1966 GTO 421??

[rafbody]

I have seen a 1966 GTO at some car shows and it has a 421 cu. inch engine with the tri power set up on it and the guy claims that it is original. Did they ever put 421's in a GTO and did they ever put the tri power on a 421? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Russ

[budnate]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=6422&item=244 3979238

Check this out, Bud.

[gtomike1967]

Thats a pretty loaded question /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
The RAV thread is a very long thread trying to prove or disprove that a RAV came from the factory.
I think that the general feeling is that no 421 was ever put in a GTO at the factory.
You could get Ace Wilsons Pontiac to install a 421 in your GTO. Possibly thats what happened with this GTO.
To answer your other question...Yes 421s could come with a tri-power.

Mike

[tjs44]

the only factory installed 421 "small" cars were the factory 63 421SD cars.

[442w30]

Think of it this way - if you saw a '67 Chevelle and the owner claimed it had a factory 427, would you be suspicious?

[rafbody]

I was always suspicious about the car. This guy has a display he sets in front of the car detailing the options as though it is factory equipment. The next time I see it I will pay closer attention to it and see what, if any documentation he has. A friend of mine has a '64 and a '67 GTO and he was questioning me about it so I posted it here. I don't know that much about Pontiacs.

Russ

[442w30]

There is a thing called PHS, which stands for Pontiac Historical Services. They will send you an invoice of your car.

Next time you see the guy at a show, ask him if he has the factory invoice proving his car is a 421.

As men have fragile egos, at this point you will be on your own. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[rafbody]

I learned my lesson on egos when I questioned a guy about his '69 Z/28 and he got mad and said it is a z/28 with the 302. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gifIt is an X-44 car, column shift auto and factory a/c. I left him alone after that.

Russ

[442w30]

I've had a few run-ins too. Was never questioning the legitimacy of their cars. Just Baby Boomers gone wild. But sometimes people don't know any better.

[A100]

I'm pretty sure Royal Pontiac was doing 421 conversions on GTO's by then... but to the best of my (limited) knowledge there were no factory 66' 421 GTO's made

[Norm reynolds]

There was one car that did come from the factory Jim wagners had the 421 put in a GTO for a test car for car & driver magazine at the time they were told it had a 389 in it Jim wanted to really impress the magazine guys and I guess to help sell more cars
It was not till many years later that Jim confessed that car never had a 389 but a 421 and that he pulled one over on car & driver magazine guys

[442w30]

That car did not come with a 421. It was a transplant.

[Chevy454]

Diego:

Did you get to hear John Sawruk speak in Stanton at the PS event? Was WAY COOL. If I'm not mistaken, I believe he had a couple of stories about the 421 swap fiasco.

[pontiac6269]

The Car & Driver GTOs were 64s when Pontiac 1st came out with them. They had 2, a red one and a blue one. They were both ringer cars for the press built by Royal Pontiac. Someone owns the red one, think the blue one got destroyed, someone made a clone of the blue one.

[442w30]

Hey Rob! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I remember him speaking 2 races ago - is that the one?

However, my memory of those engagements are always a little foggy. Sometimes I have poor memory, other times it's a bit better.

[Chevy454]

Nah, it was this past race. Honesty, I wasn't interested when I heard what the topic was gonna be, but it turned out to be VERY interesting.

[442w30]

So fra, everyone I can think of was interesting.

One of the few things I remember from the recent years' ones was the street race Mattison talked about that happened on 696.

[Bobcat]

PMD did not officially put 421's in GTO's for public consumption. There wer some GTO's bulit with 421 from the factory, BUT and that is a BIG BUT, the owners rearly know it. If the factory was short on 389's a it was not uncommon to put a 326 or 421 in to a car slated for some other engins. Ther was NO way the line was going to be stopped for somthing like this. It was common that an engine slated for installation would be pulled from the line by engineering just to test it for tollerances. This would disrupt the sequence for a few cars. Yes, there was a 1966 421 tri power. There were also dealerships that installed 421's as a commom practice. Royal Pontiac, MI, Packer Pontiac MI and FL and Myrtl Motors NY, Gay Pontiac TX, Colony Pontiac FL and others. Hope this helps

[copo9566aa]

[ QUOTE ]
If the factory was short on 389's a it was not uncommon to put a 326 or 421 in to a car slated for some other engins. Ther was NO way the line was going to be stopped for somthing like this. It was common that an engine slated for installation would be pulled from the line by engineering just to test it for tollerances.

[/ QUOTE ] this is not cool for an all numbers match 389 GTO /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[sixtiesmuscle]

Are you saying that the factory would install an engine that had the wrong vin stamped on it? If they just went down the line with engines, how many could be misinstalled?? Wouldn't this be fraud?

[442w30]

I think it's an old wive's tale. Using that logic, there's some 326 Tempest out there with a 421.

[sixtiesmuscle]

I agree, but, it could account for those "freaks' we used to have running around. That is, other than Wanger's "demos". I'm curious to hear what sources Bobcat has for this assertion.

[442w30]

I hear ya, but what freaks do you talk about? Cars that were running faster than they should?

Speaking of freaks, we're all hung up on 421 cars. It'd be cool to find a 428HO GTO. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[sixtiesmuscle]

In our area,"Freaks" were the cars we KNEW were as delivered, but, were significantly quicker than most of that same car. I'd still take a 421 HO over a 428 HO. Just my preference of course.

[supergonzo]

There were no 421 GTO's produced(other than the 2 in the 64' article), that "ran out of engines" stuff is nonsense. And I'm a pontiac guy. Jim Wangers has already answered this question several times at shows, I have asked him directly. His response is NO.

Myrtle motors here in NY would swap 428's into 68 and later GTO's and provide RAIV heads,intakes,cams and exhaust as part of a kit that they sold and advertised in car magazines. They claimed to get 13 flat ET's on stock tires. How many swaps they did is a mystery. But they were not from the factory that way.
-------------------------------
By the way the other manufacturers ALL supplied super-tuned cars for road tests.
Wouldn't You?

[Bobcat]

You do realize that Jim Wangers' took a hard line that "NO" 421's where put into GTO's at the Factory. It wasn't until a couple of years ago that Jim Wangers admitted that the two '64 C & D cars had 421's. In 1962 there were 6 1962 Tempests with 421's taken to Daytona,one black and five white, one year before the official 421 SD Tempest program everone knows about. YES, in 1966, they built 6 421 Tempests that where also shipped to Smokey Yunick and onto Daytona for testing. These types of cars were/are known as engineering mules. They were built without titles. Even today mules are built without VIN numbers than, supposed to be, crushed. This is do to lawsuites and liablities.These are a few of the ones I know of. There are many more. NEVER SAY NEVER. These cars do not generate paper work for the historic services. GM can't afford to admit they built something that does not comply with the AMA papers they submit to the government . These cars are not for public consumption. Official line will aways be "Didn't happened" I'm sure you have heard of the Delorean's "What If Sessions". Delorean himself drove around a '67 Firebird convertible with OHC 6 with side draft webbers. Pontiac didn't offer it. Does it mean it wasn't built either because Pontiac Historic Services doesn't have the paper work. At least Jack "Doc" Watson finally admited that all of the '68 and '69 Hurst Olds' had factory installed 455's. For years people beleived that Hurst or Demmer Olds did the swaps. Chevy put 427's in Nova' and Camaro's. What, Pontiac didn't have the ability? THINK ABOUT IT Pontiac invented the concept.

[Bobcat]

I seem to remember Twelve (12), Six (6) LeMans coupe and six(6) Tempest wagons with factory 421's and aluminum front ends in the 1963 Super Duty program. The LeMans cuopes"; Ray Nichels/Paul Goldsmith Daytona coupe, Stan Long Pontiac, Superior Pontiac, (2)Mickey Thompson, George Delorean. wagon's:Royal had a Tempest Wagon, As did Anderson Pontiac, Hodges Pontiac, Van Winkle Pontiac, Union Park and Arnie Beswick. This not including the 6 421 Tempests built by the factory in 1962 for Daytona testing.

[Bobcat]

In 1966 the vin was not stamped into the block. The block number was a unit number that would only be on the paper work. Numbers matching was not an issue at the factory. The date codes are within an exceptable span with most purists. If you look your engine over the heads are not nessarily the same date and time and rarely is the head the same as the block date. The assemblers aren't going to take the time to check date codes or casting #'s. '66 Cars may have
one 092 head and one 093. What than? Tell me would you have noticed? I doubt it. If you had an early or late car you got a hadge podge of parts. They used whatever was in the bin and fit was used.

[Bobcat]

Some one wanted my credentials. I'll just scratch the surface.The Source of most of my information. Is I was there for much of it. Family member in engineering depart in '50's through '80's. Family had scrap contracts for GM. Supplied cold roll steel for prototype, production runs and spot buys. Family owned several auto parts stores and machine shops in Detroit area. Some of the employees went on to engineering and suppler companies. Friend was Pontiac assistant line distrbution manager. '66 though 1969 than went onto engineering dept.I keep in touch with a few of them. Freinds worked You'll find me in the credit's of The History Channels "history of the Firbird", The BBC's Jermey Clarkston's "Detroit The Auto Industry", SpeedChannels "MuscleCar" "The Hurst Corporation", I'm in the first paragraph of the "Introduction" of Jim Wangers book glory days. Several past and current pateints are the people you are discussing. From days of old. President Royal Pontiac Club of America. www.Royalpontiac.org (http://www.Royalpontiac.org), I grew with friends who's fathers where head engineers from different departments and divisions. Family memmber went to Northwood Institute with Roger Smith's daughter Tory and several other dealer and manufacturing executives kids. Do I pass the audition.

[Steve_Hoog]

WOW!!! I'm impressed... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[SamLBInj]

Do you know Barb Stempel? we lived together back in the early 80's. She knows a thing or two about GM cars /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif
Sam /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Bobcat]

Apparently you are to young or don't recall the law suites against GM in the '70's when it was found out that they had installed Chevy engines in Oldsmobiles. This is why GM now has only has Corporate engines and a central Division called POWERTRAIN.

[sixtiesmuscle]

Welcome "Bobcat". I only WISH I were too young, and yes, I do recall the Chevy-Olds issue. That still doesn't resolve a question of engines with incorrect VINs being put into cars. Mistakes probably happened, but, there was a post that indicated it was routine to pull engines off the line, and, just go to "the next" one in line. There must have been some precedure to assure that every subsequent car that day didn't receive an engine meant for another car. Maybe you can enlighten us on what they did when an engine was pulled for engineering to test.

[Steve_Hoog]

Mike

I'm not sure of the year, was it 67 or 68 that they started putting the VIN on the blocks?

Steve

[gtomike1967]

1968

Mike

[copo9566aa]

Welcome Bobcat /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif
Cool and funny the world of Pontiac and Royal Bobcat /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Very special history /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[DaJudge]

Good info on both posts Bobcat. The official stance from the factory and publications are that no 421's or 428's were factory installed. Special dealers like Royal etc. installed these engines for customers as an upgrade or upcharge. Unless it can be substantially documented as such you would have to agree that a GTO with this conversion would be an incorrect restoration. I disagree with your expanation of non-matching vin numbers in cars and that if one was off the whole line would suffer. One engine may be outfitted for A/C and power steering etc for a vehicle. If the next vehicle in line had or was missing these options the accessory mounting brackets are different as are balancer pulleys and water pump pulleys. Pictures that I have seen show all accessories on the engine before installation into the chassis. The workers would create bigger problems for themselves and really slow down production if they followed your explanation. My friend owned a 70 RA III Judge that was an original paint car and never touched a real survivor by the strictest definition of the term. It had three build sheets and only three owners. The car was ordered as a RA IV but came through as a III. The last digit was a 5 like a IV block should be but was coded a RA III WS block. The VIN on the block and trans was one digit off from the VIN plate. When the VIN number on the block and trans was submitted to PHS it was run through every possible vehicle series . The VIN on the block and trans came back "does not exist" from PHS. The engine and trans never left the engine bay on this car ever. This is an example of a factory mistake that from what I am told happened more than once.

[Steve_Hoog]

OK Coppo I wanna know the story behind this gem of a photo, cough up the goods /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Pantera]

That is great I have never seen the fixture that GM used to pickup the motors. Makes it easier to understand the brackets that came on the motors from the factory. I had something totally different in my mind.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Sorry Copo... I was in such awe over the pic, I didn't scroll down to see the caption.

[Bobcat]

Since, I don't have time to recreate the three shifts and the out line of the Pontiac assembly line process. Let me Refer you to the GTOAA monthly magzine "THE LEDGEND". Which in 1993 Eric White did a complete series of approximately 8 issues, from January to December 1993. The series of articles were titled "Made In Pontiac" gives a nice general overview of the Pontiac assembly process in Pontiac. This will give an insight of the workings.
First, there were three shifts. With each shift having approximately 200 engines always on the hook. Each engine was tested then placed on one of two round tables and run for about 30 seconds with instruments. Reject and install. Good motors where hung up to besent down to plant 8. If a excessive run of bad motors or somthing happened, like an engineer needing an engine the line was NOT interuped for long. The plant was also shipping motors to other plants. and sometimes instead of a three day supply they could be as close as one to one. Unit to engine. There were approximately 500 bodies in the Fischer Body bank across the street. The plant wasn't as hung up on numbers as you are. Most of the other car company's only go by approximate date codes. But even Pontiac would pull out old stock that could have been stored several months. "House Rule was 30 - 90 days that the engine should be installed into a car.
Defective engines got into cars and where put into the "100%" or reliablity hut behind plant 9, that would fit six cars, and would have complete engine pulled and exchanged. The engines prior to 1968 were unit number NOT body VIN. numbers.
SO, NO THIS WOULD NOT DISRUPT THE ENTIRE LINE. Only a few cars in line and any car that was pulled for problems and placed in the reliablity hut. Pullys were installed down the line. Body's were dropped after the drive line, suspenion, wheels and tires where on the chassis.
Modern assembly, loads the craddle with all the pully's etc, under the already assembled unitized body. These where body and frame.
Computers are now used. Punch cards and typewriters in the dark ages.
Contact the GTOAA and get a copy of Eric White's series. Be informed. Some of the plants are giving tours, take one.

[Bobcat]

I forgot to answer your important question. I have no idea where you saw brackets and VIN's on enigines in the pre computer age. But the Pontiac plant used a guy by the name of Emanuel Labor. He would wait until the already installed drive train suspension etc. was about to be mated to the now desending body shell. ON the body cowl would be a paper with punch marks and a VIN number. He would set his metal hand punch and first head to the left rear frame behind the wheel arch, top rail and punch in that VIN number, as his cousin Manuel Labor would punch the same VIN number into the block. There would also be a VIN punched into the firewall behind the heater box as the body was mounted onto the frame. As the unit went down the line others would read the cowl sheet, frame sheet, interior sheet trunk sheet and put the other door post or dash VIN in with star rivets and the items, OLD CONCEPT here, would be read Manual and Emanuals cousins down the line. While at their respective places they read the sheet and hand pick from the bins behind them the item/ brackets needed to hand assemble the car. Wrong engine, right VIN #. Too simple isn't it.
There is a new book at Borders and Barns and Noble in their Automotive section showing the old assembly line and just how the lines ran. Go thumb through it, it's fasinating for people who are not firmiliar with auto plant manufacturing. It will hopefully help you better understand.
I'm affraid to even tell you about the foreman that would walk cars down the line to make sure options not ordered were put on cars for VIP's or friends. Or in the case of many special Royal Pontiac cars, they made sure that sound deadening and dumb dumb where omitted. And no, these were not caught in final inspection back than. No one had time to look over the entire list. And NO Jim Mattison would NOT have record of this in his Historic Services.
The inspectors just made sure the cars ran off the line. Only one in maybe 20 cars probably more where pulled for assembly quality inspection and moved into the 100% (Reliablity) garage behind the plant. That was more for defects than to catch add ons. Like miss matched shocks. Leaky intakes, not working heaters, lights or air conditoning. The guards would just make sure that nothing loose was in the cars unless they saw hand written instuctions, like headers in trunk for the '67 Z-28's.

[Steve_Hoog]

More excellent info /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Belair62]

Great info....where the heck have you been ?

[JoeC]

Bobcat, welcome to site and thanks for the informative post.
You mention two of my favorite hot rodders Bunkie Knudson and Smokey Yunick.
That was some team. A top mechanic and a top executive. When they worked on Hudsons in the 50ís Hudson was winning races, they worked on Pontiacs late 50ís early 60ís and the black/gold Pontiacs were winning races, they worked together at Chevy 62-68 and did some great stuff with black/gold cars there.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif