Royal info wanted

[skierkaj]

Through what years did Royal Pontiac tune and deliver special packages to Pontiacs? Does anyone have any pics of the span of years?

[442w30]

I know 1969 was the last year. The first? Can't recall, but probably 1963 or so.

[supcarbob]

The first 'Bobcat' package was marketed in 1962 by Royal Pontiac. The last year was 1969 when the dealership closed. George Delorean who owned 'Leader Automotive' purchased the 'Royal Racing Team' membership from Royal and that didn't last long. Milt Schornack also did ' Bobcat' packages through his own company ' Royal Automotive' for a couple of years after that.

[Bobcat]

Jim Wangers, Frank Rediker, Win Brown and Dick Jesse put the Bobcat Package together in 1961. The 1961 Bobcat Catalina had the letters on the back tail light panel spell out Bobcat using the letters from Catalina and Bonnieville. The years where 1961 till the dealership was sold in April/May 1969. A Bobcat could be anything from a tune up to a full blue printed motor and a custom paint job on the car.

[jfkheat]

Just got a Pontiac book in today that has several pages on the early Royal cars. The book is MUSCLE - PONTIACS! THE YEARS OF EXCITEMENT. Below is the first few papagraphs from the article titled WANGER'S WINGED WONDERS: A PICTORIAL OF THE ROYAL PONTIAC. There are several pages of black and white pictures of some of their race cars. There are also inserts from some of their brochures. Their first race car was a 1959. For you GTO and Judge fans, this book has about 20 pages on the GTO and Judges.
James

Royal Pontiac, Royal Oak Michigan, began the unofficial Pontiac racing outlet in the early 1960s and, from time to time, they issued racing catalouges of their own which are exceedingly rare today.
"Operation Hot Chief," was the project of Asa (Ace) Wilson, Jr., a Pontiac dealer and hot-rodder enthusiast. Wilson got into the business of producing drag strip Pontiacs shortly after he entered a car in the Daytona, Florida races.The fame of the Royal Pontiacs spread for their superior ability to engineer acceleration into a factory built car with factory built parts. The only nonfactory equipment installed on the Royal Pontiacs were tachometers, special water and oil temperature gauges and lake pipes. Wilson'e cars were extremely successful at the Detroit Dragway during the regular season in 1960. He exploited their fame to attract a great many enthusiasts to his showroom.
There was no great secret to the success of the Hot Cheif; it was simply a car that had been equipped and prepared correctly for its job. The 365 HO engine was an example. It was not a factory-installed item but, rather, factory authorised. Essentially, it was the Tri-Power with particular dealer options, including a special cam, solid lifters, heavier valve springs, larger intake valves, revised combustion chambers, chambers in the cylinder bores under the intake valves and a four-bolt main bearing caps.
Royal Pontiac was still hard at work producing racing Pontiacs up to 1963. In that year, Pontiac was reigning stock car champion. In January, 1963, however, GM ordered a ban on supplting help to racing enthusiasts and "outlaw" dealers, including Royal Pontiac. Basically, that was the end of the great racing Pontiacs. They still won the Grand Nationals but, it was only a matter of time.

[copo9566aa]

Thanks
Hot Chief no 1 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[copo9566aa]

It's me or this Pontiac "Hot Chief" racing on the 1/4 with the window sticker /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Bobcat]

Well your story is pretty close. A few corrections are in order. 1) There were two Ace's Jr. and Sr. 2) Sr. bought the dealership to give Jr. something to do. 3) Jim Wangers sold an idea to Estes and Delorean on a high perforamce dealership program. He was given the OK to find just one to start. Packer Ponttiac was very interested. But Bill Packer Jr. was leaving town for the weekend and would get back with Jim on Monday. While heaading back to his office Jim made one more stop. Royal Pontiac. Ace Jr. loved the idea and woulid not let Jim leave until a deal was set in stone.Side note Ace Sr hated it. Deal made. Bill Packer was more than a little upset. Packer after all was one of Pontiac's largest dealers with three stores. Detroit, Flint and Miami, FL. 4) The Royal racing program began with the '59 Catalina which was set up as a test bed. It had all of the latest including an Isky cam with a Pontiac part number. Unfortunately, while waiting in the pits at Detroit Dragway for the begining of the races, Bill Sidwell, against Jim Wangers' wishs took the Royal car out onto Dix Hwy with a couple of freinds and rolled the car. Bill was removed form the driving chores. The car was repaired but not until the 1960 race season. For 1960 Royal had three cars. 2 '60's, one automantic driven by Winston "Win" Brown and the stick car driven by Jim Wangers. A Pete Seaton entry racing through Royal was also in the finals. The Racing proram was Pontiac back door to the public. 5)As for all factory only parts that's not true. Inital Royal sold Isky cams with Pontiac part numbers. Royal Pontiac published three "Royal Story" parts books. 1962, 1963 and 1968. These where given out at Royals open houses. 2) Royal began marketing a Bobcat Kit in and a Bobcat dealer built car in 1961. Frank Rediker, while not an employee of the Dealership, had developed the kit and was the head mechanic on the race team. 6) the reason the cars had window stickers on the was because they were later sold as used cars. The cars however had the original engines removed and placed on a pallet and a rac motor was put into the car. At the end of the season the paint was stripped and repainted and the race motors pulled and the original motor replaced in the car. Less hassel and warranty issues. That's why it's hard to varify a Royal car. 7) Royal was hardly an outlaw dealership. They prepared almost all of the magazine Pontiac test cars so as not to embarrass the division with the cars performance. YES, the cars were more than plain jean stockers. Remember this was the back door to the public. Bottom line was to sell cars at all costs.8) A few Royal affiliates would not only hit the local tracks. They were constantly doing "market research" on the streets of Detroit. Royal was only a few blocks off Woodward Ave. Jim Wangers was always on hand with more than a few "hot" Pontiacs. 9) Royal formed a mail order business called the "Royal Racing Team" in 1962/1963. You could join for a couple of bucks and get discounts on Royal Pontiac parts. The mail order business hit it's peak in 1966 with the "Geeto Tiger" program. Over 5,000 members by the time the dealership was sold in 1969. The story goes alot deeper than the story book you just bought. Unfortunately there is a past, glorified porter, from Royal that is constantly resurfacing. I read he calims to have invented Royal and the Ram Air program. This guy wasn't even a line mechanic. Whenever Royal sent him out with another Royal Employee or even "Doc" Watson, this guy couldn't even post as fast a time. The magazines bare this out. The Royal Story keeps getting better and better. There was always a close working relationship with Royal Pontiac and the corp. while Knudson, Estes, Delorean and Wangers where there. Knudson went onto Ford and took his freinds and business partners, Mickey Thompson and Smokey Yunick with him. Delorean went on to Chevrolet and Wangers went onto Hurst than his to own Chevy Dealership in Wisconsin. Sad, very sad.

[jfkheat]

What I posted was quoted word for word from the book I have. I am not familar with the Royal race history. I was just trying to supply what little info I had for someone that asked for Royal info. I will try to scan some pages from the book when I get a chance. All the pictures look like they pages from the brochures.
James

[Belair62]

Sounds like you were somewhat close to this action Bobcat...

[Bobcat]

Sorry, I get a little carried away, too much information,LOL

[Belair62]

I like reading it....how dod you gather this type of info hmmm ?

[Bobcat]

Belair62, TIme machine. Move to Detroit and relive my life. LOL

[Bobcat]

Hey, Belair62, I had a 61 Impala Convert Red white top 283 170hp Powerglide, in high school. It was orginally my mothers car. Just before I turned 16 they gave it to me. The rear end was starting to howl. Since we owned a scrap yard we had a '63 Biscayne 2 dr sedan with a 4:11 posi. Swapped the whole pig into the '61. The day I turn 16 I had the car parked in front of the house and some drunks in a pick up slamed into the frontend. My parents saw it, I slept through it. Woke up next day walked around the backend went to open the drivers door and it was stuck. I stepped back and saw my front end was now customized.
Well, at one of my uncles yards, down from ours, they had a '61 BelAir with a good front clip. You'll never guess. The front fenders where FIBERGLASS. By the time the car came back from the body shop we had a 1960 Impala come in with a 348. I couldn't pass it up. So now I had a 348, 4:11 Covertible that got it's rearend kicked everytime I went up against one of those new 1967 Camaro SS 350. Oh, well.life is good. LOL

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
Belair62, TIme machine. Move to Detroit and relive my life. LOL

[/ QUOTE ] Thanks but you sound older than Sixtiesmuscle !!!....Glass fenders on a 61 Belair? hmmmm

[Bobcat]

Yes, fiberglass. Back than we didn't have cheap Chinese produced sheet metal replacement panels. The new GM parts where very expensive compaired to the value of the car. It was comon to have aftermarket fiberglass replacement fenders becuse it was cheap.

[GOAT72]

Bobcat,
How can you refer to Mr. Schornack as a "glorified porter" and that he "claims to have invented Royal"?

In Steve Stratham's book, "GTO: The Great One" Schornack claims he wasn't even HIRED by Dick Jesse at Royal until 1963. He states that he beat the Royal cars at Detroit Dragway with his 1959 Catalina, and so an impressed Jesse offered him a job at Royal.
How could Schornack NOT even be a line mechanic at Royal when he was HIRED by performance manager Dick Jesse himself and worked 6-days a week doing Bobcat conversions?

Also, Schornack explains his involvement in the testing of the RA V in Florida -- with Mr. Wangers, among others. If Shornack was such a poor racer, then why was he even IN the '69 GTO? There are photos of him in Statham's book racing the crystal turquoise '69 GTO with the RA IV -- which they later installed a Ram Air V into. Who put the RA V into the car... Mr. Wangers... or Schornack.

I am not biased in your Wangers Vs. Schornack mud-throw. I think BOTH men made their own contributions toward the legacy, but to completely denounce Schornack's involvement is wrong.
Please feel free to access miltschornack.com and click on his RA V page-- Schornack bought one of the factory RA Vs.
How'd he pull THAT deal off with no involement with PMD?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I am sure you'll have the fortitude to answer: Where did you get this information from? Were you THERE? Did you know George DeLorean? Schornack? The Wilsons? Dick Jesse?

If so, this would put you in the late 60s-early 70's age-bracket, which I don't think is the case.

Finally, I have located a guy who is providing me with photocopies of dozens of old magazine articles concerning Schornack; you have piqued my interest with your debasing attitude toward this individual.

Thanks for any help you can provide with your answer.

~GOAT72
(newbie)

Bobcat said:
<i>Unfortunately there is a past, glorified porter, from Royal that is constantly resurfacing. I read he calims to have invented Royal and the Ram Air program. This guy wasn't even a line mechanic. Whenever Royal sent him out with another Royal Employee or even "Doc" Watson, this guy couldn't even post as fast a time. The magazines bare this out. The Royal Story keeps getting better and better.</i>

[JLP]

The pics I sent Jeffh here contain pics of Milt driving the RA V car and there are other pics of him around/working on the car. Can't seem to shrink them. I can e-mail them or contact Jeffh on this site. Here is pix of '69 FB he was driving for Royal also. Beautiful Orange/white car. Black & white only photos.

[JLP]

Same car front view.

[Steve_Hoog]

JLP

Nice, don't think I've ever seen that car. Love the burn off, very cool. Too bad they aren't in color, I bet that was a sharp looking car.

[Bobcat]

In answeer to your questions. It was pretty hard for Dick to hire anyone. He was not the GM. McQueen was. Nor was Dick the new car manager. Dick Was the High performance salesman. Chuck Broomfield was the only mechinic initially doing the Bobcat conversions. Than later came Dave and Sid Warren. I know you have no idea how small Royal was in comparison to todays dealerships. YES I DID KNOW AND DO KNOW THESE gentleman.es I was around the dealership. Since you like books, I'm sure you most own Jim Wangers Book "Glory Days." Turn to the Introduction chapter and read the introdution paragraph. Find my name? Next time you watch Speed Channel's "MuscleCars" Hurst segment you'll find my name in the credits. If you get the History Channel segment "History of the Automobile, The Firebird" My family is in it and I am in the credits. I'm sure you don't however get the BBC's Jeremy Clarkston's show I'm in his film and credits for the "Deroit's Auto Industry." SO,NO MY KNOWLEDGE IS NOT BASED ON SOME FANTISY BOOK YOU READ. The books you read did not interview Dick Jesse, he's been dead a good 20 years. Ace Jr. since about 1989 Ace Sr. about 10 years. Yes, I do also Know Mac McKellar, Jack "Doc" Watson, John Sawruk and JIm Mattison to name a few who you may have heard of. Mine is not opion but based on first hand knowledge. You can read more of my resume on other posting.

[Bobcat]

Maybe you would have to had Milt steal an engine from you or one of your friends over the years, to understand. Look up a surgeon in FL, Bobby Gingle, or in Detroit and man who owns a Steel processing plant, James Gannes. These two would love to tell you about Milt.
Installing and removal of an engine at the drag strip hardly constitutes engineering involvement. Particulary when you spin a bearing after 5 runs and are told NOT to open it up. Just ship it back to PMD untouched.
As for Milt's resent Brown Ram Air V. That is another in a long line of Milts dellusions. Jim Wangers bought that brown car just after leaving the ad agency in April 1969. It was a Ram Air IV car. When JIm was ready to sell it he sold to one of Milts friends in Ohio. Milt convinced that gentleman to install a ram air V into the car. The car has a "Royal Automotive" painted on the lower front fender. Not Royal Pontiac. Royal Pontiac had been sold and Milt was fired from Leader Automotive, George Delorean. (Yes I know him). The gentleman had the car till a few years ago. I'm not sure if he took ill or past away, was the reason for the sale. This was not a PMD mule. This was engine swap was done by Brain Ballish at Milt's Royal Automotive. May be you should contact Brian he can tell you how the IRS came after him because MILT never paid his withholding and other taxes, along with bounced pay checks.
You have got to be kidding. Your going to read magazines as your source of info and rely on Milt's site? LOL, Why don't you just read the "STAR" or "ENQUIRE" for your daily news.

[Bobcat]

You guys are too much. Good by and have a nice fantacy life.

[GOAT72]

Bobcat attempted to spell:
""SO,NO MY KNOWLEDGE IS NOT BASED ON SOME FANTISY BOOK YOU READ. The books you read did not interview Dick Jesse, he's been dead a good 20 years. Ace Jr. since about 1989 Ace Sr. about 10 years. Yes, I do also Know Mac McKellar, Jack "Doc" Watson, John Sawruk and JIm Mattison to name a few who you may have heard of. Mine is not opion but based on first hand knowledge.">>

*********** So Steve Statham wrote a "fantasy book" and because you're a chiropractor this makes YOU the expert that we all should listen to? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Oh, and Tom DeMauro at HPP... he's lying too?
Is his book also a "fantasy"?

Question: Where you ever removed (a.k.a. booted) from a local Pontiac club that you were involved in? Do you hold any animosity toward its members? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Just checkin' so we all know where you're coming from!
Thanks!
G72

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]

Installing and removal of an engine at the drag strip hardly constitutes engineering involvement. Particulary when you spin a bearing after 5 runs and are told NOT to open it up. Just ship it back to PMD untouched.
You have got to be kidding. Your going to read magazines as your source of info and rely on Milt's site? LOL, Why don't you just read the "STAR" or "ENQUIRE" for your daily news.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, "Bobcat" I'm going to listen to YOU, an obviously angry (about something) man who thinks that spouting negative information concerning a man's financial problems constitutes and validates changing the course of REAL history.
Actually, I'd rather read books by Stratham, Zazarine, DeMauro and yes, even Jim Wangers, (read it twice) before listening to you.

As far as the brown Ram AIr V car is concerned: if it was in fact rebuilt as a Ram Air V, then WHY is it one of Milt's "delusions"? NOBODY could get a factory RAV, so Milt found the car and purchased it. He doesn't claim it was a "factory" RAV.

If Milt couldn't race a car, then why was he in Florida, testing the RA V? And if Milt removed a RA-V from that Florida car and installed another one which was shipped FROM PONTIAC overnight after the first one blew, then why would you say he wasn't involved in any aspect of "engineering"? It's obvious that Pontiac engineers trusted Milt enough to ship him a 2nd RAV and let him install it.
And wow... I've NEVER heard of anyone spinning a bearing after 5 runs at a dragstrip! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif
I guess Milt's the only guy who's ever done THAT! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Finally, If you have a Bobcat '68 Firebird, I'd say the odds are pur-rrrrrty decent that ol' Milt layed hands on your engine at some point. Or perhaps he even BUILT the whole thing! I mean, he DID work on the performance vehicles at Royal.

And if he DIDN'T, then Steve Stratham, Thomas DeMauro and the rest of 'em are all liars and you, Bobcat, are the new Royal Bobcat Minister of Information.

One more thing: I have met Mr. DeMauro and Milt Schornack. I had dinner with them. Milt has SEVERAL scrapbooks full of photos from his days at Royal. It's funny how a guy who "was not employed there as a mechanic" has so many stories and photos to back him up.

I think it's YOU, not us, who is living in a fantasy world, my friend.

~GOAT72

[GOAT72]

Bobcat assaulted the English language with:
"In answeer to your questions. It was pretty hard for Dick to hire anyone. He was not the GM. McQueen was. Nor was
Dick the new car manager. Dick Was the High performance salesman. Chuck Broomfield was the only mechinic initially doing the Bobcat conversions. Than later came Dave and Sid Warren. I know you have no idea how small Royal was in comparison to todays dealerships."

Bobcat,
I'm sure you were there, but you HAD to have been just a kid. (??)
Next, Dick Jesse was the performance salesman, yes, but he was INUNDATED with performance sales (over 5,000 Royal Bobcat club members when it was all said n' done)so he had to hire another mechanic to handle the load.

I quote:
""To beat one of their cars (Royal) was a high-profile victory indeed. After seeing Schornack in action, Dick Jesse, the performance salesman at Royal Pontiac, invited Milt to come and discuss job opportunities"
Page 80-81 GTO: The Great One, Steve Stratham.

Finally, in my 2+ hours of conversation with Milt, he never once had a negative word to say about Jim Wangers or anybody else. The guy is about 72 rr 73 years old now and he just likes to tell stories about his days at Royal. For you to trash the guy is absurd and inherently cruel. I'm certain you have angered folks in your past -- I certainly have. But why do you display such hatred for this guy?
It's not right to trash him on these boards and I am glad I stumbled in to defend him.

I will not help you create a Wangers v. Schornack agenda. As I said, BOTH men made tremendous contributions to the GTO legend.
I have nothing but respect for both of them.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif~GOAT72

[Steve_Hoog]

GOAT72

You need to identify yourself.

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
GOAT72

You need to identify yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]


No offense, but no... I don't, Steve.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Let me just say that I am a writer and have done considerable research on Royal, PMD (from 1962 through 1973) and the Woodward Ave subsculture that evolved from what I like to call the "factory muscle car wars."
My screenplay is currently at The William Morris Agency. (heard o' them??)

I know that everything that "Mr. Bobcat" is saying is biased toward one individual's beliefs, but out of complete respect for that individual, I refuse to lower myself to Bobcat's level.

The classic car hobby is supposed to be "fun". I have only met wonderful people who would do anything to help his/her fellow hobbyist. There is no room in this hobby, or on this forum, for someone who choses to smear others and/or air their personal and financial shortcomings in public. It's not fair.
I am glad I joined the Yenko.net boards in time to defend a nice older gentleman like Milt, who takes great joy in helping others with free advice and tons of great memories from the good ol' days!

Thanks for reading my posts!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif
~GOAT72

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you like books, I'm sure you most own Jim Wangers Book "Glory Days." Turn to the Introduction chapter and read the introdution paragraph. Find my name?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eric,
There is a quote: "My friend Eric Schiffer is driving my 1969 GTO Judge. The Michigan license plates read: Wangers."

So you were:
a) driving Jim's car
or
b) you purchased Jim's car.
Congratulations... you are now a Royal Pontiac expert!

Gimme a break... based upon your photo, you were probably approximately 8-14 years old when Royal was in its heyday.
There's no way you can be over 50. So how could you have "been there"?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
~GOAT72

[Steve_Hoog]

If you expect me to listen to anything you have to say, you have to identify yourself. I don't care if you do or not, but your opinions are meaninless without.

A few things come to mind about a person wanting to talk smack from behind a curtain.

[the70judge]

I agree with Goat72 , You cannot bad mouth someone just because of what someone has said, at one time, read the Pontiac Bible ( commonly known as ) Pontiac Musclecar Performand 1965-79 gto/firebird/superduty/ram air by Pete mcCarthy and John Angeles Its awesome and has most if not all the information other than from themselves or guys who worked and owned Royal Bobcat!! My 2 cents!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[supcarbob]

The contrabutions of Milt Schornack to Royal Pontiac are undeniable. Milt was a central figure in preparing,scheduling,managing and driving the famous 'Royal Bobcat' cars for magazine features along with drag strip engineering tests. His name and photos of him were a constant sight in the majority of these magazine tests from that era.Milt was also the driver of the C/S 1966 GTO driven in competion for Royal in 1966.
It is interesting to note that in most reference to Royal Pontiac in general non road test text that Milt was quoted or referenced for his knowledge to Pontiac cars. Milt was the contact person in the 'Royal Racing Team' ad's that appeared in that time frame. Milt also appeared in the November 1968 Car Craft magazine 'All Star Drag Racing Team' selections. He is shown in that photo with the likes of Don Garlits, Bill Jenkins,George Hurst,Dick Landy amongst others. Milt was accepting the 'Stock Sponser' award for Royal Pontiac. That was quite some company to be associated in photo with. I don't believe a 'glorified porter' would have been sent to accept such a prestigous honor for Royal.
I know Milt personally along with Jim Wangers.I consider them both good friends. I don't want to get in to a Schornack/Wangers contriversy on who did what. I can say that I have "NEVER" heard Milt say he was the originator or designer of the 'Royal Bobcat' package. He always acknowledges that his employment started after the fun began.I also have never heard him diminish any others role in Royal or try to grab more attention to what his role was.
Milt has never tried to make an 'illusion' on his brown Ram Air V GTO. He has always stated it was converted by the first owner by 'Royal Automotive' -not- 'Royal Pontiac'.If you look at the photos on Milt's website he shows a photo of the front fender highlighting 'Royal Automotive'.This car does, I believe carry significant historical importance. It was I believe sold through Royal Pontiac and it was converted early in its life to Ram Air V.
Milt has had problems in the past. Who hasn't? Those issues Milt has had to deal with privatly.
I do find it terrible that such an ignorant person would spew their dislike about someone in such a away. It is truely a classless , angry individual that would slander a mans name with out actually being involved in Royal Pontiac during the glory days and to bring third party accusations from the past to an internet public forum.
We are extremly lucky as enthusiasts to have both Milt Schornack -and- Jim Wangers with us today to be able to share there accounts of this fabulous time in Pontiac history.

[sixtiesmuscle]

Well said Bob.

[Bobcat]

Just had to check the board for some comic relief. You guys didn't fail me. You truly want to rewrite history though with your blind faith.
Hey, thanks for the complement. But, Yep, I am older 50. No, Milt is not in his '70's but I'm sure he appreciates the compliment too.
Sorry, But you'll have to look into things much closer. In all of those "OLD" magazines with Royal Photos and you'll see it's Frank Redicker,Winston "Win" Brown, Clarence Walters, Chuck Broomfield, Sid or Dave Warren doing the heavy work. Pete Seaton got his start hanging around Royal, as did Jack "Doc" Watson.
I wonder if "Royal" ever won a race with everyone beating them.
Undeniable contributions? Milt didn't start "looking on" at a Sun Distributor machine, a heads cc'd chamber, or an open engine compartment while at Royal until the 1965 magazines. I read one books which you reference that Milt said he should have patented the ram air system he worked on in 1965.
Too, bad that the '61-'62 Chevy's where already using it on their NASCAR racers. Z-11 program and 409's
I don't know how it could be possible for Milt to do all you think he did. For example trailer and drive the 1966 "Royal" race car. Trailer and drive and the four "Geeto Tigers," be the "Mystery Tiger" at all of the Geeto Tiger events,(there would be two teams at two different tracks at the same time), work on customer cars, answer all of those "Royal Bobcat" questions, take out all of those magazine test cars,etc, etc. Heck of a guy. LOL
In the back of the many 1965-1966 car magazines where "ACE Wilson Royal Pontiac/ Royal Racing Team" ads. with a contact person of, John Martin. Later no name because the duties where shared with Dennis Frazho and later Milt.
You should go back to "SPEED AND CUSTOM" magzine in August, 1963 and you still only see Dick Jesse, Jim Wangers and Frank Rediker.
I guess you haven't come across the History Channel" History of The Firebird" With me in the credits. Or, Speed Channel "American Muscle Car, Hurst Corp" with me in the credits
As for my '68 Firebird Brian Ballish is the one who came up with the RA IV 455 combo in the car. Diamond/Elkins did the head work. Say. why don't you find "Popular Hot Rodding" March 1971 and tell us who's pictured putting the engine in my car. Frankie Albrick did the street racing with this car. He too is only in his early 50's.
Boy, with your theory, the dealership service department must have just about closed down completely with Milt being on the road so much. LOL
Now the factory had two (2) Ram Air V engines in Florida. LOL Milt must have trailered the white with gold "Bobcat" hood striped '69 GP, '69 Judge, '69 Trans Am and the '69 GTO Crystal Turquse with the white striped "Bobcat" down all by himself. Changed the RA IV out for TWO (2) not 0ne (1) but TWO (2) Ram Air V engines. WOW!
Go back and rad some more articles. Jim has it in his book. Might be easier for you to find.
Than afterwards call Brian and than ask Jim Wangers for more confirmation on whom did what. Brian is in his early 50's too.
As for the "Car Craft Allstar Team" Brian would love to talk to you about that too. That became the only jacket Milt ever wore for years.
Thom DeMauro. He definately didn't know how to spell Royal until resent years. Thom will tell you he doesn't have time for extensive research. That he has to rely on the few people he comes in contact with. He has to get out a magazine for entertainment.
It's amazing the only people that can profit from your refusal to beleive reality is the one's you are blindly defending.The ones who have motive to future profits. LOL
Kicked out of local GTO club. That's even funnier. Keep up the story book. The chapters are getting better.
Hey, when you get time check the State of Michigan Corporation registry and trade marks and federal trade marks for Royal Bobcat/Ace Wilson's Royal Racing Team and GeetoTiger. Let me know who's name is on it and for how long.
As long as you have Jim's book, look on page 143, Dennis Frazho, John Politzer and John Kosmala would all be in their 50's too. LOL
Milt's current brown '69 GTO was owned first by Jim Wangers. (First Owner?) Jim only had a Ram Air IV in that car. Yes, Milt's Royal Automotive did do the Ram Air V converstion, but for the second owner. Now it has a Ram Air VI designation on the hood. Please explain. LOL
Unfortunately those who you appear to idealize have made a career of taking advantage from your thrust for more. Really, knowlege is good, blind faith is just that.
Thank you very much for todays entertainment. I've got to send this to Jim and some others.LOL

[Keith Tedford]

If we knew everything about our heroes, there might not be too many. Many didn't even ask to be put on the pedestals. In the mean time there are countless numbers of unsung heroes that go unnoticed. Happy New Year. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[GOAT72]

Bobcat,
Rather than diving into your pig-stye of misinformation (and horrific spelling), I will simply respond to a few of your ridiculous claims and display your lack of credibility to this forum.

[ QUOTE ]
But, Yep, I am older 50. No, Milt is not in his '70's but I'm sure he appreciates the compliment too.

[/ QUOTE ]

********Bobcat, I am happy that you "am older 50." Congrats!
Milt Schornack is in his early 70's. How do I know this?
I ASKED HIM.
So you are wrong about Milt's age. Not a big deal, but just another example of your inability to focus in reality.
************
[ QUOTE ]
<<I wonder if "Royal" ever won a race with everyone beating them.
Undeniable contributions? Milt didn't start "looking on" at a Sun Distributor machine, a heads cc'd chamber, or an open engine compartment while at Royal until the 1965 magazines.

[/ QUOTE ]

****************
This makes sense, since Milt didn't start at Royal until October of 1963. With the racing season all but over, Milt would not become involved until 1964. If it took him a WHOLE YEAR to get into a magazine, I envy him!

[ QUOTE ]
I read one books which you reference that Milt said he should have patented the ram air system he worked on in 1965.
Too, bad that the '61-'62 Chevy's where already using it on their NASCAR racers. Z-11 program and 409's

[/ QUOTE ]


**********Milt's Ram Air device was a self-admitted, "very rough prototype," which Pontiac engineers reworked. If others were working a Ram Air set-up, that's fine, because NO ONE HAD PATENTED IT at that point, so Milt could have applied for the patent. Period.
Secondly, if Chevy had it on NASCAR cars, then it was NOT a street application. Milt was trying to develop a ram air device for Royal Pontiac -- not NASCAR.

[ QUOTE ]
In the back of the many 1965-1966 car magazines where "ACE Wilson Royal Pontiac/ Royal Racing Team" ads. with a contact person of, John Martin. Later no name because the duties where shared with Dennis Frazho and later Milt.
You should go back to "SPEED AND CUSTOM" magzine in August, 1963 and you still only see Dick Jesse, Jim Wangers and Frank Rediker.

[/ QUOTE ]

**********Again, Milt started in Oct. '63, so why would he be in your "magzine" in August of that year?
You grasp... and you fail, Eric.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you haven't come across the History Channel" History of The Firebird" With me in the credits. Or, Speed Channel "American Muscle Car, Hurst Corp" with me in the credits.

[/ QUOTE ]

********* .....and those credits were forrrrrrr......?
Maybe because you OWN an older car.. or perhaps some historic paraphernalia?
They certainly can't be because of your distorted views, which are based out of personal hatred for a fellow human being.

[ QUOTE ]
Now the factory had two (2) Ram Air V engines in Florida. LOL [ QUOTE ]


********* Sorry, Eric, the books say he swapped One (1) out. period.
I don't know where you got the notion of 2.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the "Car Craft Allstar Team" Brian would love to talk to you about that too. That became the only jacket Milt ever wore for years.

[/ QUOTE ]

********* ah........ and there's something wrong with that?


[ QUOTE ]
Thom DeMauro. He definately didn't know how to spell Royal until resent years.

[/ QUOTE ]

********
And you can't spell "Tom."
Nor can you spell "definitely" or "recent" for that matter...

[ QUOTE ]
Thom will tell you he doesn't have time for extensive research. That he has to rely on the few people he comes in contact with. He has to get out a magazine for entertainment.

[/ QUOTE ]

********It is obvious you are pulling stuff directly from your BACK SIDE.
Tom DeMauro DOES have time to research things, and he'd better, because he runs a magazine! He ALSO wrote one of those "book things", Eric. It was about the GTO. He had to do extensive research in order to write this "book thing."

If you begin to cite Tom DeMauro as one of your "buddies" he'll probably gag up a lung when he hears of it.



[ QUOTE ]
It's amazing the only people that can profit from your refusal to beleive reality is the one's you are blindly defending.The ones who have motive to future profits. LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

********Wait a second. Is Jim Wangers profiting?
Are you blindly defending him? To the point of slanderous and libelous assaults on another person?

Again, we ALL enjoy, appreciate and RESPECT Mr. Wangers and Mr. Schornack for their contributions. For you to completely dispell one's very existence is ignorant.

[ QUOTE ]
Kicked out of local GTO club. That's even funnier. Keep up the story book. The chapters are getting better.

[/ QUOTE ]
***** I have it from not one, not two, but FOUR different sources that you were voted out of the Woodward GTO Tiger organization.

From these sources I also know that you have a history of being abrasive with your peers -- people who are simply trying to enjoy the hobby.

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately those who you appear to idealize have made a career of taking advantage from your thrust for more. Really, knowlege is good, blind faith is just that.
Thank you very much for todays entertainment. I've got to send this to Jim and some others.LOL


[/ QUOTE ]

**********Eric, for some reason you fail to garner ANY information from books, magazines and newspaper articles. You shun everything that is accepted in your own display of blind faith.
Everything you say is based on hearsay. You claim it is "first hand" but you were obviously NOT there. Even if you're in your 50's, you would have been only 10 years old when Royal was in its glory.
You heard this information from ONE SOURCE-- this is NOT "first hand". Is is second-hand or "word-of-mouth" at best.

How can SO MANY PEOPLE be wrong, and only YOU are right?

And what do you hope to accomplish with your insulting words and revisionist history?

There will always be room for more stories from the guys who were there in the 1960s. We all love to hear them speak and read their words.
Why don't you stop your hate campaign and just enjoy the hobby?

Just because you are friends with Mr. Wangers does not make you the authoritative voice of Royal Bobcat history. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Happy New Year, Bobcat.
Peace.
~G72

[Bobcat]

Keith. truer words were never spoken. Have a Good New Year. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[Bobcat]

GOAT72, may I suggest some anger managment classes for your condition. Your working yourself up, much to much. Take a deep breath. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[copo9566aa]

This is a long story /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif
probably better with pics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

For my Royal CD. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Charley Lillard]

This is just a reminder to those involved in this discussion to post your disagreements in a Civil manner if you want the discussion to continue. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif We all hate Pontiacs here anyway but we do like watching this Train Wreck. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[copo9566aa]

Chuck Brumfield /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

"Pontiac sucks"????????????

Charely do you own a Ford?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif

[copo9566aa]

Jim Stewart and Milt Schornack /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Tripower rulz!!! And whoever started the rumor that they are hard to tune or keep tuned, has never worked one.

Copo and his pictures /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[copo9566aa]

Jim Stewart and the 63 Catalina /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

This Jim Stewart looks just like a modern day actor, I can't remember his name but.

Copo I wonder if these old mechanics even care that they were there in all of this, what an awesome thing it had to be. I was just born in 63, only thing I was concerned with, fresh diaper and milk.

Ford lovers /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[copo9566aa]

Royal Pontiac Detroit Hot-Rod Show at cobo Hall Not COPO /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[copo9566aa]

Steved
I have no problem with Ford and Shelby /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
But my favorite = MOPAR /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[copo9566aa]

Royal Racing Team ads.

[Steve_Hoog]

I don't really hate Ford, I just love to beat them at the track. I enjoy nothing more than a 5.0 pulling up to me at the line.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Closet 73 Super Duty owner.

[copo9566aa]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really hate Ford, I just love to beat them at the track.

[/ QUOTE ]
Steved warning with a T-bolt /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

In my limited racing expierence, the one thing I continually had trouble with were Corvettes. There is no scientific basis for that, just coincidence. So I bought and built a Vette.

Thank goodness I have never had trouble with Ford's!!!!!

I would be more than happy to own an early Fastback Pony, or a Demon, or a Cuda. Some day, when I've had everything else I want.

OH MAN, an old Willy's with a Hemi!!! Can't forget about that one.

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
Copo I wonder if these old mechanics even care that they were there in all of this, what an awesome thing it had to be.

[/ QUOTE ] These guys were probably like anyone else ....earning a living...a little magazine exposure was probably cool.How could their arthritic hands,busted up knuckles and hernias know that 40 years later there would be lunatics poring over every move made back then and tried to make historical sense out of it !!!..they would have dressed better if they knew !!

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
Jim Stewart and Milt Schornack /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Roger (Copo9546aa),

All of your photos are amazing! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Do you mind me asking where they came from?
Do you own them?
How can I get a copy of that CD?

Thank you for posting them.

(BTW, I used to write for an entertainment company in Montreal. Are you in that city?)

~GOAT72

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
This is just a reminder to those involved in this discussion to post your disagreements in a Civil manner if you want the discussion to continue. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif We all hate Pontiacs here anyway but we do like watching this Train Wreck. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Charley,
I'll try to ignore the opinions of our own self-appointed "Minister of Information".
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
~Goat72

[copo9566aa]

Goat72

The pics is from my many old Magazines collection .
I'am just starting the CD about Royal and Bobcat. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
I like scanning working and sharing old mag pics with
other members of Yenko.net. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
My Location (estimate) MontrÈal, QuÈbec ,Canada... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

I'm not one for wearing clothes, normally. But that almost looks like a Snap On break over bar laying on the radiator support, least they had good taste in tools.

[copo9566aa]

Pontiac's baddest made better! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Michigan public records:
Milton Franis Shornack
La Roche Drive West
Macomb MI
Born 07/08/1935

This was sent to me in a private email, if this is the correct person and information my calculator says... 68

[55chevy]

GOAT, fill your name in on your profile buddy. It's just a common curtosy we have around here. http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
GOAT, fill your name in on your profile buddy. It's just a common curtosy we have around here. http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed,
Yes, I am well-aware of this, but for now, I can't.
I am currently in negotiations with a publisher and a major film studio for rights to a property I wrote last year.

I can not identify myself My literary agency would become quite upset with me if word got out. This stuff is all copyrighted, but we needn't "share" it with the general public. http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

When the deal is done, I will gladly tell y'all who I am.

http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
~G72

[Belair62]

huh ???? what stuff is copyrighted ???the banter between you and Bobcat ?

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
huh ???? what stuff is copyrighted ???the banter between you and Bobcat ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha ha!
No! Belair, my written work is copyrighted and registered with the Writer's Guild!
http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

~G72

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
GOAT72

You need to identify yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guys,

I mean no disrespect here, but I feel GOAT72 is being unfairly singled out. There are numerous users on here who do not have their profile filled out at all, and who knows how many are filled in with “bogus” information. He has everything filled in but his name. The user “pont406” (who has NOTHING in his profile) spoke up 3 times in the “70 Judge RA IV and V Cont.” thread and no one asked him to "identify himself". I noticed someone tonight who has been on here since 2000, has 785 posts and NO NAME in his profile! http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I, for one, do not have a problem if someone does not want to use their “real” name. What bothers me, however, is someone registering MULTIPLE user names with false information. They then can make it appear that there are multiple people who feel the same way about something, or worse, can use their “other” name when they want to post something mean or nasty http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif. I am aware of an individual who has done this http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif (and you know who you are!)

Rita http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[sYc]

Rita, point well taken. We are not picking on anyone, just trying to tighten down on a few rules. And, most times, when we ask someone to complete their profile, it is done by private message. If you know of someone who is abusing their priviledge to post, PLEASE let us know. We do the best we can, but can always use some help.

[hvychev]

hmmm. Tom BTW where is your name in your profile??? http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[GOAT72]

[quote
Guys,

I mean no disrespect here, but I feel GOAT72 is being unfairly singled out. There are numerous users on here who do not have their profile filled out at all, and who knows how many are filled in with “bogus” information. He has everything filled in but his name. <snip>
What bothers me, however, is someone registering MULTIPLE user names with false information. They then can make it appear that there are multiple people who feel the same way about something, or worse, can use their “other” name when they want to post something mean or nasty http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif. I am aware of an individual who has done this http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif (and you know who you are!)

Rita http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, Reet!
http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I could have just plugged-in a bogus name and misled Eric and his hidden supporters, Eric, Eric and Eric.

ONLY KIDDING!!!

Rather than simply being evasive and plugging an alias into my profile, I have simply chosen to remain anonymous for the time being.
My book deal should be signed in a week or two and then I will happily come out from behind the curtain.

Some people who have been polite (like Rita) already know who I am.
Just because I raise alotta valid points against Eric's incessant hatred for a single individual doesn't mean I'm
a hit & run member. It only means I have a few of my own "Royal Experts" at my finger tips.

By the way, I asked Milt how old he was last year and he said, "71" so I guess I'd better call him today and ask him again.
If Steved's source is correct I will give him his due, of course!
http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

~G72

[Keith Tedford]

It makes for a better web site if no one gets cut up. If you are in that mode then use your real name. You can always e-mail people privately if you have information that they should know. Nothing wrong with that.

[sYc]

[ QUOTE ]
hmmm. Tom BTW where is your name in your profile??? http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Frank, until a couple of days ago, when we changed servers, my name was at the bottom of each and every post I made. http://host.threadshosting.com/~yenko/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
Michigan public records:
Milton Franis Shornack
La Roche Drive West
Macomb MI
Born 07/08/1935

This was sent to me in a private email, if this is the correct person and information my calculator says... 68

[/ QUOTE ]

Based upon the mispellings, and his repeated references to the state of Michigan office of records, I'd venture to say, albeit in MY OWN OPINION, that "Bobcat" probably took the time to retrieve Milt's D.O.B.

Nonetheless, I stand corrected -- Milt told me that he was born on July 8, 1935. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

So I guess I should unsubscribe from these boards for the next 18 months? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

My apologies to anyone that my misquoted age-of-Milt may have inconvenienced. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Take care,
GOAT72

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
It makes for a better web site if no one gets cut up. If you are in that mode then use your real name. You can always e-mail people privately if you have information that they should know. Nothing wrong with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, Keith,
But I was not cutting anyone up, per se.
I was simply defending Milt Schornack who was not here to do it himself, and I was defending written history, versus 2nd-hand hearsay.

I am now in possession of several dozen articles concerning Royal Pontiac from 1963 through 1966. I can't wait to wade through 'em!

Happy New Year!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
GOAT 72

[Belair62]

Although I do read a lot of stuff....you also have to be cautious about "written history" IMO...sometimes there is as much fantasy/hype as fact.Being a writer I'm sure you are well aware of that and sift thru with a skeptical eye.

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
Although I do read a lot of stuff....you also have to be cautious about "written history" IMO...sometimes there is as much fantasy/hype as fact.Being a writer I'm sure you are well aware of that and sift thru with a skeptical eye.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree.
I read a dozen or so articles last night. Some of these were road tests on the GTO -- including the famous GTO vs. Ferrari GTO (where they never actually ran against each other.)
All of these articles were loaded with facts and photos.
Let me tell you -- Milt Schornack was no "doormat" at Royal.
There were dozens and dozens of photos showing him working on Pontiac engines at Royal. These articles included quotes from Dick Jesse and lots of praise for both Schornack and Jim Wangers.
You see?
This stuff can be alotta fun when you read it without a "slant" or ill-feelings (or outright hatred) for anyone.

Unless these major car magazines decided to spend time and a TON of $$ to "stage" a bunch of photos and create a major Royal Pontiac hoax, I would say that Dick Jesse, Jim Wangers, and YES, MILT SCHORNACK, were all major contributors to the Royal legend!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Happy New Year to alL!
~GOAT72 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[copo9566aa]

Another cool picture http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Yep, that's a nice one.

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
Another cool picture http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Roger,
Is that Lee Harvey Oswald leaning against the car?!?!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Just kiddin'.... nice photo!

G72

[JLP]

Here is another one. '62 Cat Post.

[Belair62]

LOLOL...Looks like HVYCHVY's Dad !!!Oswald was casing the Texas Schoolbook Repository at the time !!

[Mr70]

[ QUOTE ]
LOLOL...Looks like HVYCHVY's Dad !!!Oswald was casing the Texas Schoolbook Repository at the time !!

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks More Like Floyd The Barber...OH ANDY!

[copo9566aa]

Another a Royal GOAT C/S http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
Another a Royal GOAT C/S http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You have some great photos, dude!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

~G72

[copo9566aa]

Sure http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif i'am scanning full of pictures each day.
Cars an many other historic pictures...
But for me this is the high-resolution version.
100K only for this board.
Milt Schornack tested the prototype 68 1/2 GTO at Miami Dragway. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[hvychev]

belair! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

That ain't him! This is him. (see attachment)

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
belair! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

That ain't him! This is him. (see attachment)

[/ QUOTE ]

Frank,
If you didn't own the most powerful and 2nd coolest car to ever grace the streets (Sorry, partial to The Judge '70), I'd lambast you for posting that inaccurate photo.

Anyone with a half a brain knows that is a file photo from 1974 of the Czechoslovakian version of "Three's Company"!

(This was from the episode where Mr. Roperski tried to turn Jack Tripprskova into the KGB for crimes against the state.)

Rumor has it the blonde woman didn't return after the 2nd season because she wanted twice as many rubles per episode!

~GOAT72 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Mr70]

Welcome Back Kotters' Juan Epstien....The Forgotten Years! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[55chevy]

man... the 70s sure were hip huh? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
man... the 70s sure were hip huh? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a photo of actor Josh Harnett in a 1970 GTO in the movie "Dazed and Confused". I guess the GTO is seen throughout the movie.

Dazed and Confused photo (http://ultimategto.com/movies/70fakk.jpg)

~G72

[copo9566aa]

Hi Goat72
This is the second pictures of the 68 1/2 GTO Ram-Air
performance test. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif
CCM68

[Seattle Sam]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a photo of actor Josh Harnett in a 1970 GTO in the movie "Dazed and Confused". I guess the GTO is seen throughout the movie.

Dazed and Confused photo (http://ultimategto.com/movies/70fakk.jpg)

~G72

[/ QUOTE ]

Goat,
I believe that car is a '70 SS Chevelle...the Goat was a yellow or orange Judge

http://www.dazed-and-confused.net/cars/judge2.jpg

if I remember right.
There are more pics here clickable link - Dazed and Confused (http://www.dazed-and-confused.net/cars.html)

-Sam

[copo9566aa]

GM 2275
This car was set up by Michigan's Royal Pontiac
which is Pontiac way of testing advanced prototypes prior
to actual production. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif
SM_Oct68

[Steve_Hoog]

Roger

I got to meet Jim Wangers last weekend, he was nothing like my preconceived notation. I thought he was rock solid on all he talked about, much was on these very Pontiacs being discussed in this forum. Very interesting history this man has, if you had all his memories in picture format as the ones your posting.... wouldn't that be something.

[copo9566aa]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gifJim Wangers http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Jim Wangers (http://www.jimwangers.com) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[copo9566aa]

1968 1/2 Royal Ram-Air Firebird http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif
SS & DI May 68 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[StealthBird]

Here's a weird one....

http://www.desertautosport.com/main.aspx?s=inventory&m=c_inventory_detail&CarID=9 6

[Belair62]

I think this was the one that wound up at the same dealer as the ZL1 #66...nothing on the doc's or PHS showed it as a Bobcat car or from Royal for that matter...anyone aware of anything else ???

[MrsBillyBobcat]

$122,000? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[GTO_DON]

NOT EVEN A REAL RAM AIR CAR!! WS IS HO 400-360HP,WORTH ABOUT HALF THAT MONEY! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Cool pic:

http://www.empgmc.com/race/68royal.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

Price list:

http://www.empgmc.com/race/royalprices.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

Very cool pic, the obvious Blue Bobcat and what appears to be a Colonial Judge:

http://www.empgmc.com/race/florida/judgeandblue.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

This appears to be Milt and Dave mixing it up:

http://www.empgmc.com/race/68bobcats.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

This is obviously a winter shot, I would say early 69 or late 68. Notice the WY engine decal still on the motor of the Blue Bobcat, first time I've seen one of those on a 69. And the huge Doug headers, caption reads they are 2". So big one even has to go through the fender well. Milt driving and probably Dave doing the tire pressure.

http://www.empgmc.com/race/bluegtowinter.jpg


http://www.empgmc.com/race/blueengine.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

This is my favorite Royal car. At the time this was taken in eary 1969, all the Royal Racing had apparently been moved over to George Delorean.

http://www.empgmc.com/race/drb.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

And in color:

http://www.empgmc.com/race/rav/69350HO.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

I would like you all to entertain a couple of assumptions.

One, lets assume the engine code WY sticker was how the car was delivered.

Two, then assume it has to be one of two possible engine blocks.

Below is a chart from H.O. Racing, since the car was probably built in late 68 it must be either a 68 or 69 coded block. So what choices does that leave you with?

http://www.azalea.net/~steved/yenko/enginecodes.jpg

[GOAT72]

Who cares and what's your point, Steve?

Besides the fact that the car is now owned by Billy Bobcat...

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]

One, lets assume the engine code WY sticker was how the car was delivered.

Two, then assume it has to be one of two possible engine blocks.

Below is a chart from H.O. Racing, since the car was probably built in late 68 it must be either a 68 or 69 coded block. So what choices does that leave you with?


[/ QUOTE ]

Since it's a '69 car, it must be a RAV engine. Pontiac must've used the WY blocks in '69 to put the RAV intake, cams, et al.

But to imply that the car came with a '68 engine is well, cuckoo!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Keith

I don’t know what this sticker means to fact, but it has interesting possibilities.

Since it has a round port top end with aluminum intake IV intake, how do we know?

It could have been a RAII carryover block from 68 with IV components added at the factory; could have been a V block installed in Engineering, and obviously some one would have had to change out the cam? Could be Royal swapped who knows what in the car, either from another car or something they got from engineering?

What ever the nature of this block, it pre dates the Florida testing and gives the car another interesting part of the its history.

[Charley Lillard]

Whatever happened to that car ?

[Steve_Hoog]

Charley

In my opinion it went on to become the most recognizable 69 GTO in the history of Pontiac.

[Charley Lillard]

I was asking about the Firebird.. I know where Ritas car is... I hid something in it at SCR7

[Steve_Hoog]

Well I was wondering why you asked that question, it didn't make much sense to the Blue car. I figured you were leading me into something. Just what did you hide in it?

The Firebird is painted black with a IV hidden in a garage some where, so I was told. Several people have contacted me in private in effort to acquire it, which was interesting to me because I don't know where it is.

But yeah I would think that would be one sweet car to own.

[GOAT72]

Schornack might know where that car is.

I think Milt still owns the '71 'Bird that he raced for Pontiac in 1971.
Now THAT car has a history that will NOT be revealed until my Schornack book comes out!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

(It will drive Steved beyond the point of insanity when he reads it!)
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Watch for the Schornack biography to be released around Thanksgiving.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

In the meantime, you can read the FIRST EVER fiction about Woodward Avenue. This novel is a throwback to 1970 Detroit.
It was read by Jim Wangers and Milt Schornack before it went to the printer.
I co-wrote it and it is a really fun trip back in time!
Woodward Avenue: The Novel (http://www.lulu.com/content/170478)
Enjoy!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

I've heard a little bit about Milt's post Royal days, the Pontiac Engineers continued to shuffle performance parts for him to test and what not. Heard a teaser on the Firebird, it all sounds cool to me.

You should have never hinted Milt knows where the Bird is, you will now have all the people that contacted me after you.

I love 350 HO Firebirds, and that alone makes it a great car in my book. I love the paint scheme and the daul hood tach air feeds. I just wish there were more color pics of all these cars, and some video would be nice. I can't believe no one shot some film of all this stuff back in the 60's

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]
I was asking about the Firebird.. I know where Ritas car is... I hid something in it at SCR7

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Bill just got back from tearing the interior out of his Bobcat to see what you hid in it http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

WOW! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif THANKS CHARLEY! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif That is COOL! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

Rita

Have you and or Bill ever noticed the WY sticker photo, if you have what is your take on it?

[Steve_Hoog]

Let me re phrase that, obviously you have at least seen it now since I posted it.

Had you taken notice of it before this thread?

And what is your take on it, regardless of when you first saw it?

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]


I think Milt still owns the '71 'Bird that he raced for Pontiac in 1971.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bill currently owns the 70 1/2 ROYAL Formula. He purchased it from Milt almost 15 years ago.

Here's the model that MPC did of this NHRA record setting Firebird: http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/164332-royalfirebirdmodel.JPG



BTW...I also know where the '69 ROYAL Firebird is, but out of respect for the owner, I will not disclose it on here. (sorry http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

[Belair62]

Very cool Rita...I like the shoe polish on the slick too !

[Steve_Hoog]

In this April 1969 issue of Super Stock there appears to be a mid winter trip to the dragstrip for some test and tune. Possibly JW's Light Green converted Judge and the Blue Bobcat.

There are two things to note; one the non production Ram Air set up, and two a 68 RAII Firebird engine shot. The Ram Air set up is probably something Milt Dave and Brian Ballish came up with. Why the article has a 68 RAII Firebird shot listed as the Blue Bobcat, your guess is as good as mine.

http://www.empgmc.com/magazines/april69superstockcovert.jpg

Full Size Cover (http://www.empgmc.com/magazines/april69superstockcover.jpg)

Page 28 (http://www.empgmc.com/magazines/april69superstock28.jpg)
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http://www.empgmc.com/magazines/april69superstock30a.jpg

http://www.empgmc.com/magazines/april69superstock30b.jpg
The shroud and fender well are Firebird, the recessed top 3.8 water pump bolt is 68, and also notice this is a power steering car.

[Steve_Hoog]

Here is the full article March 1969 Popular Hot Rodding that the WY picture came from. The other interesting thing is the strange angle the oil sending unit appears to run. It may just be because of the angle the picture was taken from, but it appears to go out at a 45 degree angle. That is why I was checking to see if the V motor had a special adapter, no one seems to think so.

http://www.empgmc.com/magazines/march69phrcovert.jpg

Full Size Cover (http://www.empgmc.com/magazines/march69phrcover.jpg)

Page 18 (http://www.empgmc.com/magazines/march69phr18.jpg)
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http://www.empgmc.com/magazines/march69phr22a.jpg

http://www.empgmc.com/magazines/march69phr23a.jpg

[67 GTO]

I've always believed in defensive reading. I'm usually quite surprised if I cannot find something more after a careful lookover...
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/download.php?Number=62878
If you look at this pic, they refer to the car as a 63 Catalina - it's a 66 GTO. I've seen this same picture also used in some 67 articles.

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/63897-68RoyalGoatest2.jpg
Check out the dropped exhaust on the RA II car, yet it looks like the other car's pipes aren't hanging down. Were they playing favorites?

[Steve_Hoog]

67 GTO

I am dead guilty of not double checking articles for many years. I was always in a hurry and took it at face value, I have no learned my lesson. That was not a good practice.

[Steve_Hoog]

I think I have figured out why the sender unit looks ackward in that underneath shot of the Blue Bobcat. After looking over the March 1969 Super Stock that covered the 350 HO Firebird, I saw this engine shot. Although the nylon tubing cannot be seen on the Blue car, I'll bet Milt and crew did this type set up on cars to allow both the factory and a mechanical oil gauge to work.

http://www.empgmc.com/race/350hosender.jpg

[Steve_Hoog]

I was really hoping this was a 69 WY, as you can see from this photo it is a 68 timing cover. Chances are it's a 68 block to go with the code, still leaves the questions of how and way.

This does not in anyway distract from the cars importance to Pontiac history, in my opinion. Just a strange piece of the puzzle.

http://www.empgmc.com/race/68wy.jpg

[flash]

to everyone that tried to answer this question,user( bobcat ) came the closest to reality, and seems to have the history nailed except the porter story. the porters that washed and primped the cars in those events worked for the promoters just like the gate and litter crews. at any given time the bobcat and hot chiefs had a group with the cars but that would have been wangers the tech center guys and a few of the wrenches from the dealership, but never a porter. Ace sr. was more worried that ace jr. was going to kill himself with his fast toys, than about the race program. royal pontiac produced its last hot car in 1976 a black grand prix with jade green pinstripes. the dealership was sold to al shaffo the same year he defaulted after six months and the dealership was then sold to jim fresard.there are many firebirds,gto, lemans, and grand prix cars out there with some H.O. stuff and special paint that no one seems to remember but they were hard to miss in a crowd. royal raced in many events from the 50s to the 70s including pikes peak hill climbing... well that is enough for now... I would be interested in knowing how bobcat came to know so much about the royal team... but he is more accurate than all the books written.

[Steve_Hoog]

Flash

Bobcat was and still is right there with all the people involved, he still races one of the original hot Bobcat cars. I have found him to be one of the best assets for the Royal history. I think the porter comment was a sarcastic joke, in my opinion.

If you know anything about the 350 HO Firebird and interested in sharing, I would like to hear.

[GOAT72]

This one should cast some light on those Royal days though.

Milt Schornack and the Royal Bobcat GTOs (http://www.pricewormer.com/book/search/Milt%20Schornack%20and%20the%20Royal%20Bobcat%20Gt os/ISBN/0786423870/)

[flash]

which H.O. firebird are you looking for? there where more than a few with the royal treatment....

[Steve_Hoog]

This one.

350 HO (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/167186/an/0/page/0#167186)

[Steve_Hoog]

Ok, so now the release date is pushed to January 2006. What's up with that? The publishing company is McFarland, so I gave them a little jingle on the phone to ask why. They would offer no explanation.

Just as a wild shot, I thought some one may be fighting the release legally. Since McFarland is in Jefferson NC, I decided to give the old Ash County Courthouse a phone call. Found the person in charge of such public records is Theresa and I'm waiting on a call back from her.

I will let you know if I find anything interesting.

[Steve_Hoog]

Now spring/summer 2006!!!!

Keith, I for one wanted to read this book a year ago. This sucks!! The most practical reason would be printing issues, but if some one if fighting it legally I might be pissed.

Light a fire under some one in publishing.

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
Now spring/summer 2006!!!!

Keith, I for one wanted to read this book a year ago. This sucks!! The most practical reason would be printing issues, but if some one if fighting it legally I might be pissed.

Light a fire under some one in publishing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you writing this CRAP? The book is in the print department as we speak. The print run is for next week and
it will be available for sale just prior to Christmas.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

You are absolutely certifiable.....
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

McFarland (http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.php?isbn=0-7864-2387-0)

I figured this was the best place to keep track of it. Is this not the publisher? Take a look and tell me what it means, they say spring/summer 2006?

[Steve_Hoog]

Keith

A week or so ago the site said winter 2006 or January 2006, can't remember which. That was when I called McFarland to ask why, they would not give a reason. Out of the slight possibilty there was legal action, I checked with the courthouse. But they can only look it up by the Plantiff, I could only think of one name to try for that and it didn't come up with anything.

Today, I saw Jim had posted this on Milt's sight.

[ QUOTE ]
As Murphy's law would have it we now are not expecting the printing to happen of the book until early 2006. We apoligize for any inconvenience but if this causes and problem for anyone that has placed there order please contact us by email. 11/16/05


[/ QUOTE ]

So something isn't adding up if you think publication is still this year.

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
Keith


Today, I saw Jim had posted this on Milt's sight.

[ QUOTE ]
As Murphy's law would have it we now are not expecting the printing to happen of the book until early 2006. We apoligize for any inconvenience but if this causes and problem for anyone that has placed there order please contact us by email. 11/16/05


[/ QUOTE ]

So something isn't adding up if you think publication is still this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

On Tuesday, I received an email from McFarland & Company's president, who told me the proofs were done and the book was on it's way to the printers.

But Milt and I spoke today and he told me that he called my editor this afternoon and the editor called down to the print shop. Then he got back on the horn and said he'd send an email when he had a print date. Tonight at 7PM, Milt called me to say the email from McFarland indicated the book would print next week.

The Schornack website was updated on Nov. 11th? That's not the latest news!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

The reason there is a discrepancy is because they were going to farm-out the print to China, but perhaps they've seen some demand? In any case, the print run was changed to "in-house" so the book will be available before Christmas.

[b]...or so we've been told.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[GOAT72]

The book is listed on Sean Mattingly's Home page at www.ultimategto.com. (http://www.ultimategto.com.) We're talkin' 6 million hits per month. Under those circumstances, there may have been hundreds of orders placed with McFarland and they saw the need to switch the print run to in-house.

I have set-up a webpage for easy purchasing of the book.

Please feel free to purchase it through me and I'll sign whatever you'd like inside (G-rated only http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

Here's the book site:
www.GTOBook.com (http://www.gtobook.com)

<font color="red">Be sure to get one for your bedroom, reading chair and toilet area!</font>
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif
<font color="green">
And inquire if your mom, dad, sister, grandmother or parole officer might want one for Christmas too!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif </font>

Thanks!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[GOAT72]

Post deleted by Chevy454

[Steve_Hoog]

All I can say it, I can't wait to read it and I hope the publishing problems disappear.

Thanks Keith.

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]
All I can say it, I can't wait to read it and I hope the publishing problems disappear.

Thanks Keith.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh...again, I reiterate: there is NO publishing problem.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif
McFarland's sales rep called me this morning and guaranteed a Dec. release.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Steve_Hoog]

July 1969 Super Stock

http://www.empgmc.com\magazines\july69superstockt.jpg

Full Size Cover (http://www.empgmc.com\magazines\july69superstock.jpg)

Page 34 (http://www.empgmc.com\magazines\july69ss34.jpg)
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