???

[Stuart Adams]

I've always wanted to ask the gurus this question. There seems to be a double standard when it comes to #'s matching or original equipment. If a supercar has non original equipment but is documented as a supercar then the originality of components doesn't seem to mean much as long as its restored with the correct components and #'s put back on particular components. But if a 69 Z or others doesn't have original equipment even though its documented (POP), etc., and put back to its original state with correct numbers the car community views this as voodoo or the car takes a beating with comments etc., even though the car is legit. This thread is in no way directed at us members, I just want some candid honest thoughts on this puzzling issue that many people are stuck on. Now if a car is faked thats bunk but lets compare apples to apples.
Kenny - awesome 69 Z.

[Supercar_Kid]

I think it comes down to simple supply and demand. "Supercars" are in very low supply and in great demand, so when a "Supercar" is found less engine, trans, rear, etc. it makes sense to substitute these parts with the next best thing, i.e. date specific castings, CE blocks, re-stamped parts, etc. When the car is "complete" again it's value should at least warrant the efforts put forth (tracking down $$$ parts etc.) to make it that way. Since there is so much demand for the ultra rare Supercars, even a reconstituted example will still attract many eager buyers and be looked at as a good collectible car. While the same scenario can and does apply to lesser cars like Z/28's, Super Sports, etc. they are simply not rare enough for everyone to overlook their shortcomings (incorrect parts, non-factory intstalled parts, re-stamped parts, etc.) for them to be seen as valuable purchases. The car carrying non-factory installed parts (re-stamped parts, over the counter parts, etc.) is always the lesser car, sometimes it's just not as detrimental to the car's overall value if it is so rare that few "correct" examples exist, i.e. lack of substitutes. Take the '69 ZL-1 Camaros for example, very few of these cars have their original drivetrains, but they are still very valuable and coveted cars nonetheless. Simply because they are so rare that a NOM ZL-1 is enough for most, while undoubtedly the unmolested #'s car will be worth significantly more. Also keep in mind that some lesser cars like Z/28's and SS models may already be looked at by some buyers as a cost effective substitute for a "supercar." For this reason many of them are only willing to buck up for a pefect unmolested example. That's not to say that there aren't plenty of people waiting to throw $ down for a NOM Z/28 or SS, but it's just not to the same degree as those people who have been waiting for a chance to find that ultra rare Supercar. Look at it like you'd look at anything else of rarity, if you were looking for dinosaur you'd pretty much take anything you found and you'd be happy. If you were only looking for an alligator you might wait around for just the right one with all it's original teeth etc. In the supercar world, you take what you can get when you can get it, JMO.

[Stuart Adams]

Excellent, thank you.

[Pantera]

This discussion raises questions in my mind about the 2 Baldwin Cars that I own. #1 is the first Phase III vette that Joel made and is on the cover of CAR's Magazine back in '69. I only have 45,000 mi on it and in my eyes, is not needing to be totally dismantled and restored. I feel that is worth more as a surivor car with as much just the way it came from Joels shop when new. The #2 '70 car is a 15,000 mi car and even though the LS-7 is long gone now, I am tryijng to piece one back togther to go in it. Of course any motor that goes into it would be correct as it was factory delivered with a 390 hp 454 and Joel put the LS-7 crate motor in it. Other than that it is totally still the way it came from Joel except for the flex fan blade sticking through the hood. I will not ever take this car down to the last bolt. It is almost as new as Kevins Camaro but with the distinction of having the original BOS from Baldwin Chev. and original paint that is now bad. It still smells like new leather when you open the door.

So my question and delima is just which way to go. I think the original unmolested cars are someday going to be worth more than any pieced together "real supercar". I think I will do a extremely detailed repaint of both of these cars back to Motion new and try to take them back as close as I can to what they were when new. With no more miles on them than they have; they don't need to be totally dismantled and I think I will just repair with correct vintage parts anything that is wrong and do a very full and correct paint job, by pulling the doors and hood. Hell there is really no need to take them off the frame and destroy the factory markings and such. If they were off the frame there is very little on a Vete that I can paint off the frame, that I can't paint with the body on the frame. Just will take a little more masking to perserve the undercariage.

Just wondering what you guys think? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

A good original question/post, look forward to other responses, unless it has been answered as well as it can?

Mike

[Charley Lillard]

I think I would leave em alone and not paint them. But then I don't have to look at them everyday either.

[DSYenko]

Pantera
The decision is yours ,you have a 50/50 chance of having done the right thing when (someday)comes depending on what choice you make today.If you chose to do nothing at this point in time you cant be wrong because it will still be original,and as you know there only original once.
As far as (someday),when will someday be here?? How will we know?? These cars are 30 plus years old right now!!Also when (someday) gets here I dont think the determining factors will be any different than today as far as which way is more valuable In my opinion (right now could be the someday we all refer to)
I know many will disagree,many just might not want to admit it, but I think these could be the best days for these cars as far as price and collectability!I hope not and could be wrong but time will tell.
I better just stop here as somehow im feeling like I just walked into the lyon's den.
Please don't kick me off the site for the above statements, just bash my desk a while longer for not having the correct repro grille ,that will be punishment enough! Pantera, I'd leave the cars as they are even if their not "perfect". Duane

[55chevy]

Start by cleaning them up and try and preserve as much originality as you can. But you might need to put some new side pipes on that white one Larry. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Let me know when you're ready to dig 'em out of there.

[Pantera]

I wish I could leave them the way they are but at the very least they deserve to be repainted and I can do a quality job on them. I stripped the paint off the '69 down to bare glass years ago and then quit working on it so that I could devote more time to racing SCCA cars. I have always thought I would live forever when I was young and now all of a sudden I am looking hard at 60!!! I want to be sure that these cars survive me and go into hands that will perserve them.

I love them and they are so much fun to cruise the drive in's in on a Sat night. Of course they are now too valuable to risk doing that with. Naw.... I will have to go once or twice with one or the other. That dam LS-7 has got to be a handfull at low speeds and it has to be even harder to go slow in with the alum heads and the hotter cam. I had a hard time with cooling the LS-6 that is in it now. The last time I drove it was at Hallett OK racetrack in a SCCA autocross where we got to run the entire track. On Hoosiers it ran a 1:29.8 which would be good enough to be on the second row of the grid of a GT-1 race back in the '80's.

I will be repairing just what needs to be fixed and give them both a hell of a paint job and then show them to the world. I really hate it that the '69 is Hugger orange instead of red like it looks like on the cover of the Cars magazine.

In all actually I would really like to go back black w/gold stripe the way I first got it. Damm that was one beatiful car back then. I think I will try to find a clone to make it look like it did back then so that I could go cruise with it. Perhaps a SB callaway drivetrain instead of the big block for street use? might even be faster than the BB 427.