Apology to Chevy Supercar purists

[sixtiesmuscle]

I know, I know, I'm the one who complains about off the mark threads, but, I'm just responding since this subject hits close to home. Thanks for your patience with us Pontiac fans. Hopefully you'll find it interesting reading. Mike

[Mr70]

I,for one,am Not Complaining.I find it very informative,and feel it is OK.
Welcome Goat Heads! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[hvychev]

That is one neat interesting thread! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[sixtiesmuscle]

Thanks for your support Frank. You're sooo flexible Wheatiesman. See you guys at CHEVY Vettefest where things will be simpler. Yeah right.

[MosportGreen66]

The thread does say SuperCar AND Muscle Car Discussion. GTO's started it all. No worries at all!

[Born30YrsLate]

Thanks to the Pontiac thread I can now carry on a semi-intelligent conversation with some of my friends that are huge pontiac fans....no harm done.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[JoeG]

Come on and turn it on, wind it up ,blow it out ,GTO-- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif They don't write songs like that anymore /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif-----And sadly Pontiac dosen't sell cars like that anymore-----JoeG

[MotownMadman]

Joe,
You are giving away your age! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[JoeG]

Motown,
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif---Well all my cylinders still work and spark plug still fires /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif---Could use a frame-up resto,but----What were we talking about /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif-- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Belair62]

You oughta see her on a road course or a quarter mile
This little modified Pon-Pon has got plenty of style. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[Jeff H]

No reason to apologize for a meaningful thread like the GTO one. This is how we find out information and I think we're lucky to get insight from people like Jim M. But I'm still wandering what the "N15" code stands for on both those sheets next to the "SPEC EQUIP".

[GTO_DON]

Jeff, jim M said that could possibly mean headers in the trunk, and being that N10 is dual exhaust,he might be on the right track. Now to confuse you more: I have a build sheet with spec-equip on it and the code next to it looks more like MIS instead of N15, look at the others closly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[mc25t190]

mike, i know where your heart is,,,, somewhere in there?

[sixtiesmuscle]

I agree Don. Mine is "MIS".

[Jeff H]

Aha, I can see that it isn't a "5" but rather "S". "MIS" sure leaves it wide open for "miscellaneous" though. Oh well, thought there might be something worthwhile with the code.

[mrmuscle]

don, what kind of cool gto's do you have? does one of yours have the special equipment option also? if so do you know what it is?

[LVCamaro]

Hey Mike...no apologies necessary! I love those Goats too. Here's my rare, untouched, survivor, "special" original '68 GTO. LOL!

[Steve_Hoog]

Very nice paint job on the 68!!!

[LVCamaro]

Indeed, it is a nice paint job! My buddy, Tommy White [Aloha Automotive] did the body/paint. The bodywork truly deserves to be black, it's arrow straight.

SS

[Steve_Hoog]

Break out the pic on the Camaro next door, please.

[camarojoe]

Hey LV, Are those the rare Ram Air VII wheels? Are they listed on the build sheet as "Memo" by chance? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[LVCamaro]

For pics/details of that Camaro, click on the July, 2003 Feature Car of this website home page. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

SS

[LVCamaro]

Probably the very first '68 Ram Air GTO with 18" factory Budniks and Vintage A/C. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

SS

[Steve_Hoog]

It's very nice too, I'm partail to the Goat but my GF digs the Camaro.

I want to apologize also for mixing up Pontiac chatter in your Chevy forum. I do have a Big Block Vette if that helps? It's just a working mans race car, not one of these Supercars you all seem to be so fortunate to have but a Chevy none the less.

[55chevy]

I added to it... so I can't bitch.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[JoeC]

64 GTO is a cool car and should get credit as a leader in Muscle car history but I think the 1963 421 Tempest was a real hot rod and should get more credit as first muscle car. Although it was low volume, it fits muscle car definition as small car with big engine as compared to the '63 Z-11 big car big engine. (musclebarge)

[olredalert]

JoeC,

------Yes the 63 Tempest 421s were very fast cars and set in motion things to come.However,as delivered,they were definetly not useable for much of anything.The rope driveshaft and transmission-rear end set up were woefully inept for almost any use.I dont know of any racer that could keep one together,or make one run in as delivered condition.Arnie B told me one time that he just shook his head the first time he looked underneath one,and we all know what he did to his almost immediatly upon recieving it.
------I have a friend who had a brand new 326 3spd (only standard trans available) convertible and his was always in the shop for one drivetrain problem or another.That engine was 250hp.Can you imagine what the 421 would do.I know the trans was upgraded but,as delivered it wasnt near enough!
-----They are a great looking little car though and when modified with the correct trans location and rear-end they make for a great package..........Bill S

[JoeC]

Bill,
That trans set up was ahead of its time but did have some problems.
Do you know what trans set up was used on the Ray Nicklos 421 Tempest that won the race at Daytona Speed Weeks 1963. It beat the 427 Corvette MKII, Ferraris and other exotic cars. AJ Foyt was second in a Z06.

[Eddie M.]

Beings I was riding bicycle's around the time of those cool cars. that thread was a great history lesson for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[olredalert]

JoeC,

-----I remember the car and the race,but dont remember the configuration of the Tempest.I would be interested to know.Would have been a cool race to experience.
-----Right around that era I did go to the Sebring 12hr(I think I was 15 or so) and actually held Donna Mae Mims up on the wall to watch the start.That made such an impression on me I have forgotten what Don was racing that year!........Bill S

[JoeC]

I talked to Donna Mae a couple of weeks ago. She is helping us with the nomination of Don Yenko to the Corvette hall of fame. She is the first woman SCCA national champ. I have some old pictures of her and can see why you would remember her.

[olredalert]

-------Yup!She got that 15 year old libido all fired up.
-------I do remember one of the Grand Sport roadsters in that race or maybe the next year.It was the Sunoco blue Penske car.It would come down the back straight(behind the pits)at what looked like 300MPH to my young mind,nose way in the air.Seemed to sort of jump all over the place.I now realize that this was a function of the poor aerodynamics.Then the brakes were applied(read slammed)for the hairpin before the start/finish.As the car came out of the hairpin and hit the throttle,it would lift the inside front tire off the ground for about 200ft.In the process it would pass all the little stuff in its way(read everything)lap after lap after lap.Awsome sight!
-------Years later I had the good fortune to be part of the restoration process on that very same Grand Sport........Bill S

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
The rope driveshaft and transmission-rear end set up were woefully inept for almost any use.I dont know of any racer that could keep one together,or make one run in as delivered condition

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the guys I race Pure Stock with recently rebuilt one of those setups for a car being done over at Scott Tieman's shop, and from what he described those setups are a NIGHTMARE. Anyone know anything about that 421 at Tieman's? He told me who's it was but forgot!

[JoeC]

I heard one was being restored. As I recall, It used the Tempest 2 sp auto trans in front of the transaxle then had a special case mounted behind the transaxle with another 2 sp auto trans making it a 4sp set-up. It could be set up to use a clutch or a AT converter. Had the starter mounted on it to. The "rope" drive was direct connected to the engine so it turned all the time it was running. The street car had this feature also. When it had some miles on it, the spinning drive shaft would vibrate the whole car when in neutral. These hot rod Tempest had great wt distribution and they even made a dragon wagon. Very cool factory race cars. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Chevy454]

Yep, that's it! As he was explaining the setup to me and what needed to be done it was all I could do to fathom the complexity. I think the owner's name of the car that was at Tieman's was "Randy" something?

[Jeff Murphy]

Bill,

Have you had the chance to read Paul Van Valkenburgh's book called "Chevrolet= Racing?: 14 Years of Raucous Silence! 1957-1970"? You'd love it if you haven't.

Actually, I'd recommend it to any site member that likes the old racing stuff. Not too much drag racing, but the book has extensive coverage of Duntov's early projects up through the Grand Sport program, Jim Hall's Chaparral operations, Penske/Donohue, Smokey Yunick, Yenko's Stinger program and the development of the Can-Am/ZL-1 engine... And even better, it was written by an insider. Van Valkenburgh was an insider at Chevrolet Research and Development as an aerodynamicist in competition vehicle dynamics.

Great stuff. I managed to find a 1972 first edition for a decent price, but they've done a recent reprint.

[JoeC]

That is a great book. He messed up on the Yenko Stinger history but still great overall book to read. Smokey Y's books are great to and tell some of the story of "Chevy Racing". When I had Donna Mae on the phone I asked about Vinnce Piggins and the Chevy Racing underground and she said she remmembers engineers (in suit and tie) comming to the track dropping off special parts. Yenko, Grady Davis (Gulf Oil), and Zora, worked together (with many others) to dominiate SCCA B/Production winning 1961, 1962, 1963. Don had '62, 63 and should have had 61 but was suspendened so Dick Thompson took over and was 61 points champ. Gulf Oil spent big bucks on engine developement. They said it anyone had more HP then the Gulf Oil B/P Corvettes (61 62 63) they were cheating. Nickey Chevy/Jim Jeffords won B/P in the purple people eater Corvette before Don.