70 Judge RAIV and V continuation

[Charley Lillard]

Continue the discussion here if you want.

[zgator]

I'd like to know if you could get a RAIV GTO with a bench seat? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Don't know why you couldn't, sure would make it nicer on a date with a hot chic.

[L67WT1]

Yes you could I know of an Atoll Blue RA IV car in the midwest that has a bench seat it is on the paperwork. They have a different shifter that is curved to go around the bench seat. I have also seen column shift Judges and GTO's as well

[Steve_Hoog]

My apologizes to the forum for not listing the source of the quote and stating that it was an excerpt.

It's was intended for Joe with only showing a relevance toward the shipping issue.

Now I feel like I'm back in grade doing a report, and that old hag teacher is on my case.

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
My apologizes to the forum for not listing the source of the quote and stating that it was an excerpt.

It's was intended for Joe with only showing a relevance toward the shipping issue.

Now I feel like I'm back in grade doing a report, and that old hag teacher is on my case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,

You may want to go back and proof read your post before that "old hag teacher" sees it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[MrsBillyBobcat]

By the way, guysÖ

Did we break the WORLD RECORD for ìthe most Pontiac posts, in a single thread, on a Chevy forumî ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[gtomike1967]

"I accepted more cars right out of Pontiacís engineering department than anyone else. The cars would come off the assembly line and weíd pick them right up."

Isnt this a contradiction?
He is saying he got cars straight from the engineering dept. Then says he got them off the assembly line.
I would assume that the engineering cars came off the line then went to engineering then to Knafels?
Im just curious.

[jfkheat]

Heck, I think the record was broken for the most Chevy posts on a Chevy message board./ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
James

[Steve_Hoog]

I was only looking at that in my thoughts of whether to pursue the shipping angle that Joe suggested. Whatever else you want to conclude from it, have at it.

[Supergas990]

Roger, (resto4u)

Just wondering if you were able to get any more info on the RA IV GTO or possibly buy the car? There have been so many posts I might have missed the final outcome, but was curious.

Blair

[Born30YrsLate]

How about we all go over to a Pontiac board and start a post on Chevy Supercars....fair is fair... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[sixtiesmuscle]

Good idea Fred, but, I think it might get shut down a lot faster than it would get up to 19 pages. As for all those who have emailed asking ME to get Mrs BillyBobcat to enlarge the picture, I say do it yourself. I know it's nice to now have two Mrs posting, but, now we REALLY have to keep it clean.

[bkhpah]

Just for kicks, I drove and punished my buddies RA V 1969 GTO. M22 4:56.1. Yes it was an over the counter deal, but that is the sweetest sounding stock Pontiac I have ever been around. And I have been around a few stock RA IV...BKH /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[sixtiesmuscle]

Believe it or not, the RAV program was a failure because the motors were not as good as the RA IV. The tunnel port heads were a great concept, albeit one ripped off from Ford, but, according to sources who were there, they couldn't get them to work as well as the IV heads on the 400 C.I. block. Now, do a little work on them, and, bolt them onto a bigger cube engine, and, look out. From everything I've heard, however, the "stock" RAIV would outperform the stock RAV. Now we have something to keep our new Pontiac friends around to discuss. Any opinions? LOL

[MotownMadman]

Sixties,
My Team Shelby 68 TA Mustang has the one year only 302 Tunnel Port engine, the engine made a lot of HP but it only worked really well at high RPM due to the volume of fuel/air mixture coming through the huge ports. That created the problem which caused the engines to keep exploding, the high RPM caused all the oil to be in the top of the engine and the drains in the heads were not large enough to get it back to the pan before they grenaded. Ford had built the TA engines on the assembly line to prove to the public how good their manufacturing was, because of that they dictated to Shelby that the team was not allowed to alter or change the engines to correct the problem. Had it not been for the politics Ford would have made a better showing with the tunnel port design against Chevrolet, but I dont believe they could have took the championship away from the 302 Z engine, even with the problem corrected. The huge intake ports were just too much for the amount of cubic inch of the 302. Fords 427 Tunnel Port worked much better with the TP design, as it probebly would have worked better for Pontiac with more cubic inch.
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[gtoguru]

Yes I own a 69 GTO Judge with RAIV, bench seat, and column shift turbo 400. Car is also Starlight Black.

[Steve_Hoog]

You got some pics of that starlight Judge? That sounds sweet and I'd like to see it.

[gtoguru]

The car is in many pieces at the present time awaiting a frame off restoration. Hope to start on it maybe next fall if finances allow it. A guy had one at the GTO Nats this summer( RAIV Judge, 4 speed, Starlight Black ) and it certainly commanded everyones attention. Hoping to make mine as nice but it will take me a while to do one that good. It aint going anywhere though. Jim

[bkhpah]

All I know about the RA V in my friends Goat is that the motor was built by the Glasgo's "sp". They are real Pontiac motor people. It was strong...BKH

[sixtiesmuscle]

Yes they are!! I'd be curious what the displacement is. Was it a solid lifter cam? Dd it feel like a low end torque, or, high winding [for a Pontiac] motor?

[Belair62]

High winding Pontiac = parts on street

[resto4u]

supergas, I am still working on the owner to sell. He drag raced the car in the 80's at union grove,cordova,byron and a strip out by cedar falls iowa where he used to live. He said it would win against just about anything except a SD or light weight catalina. He has had the car since it was 3 yrs. old. You can't blame a guy for being hesitant about selling something owned that long, and the memories. And thank you to all who have made this the longest post i have ever started. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif Roger

[Born30YrsLate]

No Roger - thank you - for starting this post and bringing all these Pontiac guys over here... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif...I wonder if during this pontiac thread if this site had the largest increase in new member sign up in a single week.....we all got an education - that's for sure..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
As for all those who have emailed asking ME to get Mrs BillyBobcat to enlarge the picture, I say do it yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

ROTFLMAO!!! Thanks Mike! I needed that after these past few days! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Please don't feel as if you have to keep it "clean" for me, I spend most of my time around "car guys" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

By the wayÖI just left the ìLoungeî. I introduced myself there and posted a ìTOPLESSî pic /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

I thought you Chevy boyz could use a little lesson in drag racing....

This is how it is all the way down the track, lookin at our tail lights.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Belair62]

......and then you woke up ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

No.... this is for real.... see

[MotownMadman]

Steve,
PROZAC works wonders, it brings back a sense of reality! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Steve,
PROZAC works wonders, it brings back a sense of reality! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

NO NO... the evidence cleary shows the 2002 Johnny Lightning whooping the Vintage 1969 Redline Heavy Chevy. Normally I'm a Redline man, but the Judge is bad.

I like Viagra more.

[MotownMadman]

Steve,
My sympathies go out to you for the necessity of Viagra use. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Matt

You ever heard of that band Limp Bisket? I cry every time I hear one of their songs.

[MarkIV427]

[ QUOTE ]
I cry every time I hear one of there songs.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hear PROZAC works wonders for that too! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

And btw...did you ever hear that song "Hard as a Rock" by AC/DC? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Pantera]

You must be mistaken, That looks like how far we usually spot a Pontiac off the line.....
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Belair62]

MrsB...Is that Michael Jackson standing next to the GTO ? Pic is so small we can't tell...Pantera...you would do well to check up on that Steved guy since he is in Tulsa....he must be smoking some type of Goat chips.

[Steve_Hoog]

Now Pantera.... you know good and well Chevy guys do more Monday quarterbacking than any other ....wait this doesn't include Ford and Dodge...... any other GM car. "Maybe if I get more N.O.S. or a bigger cam, then maybe I can get close enough to read his tag next time".

I might get motivated for a trip to Church Sunday over there on Sheridan, which service and what time do you go?

[Pantera]

What can I say ..... these kids like stuff I never heard of nowadays..??? My favorite Biscuits are Pillsbury butter tasting .... but I doubt that is what he is refering to?? He seems to be a OK kinda guy to me.



We spent some time on the phone the other night. he lives and breathes GTO's. Now to me that is not bad just different. I love all kinds of different cars. Biscuits too...!!!! Mmmmmm... think I hear one calling my name now?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[55chevy]

Don't forget the gravy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

The research is in full gear on the silver Judge, soon as something pops I'll post it. In the mean time while digging through old documents n such.... there are listings for RAV-WI and WY motors for standard / XY and XW for Automantic. Does anyone know how that can be since they were all sold over the counter, for the most part? After pondering on it a bit, I might guess they were camed different accordingly in the crate. But the same book only list one cam, 545713. So then I begin to wonder if they came with or whithout the clutch set up? That seems a little odd because they could have sold that seprate, just as we do today. Anyone know the answers without lashing out at me? And yes I realize it's just a book, not gospel.

Info source: Pontiac HD parts & specs by Craig Hendrickson & Kern Osterstock HO Racing Specialties INC.

Tom you might know this one, you would appear to be top dog on RAV stuff in this forum.

[Steve_Hoog]

Tom

Pete McCarthy in one of his books list a 545982 flywheel but doesn't mention it's nature. Do you have one or know what it is? Standard or auto, and what material?

Source Pontiac Musclecar Perfomance Pete McCarthy and John Angeles Page 219

Also this book list no variations of parts depedent on transmission usage.

[MarkIV427]

[ QUOTE ]
Tom you might know this one, you would appear to be top dog on RAV stuff in this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,

I mean no disrespect here, but I went back and read that thread. From what I can tell, it appears that he is the only Pontiac guy that you and your buddy "mrmuscle" have not alienated.

[Steve_Hoog]

Mark

Sometimes the boat has to be rocked a little bit.

I think I squared things with Jim M.

And Bill Shultz was a misunderstanding; I honestly thought he was one of the aynonmous phone call people, just faking an id to jack with me.

GTO_Don, I can't explain him.

Dajudge was a race challenge, I never was mad at him and I don't think he's mad at me. He is more than welcome to correct me.

I like this forum, and if numbers and attention are ok with the leaders. The site sure got that. I think everyone learned something, I know I have. We still yet may change Pontiac history, and this debate was going on long before it hit this site.

If no Pontiacs had ever left the doors without this motor so be it. But if they did, the more time that goes by the harder to prove.

Would you agree from what you've read there is room for suspicion that a RAV motor may have been so put in a car or two?

[sixtiesmuscle]

Don't start that again Steve. I know some of us want to do something else THIS weekend.

[GTO_DON]

what do you mean 'you cant explain me'! DONT TRY TO! im one of the nicest people you would ever meet. its when somebody is bullheaded and constantly makes stupid remarks about a subject he knows nothing about.For your information,those codes are published in that book because it was going to be a production engine! anybody knows any and every over the counter block just had a SR ON IT FOR SERVICE REPLACEMENT! NO CODES. ITS PLAIN TO SEE SOMEBODY STAMPED THAT BLOCK YOU HAVE [OTHER THAN PONTIAC]THATS WHY THAT JUDGE WILL NEVER TURN OUT TO BE REAL. EXPLAIN THAT!! signed; Pete townsend /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Don

Let's see you be objective. Take another look and lets talk about it reasonably.

[Steve_Hoog]

I conclude that it was done long ago, how long I have no clue, I would certainly say before 99, the combonation of rust, paint, and depth leaves me to believe the W and numbers are of the same time and style stamping, leaving the Y not an exact match and out of line with the W, what does the Y mean, I don't know, I promise you I didn't do it, I don't see SR anywhere....?

[gtoguru]

Although most SR blocks dont have engine codes stamped in them the service techs were supposed to stamp the code in them the same as the block they were replacing. For ID purposes. This didnt get done very often. Dont know that a RAV block would have a SR # as it was not a replacement for any block installed in a car. Probably had an engineering DS # if anything.

[Steve_Hoog]

Put aside all the previous debate of whether it came in a car or over the counter, my question is now "what is a production code doing in a RAV block?"

If we assume for the discussion that it is an untampered GM stamp, then why is it there?

It was suggested to me today during a phone conversation that the crate engines may have had a different holley carb and accordingly stamped in the crate as such. We are now waiting on verification on that theory from the owner of one of the motors.

[JLP]

On one of the pictures I have of a RA V (Rodder and Super Stock )it shows a smog pump and all its accessories on the engine. It is setting beside another engine with all the smog accessories. Pictures show several engines.

Apparently Pontiac was trying to get it certified otherwise why put it on the engine. If they were trying to get it certified then it would make sense to put a code on the engine for future reference. The WY code shows here http://www.wallaceracing.com/cgi-bin/engine3.cgi as a 400/375hp engine along with 3 other 375 hp engines.

I also have pix of the engine in a car with the smog pump/accessories attached.

[Steve_Hoog]

It does look like GM was gearing up for production, why else would they have set up codes. They must have invested a substantial amount of money in the RAV program.

They had even converted the base of the ram air cleaner to accept the holley, as "5RA" is listed in the the air cleaner block on several RAIV build sheets.

Tried your link out, some one has a nice site there.

[Jeff H]

Steve, what is that other unber stamped on the block? Isn't that the engine production number? If so, wasn't it part of a sequential numbering scheme? If that's true as well, then shouldn't that number be related to some date range? Then you can see if the engine was built before or after the car was built. How do the dates relate on the block vs the car's build date? Jack, I'll try to get those magazine articles loaded up later today and link them in so people can take a look at them. The smog setup makes you think they were trying to prep it for regular production. You can also see the heat riser tubes for the air cleaner which would also be for a production engine.

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff
I too have wondered about the number, the one block that I have had in my physical sight other than this one had the number only. No production code, no SR, and VIN... so I'm not sure. I'll check on the date code next time I talk to Gary, after I get to the bottom of the production code then I'll work on that long number. I should say if I get to the bottom of it, nothing about this has been easy.
Steve

[JLP]

Jeff,
Sorry to have jumped in and not trying to hurry you along at all. Just wanted steved and others to understand that there is information to substantiate the fact that they were trying to certify the engine for production.

For others I sent Jeff quite a bit of information that he is going to put on a link for all to view. Both magazine articles and lots of pictures. Just be patient with him and he will get it to us when he can. I assume he has a life outside this forum. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Jeff H]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume he has a life outside this forum. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I was at Englishtown today for the last day of the season. Perfect weather for late November. Saw some nice Mopars(Cuda and 69 Charger) running low 12's and those turbo Buick's running mid-high 9's.

[MrsBillyBobcat]

Steve,

Is the number above the ìWYî on the engine block ì689549î? (thatís what it looks like) Also, is the photo in your attachment from the block that is currently in Garyís silver Judge (the one that has been there since it left the factory)?

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

I can't tell what the first number is, that is the block out of the car. The air cleaner pic was a sheet pulled off a car before it left the line (not the car in debate).

Gary sent this to me in an email concerning the stamping:

"Remind them that I scraped the original paint off to take the picture, this was a factory stamp. Look at 100 original pontiac engines of all types and the two letters don't always line up perfect. If someone was trying to make a bogus stamping, they would do it perfect anyway."

I'll get the date code and first digit soon as I talk to him again.

[tjs44]

JLP,the only pic I have seen with the pump was the 303 engine.The production exhaust manifolds had a pluged port for the pump tubes.Also the 69 T/A R/A pan was clearanced for the Holley.I really believe the motors were designed more for the bird than the GTO as there were way more exhaust manifolds out there for the birds.Tom

[JLP]

When Jeff gets them posted in the Rodder and Super Stock Magazine article there is a picture from above of an engine and you can see the one next to it also. Pix was taken almost directly over the RH valve cover. Easy to see the smog equipment. There is a set of 4 pictures with a page # of 15 and one of them is an engine on a dyno. Long branch exhaust manifolds but don't know enough to tell what they are for. Almost look like big car type.

In the Article written by Alex Warlordy it shows the only good picture (page 51) of the engine actually installed in a car. You can see the smog pump etc. quite clearly. You will have to enlarge the photos to see them. Who knows, I may actually cause more ?? than I try to clear up. I am just trying to give more information. It would be great if one came off the assembly line in a car but if not, oh well.

When the link is posted I would suggest printing all articles then you can put it together better than I am here. I sent these to Jeff because I felt someone from this site should try to post them for this thread.

By the way, I lived in Kodiak, AK when I gathered all these articles. Ordered the T-37, 455HO there too. Didn't even live near a drag strip. Well, at least not a legal one. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif Be patient and they will find their way to the web with the link here.

[Steve_Hoog]

JLP

That is an interesting post for sure, don't know what it means but I sure want to find out.

I have a lead on a possible assembly line worker, hopefully that will pan out to some good info. Via the immaculant Build Sheet. He is slow to email, and I have many questions for him.

I also have some type of engineering notes or possilbe RAV projection from GM maybe..? Not sure what that will be until I get it in the mail later next week.

We might not prove this or that, but we sure may become more knowledgeable on RAV before it's over.

[pont406]

Hello, another first time poster,been following this thread with interest, was looking thru my copy of "The Big Little GTO Book" by Albert Drake, on page 143 there's a picture of a RAV motor with the smog pump,etc on it. there's some quotes from George Delorean, on how he and a partner, tried to strike a deal with Jaguar, to get some engineless Jags, to transplant RAV motors in them, because Jaguar was having trouble passing emissions at that time.it fell thru, but he claims he was doing everything he could, to keep the RAV program alive! interesting info. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[JLP]

The reason for the post is information. I had it and wanted to share it and hoped it would shed some more light on the RA V discussion. Nothing more, nothing less. I apologise for the confusion. Let's see what happens.

[Steve_Hoog]

Tom

Have you ever seen this document? The seller sent me this one page of 9 over email, I asked him what was it's origin but he told me I would find out from the cover page when I recieved it.

Also the carbs your talking about, do you know if they could be bought seperate or just on the crate motors?

Steve

[Jeff H]

Well, the site I'm trying to load the articles to is limiting the size and it's a little slow to load. I've resized the articles some, but I din't want to go too small. If anyone wants the articles full size, I can email them since I have a cable connection which is pretty quick. Here's the links to the pages of the Street Rodder article:
Rodder Page 1 (http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/[email protected]/RamAirV/Rodder&SuperstockRAVArticle.jpg)
Rodder Page 2 (http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/[email protected]/RamAirV/Rodder&SuperstockRAVArticle001.jpg)
Rodder Page 3 (http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/[email protected]/RamAirV/Rodder&SuperstockRAVArticle004.jpg)
Rodder Page 4 (http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/[email protected]/RamAirV/Rodder&SuperstockRAVArticle005.jpg)
Rodder Page 5 (http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/[email protected]/RamAirV/Rodder&SuperstockRAVArticle006.jpg)
Rodder Page 6 (http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/[email protected]/RamAirV/Rodder&SuperstockRAVArticle007.jpg)
Rodder Page 7 (http://cjcfo.fbody.com/members/[email protected]/RamAirV/Rodder&SuperstockRAVArticle008.jpg)

[tjs44]

as I thought,those motor pics in attach #6 are for the 303 RAV engine.If you see the carb number 4546,that is the 303 Holley carb,also the red dist cap means they had the TI dist and you will notice also the stick shift flywheel.That is the only engine I have ever seen the pump on.All the other motor pics,HotRod cover and others have not shown the pump on a 400 motor.Tom

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

Excellent work!!!! Vacum operated flaps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where are those at, never heard of them. The article also elludes to the air foils being a later development.

When the article talks about the crank, made me Remember Pete Mc talking about a foundry in Harvey Illinois made them. He asked for a hundred, they told him minimum of 1000. Wonder how long it would take to sell 1000. I'd buy a couple. Be nice if some one with deep pockets would take that project on.

From the photos on the last page, it's very apparent a lot of engineering went into the motor. I wonder who the wonderful person at GM was that pulled the plug on the project.

Steve

[Steve_Hoog]

Tom

In reference to the post a few back, where I attached a pic of a page. This is the description of the auction, have you ever heard of this booklet?

"This booklet was originally released in 1971 by Pontiac Engineering-Special Projects, it contains COMPLETE blueprint-specifications, description and part numbers for all parts of the Ram Air Five Engine. Although the Quality of the copying of this booklet is not great, the information it contains is INVALUABLE. There are nine pages total (b/w), plus an unofficial dyno rating sheet. I will also sell these booklets outright, e-mail me. Picture shown is an actual RA5 engine in a '70 GTO Judge."

[tjs44]

Steve,one reason it was pulled is the engine would not perform as good as a RAIV!EVERYTHING with the combo was no good for making HP.The dual plane intake quits around 6100,the ports are way to big and have good flo but NO velocity,the rods were way too heavy,the exhaust ports were reg pontiac design with turn down ports that have the WORST intake exhaust ratio of ANY pontiac head made.The list goes on as to the complete failure of the project.The heads need big CI,huge lift cams and hi CR to take advantage of the ports.I use a 660 lift cam in my motors.They are a great piece of pontiac history and I have tried to preserve some of it but it was and is a poor combo for racing.Tom

[Steve_Hoog]

Tom

Reality bites!!! But the motor still gets me excited. I can't help it, Pontiac is in my veins.

[Jeff H]

A similar situation to the Chevy small block hemi heads for the 302. They did not better than a slightly worked set of stock heads so the program was scrapped. Those RAV heads have HUGE intake ports. I can see why they didn't perform in real world situations.

[Steve_Hoog]

Some interesting things in the The Big Little GTO by Albert Drake, page 142 and 143. Credits Joh MacDonald with killing the program. Several insights from George DeLorean, and substantialy more engines are around according to George than is typically talked about... It says John D left for Chevy in late 68, which it has been my understanding it was 69. Typos and errors can always be present.

[MotownMadman]

Guys,
It is hard to believe how much these Pontiac heads look like the Ford 302 Tunnel Port heads. It seems Pontiac "Borrowed" the idea from Ford, which doesnt make a lot of sense since Ford had problems with this head configuration in 1968. SCCA rules required any race application engine to be a street unit, although Ford had everyone convinced the Tunnel Port was being released to the public, even a magazine cover showed a street version testing against a Z28, Ford never actually released a street version due to ongoing problems with the head configuration for street use. The SCCA let Ford finish the season with the engine and that was it. They then went to the Boss engine. So why would Pontiac copy a design that proved to be troublesome for both street and racing applications? If anyone is interested I can post some photos of the Ford heads, with the exception of a small difference in exhaust port design they are almost identical.
Thanks,
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Matt

Here's a quote from Ablert Drake's book, page 142:

"One of the Ford factory sponsored cars had a 427 built by Homan and Moody. Delorean (G), fascinated by this powerful, high revving and durable engine, persuaded the driver, Benny Parsons, to lend him the heads, valve train and camshaft. He took these to Pontiac engineers in charge of experimental engine development and they studied the parts closely. The result was Ram Air V."

[MotownMadman]

Steve,
The 427 Tunnel Port performed well as a race engine, but Fords first attempt at using the Tunnel Port design on a production street engine was the 302 in 1968. That is when all the problems had developed for street use. I would have thought that Pontiac would have taken notice to that, but possibly they already had the Pontiac V engine developed to the point of no return, based on the performance of the Ford 427 engine. For that design to work correctly it required huge cubic inches and high RPM which both the Ford 302 and Pontiac 400 were lacking for constant street use.
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[John Glasgo]

I can say from experience that the RA 5 was not the dog that everybody acts like,the 69 GTO that i did with the 5 motor,stock GTO exhaust manifolds,2.5 kinked full exhaust system,4.88 gears ran a 12.4 at 111.00,this was in a concours show car.It pulled hard to 7000 rpm,i drove it once when i first finished it with no exhaust,and 2 foot dumps,that car flat out flew,the exhaust really hurt it.I have had every Pontiac motor made,the RA5 car was definetely the neatest.the biggest flaw with the motor was that the rods were junk,and most of them let go before the true potential of the motor was realized.

[tjs44]

John,I never meant to say the V is a dog.My motor is 446CI,9.5CR and makes 555HP at 6100 with a single 950 holley.I have had a few V motors on the dyno and they all gave up around 6100 with the factory single 4.The 2-4 tunnel ram pulled all the way to 6900.What I was saying is if you put the same setup with a RAIV head with the same flo numbers as the V head,the IV would make more HP.I have not done the compare my self,just from a eduacated guess.Tom

[DaJudge]

Please find attached a picture of the stamping on the front of my RA IV block. This is off a one owner fully documented car. This RA IV JUDGE is a Pontiac Michigan Car which is where the car in question is from. Take a look at the font of the stamping the W in the picture you show is not even close to the style of the font on my block. Look at the engine production serial number above as well. I know for a fact mine is correct the vin is on the block to the passneger side of the timing cover. The casting or part number for a RAM AIR V block is also different as well it is not shared with any 400 block Pontiac Manufactured.

I have been involved with Pontiacs for twenty years, besides the Crystal Turquoise Bobcat car I have only seen one other car with a Ram Air V in it. The owner was restoring a 69 Judge and it was of course Carousel Red. The owner must have wanted the ultimate Judge and found and installed a Ram Air V engine with all the right parts in it. Purely PMD out New Mexico did this car and it was very nice, I saw this car at Dennis Kirbans GTO reunion show that he sponsored years ago. That engine had the block casting numbers but did not have any other markings on it as I recall.

From all the GTO's the I have owned and seen, the stamp on that block does not look right. I have a very open mind to ideas and would love for this car to be a factory V car. But this motor was never emissions certified and the only way that I feel that motor got between those fender wells is by a mech at Knafel Pontiac. After all the research I have done regarding Pontiac GTO restoration and history all markers point to a dealer converted car unless there is a Proctecto Plate or build sheet that shows a RA V serial production code in it this car has to be seen as a dealer installed Ram Air V option. Which is not a bad thing.

The only question I have is why do you or someone else want to make this car something it is not? If Knafel dealer installed this engine that is great. He converted a IV car to a V car as an option.

[Jeff H]

Your picture was not attached to your post. I'm not a Pontiac person so I have no idea what their stampings look like. I agree that a dealer converted RA V is a very special car like the early Yenko's, Nickey, Dana cars. The date on the block and the engine production number should shed some light on the timing though.

[Steve_Hoog]

I thought we were just having a general discussion about RAV? I asked to drop the debate of the car for now, and I was trying to find out if codes are on other RAV blocks. If they are, maybe then go into the actual stamping style or who when and why. I don't know that you could compare this to a regular production block.

[lowmile]

Can anyone tell ME where the casting date is on a RA V is? It must be VERY difficult to find.

[tjs44]

like all pontiac blocks,back by the dist hole.

[rdl]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Here's how one of the few prototype aluminum Ram Air V's escaped from the factory:

December 1969

Mac wheeled the truck passed the main entrance gate to the security post. The evening air was cold, and it nipped at his cheeks as he rolled down the window. The guard recognized Mac with a warm smile. "Working another late night?" he asked. "Not if I can help it", replied Mac with just an hint of scorn in his voice. The guard waved him through with a light chuckle. The truck continued on its way through the dusting of fresh snow that covered the grounds. Between two large industrial buildings, a faint brake squeal brought the panel truck to a gentle halt. Engaging reverse, Mac positioned the vehicle in the empty loading bay, set the parking brake, and killed the engine and running lights. The bay was dark and still. The compound was deserted. Checking his watch, Mac estimated he had at least one hour before the next sentry would circle past for a routine check. He took a moment to ponder his next steps.

Well seasoned and in his late 50's, Mac had been an engineer for almost 30 years. Climbing through the automotive ranks, he had gained the respect of his peers as a pioneer of performance designs. The last ten years had been spent in Pontiac Division's Special Design & Products Department. A cutting edge think-tank and design team assembled by the brass to point the division down the road of the future. With a generous budget, Mac's team had designed and built some of the most impressive performance platforms GM had ever created. While some of the ideas were incorporated into production designs, for reasons of pure politics and economics, the boldest of the designs never saw the light of day. This was never truer than with Mac's latest project. The thought of it boiled his blood. While showered with praise for his accomplishments, word had come down that the project, ... his baby, was to be canned. There was going to be a shift in design parameters for the next decade: high performance was out; emissions and economy were in. In fact, with the labour disruptions, the whole Special Designs team was to be disbanded before the end of the month. Right before the holiday season! "Heartless bastards", Mac muttered under his breath, knowing all too well he was also slated to be axed. Worse news yet: all prototypes and current ongoing projects were to be seized for immediate destruction. A decade of hard work and dedication was about to be cut up and melted down.

Mac brought a flame to a filterless Camel, and took a long, slow draw. With an affirming nod, he flipped the latch and slipped out of the cab. He swung the rear panel doors open and turned to the building. Rattling his keys he worked the big pad lock to the roll-top door. The bearing wheels groaned in a low thunder as Mac heaved open the big door. Darkness. Reaching into his pocket he removed a pen-light and brought a small beam of light to focus on the abyss. In the dim glow, there near the door, were ten unmarked, sealed crates of varying sizes. A smirk creased his now wind-chilled face. With a small dolly he quickly but carefully went to work loading the items into the truck. Fifteen minutes later, the roll-top door was secured and Mac was back at the wheel. The snow was coming down hard now. Just as well, he thought, it will cover my tracks. At the gate, his old pal tipped his hat as he passed. Mac nodded and eased the truck back onto the main road for the trip home.

As tension left his body, warm satisfaction moved quickly to replace it. His ultimate engineering achievement was now safe from the merciless fires of the inferno. The prize was his. Of the five working prototypes, he had assured that this one would not be destroyed...


... to be continued...


PS. Everyone knows this is tongue in cheek, right?
FYI - I'm just another one of the Pure Stock guys who's dropped in for a visit. Nice thread. Excellent info and impressive list of contributors. Cheers!

<font color="blue">rdl</font>

[68z302]

You forgot to add "It was a dark &amp; stormy night" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[gtomike1967]

Great story! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought we were just having a general discussion about RAV? I asked to drop the debate of the car for now, and I was trying to find out if codes are on other RAV blocks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Did I miss something? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif I thought you were trying to get this info to prove (or disprove) that "the car" came from the factory with a Ram Air V? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif



[ QUOTE ]
And Bill Shultz was a misunderstanding; I honestly thought he was one of the aynonmous phone call people, just faking an id to jack with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it Steve, (and I'm not trying to be mean or sarcastic here) do you really think an "anonymous person" would have THAT photo of his car? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif (see attachment to his first post on page 13 of the original thread) If you look at the photo, you can plainly see that it was not taken in a public place like a car show, nor does it look like one of the published photos from a book or magazine (they would not /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif use that photo with the TRUCK in the background) . That is a recent photo that we took while his car was being photographed for an upcoming book.

I will be back later with some information that will hopefully shed some light on this topic. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PS~ I think I am spending too much time here! I had a dream last night that I bought another Camaro. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

This is what I was told today about the other number, one above the production code. It was a number used to reference the engines as they were stored in bins prior to being dropped in a car. Upon being installed on the assembly line a triangle of reference then existed between the car, the GM paperwork, and the engine. Where the GM paperwork that documents this data, may be something the general public may never know, or it just might not exist now. Maybe Jim M. could shed some light on this.

[MrsBillyBobcat]

The verdict is in...You be the îJUDGEî /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Since this topic came up, I have been sifting through Bill's "RAM AIR V" file (while he is at work /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif). He has tons of info on the RAM AIR V motor. I think I may have found something that answers the ìMILLION DOLLAR QUESTIONî here (that being whether or not a particular Judge came from the factory with a RA V). I found photos of a ìcrated RA Vî (the same one) in two different publications from the mid 80ís (see below). It has an engine number stamped on it very similar to the one Steve posted from the Judge in question (see attachment in his post in response to GTO DON on page 3)

The engine in these articles is engine #689539. The one from the Judge in question appears to be engine #689549. I believe the engine number is part of a ìsequential numbering systemî. According to the ìdate cast codeî on engine #689539, it was cast on January 21,1970 during the night shift. Therefore, I would have to believe that engine #689549 would have been cast AFTER that. Since the motor in the Judge was built after January 21, 1970, and the car was invoiced in November of 1969, then logically there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that this engine was in that car from the FACTORY!

Court is now ADJOURNED!


Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

article #1 (http://photo.starblvd.net/mrsbb/2-1-1.jpg)

article #2 (http://photo.starblvd.net/mrsbb/2-1-2.jpg)

[DaJudge]

Nice articles. I stand corrected regarding the stampings the article clearly states that these engines were hand stamped. Way to dig through the archives /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[55chevy]

Ok Rita. Point Made.. Now enlarge that pic. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok Rita. Point Made.. Now enlarge that pic. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You can look for that pic in the next issue of "Chevy Girls Gone Wild on the Supercar Forum" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Rita that is some good work, I wish you would post the entire article and source. I have HPP April 84 that has RAM AIR V Machine Behind The Myth, but pages 29-35 are gone. Just so happens to be right where the article was, I had a bad habit of hanging the cool pics on my shop wall. No doubt where they went.

The Y is identical in the stamp style, and what little you posted partially answers some of my questions.

You have assumed too much with Gary's engine though. I have looked and looked at the pic he gave me, I can't tell if it's a 3, 5, 6, or 8; and I'm leaning towards the 8. It looks like it turns back up where the two circles meet. Too much guess work on how they came about with the numbers, sequential or however they did it.

The only for sure way to know, would be for Gary to tell us the unknown digit and more important the date code. A third engine to reference would be nice too, I'm still trying to track down a lead on that right now.

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]

You have assumed too much with Gary's engine though. I have looked and looked at the pic he gave me, I can't tell if it's a 3, 5, 6, or 8; and I'm leaning towards the 8. It looks like it turns back up where the two circles meet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first digit has to be a "6" since they only made a couple hundred motors. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Did you go back and look at The Little Big GTO book that I referenced? Some descrepincies on the amounts from that, compared to the 200 usually talked about.

They do not have to all be in order, anything is possible with GM. Not matter what Gary's turns out to be, a few more RAV blocks to reference would be nice.

What about the block in your car?

Oh, and that article looks like Classic GTO newsletter print. Is that where it's from?

[Steve_Hoog]

Since the RAV's are hard to come by; if anyone out there has blocks close enough to the numbers here below, please post them so we can see if there is a method to the way they do this. Both of these are out of the original vehicles, and I have no reason to think they are tampered with:

69 GTO 400 YS 0582823 Date code 0049 block 9790071
68 GP 428 YH 164333 Date code 1157 block 9792968

[Jeff H]

Good work Rita, that is what I was suggesting for someone to look into. That engine production number along with the block date should help shed some light. I would guess the NICB should have the shipping date for that Judge as well so if the engine was built after the car was shipped, that should clinch it. Can anyone verify the ship date? I could see where a car could sit for a while like some of the COPO's did when components weren't available.

[Steve_Hoog]

OK, hold on a second. As I was walking through the parking lot I was thinking, we never suggested the car was built with the motor. We have been told that it was put in the car after production, in engineering. I don't know how long engineering typically had a car, but in the middle of winter there wouldn't be much hurry. Certainly for a car intended for the strip.

The date of when Knafel took delivery would be crucial. And we are still working off of Rita's theroy about the date code, that may not be right.

I personally have waited 6 months after ordering a GMC, because they were out of 5 speed tranny's. So the car waiting in engineering for a couple of months may not be to far out of reach.

I threw up the window sticker on the GMC just for grins, was an awesome truck!!

[GTO_DON]

First of all ,forget the big little gto book! That book has so many things wrong in it ,its not funny, I THINK YOUR BEATING A DEAD HORSE HERE STEVED, IM TRYING TO BE SUBJECTIVE. Ofcourse all the block production numbers are going to be in order. Honestly,i cant understand why its so important for you to make this car real! Everytime somebody comes up with another fact,you dismiss it and say'you never know with pontiac" ask gary to publish everthing about htis car including trim tag info and miles on the odometer. Im sure this car should have no more than 5,000 original miles on it if its had a ra v in it since new. im sure it was not an everyday car. how many owners has it had ? Are they still alive? I know if i would have bought that car new,id have every piece of paperwork on it.Is Does this car belong to Gary Daniels? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Don this is from your last post:

"SR ON IT FOR SERVICE REPLACEMENT! NO CODES. ITS PLAIN TO SEE SOMEBODY STAMPED THAT BLOCK YOU HAVE [OTHER THAN PONTIAC]THATS WHY THAT JUDGE WILL NEVER TURN OUT TO"

Rita's research kinda put the slame dunk on your opinions, you are now null and void.

[L67WT1]

Steved, you need to reread the original thread the question from Astock asked "the question is how many factory ram air V Judges were produced /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif" You also implied this was a factory Ram Air V car, quoting the memo notation as proof on the PHS docs.

I believe Mrs. Billybobcat to be correct about the engine serial production number being an ordered sequence and that with only a handful of these engines produced for over the counter use it would make perfect sense that the number is a 6. You get all these other pics but not a date code?

This is the never ending post there have been many noted authorities like Jim M. and I believe an engineer from the engine shop that stated that this engine was never installed at the factory or engineering, but dealer installed.

What else do we need here the second coming? Unless a buildsheet, protecto plate, or an engineering change order that shows that code or serial production code is produced (from a legitimate source) it will always be looked upon as a dealer installed option, which I think is really cool and a unique piece of Pontiac history, a rare car with possible race history with a very rare engine.

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread but it is now like beating a dead horse we all need to agree to disagree and the majority of Poncho fans know what the real deal is.

[Steve_Hoog]

I believe it has been mentioned several times it is the responsibilty for the car to be proved.

Even though Rita is trying to dis-prove it, atleast she is doing something. And with here article post, pretty much smacked Don upside his head with his accusation of fraud. I wasn't going to go back on that; but since Don decided to step back in, there it is.

It would still be nice to get some perspective on the block codes, regarless of the RAV debate. I don't suppose you have a Pontiac block that you could add some insight with?

[Jeff H]

I wouldn't call it case closed until someone can show proof that the car arrived at Knafel before the engine was actually built. Does the PHS documentation show when the car was shipped to the dealer or when the car arrived at the dealer? Or can someone produce an NICB report showing the date Knafel got the car? That seems to be the next logical step in proving or disproving.

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

This is all I have, and it probably has nothing to do with time spent in engineering.

Jim M would probably be the next hope for documentation. Supposedly all of Knafel's records are destroyed.

[L67WT1]

Why would you bother this man again his quote below is from a previous post. If this car was real I believe he would be one of the first to talk it up.

"Guys Pontiac "never" built a Ram Air V GTO at the factory!!!"

Jim Mattison
Pontiac Historic Services


The RA V horse is starting to look like road kill it has been beatin so badly.

[Steve_Hoog]

Because Jim was kind enough to call me during this debate, we worked things out between us. I apologized to him in person and publicly. And he stated, he would do what he could to help in the matter.

Any other questions?

[Jeff H]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you bother this man again his quote below is from a previous post. If this car was real I believe he would be one of the first to talk it up.

"Guys Pontiac "never" built a Ram Air V GTO at the factory!!!"

Jim Mattison
Pontiac Historic Services


The RA V horse is starting to look like road kill it has been beatin so badly.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you can look at it that way. According to Chevrolet records, they never built a 68 Z28 convertible either. And we know that car went to Engineering to have the crossram and rear disc brakes put on. I think the research that has been done regarding this GTO has been very informative. Even if it can be proven that this car arrived at Knafel with a RA IV engine, then what's the story behind the RA V engine that is in the car now? It has the correct engine code and production stampings. Were they stamped after the fact? We'll probably never really know for sure, but why call it a dead issue when there are still questions worth finding answers to.

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Does the PHS documentation show when the car was shipped to the dealer or when the car arrived at the dealer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at the attachment in the reply that Steve posted about this question. The document clearly shows a ìDATE SHIPPEDî of ì11-06-69î It also shows a ìDATE OF NOTEî of ì11-19(?)-69 and a date of ì11-30-69î as ìINTEREST FROMî.
Think about it Steve. You work at a car dealership. Do you really think that the owner of a dealership is going to pay INTEREST for several months on a car that they have not even taken delivery of? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Don this is from your last post:

"SR ON IT FOR SERVICE REPLACEMENT! NO CODES. ITS PLAIN TO SEE SOMEBODY STAMPED THAT BLOCK YOU HAVE [OTHER THAN PONTIAC]THATS WHY THAT JUDGE WILL NEVER TURN OUT TO"

Rita's research kinda put the slame dunk on your opinions, you are now null and void.



[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

THAT WAS NOT FAIR!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif You quoted him in mid-sentence!!! Why do you keep picking on him? Is it because he has a different opinion than you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif It appears that you have been doing this since this thread started.

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

My families dealership never had a car go to engineering that I'm aware of, so I wouldn't have anything to look back on in our files to verify that either way.

Date shipped, could be the date it went to engineering, and interest from could be when it left engineering.

Rita your doing a great job, we just need some way to verify.

We have a man that will probably be making a post some time today that will probably establish your theroy on the date code correlation with the production number. He also thinks all of them started in a 6. If your theroy is correct, all we have to do is find the date it left engineering. It will either prove it didn't happen, or leave the door open.

I'm working on the your date code theory, you think you can find out if the dates on the invioce actually reflect engineering?

[Mr70]

WOW...MrsBillyBobcat
If you were MsBillyBobcat...I'd be calling on you! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Good investigative work here people,Keep it coming.

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
WOW...MrsBillyBobcat
If you were MsBillyBobcat...I'd be calling on you! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Good investigative work here people,Keep it coming.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif THANKS Rick! (LMAO) I needed that! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sixtiesmuscle]

Nice legswork Rita.

[L67WT1]

Jeff I agree that it would be cool to find out how the RA V got in that Judge and if it in fact had some race history like the Tin Indian, but I think that being installed at the factory or engineering is becoming a beatin horse issue. Unlike the 68 Z-28 Covert which had documentation to support that it is the real deal the supposed RA V car in question does not.

I like all musclecars but have been a Pontiac person for a long time. Pontiac guys always love to talk about the RA V as the Hemi or Chevy Rat beater. Although it pains me to write this Chevrolet was always and is GM's racing flagship and when MacDonald took over at Pontiac a lot of programs were stopped. Look at Pontiac today they pulled out of NASCAR. With Toyota coming into the sport you can bet dollars to donuts that all the Racing program money that was earmarked for Pontiac will be given to Chevrolet. ( I know that's a little off topic)to kick Toyotas butt.

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice legswork Rita.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Mike! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BTW...was that "s" suppose to be in there? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Or was your mind somewhere else? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

(just kidding!)

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[sixtiesmuscle]

Uh, just a lousy typist. Don't tell MR. Billy.

[Jeff H]

I think this thread has made some great progress on helping with this particular car. If the car was indeed shipped and delivered in Nov like it appears, and the engine in it was not built until Jan, then that lends a lot of proof that it didn't come in the car new. That's basically what was being asked for in the first thread. Can someone help document or verify the car and engine. I don't know why some people are getting all worked up over the car or information, but together as a whole, this group has produced some great research and evidence. I still think it's interesting to see the "WY" codes on these engines. It sure makes you think they were intended to go in as production engines to receive a production code. Those articles you posted Rita also may help prove that the stamping on the engine Steve posted is an original Pontiac stamp(hand stamped in Engineering) on a RA V engine. This information together has a lot of value.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Rita, did that other engine you were referring to have the "WY" code on it as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it did (see the articles that I attached to the bottom of my post from last night). From what I have read, "WY" is the correct code for a GTO with a manual transmission.

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

As we draw close to the end of this one car...

Something else that has come out of this. If anyone pops their hood claiming to have a RAV block in the bay, they better have their business together if anyone that followed this thread sees it.

[L67WT1]

First of all regarding the date code theory. Pontiac did make some Ram Air V blocks in 69.They were in fact developed for Trans Am racing (303CID) and strip tested in a 69 GTO (400 cid) first. Are you trying to say that if this motor pre-dates the car that it is the real deal. Well I don't believe that. It just means someone purchased a date coded 69 block.

The block in the artcle Mrs Billybobcat attached was date coded 70. The serial production number you are trying to validate is later in the sequence and should have a later date code. If anyone knows RA V's the Shultzes do they have a lot of documentation and a car that is documented.

A 69 car with documentation but a 70 car without, why do you think someone would not document that 70 car? It's only a year later. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm!

[Jeff H]

Yup, these threads have presented some great information. Kind of reminds me about the 283's that some of the 67 Camaros got when they were running low on 327's. The best way to prove or disprove something is to get the most research and evidence together. Even the 68 Camaro 327 TH350 cars weren't thought to be original until they found a bunch of them to help document them. And based on Dan's research into the Hauser ZL1's, I'm open to the possibility that they made more than 69 ZL1 Camaros. I've seen the ads and nobody can identify the mysterious blue car that they had. I'll save that for another argument, I mean discussion.

[L67WT1]

Yes I agree about the codes, but it may be quite simple; if Pontiac was going to have the engines certified for emissions and production to meet AMA specifications then they would have to ship one of each an automatic RA V engine and a manual RA V engine to the emissions testing labs. Vacuum lines and some emissions plumbing were different between autos and sticks. Why is it difficult to believe that they had codes for these engines?

There is no question regarding a RA V engines existence only if it was factory or dealer installed that is where all the commotion came from. After all it's only a piece of iron and it is not worth arguing about or coming down on people for differing opinions /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Don

Gary; the owner of the Silver Judge, would like to know if you know him personally?

[tjs44]

I REALLY hate to throw something else on the dead horse,BUT,after looking at my block numbers on my RA V block,I think that any test engne sent out by the factory would be a developmental engine.They all would have been DS part numbers.My block has DS-1001,under that EO-3777 and under that*5.to the right and between those lines is 98V-400RV-05.I have never seen or had a set of 400 heads that were taped for smog.I have seen and have owned 303 heads that were tapped for smog.AND as far as I know there has only been one set of GTO exhaust found for the GTO body.This further makes me think there were NO factory installed V motors to go to the public in anyway in a GTO.If any V motor was factory installed I think it would have been a 303 WITH a smog pump and castiron exhaust.IMHO,Tom

[DaJudge]

You have posted some great info regarding the RA V. What cars are your RA V's in ? In 1971 David Pearson ran a GTO in NASCAR , it is in fact the only GTO to have ever run in NASCAR. The piece I read stated that the cars ran well but the motors would not last. Does anyone know if that may have been a RAM AIR V? ( I will try to find the piece and post it) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[DaJudge]

two more /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[tjs44]

My RA V motor is a developmental ALU block with all RA V stuff EXCEPT exhaust.I own the exhaust but am running Nunzi headers.It is in a real 69 T/A.I am building a COMPLETE 303 short deck 2-4 Xram SCCA engine.It will be stroker motor,390CI.It will have the correct dist,balancer,X ram 2-4 intake and exhaust.
The Nascar engine was a 366CI engine,it used a std. deck block as far as I remember.

[DaJudge]

Last one checkout the CID callouts on the hood 366 CID. A ram air V under the hood? It would be interesting to know, it would explain where some of the engines wound up . These shots were taken at the 71 Southern 500. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[DaJudge]

Great car to put it in right where it belongs. The callouts on the hood of Pearson's GTO is 366 CID . Pretty interesting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[tjs44]

by the way,my iron 400 AND my alu 400 V blocks BOTH have the DS1001 numbers?

[GTO_DON]

Post deleted by Charley Lillard

[Seattle Sam]

Just when the last embers were dying down....

-S

[Charley Lillard]

GTO_DONS post is exactly what is not needed here. He has been banned for awhile. Please don't anybody else here stoop to that level of post.

[mrmuscle]

don,i havent posted in quite a while because i basically got tired of argueing with people that are dead set on trying to prove something without even looking into the whole picture and for some reason seem to have something personal to lose if the two cars were proven to be real and maybe even find others. most of all i got tired of people degrading mr knafel and acting like he was just some "old car dealer" when in reality we have seen that he was the most winning racer of pontiacs of all time and was inducted into ohios hall of fame. (i could go on but that is not necessary). now, don, you have just documented what kind of a person you really are. obviously you cant handle anyone ever disagreeing with you and when they do you break down. you have a weakness and that is sad. CHARLEY LILLARD posted a response to me on the board that asked me not to attack billybobcat. which i was not trying to attack him, just wanted to know why he was so worried about the possible cars being proven real. i would expect him now to make a very harsh statement toward your actions.
you have made statements you have not backed up. like when are you going to post the copies of the phs sheets that you have with the memo and special equipment options on them? also, do you know gary daniels? if so do you have something against him? i havent seen anything you have posted that is productive on this topic. just total denial and negative statements. and now you are making physical threats toward people. you are an embarrassment to this board. it is obvious that people are enjoying this topic (seeing how it is either the biggest or second biggest, based on what i have read, i have not actually looked at all of them to document that (c m a))alot of people have put alot of input into this with attachments and information. what have you done (other than make yourself look like a child that didnt get his way). you have given pontiac people a black eye with this behavior. i would post a gremlin but they dont list one that would fit you.

[DaJudge]

Wow /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif you go to the gym and the stuff hits the fan. I could not read the post but wow must have been a good one. I know Don and have seen his documents with the memos. I will get them and post them for him, he was not /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif He in fact has them. He does not know Mr Daniels , his point was that he knows he has a nice Pontiac Collection and would have the means to get all the RA V goodies, there is no ill will or feelings towards him. There has been some interesting information exchanged here but the car has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt if anything most of the posts have agreed with Don that no Ram Air V GTO's were produced or shipped by the factory.

Go to Pontiac's website look under motorsports and find the motorsports history tab they have an article on the RA V called the Ram Air V the hottest Pontiac engine that almost was. It's pretty good. Best Regards

[pont406]

one of the articles of information sourced by Mrs bobcat, was from "Guide to Musclecars" Magazine August 1987 issue, i was looking thru my copy, 8 page article on the RAV motors! show pic of casting # 689539 WY, another pic show 98-V-400-RV-01, DS-1101 #1,EO-3777 both pics of same block .claims that the 400RAV passed 1970 emissions test,without a smog pump! the 303's had to have a smog pump to pass! claims insurance/warranty, plus having problems getting the RAV rods, manufacturing problems killed it's chances of being a regular production option engine.but that's not to say that something like the car in question "didn't happen" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Here's a pic of the code on Tom's bad boy motor.

[Norm reynolds]

I have a story that I find interesting on how GM is not all ways telling the truth Have any one heard of a 1954 Oldsmobile F 88 for the last 40 some years Gm has said that there was none around that were built at the factory This one car was at a display at GM motorrama and once out of the spot light it was order destroyed and never leave GM grounds This car was built on a 54 corvette frame and its body was all so made out of fiberglass but that was the only thing the shared with the vette the F88 was powered by
olds rocket 88 324 cid with a stock four barrel carb with 9.0.1 compression ratio
Rated at 250 hp It was backed with four speed Hydra Matic transmission with a 3.55 corvette rear axle it all so came with power windows Remember The 56 corvette only came with a blue flame six backed with a powerguild and did not even have roll up side windows
What happened is good old Harley Earl pulled a fast one on the GM top brass
He was ordered to dismantle the car and have it destroyed He did have it dismantle but had it crated up and it all shipped to his friend E L Cord Cord died in 1974 but his grandson remembered the stack of large wooden crates in his grandfather garage for years not knowing what was in them Cord nerved opened the all those crates
Later the still disassembled car was sold to Bill Barker but he did nothing with it so years later he sold it to Jim Brucker he also did nothing with it his son had said his father paid 1000.00 for it and remembered the large crates Six mouths after senior Brucker death The son sold the crated up car to Leo Gephart a classic car dealer for 3500.00 this is where the car finally was to take shape the story gets pretty long but the
Point is there is NO documents for this car no vin number and after 1954 supposed to never be seen again When you think of it this car for its day must have been fast as heck blowing away the corvette So I would say 95 % chance that there was never a RAV
Pontiac that was built BUT that 5% chance is who knows what some one could have done late one night have it disassemble ???? we might never know But do I feel that there are no documents to be found for the RAV just like the F88 it was not support to be Hear is the car today Bet Harley Earl must be laughing form heaven
[image] http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2mjqa/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/save0001.jpg

[L67WT1]

Thats a great story and I agree that a lot of show cars and concept vehicles were hidden and were removed in a stealthy fashion from GM. I am sure the pride of the people who put these cars together and designed them from clay to a working vehicle was behind some of that and it would be difficult to see these cars destroyed. What ever happened to the Hot Rod test car Judge with the white stripes?

With the RAV story though many people that were involved with GM or doing testing for them are still alive today ie: John Delorean, John Sawruck, George Delorean, Jim Mattison, and Jim Wangers ( I know he was the marketing guy and the competitive nature between the dealerships). Let's remember Pontiac had a new general manager at the time in 1970. That is why the 70 GTO's got sway bars on the rear Delorean did not like them. I feel that if he was still at Pontiac at the time you would have found some 70 cars that had motors shipped and slated for a dealer install like the 69 Bobcat car.

It would be excellent to get a panel discussion going at the GTO Nats in Pontiac, MI next year with some of the above people to discuss this issue. I know I would sit in on it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
With the RAV story though many people that were involved with GM or doing testing for them are still alive today ie: John Delorean, John Sawruck, George Delorean, Jim Mattison, and Jim Wangers It would be excellent to get a panel discussion going at the GTO Nats in Pontiac, MI next year with some of the above people to discuss this issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

John's son, Jeff Sawruk (who is also a Poncho NUT!), is supposed to be checking in, and Mattison has been on the board for some time. So, looks like we're well on our way!

[copo9566aa]

Total production of RA V engine = 80 (Crate Block)
This is real or a legend.???

[Steve_Hoog]

I plead the 5th.......

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
one of the articles of information sourced by Mrs bobcat, was from "Guide to Musclecars" Magazine August 1987 issue, i was looking thru my copy, 8 page article on the RAV motors! show pic of casting # 689539 WY, another pic show 98-V-400-RV-01, DS-1101 #1,EO-3777 both pics of same block .

[/ QUOTE ]

(Whomever you are?)

You need to go back and look at the photos in that article again. That is NOT the SAME block! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif One is from a ìcratedî engine (showing engine code), the other is a ìbare blockî (with no code). I think they are trying to show the difference between the two.

Here it is again...

RA V article (http://photo.starblvd.net/mrsbb/2-1-5.jpg)

[Steve_Hoog]

Rita

Since the guy I talked to hasn't shown up yet with the engine data, I've been trying to work on your part. j/k Rita don't get upset.

This interpretation was provided by my front office employees that deal with our current new vehicle paperwork from GM. The terms have changed over time, so it's not a perfect interpretation: Date Shipped=what it says. Date of Note=day floor plan begins. Date of Execution=estimated date of arrival at dealership (this is a big guess, there is nothing like it in the current invoices.) Interest From=date interest starts with a time cushion figured in for shipping and paper work.

Again this has no bearing on a car that went to engineering, which I believe everyone has agreed that it did go there. The big question from this would be did it go to engineering before or after the ship date, hopefully some one that was around back then will step up.

[pont406]

Ok, I was wrong about it being the same block,sorry, my mistake! I AM just a pontiac enthusiast, trying to maybe help solve this mystery! I have NO personal or financial interests in whether it's a "Factory built" or "dealer built" car, don't even know the owner of it! I DO know that if the 70 Judge in question turns out to be "Factory/engineering built" it would be the "ultimate GTO!" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[DaJudge]

This is getting a little old. ( Please do not take this as an insult or attack it is in a post and in black and white the tone is not intended to be hostile). No one except for maybe you and a few others believe that car went to engineering. There has been no proof to make that statement except a verbal from someone. There is no original paperwork that would suggest this. I know that before the factory to dealer invoices were put on fiche, notations would be hand written on the paper invoice if changes were made. See the PHS for a Judge convert I used to own. The date shipped was 2-05-70 and the notation was written on it 11/10/70. I am not positive what it means but it is 9 months after the car was shipped. My IV car has an option code 162 ADV.ASSN. COL, that does not mean it is something out of the ordinary. An engineering car you would think would have something I left the VIN visible so that if anyone wanted to run a PHS on it they would see this notation is real and not made up. Just like the stampings, if real proof is shown then I will be the first to admit I was wrong. I have nothing to lose or gain by this car being a factory car or dealer installed ra V car. I do like how this car went from a factory installed V car, to now an engineering installed car, what's next?

[Jeff H]

I think the "SPEC PERF" and "MEMO" on the documentation is what makes them think the car could have gone to engineering. What were those 2 items for? Headers, no sound deadening material? I would think the only acceptable documentation at this point would be for something on paper that has that specific engine production number noted as being installed in that body. With no VIN on the block and the block dated after the car's build and delivery dates, it makes it very questionable that it came in the car new from the factory or engineering.

[gtoguru]

That ADV. ASSN. COL. is a fee charged by the Dealer Advertising Association on every car sold to add to its advertising budget. I believe it was mainly done in the midwest and was probably about $10.00. Jim

[mrmuscle]

dajudge, when did you own that judge conv?? where did it go?

[Steve_Hoog]

Kinda ironic that's from Tulsa.

[Steve_Hoog]

Post a pic of this car if you can, I'd like to see it.

[DaJudge]

Here it is these are the only digital ones I have.

[DaJudge]

The convert went to a gentleman in New Jersey. Find attached the one that started it all for me and GTO Judges, before this I had a few TA's of various years this car is now in Indiana somewhere. This one was hard to sell I owned it for 15 years. That is the dealership it was purchased from when new. I know this is off topic just thought you would like to see it.

[Steve_Hoog]

Sweet, the 69 is more my style!!! Is that the original yellow?

How long has the green 70 been gone from Tulsa area?

[MrsBillyBobcat]

Nice Judge Mike! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

WOW! I don't think I have ever seen one in Mayfair Maize. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jeff H]

That 69 Judge looks great. I don't think I've ever seen one that color before. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[DaJudge]

That's the original color. It's 4 speed 3:55 posi. The vin is 242379P304126.

[Steve_Hoog]

Very nice Judge!!!

[gtoguru]

There was a mayfair maize 69 Judge running around here many years ago. It was painted carousel red though. I ended up buying the WS engine out of it after the owner spun a bearing and had another engine installed. I never could buy the car and it has since disappeared. Jim

[Steve_Hoog]

Joe C posted a piece on a July 69 Super Stock way back, I got my copy today from Ebay. Very interesting article. I do not get the overall impression that it was an engineering car, but they do ever so gently refer to it that way.

There are three names mentioned: Milt Schornack, Dave Warren, and Brian Ballish. I've seen the Milt guys name in magazines before, or somewhere. Would be sweet if any of these guys were still around and could elaborate on the orange 69 Judge.

[tjs44]

Milt is makeing a clone of the original car right now.Tom

[Steve_Hoog]

Tom, anyway to get Milt's two cents on it?

I finally talked to that guy you referred me to on the RAV motors, I liked him alot. He said that he would run some numbers to us at some point. Thanks again, Tom.

[tjs44]

search his name on yahoo,remember his age,like ALL the other 60s "legends"LOL

[JLP]

Jeffh has 4 articles. I believe the one you mentioned (Rodder and Super Stock) is the one you are talking about. One is Cars Mag, An unknown Mag.with Alex Walordy (I think an ex Pontiac emp) and one by Phase III (Baldwin Motion) article. Each one has a different perspective but some use similar pictures. Several show complete engines and some installed. Good for discussion.

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Tom, anyway to get Milt's two cents on it?



[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,

In a way, you already have, since the information that Bill has posted on here about that car came from Milt Schornack, Dave Warren, &amp; Jim Wangers (Bill is friends with all of them and has been for over 20 years). They told him that story years ago, and it has not changed since.

In regards to Miltís GTO; it is a brown í69 GTO that he worked on when he owned his own speed shop after his Royal Pontiac days. He purchased the car a couple of years ago from the original customer who has had the car all this time.

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PS~ I do not understand what this has to do with the '70 Judge in question /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Rita

This car is orange, and only the editor talked about it. There was no comentary from Milt or the others. I would very much like to here about him in general, and that particular car. But I'm on time out from all this tonight..... about to watch a movie with MrsSteved. I took a pic just a few seconds ago so you all can see who your in discussion with. Everyone have a great night!!!

Steve and Shaunna

[mrmuscle]

steve, nice pic. now don can print a copy off and hang it on his wall so he will know who to look for now. lol /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Rita

This car is orange, and only the editor talked about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that Steve /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif. I read that article when this last came up in discussion. That Orange Judge, which was owned by Jess Jesson of Colonial Pontiac, actually had a RAM AIR III in it. That shot was taken at the Florida test session for "press purposes" only. This data has been confirmed by both Milt Schornack and Jim Wangers (who were both there). Look at the bottom of the photo. It states "Photos by GM Photographic", which means it was given to the magazine to use. As he stated previously, Bill has original photos of that car with and without various signs from that test session.

BTW...I'm glad to see that you do "have a life" afterall. I was starting to worry. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[55chevy]

sorry... but..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[copo9566aa]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[55chevy]

Oh yeah!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Best line of that movie was when GTO driver got his first ride in that 55 Chevy and all he could say was "Holy $hiiiit... What are you trying to do? blow my mind?" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[gtoguru]

We raced with Milt at the GTO Nats this summer. He had the brown RAV car there. Also sat in on a presentation he had. He had slides from the old days at Royal. A really informative and entertaining presentation he put on. Here is his info off his business card:

www.miltschornack.com (http://www.miltschornack.com) 586-468-3684 2-7PM

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]

Again this has no bearing on a car that went to engineering, which I believe everyone has agreed that it did go there.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way Steve...Exactly, WHO is "everyone"? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

"Inquiring minds would like to know!"

[Steve_Hoog]

Jim

Cool page!!! I love that brown 69, very nice set up.

Thanks,

Steve

[Steve_Hoog]

Rita

It's a holiday weekend, you can take a break from all this if you like.

Sweet dreams,

Steve

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm on time out from all this tonight.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,

I thought you were on a "time out" tonight? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[supcarbob]

I have talked to Jim Wangers and Milt Schornack about that orange Judge with white interior. They both at different times and locations told me that the car was actually the Limelight Green performance brochure,postcard and dealer wall poster GTO that after that use was repainted orange and set up as a Judge. That car had a Ram Air IV originally.
I have left a message with Milt and I plan on having him read all this.

[Steve_Hoog]

Sweet.

Rita she let me out of time out after I gave her a kiss.

[Steve_Hoog]

Bob if your talking about the limelight green 69 that a 8X10 came with the invoice way back when you still called GM for a copy. The date on the 8X10 is 9/17/68, so the time frame could work out. The green one has power antenna, hideaways, and remote mirror. The Judge in Super Stock, the only one of the three you can make out is the mirror. The other thing, the Judge has the rear quarter moldings which was a later option I believe. You can't tell for sure, but the green GTO doesn't appear to have them.

On the Judge, the frame under the rocker panel looks like 30 years of weathering. That's kinda strange being it would have been less than a year old at the time of the pic. I suppose it could be mud or sand, seeing they were in Florida that would make sense.

Would be interesting to know if that was the green car, non the less.

[rpoz11]

I recall a guy out here in SoCalif that did a Clone RAV 69 Trans Am; I believe it was a convert. I also recall years ago he was in contact with a gentleman in New Mexico who had some of these original RAV parts. Took me for a ride in it; WOW! I was impressed and Im a BB Camaro guy! That car kicked b...! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Had an interesting phone call yesterday from the man that worked the assembly line back in 70 (the man that provided us with the perfect build sheet). He stated the engineering door was just a few feet away from the exit of the assembly line. It was his opinion that the cars that went to engineering, went there the day of the ship date on the invoice. And the most interesting thing.... there was one man that was responsible for running the cars through the assembly line that would end up going to engineering, he is still in contact with this man.

Cool huh?

He is a very nice gentleman, pleasure talking to him and hearing his stories. He hopes to talk to his engineering connection tomorrow and give us some info.

[Jeff H]

Cool. More information is always a good thing.

[Steve_Hoog]

Also got this from the person I bought a copy of the engineering book from Ebay, FYI haven't got it yet in the mail. He said that his motor is WY 648695 (he is going to get us the date code also), so combined with the article motor 689539 that leaves a 156 total count between the two if they are indeed consecutive. From what we been told in here, the production number may have only been on crate motors. Still hoping to hear from one other person that has 3 of them.

[Steve_Hoog]

The 648695 motor has A210 date code also. He also wanted me to mention it has the transfer lug, I can't tell from the pic if the 648539 motor has it but it must if cast in the same day.

So there may be at least 156 crate RAV's possibly all cast in the same day.

I just want one of them, that's not asking too much is it?

[Jeff H]

That's assuming they numbered them sequentially and didn't jump by 5 or 10. That's really interesting to find these blocks cast the same date though. Does anybody have any information on the Trans Am 303 motors and if they were dated similarly. There were obviously several complete assemblies sitting side by side in some of the pictures.

[Steve_Hoog]

Jeff

Yes I'm just assuming, it does seem like a good possibility. I too was intrigued by the casting date, I would be interested to know just how many blocks GM could cast in one day of a particular engine.

I have nothing on the 303 or 366 engines.

[tjs44]

I was told there was only 25 short deck 303 motors.My block is #14.REMEMBER there was lots of deveopmental RA V stuff,blocks,heads,cranks,intakes,dist, etc that were never done as assm. engines.

[Jeff H]

Tjs44, what is the casting date on your motor? It seems like Pontiac was more prepared to make the 303 available as production and for racers than the 400.

[tjs44]

cant get that for you right now,its in the machine shop having needle bearing cam bearings put in.When I got it,it was setup for drysump oiling.The oil pump hole was drilled and tapped and plugged.Tom

[Steve_Hoog]

One more just provided for the number crunching:

WY 689547 A210 481708

He also has more and some 428 RAV blocks he will try to get us the numbers on.

[sixtiesmuscle]

O.K., I asked Micky to check, and, here are the codes that are on the motor that came with my "Tin Indian" Judge. I am certain this motor was NOT installed at the factory, but, maybe the numbers will tell us what it IS.

9792968 K1 68 cast on back.

545687 EO-3777 #12 stamped on front.

I have my thoughts, but, I'm curious what other's info shows.

[Steve_Hoog]

Mike

My 428 is:

68 GP 428 YH 164333 Date code 1157 block 9792968

Which is the same block number.

My Uncle has a 428 I pulled out of a 69 Bonnie, it has:
YH 0403824

That was all he could get right now. He was on his way back to work and the motor is in the car.

Don't know it that helps, I'm not sure. Your "EO-3777 #12" is something I'm completely unfamiliar with.

Don't suppose it has the angled main caps? That would be a heck of a deal!!!

[sixtiesmuscle]

According to McCarthy's book the RA V 428 used the same block casting as the early 400, 9792968. I'm wondering if the 545687 could be the designation for the early 400. Again, according to the book, the 428 would also be cast 545887. I suppose typos do happen, so, I'm hoping someone has more info. If your 428 is that same casting number, does it have the extra webbing in the valley? Why does my block have both of those numbers, one cast &amp; one stamped??

[Steve_Hoog]

That is a negative on both of the blocks I have, just regular webbing.

The guy that just gave me the last RAV numbers has two of the crossed main cap 428's, he is suppose to get the numbers for us. That could shed some light.

[tjs44]

Steve,as far as I know and have seen there were no large jurnal RA V parts,the 428 block was a stock block with angled caps.ALL the TRUE RA V cranks I have seen and owned were 3in mains to go in the RA V block.I owned a Kellogs 4in stroke and do own a Kellogs 4.21 stroke.WHY use a 428 block, when they could have just used a a 455 SD block and used the same 990 forged 4 in stroke crank.I really believe the 428 block was just used to test components.I know the one that Lance had was VERY broken up.It goes along with what I said earlyer about the MANY developmental parts that were out there.Have been told there were only 3 4.21 stroke 3in main Kellogs cranks made,a few more 4in stroke.FYI,Tom

[Steve_Hoog]

Tom

This is way out of my league, I can only go on what you and Lance say. I just called it RAV to be calling it something, it's definitely not a normal motor if it has crossed mains.

The numbers Lance has may help Mike, I don't know. I'm going back through my books tonight, but I don't ever remember seeing anything like Mike posted.

Steve

[pontiac6269]

The numbers on the front of the block are part #. Numbers on the back are the casting #. 1969 numbers are, part #545686, casting #9792968. 1970 numbers are part #545686, casting #481708. The ram air experimental 428 block is cast GME 9792968 and stamped RA-38. Angle bolt428 block cast #545887 dated (F309)June 30, 1969. All Ram Air V blocks would have a distributor hole that is larger then all other Pontiac blocks.

[tjs44]

Super duty 455 blocks have the larger dist hole also.FYI,Tom

[Steve_Hoog]

Totally my bad on Lance's motors, he did say that he let go of the torn up block. That may have been the 428. His others are 400's.

Mike... I am on page 214 of McCarthy's Performance book. There is a 400 block he talks about with "545686". Very close indeed. I think some of the info that pontiac6269 guy posted may be right off this page.

My question would be, do the production numbers run sequential on your block like the WY's I've been getting info on. Difference may just be the year usage intended.

[sixtiesmuscle]

Thanks, but, still no info on a part number 545687. Any idea what that is? There are no other numbers on this block.

[JLP]

Can't help on the # you gave. However, most of the other numbers are here. It is regarded as a good web site for pontiac number crunching info. It has the 2 letter codes for the RA V but no casting #'s.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
http://www.wallaceracing.com/cgi-bin/engine3.cgi

[Steve_Hoog]

Tom

Just had a guy email me that has 2 blocks stamped "DS 1941A". That sound like an over the counter bare block V?

[tjs44]

dont know,DS is USUALLY developmental,NOT production.

[Rick]

I've followed this thread on and off,and i think earlier someone was trying to determine if a car was an engineering car or not.

I have a 67 Fitch Firebird that was an engineering exercise car and on the billing history card the
'charge to' dealer is Pontiac, code 35-997. Also The broadcast sheet found in the car says "ship to Fitch".

Don't know if you guys looked in these places yet, but might be worth a look if you haven't.

[Steve_Hoog]

Rick

The basis of thought for an engineering trip started with Bill Knafel's story. The "memo" was the second reason, via the way early SD cars were handled as I have read in Pete M's book. Since there is a lack of access to whatever records there may have been at GM about cars that got such a special trip, I've found it more interesting to crunch some numbers on the RAV motors.

I would like to hear more about your Bird, can you share?

[Rick]

Steved,
The car was in Aug 99 High Performance Pontiac &amp; Mar 95 of Pontiac Enthusiast. If you do a search on this site in the General Discusion form and search all for time frame it was talked about. Type Fitch Firebird for search words.

Basically Pontiac gave road racer John Fitch my car and one other to play with. The car looks like a big AMX from the side. He made quite a few mods. If you an't find the previous posts from this site let me know.

Rick

[Steve_Hoog]

I looked for both issues, either I used them to start a fire or I never had them. I found Aug for every year but 99 and 00. Hmm.

Is the build sheet you found a public thing?

While looking back through, I've noticed Tom has been talked about in several of the old magazines. Via his RAV projects.

[Rick]

The build/broadcast sheet is what is sometimes found in the car when you take them apart. Vette guys call them tank sheets because on a Vette there commonly found between the gas tank &amp; trunk floor.

The sheets were left behind from the assembly line workers it tells them which parts to put on the car such as shocks, guages, springs and special intructions etc. In the Firebirds I've found them under carpets, in the springs of the seats and also behind door panels.

The Billing history I got from PHS. I'm going to try to attach part of the 1st page of the HPP article.

[Steve_Hoog]

Oh yeah I think I remember seeing this car before, very interesting. Does it have any go fast goodies under the hood?

What I meant by public, is are you willing to share the build sheet?

There is nothing sweeter than finding one on a car!!!

[Steve_Hoog]

Intake pic....

[tjs44]

that intake looks like a RA V tunnel ram,cant tell ifs it is real or made from a ford.

[Steve_Hoog]

My guess is real from all the other pictures in that link I sent you, but I realize you can't see enough of the intake. I figured you were fimiliar with the dealership and what they may or may not of had.

[DaJudge]

Steved if you were banking on the memo and special equip codes on the PHS to make that car a factory / engineering RA V car this PHS from GTODON pretty much negates that. This car was a RA IV Judge. I have also done my own research and contacted GM and spoke to a person who works in GM archives the engineering dept was no where near the assembly line and they also stated that all legacy documentation is now in the hands of PHS, they only have pictures for historical purposes. Are you the same guy who has been advertising in the Goat Finder about the same topic for some time now? I really believe in my heart that this whole RA V hype job is all about the money.

Now who is null and void? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

You have got to be kidding me!!! Let it go.....

[DaJudge]

Hey Steved you want me to let it go? Look back at page 9 post # 59392 just recently you stated that you spoke to a gentlemen "who used to run cars through the assembly line that would end up in engineering only a few feet away." You don't like to be corrected when you are caught. I am just pointing this out so people do not mistake you for the expert that you think you are.

[Steve_Hoog]

I'm sorry, but your not making any sense.

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but your not making any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's making perfect sense to me!

Rita /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[GTO_DON]

Gentlemen IM BACK!!!! Welcome to my underground lair. BUT LOOK WHAT YOU DID TO MR. BIGGLESWORTH!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif