i was at a all pontiac drag and car show a few years back and watched gary get booed by a bunch of "enthusiasts" for smoking his tires all the way down the track in a true documented frame off totally restored 69 trans am convertible. it was one of the coolest things i have ever seen. (anyone get a video of that). i know a guy who knows him and he said he had a few friends over and they took the trans am convertible out and took turns doing burnoffs and seeing who could get the longest second gear rubber in it. i am surprised he let jim wangers come over. i have heard he has a select few friends that ever get to see any of his cars.

[Steve_Hoog]

HAHA you don't know how true that is... Gary also has a dozen or so 71 Judges, one of them is a documented 4 speed convertable. I've seen him burning the **** out of those tires and even cutting a donut.

[Born30YrsLate]

There is a time and a place for everything - the time and the place to drive the crap out of the supercars was back when they had a reputation to establish...and now that they have their reputation they should be allowed to enjoy life in the "retirement lane"...an occasional drag pass or "carbon run" doesn't seem to hurt much as would a nice drive out on the highway. The reason there aren't as many supercars around today is because they had the snot driven out of them back in the day. My feeling is you don't have to live history to appreciate it...a little taste goes a long way....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[mrmuscle]

i agree somewhat, but i think a person should be able to do what they want with their own cars. if they want to store them forever, run the crap out of them or trailer queen them to death it is their choice and nobody should give them a hard time about it.

[Jeff H]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree somewhat, but i think a person should be able to do what they want with their own cars. if they want to store them forever, run the crap out of them or trailer queen them to death it is their choice and nobody should give them a hard time about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You nailed it! There are people that do all of the above and we each have our own feelings, but that shouldn't affect anyone else. I can appreciate bone stock original cars, modified restored cars, pro-touring cars, etc.

[Steve_Hoog]

Mr Muscle

I just got off the phone with Gary, and he's a little embarrassed that your giving away his driving habits.

He also said that he checked the car today for body sealer and carpet insulation. He said it has both.

[skierkaj]

I understand where all you guys are coming from. I know I may not have as much experience as some others out there, but I do know that restoring a vintage vehicle is a lot of work. I did everything MYSELF on my camaro, minus the final coat of paint and clearcoat. I agree with you Charley, that you do have mixed emotions about beating on your car (i.e. stone chips from some gravel and sealcoat on my quarters and bottom of front fenders), but once again, IMO, cars are meant to be driven and shown off. It gives you a good feeling when you pull into a crowded football game parking lot, and everyone stares at you as you rumble past. IMO, if the car is too good to be driven, you don't deserve to own it. I hope this hasn't offended anyone.

In response to Born30YrsLate, who says those glory days are over? No car should have to suffer the feats of "retirement lane," unless you're talking about a Geo. Cars don't have the satisfaction of a retirement; fellow wrencheads forbid it. True Wrencheads want the same performance as "back in the day," and aren't afraid to use the car. A car's only true retirement comes in the form of a crusher.

[mrmuscle]

i agree with that and you are mostly correct about the retirement when it hits the crusher. even then it is giving itself up so we can all still have canned tuna. lol

[Belair62]

Gentlemen....TJS44 ..Tom S.. has probably forgotten more about Pontiacs than most of us even know...Tom...great to hear you chime in...you helped me out a bit on that old 63 Kimberly Blue SD car a while back...so how long have you been racing Pontiacs Tom ?

[Belair62]

Motown...you rode your bike to Trailer Week but....was your hair perfect !!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif and did you bring your wingtips ?

[tjs44]

thanks,1962.I know enough to get by.I just know that a lot of factory "mule"car were clone cars.My 63 lemans that Tyree drove in 64-65,he still swears was a mule.I know Arlin built the factory"mlue RunningBear 63 tempest.I know that my cars are clones as I built tem.My 69 T/a is a numbers matching RAIII car I put the V in.I drive all my cars and if anyone is ever in the SoCal area they are welcome to see and drive any of them.Tom

[supcarbob]

I have been watching this thread with great interest.I don't post much but I keep track of whats going on with this site.I really like the COPO cars and I go to the SCR reunions and never miss a Vettefest, but I am an 'eat,sleep,drink' Pontiac man. We have owned a Pontiac exclusive dealership for over 35 years. I have been a GTO fan since the begining owning Ram Air 3 ,4 and 5 along with H.O.'s and Super Duty's.
I know Jim Mattison , Jim Wangers and Milt Schornick personally along with our dealership still sponsering Arnie Beswick(he hopes to be driving again next year).
I believe without a doubt that -NO- Ram Air 5 came from the factory or through engineering.
You have to remember that in late 1969 Pontiac lost to Chevy-John Deloreon. Jim Wangers was gone from the Ad agency also. It was a time of change with James McDonald taking charge of Pontiac. He was a 'corporate guy' that followed the book. I doubt he would have jeopordized his new position to build or have engineering build 2 non-emmission certified cars for racing or to sell,no matter who the dealer was. I also don't think anyone in engineering or marketing would have put there neck out to do this and risk there future or retirement for 2 cars,especially when you had new top management that once again was used to doing things 'the GM way'.
The ' memo' has used to make the production line aware of a unique feature. I have attached an invoice to a 1968 GTO showing 'memo and memo number' along with actual build sheet verifying that memo number with the special instructions. Has a build sheet turned up for either car?.That would tell the memo mystery on these cars. The 'special equipment' charge on the invoice in my opinion could be for the special sound deadener delete and lack of underlying carpet insulation and no body sealer.I believe in an earlier post Micky Hale confirmed these features on Mike's car. In 1970 there was no regular RPO(regular production number) for this feature. This would have required a memo for assembly line workers to make these changes.
As far as the 2 cars,from the build sheets posted they have consecutive dealer order numbers. That would tell me that Knafel was possibly planning to race both cars(auto and 4-speed). Mike's(sixties muscle) car also could not have been an advertising car that Knafel received for a 'good deal' because of that same dealer order number and the fact it shows the dealer would have received his'holdback' carry over allowance money for a 'new- car. Any company car,press car or brass hat car from the factory for reduced prices would not have ' holdback' and also show milage when taken out of service on the actual invoice.
I have attached a small piece from the November 1970 'Car Craft' magazine featuring an article on the Knafel race car 1970 Judge (Mike's car). It clearly states the car was built -without- the use of Ram Air 5 pieces,and this magazine was from when the car was new. I would believe that to be also true of the sold silver Judge.
Mike(sixtiesmuscle),I agree that there was a -LOT- of resentment from Knafel towards Jim Wangers and especially Royal Pontiac for all the press they received. Royal was the number #1 Pontiac performance image dealer in that time. Nobody was even a close second to them.I have met Bill Knafel on several occasions and have found him to be a great person. However,I have heard some of his stories that have raised the eyebrows of a lot of very knowledgeable Pontiac people.
Sorry for the long post. have never tried to attach pictures but here goes...

[Steve_Hoog]

Bob, excellent post /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

I hope you get the article and sheet up!

The silver Judge did have sealer and insullation, so the answer to special equipment and memo lies elsewhere in this vehicle.

[sixtiesmuscle]

Thanks Bob. Great information. See you next week at Vettefest. Mike

[hvychev]

Hey Bob good to hear from you! I knew that you would add to this eventually. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Dajudge

Yes I think Bill Knafel has more integrity in the Pontiac arena than Jim M.

It is a fact that Bill was a forerunner in the developement of drag racing. Without people like Bill, and the person behind Royal, and the people behind other racing teams we would not have the mega sport as it is today. This does not take away from any single drag racing superstar, there is merit in people like Bill he gave drag racing a back bone. Just so happens that Pontiac was Bill's vehicle. I promise you Bill ran into more obstacles than you can imagine, it's always like that when your on the cutting edge.

For those of you that haven't seen this page about Bill, take a look please: History of The Tin Indian (http://www.egaad.com/tinind_history.html)

Jim M. worked for Chevy, and anything he has to say about his knowledge of Chevy from his working expeirence I have no problem with. As for Pontiacs, he has a key to the Pontiac archive room. That is a great blessing indeed, but that does not make him the Pontiac expert. He is now a very valuable tool to the Pontiac enthusiast looking for historical data. Thank you Pontiac for allowing it, and Jim M for what he does do. Something is better than nothing.

Jim wrote me an email a month ago stating he would help me shout from the roof tops if this car was real, next thing I heard from Jim is this one sentence post in this forum. So I'm a little confused at just what it is you've done Jim? Did you come up with some documentation that you haven't told anyone about? Did you even try? Does GM not want you to release something?

Jim, help me to understand why I should believe in you like so many others do.

Now you understand why Bill has my integrity vote?

[mrmuscle]

that is one really cool link. if you go to the goatfinders page and do a search on knafel, it will surprise you how much info he has on him

[olredalert]

-----No offense Steved,but I have just lost interest in anything you have to say...........Bill S

[Jeff H]

It's not really about integrity, it's about documentation vs memory, and I know my memory isn't good enough to remember details from last year let alone 20+ years ago.

[Steve_Hoog]

No offense taken Bill.

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

Documentation is what I want, which ever way it goes.

Jim M offered to help just over a month ago with this very car, and some how that transferred into an unsupported statement in this forum. If he has something to back it up, please Jim tell us! Otherwise he needs to clarify it's just another opinion, especially since so many people hold him in high regard.

[DaJudge]

Jeff you are right it is about documentation and not memory or hear say. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif That is all I have been saying. And I will say it again that these two cars are great cars no matter what. This is a great website keep up the good work guys.

Mike /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[GTOguy]

After reading all of these posts, I have to interject. Steved, I can say absolutely Knafel did not receive a factory RA V car. He did get some engines, though. I am not trying to cut the guy down here as he did do a lot in promoting Pontiacs, HOWEVER,
Since his son started trying to make a profit off of the name a few inconsistencies have been popping up.
1) I am sure Bill or his son said they got some RA V cars. Remember by late 69 he was starting to limit his racing.
2) The only one that stated Running Bear was the GTO prototype is Knafel himself?? Do you really think Bill was the only one to think of this?? The car was not even a factory A/fx car!
3) Bill Knafel even promoted Tims car as the original Running Bear until Tim refused to sign a
Statement giving Bill $$ whenever he show's the car. Bill now says he does not think it is the original car??
4) I was also just told he has also recently sent a similar letter to Green stating he wants 40% of the selling price if sold! Let us see if he starts denying the 66 GTO is the original car!!

So INTEGRITY??

[mrmuscle]

do you know how foolish you sound when you say that you can absolutely say something about something you were never around. you guys kill me with this back and forth stuff. all i know is knafel has more record holding cars than anyone else (especially royal pontiac). go to knafels website that steved posted and look at the magnum 4oo detail sheet and it even says that they will put a ra v in one for you. there was also a picture of a ra 5 engine on a stand in their dealership in the goatfinder a while back. look at knafels 68 advertisement of the ra 2 engines. with less than 275 total ra 2 cars ever built, i wander how many dealers took out full page ads like that. if anyone could have got one, it would have been knafel. i dont think very many people have a clue as to what this guy was all about. i myself didnt until this post started and i started searching the web for things on him and went back and pulled several old magazines articles and it is truely amazing. what amazes me more is how quiet all this has been. until you start realizing what sixtiesmuscle commented on and then see who is doing all the writing about history in the last few years. i personally am starting to doubt alot about what jim wangers has been telling. possibly he is the one out still trying to make a living on his past and it is funny that he never mentions knafels name. but what i am finding out, i wouldnt either if i had been beaten all but maybe once or twice in his (royals) career. the truth is what we as enthusiast deserve and if this sight keeps going, we are obviously going to find out alot more. remember what opinions are like and everybody has one.

[68l30]

Great discussion /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif...Here is a neat Knafel piece of dealer memerobilia.I believe it is a little earlier (63-64?)than the RA V but neat none the less...

Steve

[Charley Lillard]

GTOguy..I would be interested in seeing the letter to Green or the details.

[gtoguru]

I have been reading all your posts with interest. Just have a few comments. I do hope the RAV Judge turns out to be a factory/engineering installed piece. Back in 69 Pontiac had all it could do to keep the RAIV engines running in the cars. Many,many were blown up. John Sawruk said that they had storage buildings full of blown up RAIV's. That is why there are so few original cars left and that is why there are soo many SR blocks floating around. With all that warranty work going on I doubt that engineering would have been seriously testing any RAV combinations. They were busy trying to keep the RAIV's together. But that could also be how Knafel got a factory built GTO with a RAV. Knafel could continue testing the RAV while engineering worked on RAIV warranty issues as well as the 455HO and SD stuff. Also contrary to popular belief all pontiac engine blocks did not get the VIN stamped on them. Most did but I have seen many that did not. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Steve_Hoog]

GTOguy

I have no idea who Tim, Green, or you are; so your wasting your time addressing me with those questions.

It does sound like your a little sour about something, but I can't help you.

Steve

[MotownMadman]

I have a never say never story. This has no reference to the GTO in question, but it is a GM oddity. I have a friend of 30 years who is retired from GM, he worked at the GM proving grounds in Milford Mi. He owns to this day a 66 or 67 Corvette roadster which he obtained from the proving grounds, the car has a big block in which the engine had been assembled on a subcontract basis from a company called Diamond Elkin engineering, this was a Gm test car never meant to leave the confines of GM, but somehow this car still sits in my friends garage. Exactly as assembled by Gm with that test engine it is a honest 10 second quarter mile car. Is the car part of documented history? I highly doubt that fact. How many know of this car? Very few. Does he have documentation to prove it's origin? I highly doubt that also. But, I was there the day he brought the car home from the proving grounds, it remains untouched to this day. Is the Pontiac in question the same situation? I wouldnt think it would have existed all these years without that knowledge coming to light as with this particular Corvette. Can either be documented as fact? Very doubtful. Never say never? Who knows what went on back then. Although some who know of each car may be convinced of their authenticity, without factual evidence to support the origins they become an urban legend. At the same time they are both significant parts of muscle car history even lacking documentation, in which both are best left to hold their place in history for what they are, both important in their own right even without factual proof. Some questions and riddles are left never to be solved.
Thanks,
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[mrmuscle]

i agre completely and totally believe that. there are too many experiemental cars that exist in private collectors hands that were supposedly never ment to leave gm's control. i am continually searching now for more knafel info (and am blown away by what i am finding) and cant believe that the pontiac collectors have not jumped on this years ago. this guys cars should be sought after like any grumpy jenkins, motion or yenko car is. why has it been kept so quiet for so long????? any answers???

[sixtiesmuscle]

GTOguy & gtoguru, who are you??? Please fill out your profiles, or, at least let us know your names.

[lowmile]

Mowtown are you saying there was a second gunman on the grassy nole. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mr70]

It's Ironic that both sides of this Topic seem to agree on one thing,that they want to see paperwork backing the claims,one way or the other.Yet some of these people are not filling out their Member profiles.
C'mon guys,take a few minutes to show us your personal info.
Thanks.
Rick

[Chevy454]

I had the pleasure of hearing John Sawruk speak in Stanton a couple months ago. I race Pure Stock with his son, Jeff Sawruk (350HO Tempest in the low 13s!), and he gave a VERY interesting speech on all things Poncho. He devoted a lot of effort to the SD455 part of the speech, as he was the primary engineer on that project. VERY COOL stuff, and one heck of a nice guy (his son is the same as well). I think he said he was at Pontiac for like 30 years or something?

Oh yeah, and READ THIS THREAD (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=41732&page=0&v iew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)!

[gtoguru]

John Sawruk is retired from GM but still the Pontiac historian and also a consultant. I always go to see his presentations. I would think if there is any engineering documentation on these RAV cars John would be the guy to ask about it.

[Chevy454]

Sounds right...I forgot about the consultant part, as I *believe* he was involved in the '04 GTO project.

In his presentation he want over HP ratings (Net vs Gross), product testing, product development, really cool stuff, coming from someone that was there back in the day. I sent his son Jeff a note, so maybe he can stop by and help shed some light on some of this!

[olredalert]

Jim,

-----Wow,a Pontiac guy from a town named Shelby.What are the odds?Cant remember what part of the state Shelby is located in.Im originally from Medina/Wadsworth area and bought cars from Knafel.Matter of fact I bought a 455 72 TA that was Mrs.Knafels driver for part of that year.
-----There were probably 7 or 8 drive-ins within a 20 mile radius of Knafels.Back in the 65/68 era when we were doing a bunch of street racing it wasnt uncommon to hit em all looking for a particular car or cars we had heard were bad.The thing that has always struck me about Knafels is that they had no packages available for the street,like Bobcats.Yeah,the track history was there,but believe me,we almost never ran across troublesome Pontiacs on the street.And on the odd occasion that we did,we didnt particularly quake in our boots when we saw a Knafel dealer sticker.Believe it or not one of the main guys we would stay away from when there was money involved was a certain 65 442 from Wadsworth or maybe Barberton.Dont ask me why as he would never open the hood.But mostly big horsepower Corvettes and Mopars were the easiest to go fast on the street with.There were a bunch of both in the Knafel area.
-----Cant really say what happened from 69 on up in that area of the world as I went away to school.All this seems sort of odd nowadays as Ive become a big Pontiac fan.Of course,all this drivel has nothing to do with RAVs,but thought I might lighten things up a bit.........Bill S

[gtoguru]

Bill S.,
Shelby is about midway between Cleveland and Columbus near Mansfield. Could be neat living in Shelby and owning a Shelby but Fords have always been BRAND X to me. Im pretty much a GM guy. Lots of Mopars and Chevrolets around here. Pontiacs were always in the minority but may be finally getting their due. The RAIV cars are going for big money on EBAY. Documentation on these cars is usually scarce other than PHS. I have the original window sticker but that is all. A Knafel RAV factory car would be huge if it could be documented. Hope it can be. I will read with interest everyones posts here as this is a great site. Jim

[sixtiesmuscle]

Just so you guys don't think I'm totally nuts saying thatArlen Vanke said my car was the one in a promo pic, I asked Jim M. to see what he had in his files. This looks white to me, and, pretty early. I don't care one way or another, but, at least I satisfied myself that a white was used too.

[Steve_Hoog]

Mike
Did Micky find black paint on the under side of the pedestals of the spoiler, or under the white paint?
Steve

[micky69396]

Its white paint on the bottom of the pedestals. They were painted off of the car best as I can see. I have Pontiac heaven here, A cool RA4 70GTO and a 70 T/A RA 4 4 sp. Hows that for Poncho muscle.

[Steve_Hoog]

Micky

Sweet it is to have a bunch of nice Pontiacs, but if all the cars I saw on your website are in your possesion how do you decide which one to foam at the mouth each day over?

Was there no black paint under the white?

Steve

[micky69396]

Website needs a serious update. I dont have time. All I can say is it looks like black gelcoat or sealer may have been on it. I dont have it stripped yet, was doing it last to make sure the paint was right on it.

[Steve_Hoog]

I'm not positive, but I thought all the white Judges came with the black painted spoiler as with the pic Mike just posted. And I remembered seeing the old pics with the spoiler white under the stripes. Any 70 experts out there that know for sure on this?

[micky69396]

I dont think so, I believe they were body color. I just looked again and it is gray under the paint. Black was some of the sealer from the nuts. I scraped several small spots and that was it just white on the gray.

[442w30]

The black spoiler was an option only on white cars and was ordered on around 51 of them. It was also available in 1971.

[Steve_Hoog]

Do you know if the hood tachs were ever optioned black? Or was that part of the option with the spoiler?

[Steve_Hoog]

I was thinking as I wrote that last question, I should go back and see if you can tell in the pic Mike posted. And it does appear to be white, but my eyesight has been fading in the last few years. I could be wrong.

[442w30]

Hood scoop boots are black on ALL 1970 Judges, and the spoiler was optional. Tach, if ordered (there still was the in-dash tach), was bodycolor.

[BillyBobcat]

Back to the Tunnel Port topic... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

Greetings fellow Gearheads! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif My name is Bill Schultz, and I have owned the 1969 Royal Bobcat GTO since 1979. After the Royal GTOís restoration in the mid 80ís, I have spent a great deal of time and energy researching Tunnel Port engines and their history. After reading the posts concerning RAM AIR V GTOís delivered to Knafel Pontiac, I would like to share the following information that you may find very helpful in regards to this matter:

1) The closest thing to a ìrealî RAM AIR V factory GTO would have to be the turquoise & white Royal Bobcat GTO. This car, actually a RAM AIR IV car, had a PMD Engineering dyno RAM AIR V installed by Royal and tested for Pontiac. This car was the earliest known GTO to use a RA V, and no one was allowed to open the engine up for inspection. The motor was returned to engineering after testing.

2) My factory paper work has an ìEngineering Developmentî notation on it. I would assume any GTO with something as extreme as an engine substitution by Pontiac should have a similar notation. The ìmemoî data on the invoices could refer to anything such as a special option addition, a stripe or paint upgrade, special delivery fees, or added components put in the trunk. Oddly enough, the dealer cost ($76.00) and the retail price ($105.32) of these particular ìspecial equipmentî features reflect the exact cost of a couple of available options on the ë70 GTO at that time.

3) The exhaust situation would prove to be very difficult. The Royal GTO served as the initial template for ìAî body Tunnel Port headers. Taken to JR Headers in Hillsdale, Michigan, they created the first tubular headers offered. These were fender-well units requiring the inner fender to be opened up. Initially these were the only units available in late 1969 & early 1970. Are these the headers on these '70 Judges? Additionally, with few actual exhaust manifolds available and no head pipes ever made, where would the exhaust have come from? It is doubtful Engineering would have made an exhaust, let alone several for multiple cars. I doubt Engineering would have installed headers, though Knafel could have. The warranty and liability ramifications of such a vehicle change for a retail customer would have been huge! The ì$105.32î charge shown on the invoice for these cars could not logically have been for such a large feat as substituting a very expensive motor, making an exhaust, and dealing with the liability issues of the time.

4) Although I do not know Mr. Knafel personally, and I do respect some of the fine racing accomplishments by his dealer, I have been told through the years by other Pontiac authorities, magazine writers, and fellow rival dealership personnel that some of the stories and recollections of his may be slightly exaggerated. I do not know this myself, but if you have dozens of people giving you information, and one person contradicts that information, you typically would have to go with the masses. In my discussions with PMD Engineering staff, press people, dealer personnel and others such as Jim Mattison of PHS, no one has even entertained the thought of Factory RA V GTOís.

In conclusion, based on the above information, I can see nothing to indicate the possibility of ìFactoryî RA V Judges. It is not up to anyone to prove that Pontiac ìdid notî put Tunnel Ports in from the factory, rather it is up to those who believe they did to prove it. I have seen no evidence of this at all, so my thoughts have to go with the real world facts at this point. I deal with concrete facts, and there are none in this case.

Now...letís hear from all the folks who have ìfactoryî RAM AIR VI Tunnel Ports in their cars!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Bill /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[442w30]

This was before my time, but didn't Lilly Tomlin say somethin' like, "And that's the truthhhhhhh!"? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Bill
Will you please post your ìEngineering Developmentî document?
Steve