GMMG CAR ON EBAY

[MLK327GA]

DOES ANYONE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS CAR?http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=6161&item=244 7757492
LOOKS LIKE A GOOD DEAL FOR THE $$. IM TRYING TO GET ANY INFO ON THIS CAR!PLEASE GIVE ME SOME FEEDBACK. DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO CONTACT GMMG?. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif THANX MICHAEL

[jg95z28]

Say... is that a first gen funny car I see in the background?
http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2447757492&indexURL=3& photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

[matt murphy]

Mike,

I am in now, or you or anyone can get me by my pager at 404-726-7574 . . . The car on Ebay is a 2001 Camaro Z28 we have tried a few things on over the years. It has a few emblems and such that were on other GMMG cars. Most recently it was used to test the automatic computer programming and at one time we developed the Phase 3 fuel managment system with a big motor in it. We try things on these cars and then some of them work their way into our dealer cars. It had originally cloth interior but now has 2002 leather with GMMG logo in the headrest, again, a sample our supplier did for us before we did the Home Depot truck head rest stitching. I think the reserve is around $21K. Not much more than what a low mileage Z28 would retail for, but it has some interesting history. It right now has the 380hp package on it and a new take-out LS1 motor with a LS6 cam shaft. It has a different torque converter in it and will fly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

It is a great looking car, I always called it the GMMG Storm Trooper car . . . /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif When I was at SLP, we had these types of development cars and we sold them and the owners wanted them because they had SLP history and were a unique conversation piece. Call me if you need more info.

[MLK327GA]

THANK YOU MATT!! I'LL GIVE YOU A CALL ON YOUR PAGER. ITS GREAT TALKING TO YOU ! AND I THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME! SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT CAR, AND I HAVE BID ON IT. LOOKS LIKE A PART OF GMMG HISTORY IS UP FOR SALE. THIS IS A GREAT SITE! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif THANX YENKO.NET!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[JChlupsa]

OK BOYS!!! lets get this straight.

Cars seller on Ebay is kamarokin = aka ***********
Cars Bidders on Ebay <font color="red">hugger66 </font>
Other Car bidder <font color="red">MLK327GA </font> who posted this request for info post who also happens to have the same IP Address as *********. So what it looks like is we have a couple of guys that are selling a car and trying to drive up the price shill bidding. I would think that if the car is as good as they say in the ad that it would sell on its own merits and not highballing the price for it.

AFTER MUCH THOUGHT AND CONSIDERATION IP ADDRESSES WILL NO LONGER BE POSTED WITHIN THREADS. ON HINDSIGHT THOUGH IF A SECOND POST WITHING THE SAME THREAD TURNS UP THE SAME IP ADDRESS AND DIFFERENT SCREEN-NAME IS USED AND A CONFLIT APPEARS BOTH PARTIES WILL BE CONTACTED via PM'S/E-MAIL TO FIND OUT WHAT IS GOING ON. ADMIN RESERVES THE RIGHT TO DELETE SAID POSTS.





This being said best way to find out abut the car is leave your desk and go out to the car in the shop area or go see Matt who I would think would be right down the hall from where you are located. But then again why would you when you most likely put on 85% of the miles the car has.

[Denis]

This calls for a special icon:

http://www.corvettes-musclecars.com/yenko.net/busted.gif

[budnate]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Nice work Danno!! now Book'em. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[jg95z28]

You're my hero Jeff! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Shill bidders suck imo. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[matt murphy]

KILLER RESEARCH MAN /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif BEERS ON ME. YOU THE MAN JEFF. YOU WERE DEAD ON WITH YOUR RESEARCH.

[Zedder]

Sounds like you're proud of cheating? Now the shenanigans from last week make total sense. It's funny how quickly one's reputation can be ruined. GMMG... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[Stuart Adams]

Jeff, awesome work. Charlie is fired and your hired as WEBSITE GESTAPO. That tactic on ebay bothers me. I'm sure the car is legit and the parties involved meant no harm. I don't want this post to stir anything up, that is not my nature. As far as Charlie, we all know he is awesome (sometimes).

[JChlupsa]

[ QUOTE ]
Jeff, awesome work. Charlie is fired and your hired as WEBSITE GESTAPO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome work no, it was more than I that questioned the seller and the bidders. And as for fired no way, its the mix of all of us that makes everything work that way it does.

[matt murphy]

Jeff,

If you wanted the real story I wish you would have called me. Now you have created a mess bacause Mike Carnahan tried to go in to Mike Kratchmers post and fix it. Mike Carnahan was afraid to make a post about his car for sale because of the posts he made last week and the abuse he took, so Mike Kratchmer made one this morning without us knowing about it and it was stated wrong. Mike Carnahan saw the post after Kratchmer told Carnahan he made it. Kratchmer gave Carnahan his password to yenko.net so he could change the original post about me not being there, etc.

The point Kratchmer was trying to make, was to let people know that the car was for sale on ebay. He screwed that one up, by saying something that didn't make sense. I am not sure where any wrong doing was made on Ebay, as far as anyone here or elsewhere running up the price on the car. I made Mike an offer as did Mike Kratchmer. I don't see anything illegal or deceitful about that. The used car price for a 2001 Z28 retail is $19,500, the reserve on this car is $20,500. The BUY IT NOW price is $23,000. Anyone trying to make money on this car here is pretty far fetched.

I am going to redo the post like it should have been said. Kratchmer didn't think his post would do anything but tip people off to a car for sale on Ebay. Again, a first time poster that didn't know that there was a section here referencing "For Sale" cars.

Seriously look at the facts here and tell me someone is trying to deceipt someone about the car, lie about the car to make it worth more (if anything this post might bring the saleable value down) or run up an Ebay price by placing the first two offers well under the reserve.

I do commend you on your effort to get to the bottom of stuff, but finding a scam here you didn't. I had a long good talk with the guy that sold me the Motion stuff on Ebay that gave you my info on Hugger66. I wasn't aware that it was such top secret info. I don't use it here because I want people to know who I am when I make a post. As did Mike Carnahan when he made the posts last week. I wish you guys would treat first time posters with a little bit of respect. If they dont know the rules and regulations of this site . . . pull them aside and tell them privately, instead of nationally embarressing them.

You can't get me to run away from this site guys. I have been a Chevy Enthusiast for 20 plus years. These cars are my hobby as they are yours. Make fun of me if it makes you feel good. I have had many people my whole life mess with me because of my name . . . Matty, Mattress, Murphy's Oil Soap, etc. Make fun of me because I am Polish or whatever, I have heard them all; But, like I said last week, I will only get fired up once here and I already used that card.

And yes, the beers are on me, that is an Irish problem I have . . . /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[DjD]

Matt - Setting all else aside why on earth would you or Mike bid on a car you could have by calling the owner and making a deal?

[matt murphy]

Dennis,

I tried to buy that car from Mike Carnahan and I offered him $16,500. I know Mike Kratchmer also offered Mike Carnahan about that, but I need a car to turn into a drag car and $21,000 was more than I wanted to spend. I thought I would help Mike's Ebay ad out by making the first offer. None of us here really use Ebay and I was not aware that making an offer like that would leave people to believe something different about the offer. I told my wife what happened a minute ago and she said, "Why did you do that, it looks like you were up to somehting, because you know the seller." I still don't think an offer below his reserve was that wrong. Mike didn't want to see me rip up that car and use it to make a drag car. He said that to someone it might be a GMMG car that they can afford and want. I agreed with him and we put the Ebay ad together so no one was mislead about the history of the car.

[matt murphy]

ZEDDER . . . he was dead on with his research . . . just wrong about the outcome . . .

By the way . . . I like your interests in L78 cars. I have a '67 Camaro Indy Pace Car with an L78 that Larry Christenson is restoring. A '68 Nova L78 that we all know about, and a '69 Camaro L78 car that Dick Arons turned into a 427 Drag Car, that Brian Henderson and crew are going to restore for me. Ironically that car was sponsored by Berger Chevy and Motion Performance, two pretty cool performance centers of the 60's and still very much into muscle cars today. I have a chance to buy a '70 L78 Camaro, but the funds aren't there right now for it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[Zedder]

Matt, Yes, I saw your L78 Nova at Carlisle this year and it is a beautiful car. An L78 Pace Car would certainly be on my short list for the future, especially since my first Camaro when I was 17 was a Pace Car (small block - one of the 10 Canadian delivered cars). We actually have more in common also - my 3 1/2 year old son's name is Matthew (already teaching him Karate, so the name calling won't last too long /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif) and I was born in Ireland.

As for the stuff above - regardless of your true intentions, it always boils down to perceptions when dealing on a public forum and especially when representing a business. Sounds like your wife set you straight though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I've got a wife that's good at that too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[matt murphy]

Does she know about your cars ?? I have to hide mine here at the shop so she doesn't ask for more shoes and stuff. HA HA

Hey, I also have an 8 year old boy named Matthew Timothy Murphy . . . I also told my wife that his grandpa put the car bug in him through me. He wants the '68 Funny Car Camaro we have when he turns 16 . . . /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[matt murphy]

Jeff,

I want to retract my comment about blaming you for creating a mess . . . I'm sorry.

I am sending you an email regarding the info you asked about last week. It is pretty final as to the Camaro stats we have built over the last three years.

[Kim_Howie]

FINALY THE TRUE COMES OUT /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[MotownMadman]

Matt,
Nobody has ever succeeded in picking on me because my name was Matt, not after the first one I made an example out of. Just think, Johhny Cash had a boy named Sue! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[bbdon]

Regardless of the idea that the shill bidding was only driving the price up to what someone thinks is the real value of the car, shill bidding is WRONG! I cannot believe that some people seem to think that this shill bidding was OK. How can anyone trust that an auction that involves any of these people is fair? They cant. Only a fool would bid now, or do any future business with those involved.

[Chevy454]

So let me get this straight...

"Kratchmer" made the original post from Carnahan's computer, yet Carnahan (kamaroking) allegedly didn't know what was happening. So, Murphy plays along and builds up the car and provides contact info, to which "Kratchmer" replies back, still playing the part of "interested party". He evens states he "has bid on it". He's right about that, as he bid on it 2 days ago (12-9-2003). A quick check on Ebay reveals that one other person has bid, that being "hugger66", which is Matt Murphy.
So, you've got an employee of GMMG selling a car, the owner of GMMG bidding on it, and a "friend" of BOTH parties also bidding on it. Does this look like the workings of a legitimate auction? What if an innocent and LEGITIMATE party had placed a bid? Would they have quit bidding, seeing as the auction is (and has been for some time) out of there respective price ranges? Is this standard practice for ALL GMMG cars that "sell" on Ebay? Is shill bidding now "acceptable"?

I guess all of this just strikes me as "funny". Just a few short days ago Carnahan basically "thumbed his nose" at this site and it's admin/moderators. His first posts on this site were an attack on another member who had concerns about a car HIS company built, followed by an off-hand remark about filling out his profile. All my offline efforts yielded was me hearing about how "he knew he was right" and how he cares "more about the truth and the cars", or how he'd "built over 700 cars" and wanted "off the site" and would "never post again". But, when it comes to selling his car, guess which site he/they choose(s)? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't LS1Tech or LS1.com....

[Charley Lillard]

Hey wait a minute...I'm the current high bidder....BBDON..I see Matts bid as a bid that he is willing to pay. The same thing for the other Guy. I have Bid on it and I will pay that much for it but I don't consider it a shill bid. I think it is a Cool car for the price. I am kinda suprised that it has not been bought. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[hvychev]

This whole situation stinks......... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[bbdon]

"I thought I would help Mike's Ebay ad out by making the first offer"
That's shill bidding. I don't see how anyone could have any other interpretation of it.

[matt murphy]

BBDON, fill out your profile and give at least me your name so I know who I am talking to. Explain shill bidding and is that in the dictionary ?? WHY is it illegal for a friend to make a bid on a car that someone wanted to put on Ebay ?? If I placed a standing offer for $16,500, what in this world of SYC is wrong with that ?? Come on, what are you so upset about ?? It is an awesome car for the price, and you have to keep using this site to ridicule someone instead of helping someone understand what they might have done wrong in your mind. Please copy me here on the Ebay rules about Shill bidding, so I can see what I and or Mike Kratchmer did wrong. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[MotownMadman]

Matt,
As a Ebay power seller I may be able to explain. Shill bidding is if you have an item on Ebay for auction and you notify and use friends and associates to bid on the car to increase the price. Even if the associates bids stay below the reserve they still create the appearence of multiple parties being interested in the car, which can cause two different situations. Your actual bidder may fear losing the car due to a great deal of interest and therefore step up to the buy it now or make a high offer to presuade the seller to end the auction outright. The other effect it can have is creating a competetive frenzy which could cause people to bid more then they intended to pay or what they can afford. It is against Ebay rules and the seller can be suspended from Ebay on atemporairy or permanent basis, depending on how serious the situation or past similar actions. The best way to use Ebay is in an completely honest manner, certainly with high ticket items, as your future ability to sell is based on your past transactions and the honesty in which they were conducted. If you have friends or employees who had an interest in the car a deal should have been struck privatly prior to ebay. Your one associate made a post here in a manner that he was asking about the car, well, if he knows the car why ask? I would guess that gave you an opportunity to respond on this board with all the details without looking like a hard sell by advertising it without anyone expressing an interest. In the business you are in you cant afford bad rap, certainly not over a test car which is not where your bread and butter is. Just some food for thought.
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[matt murphy]

Rob,

Mike Kratchmer made the first post from his computer at home this morning. He called Carnahan and told him what he did, while he was at work, away from home. Carnahan was not happy with the post so Carnahan called Kratchmer back and said to change it and Kratchmer said he couldn't until later, so he gave Carnahan his SYC password and Carnahan went in and edited Kratchmers post, while I was reading it for the first time.

(So, you've got an employee of GMMG selling a car, the owner of GMMG bidding on it, and a "friend" of BOTH parties also bidding on it.)

Please show me where in the Ebay rules that an owner of a company is not allowed to place a bid on an employees car ?? If I want that car I have to pass on it because he is an employee or for Kratchmer a friend ??

(Is this standard practice for ALL GMMG cars that "sell" on Ebay? Is shill bidding now "acceptable"?)

Today is the first time I have ever heard of Shill Bidding, and if the word Shill Bidding has been mentioned by people on this site before then obviously it has happened before, and GMMG cars are not the first time it has happened. If you know anyone who was not happy with the price they paid for their GMMG car, then please introduce them to me.

And for those that think GMMG is here racking in the BIG BUCKS on these cars, then you have not followed any of the GMMG cars for sale. Other than this car, what GMMG car have you or anyone seen on Ebay or anywhere for sale by anyone from GMMG ?? Mike has been offered BIG BUCKS for his "Grumpy's Toy" ZL1 Supercar #69, but it is not on Ebay or some auction or web site for sale. Privately for sale, maybe, but like all ZL1 owners, they have the option to sell their cars.

If people are not familiar with how GMMG cars are sold then here is an example. We sell a package to the dealers (ie, Intimidator SS, or Berger SS, or ZL1 Supercar), they have a standard markup, which we set for them to prevent different MSRP prices; which is usually twice the standard markup of a Chevy option. Dealers love it because they sell most of our cars for MSRP. They make a great profit on these cars. GMAC loves it because they finance BIG dollars on these cars. GM Performance parts love it because we primarily use their parts before an aftermarket one. The Camaro Brand team loves it because these cars bring excitement to the dealership level. Then, the customers buy the cars, and are happy with their purchase, I assume, or they wouldn't have purchased their car. A lot of these customers are buyers and sellers and SYC members of this board, and they like the fact that they can buy a car and sell it for a significant profit. I can think of 12 or more ZL1's that have sold for well over 100K, and that is in most cases probably 20K more than the original buyer paid for their cars. You think that that hasn't bothered a few of my employees that see that, when we built them and only made the original few thousand from the dealer. It is getting tougher each day for me to explain to my employees, that we need to let them make the profit so they come back to do it again. There are a lot of people trying to get in on the money making opportunities that we have made for them.

If we wanted to make money on this car, I could have very easily succomed to the money making opportunity here and put a 427 C5R motor in it and listed that car as the One and Only ZL1 pilot test vehicle used to create the ZL1 / GMMG Phase 3 upgrade package, and with my letter of authenticity, we could pull it off and ask in the neighborhood of the 427 ZL1 cars. NO, I told Mike that we are not going to do that. I think that stands for Integrity and I have seen the opposite done before by people all around the industry.

(His first posts on this site were an attack on another member who had concerns about a car HIS company built)

GRB mentioned that he was having problems with his GMMG modified ZL1 rear end. That was not true, he added a 12 Bolt aftermarket rear end and tried to put the rear brake brackets on it that we put on the original rear end. He admitted that he forgot to mention that small point, that it was NOT the original GMMG modified rear end, but one that he and LWA added.

(But, when it comes to selling his car, guess which site he/they choose(s)? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't LS1Tech or LS1.com....)

OK, if it hasn't hit you guys here, but these GMMG cars are being bought by members of this site and not the LS1TECH or LS1.com web sites, Why, because those guys and sites are directed at people that are interested in doing the modifications to their cars by themselfs. Also, they are of the age that can not afford these high priced cars that we purposely built for the high end collectors, like the members of this site. And lastly, the statement on the front page of the SYC states that this site is for Dealer Built Musclecars, which happens to be where our cars have fallen into, not the sites of LS1TECH or LS1.COM that cater to the individual that modifies his own car, and the aftermarket parts they use on their cars.

I don't see why you would make a post that would come off pretty hard towards a company that has probably 30 or more members here that own our cars as well as the Supercars of yesterday. Hurting GMMG hurts their investment, and that is why I stick up for GMMG and whatever we do, be it right or wrong, people make mistakes, and so far all my people have appologised here for their wrong doings.

You can expect that tomorrow you and a few others here will get a private message from both Carnahan and Kratchmer appologising for what they have stated here. I'm sorry they have made mistakes here on this site and for that I asked them to stay on their web sites and I will moniter this one to help those members here that might need my help.

I told you guys that I firmly believe in this web site, and if some people do not have the same beliefs as I do, it will not affect me one bit. I do not believe in bashing people here or anywhere. If you guys see something wrong with someones post then I would expect a professional way of dealing with it, from a site that has the clientel that expect it. publically bashing individuals here no matter who they are, only causes people to loose faith in what this site stands for. I understand now all of your concerns for Shilling Bids, but I assure you, that we never made any such bids that we did not fully intend to live up to.

[MotownMadman]

http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/shillbidding.html
http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/shillBidding.html

Matt,
The above links will explain in detail about shill bidding using friends, relatives or associates. Hope this helps for the info you wanted. Any more Ebay concerns let me know I will be glad to help out.
Thanks,
MotownMadmanMatt /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[matt murphy]

Motown,

I now fully understand Shill Bidding, and thanks for your response. It was wrong for Mike Kratchmer to do what he did, but I believe they did it because of the way Mike was treated last week. Mike appologised last week to everyone here, and told me he was sorry for having fun, when people here didn't understand his humor, and he didn't understand the rules of this site. I did offer Mike $16,500 for his car the other day before he even thought of Ebay. I know Mike Kratchmer would like to have one of our cars, but can't afford the 50K to 100K that some of them are going for. A few people around Atlanta tried to get Mike to sell it to them for around 20K, if Mike and I would write something about the car that wasn't true so they could remarket the car at a much higher price. Mike said that he was going to put the car on Ebay to give everyone an equal opportunity to purchase it first hand. If my offer was his only bid, at $16,500, he probably would have sold it to me, but would have wanted something thrown in to help him out. That is NOT shill bidding as I see it, or you described it.

Let me ask you this . . . If say Charlie Lillard decides to sell his '69 Berger ZL1 and a few of his friends hear that he is interested in selling it . . . and they offer him 300K for it and he says, No way, it is easily worth much more than that . . . and he decides to put it on Ebay to give everyone an equal opportunity to bid on it, and he sets the reserve at 350K . . . and you, as his friend, made him that 300K offer, then saw it on Ebay . . . and with no bids made . . . you made that same 300K offer as the starting bid ?? . . . and if a few other friends of Charlies, of which around here he has many . . . make him an offer at 305K and then 310K . . . under the reserve or not . . . does that imply that you guys are Shill Bidding to help Charlie get closer to the 350K he wants . . . /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

I think the mistake people made here is that they jumped to the Shill Bidding conclusion before the Ebay ad ran its course. I agree with yours and Robs and others insinuation of the facts at hand, that it could have looked like Shill Bidding . . . but, some people acted against these guys and me when they saw what they assumed was a scam. I can't blame those for thinking that, from your definition of Shill Bidding, it didn't look too straight. Again, both Kratchmer and I made one bid on Ebay to Mike and his car for sale . . . I can't explain why Ebay shows MLK327GA as having 3 bids. I'm not aware of how one person could make three bids like it shows, maybe someone can help me here. I have bought two or three things off Ebay and bidded on maybe two others. I am not an avid Ebayer like you Matt and others, I got my lesson today.

[MotownMadman]

Matt,
In a case like that with Charlies car the thing to do to insure there is no assumption of foul play would be for the prospective buyer friend of Charlie to let the auction run its course as he stated he wanted in an effort to achieve maximum profit. If the auction price goes above what the friend is willing to pay then so be it. However, near the end of the auction the price has not met what the friend is willing to pay then during the last several minutes the friend can place the maximum bid he is willing to pay, if he wins the auction so be it. If someone else outbids also at the last minute, well the friend had the opportunity to bid more. In this case if the friend wins the auction with his max bid it doesnt have the appearence of foul play as the friend was not bidding through the auction giving the appearence of driving up the price. I dont understand why everyone dosent wait until just prior to auction close anyway, that would stop multiple bidders who keep trying to out do each other therefore driving up the cost. Make a last minute bid for the max you will pay and let the computer do the bidding for you at the last moment. You either win or not, and if not you were not tricked into the competetive game which could cause you to regret your purchase later.
Thanks,
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
P.S. Next time you want to list a car or anything on Ebay let me handle it for you to keep the hassle from your life.

[Stuart Adams]

Hey MO, we have traded THONGS for SNOWBIRDS in Havasu. If anyone has questions about the details and workings of ebay see MO, he knows. Lets move on, the car sounds fun and is at a reasonable price despite what has regretfully gone on.

[MotownMadman]

Stuart,
So what are you saying, the snowbirds from the north dont wear thongs? Or are you puzzled by brains to go with the bodies? I am sure if you wander down to the mud shark you can find a few stray thongs! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Motown /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[bbdon]

Matt, My name is Don Coffman. I sell on eBay with the user name Novadon. I guess I took this personally because this is one of the few cars discussed here that I might actually be able to afford, I toyed with the idea of bidding myself. Not seriously, but enough to linger on the auction and this thread for a while.
The situation that you have described hypotheticly is shill bidding and it is about the same to me as stealing from the other bidders. With respect to the car in question, you know the reserve and bid under that number intentionally? Just to bring the bidding up to where you thought is should be? Am I correct? The bid was clearly made with the intention of helping the auction price go higher, not to actually buy the car.
If you, as an experienced businessman cannot see the obvious ethical problem that is created here, I'm speechless, I don't know how to help. I have only had very basic business conduct study from work, but I know this is not right.

[CWilliams]

Matt-
When you reply to my last email I sent (from home) please update me on the "white book". I want one.

Thanks-

[sixtiesmuscle]

Much of what has been discussed here has been a matter of perception and interpretation. Like so many subjects that revolve around these types of arguments, there will always be two sides. Both can be right, and, both can be wrong, to certain degrees. This auction could [and should have] been handled differently, but, it seems the parties have apologized for any perceived deception, so, can't we get in the spirit of the season and cut them a little slack?

There is a situation in which I have found myself relating to a friend's car on Ebay. I knew his asking price, but, not his reserve. I did not want to pay that price, but, I did want to buy the car. Is it unethical for me to bid on this car to test the reserve, as well as, to try to discourage other bidders? I don't think so. As long as there is no collusion, and that's the key, I can bid anyway I want to in order to try to win that auction. Sometimes waiting until the very end works, but, sometimes you lose that way too. The whole auction concept is a game of strategies. I frankly don't buy the idea that other bidders can be "tricked" into bidding more than they "can afford". Then they shouldn't be bidding. Sometimes you get a great deal, and, sometimes you pay too much, but, it's always YOU who hits that submit bid button. If it's more than you want to spend, don't bid.

If this auction had a starting bid of 21.5, or, a "Buy it Now" near that, would we even be having this discussion? Again, should it have been handled in another fashion? Sure, but, let's not make it a death penalty case.

[Jeff H]

Personally, I don't see it as shill bidding if you really are looking to buy something and have the money and place a bid for the amount you're willing to pay for it. It doesn't matter if it's a friend or complete stranger. The problem arises when you know what the reserve is and know that you bid won't meet the reserve. Most people decide to not even bother placing a bid. There's nothing wrong with placing a bid when you know it won't meet the reserve. What happens if the seller decides he needs to move it now and drops the reserve? You could suddenly become the high bidder and it's completely legit. There's definitely shill bidding going on with Ebay, but regardless of that, you have to decide what you're willing to pay for something and place your bid and stick to it. Don't base the items value on what other people bid.

[jg95z28]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't see it as shill bidding if you really are looking to buy something and have the money and place a bid for the amount you're willing to pay for it. It doesn't matter if it's a friend or complete stranger. The problem arises when you know what the reserve is and know that you bid won't meet the reserve.

[/ QUOTE ]Jeff, that is exactly what shill bidding is. You know the seller, you know the reserve, you know your bid will raise the price, however you aren't on the hook to buy the item because you're under the reserve price.

I actually have less of a problem with this type of action even though it is specifically considered a no-no by ebay. The bigger problem is two friends come on a messageboard and talk up a car that another friend is selling and pretend like they don't know who each other is or all the details. No one came clean until Aloha Jeff caught them red handed. That to me is bad business and can be potentially damaging to a company like GMMG.

These guys are actually lucky someone doesn't come along and creates a dummy account and bids up the price past the reserve. Why? Because if the bid goes past the reserve and the phoney-winning bidder neglects payment, the seller will still be responsible for the ebay fees on the selling price. (You'll have a rough time getting a credit back from ebay.) I've seen this happen time and time again on smaller items, so I'm sure it happens on their bigger auctions as well. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[Jeff H]

Jeff, I disagree with you on that being shill bidding. If you are honestly interested in the item and place a bid of what you are willing to pay for it, then that is totally legit even if your bid doesn't meet the reserve. If you are placing a bid on an item and know that your bid is below the reserve and you have no intention of ever buying the item, then that is shill bidding. I've placed bids on stuff knowing what the reserve was and that I wasn't willing to pay that much so I put in the amount I was willing to pay. The item didn't meet the reserve and I was the high bidder. The seller contacted me and sold the item to me at my price. I'm not defending anyone, but I think people are looking at shill bidding the wrong way. It's obvious that it happens on Ebay and when it does, you move on to another item.

[Kim_Howie]

I have a big problem with two people comming on this board acting like they don't know each other and posting like they did. THAT'S NOT HOYLE /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif jmo

[jg95z28]

I must have misunderstood. I thought Matt and Mike admitted to knowing the reserve price before bidding on their friend's car. That is what I was referring to as "shill bidding."

[Jeff H]

I think they did know the reserve, but that's no reason not to place your bid if you are really interested in the car. I agree with Kim though, that going on to a public board and talking up an item like that could cause problems.

[hvychev]

Rumor on the street is that this car doesn't belong to Mike Carnahan. I think that the only way to know for sure is if a digital picture (not a scan) is posted on this site of the title showing who the owner really is.

[Stitch]

Ebay refund all seller fees in the event of a Non Paying Bidder . Takes 10 days from the time you file the NPB alert ,which must be filed between 7 and 45 days after the listing ended , for the amount to be credited to your ebay account.

[Charley Lillard]

Hawaiian Jeff posted IP addresses as facts. Frank if you have a fact by all means post it in a polite way but "Rumor has it" is just Crap. I don't blame Members for being Mad at the knucklehead moves to lead us on but stick to known facts.

[LVCamaro]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets move on, the car sounds fun and is at a reasonable price despite what has regretfully gone on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Stu, here. There's no sense in letting a regretful situation escalate into a more regretful situation. Apparently, most have said their peace in forum posts and I suggest that further follow-up [if need be] be handled off the forum via PM/email. I've already noticed mention of this thread on a couple other sites, and it's becoming personal and uglier than it should be. Several people have a FEW facts, but probably NOBODY has ALL the facts. Let's stop this before someone is hurt. There ain't a used car on the planet worth that happening. There have been several board members mention that this sYc Forum is like a big family, that sometimes fights amongst themselves...I think that's true. How 'bout we label this one the "best of the week", but put the swords down now and move on. Apologies don't cost anything, and if some are owed...I would hope those people can settle their issues off line. I have PM'd both Jeff C. and Matt M. in the last day, or so, about my perception of this thread. If what I said in my PM's offended either of you...I apologize for the offense [but not what I said my perceptions are], sincerely. I hope nobody has been irreparably damaged.

SS

[Denis]

And there's always the upside that y'all have to admit the dancing banana icon was pretty cool.

http://www.corvettes-musclecars.com/yenko.net/busted.gifhttp://www.corvettes-musclecars.com/yenko.net/busted.gif http://www.corvettes-musclecars.com/yenko.net/busted.gif http://www.corvettes-musclecars.com/yenko.net/busted.gif

[hvychev]

Charley what is <font color="brown">CRAP </font> is the fact that someone has been caught red handed shill bidding and it is justified and they are being defended. That is all the FACT that needs to be known!

Charley as a moderator of this site please don't support a double standard. If I or someone else of "less caliber" was caught shill bidding especially on a high dollar purchase like a car we would be hung upside down by our nuts! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[Belair62]

That was actually the best part of the thread !! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[GRB]

Here's yet another two cents worth! As one who would not have a clue how to buy or sell on E-bay I probably wouldn't think much about it if a friend asked me to register and start the bidding (well) below the reserve price. I would, however, become suspicious if that person asked me to push the bid up once it got started and especially if that price was at or above the reserve. Matt has always been up front with me and I would tend to give hive the benefit of the doubt in this situation. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif JMHO

[Charley Lillard]

Frank... I like to think I treat everybody the same. If you think GMMG is getting better treatment than somebody else that is your opinion but if you make more rumor accusations after I asked you not to I will Ban you from the site.

[hvychev]

WHAT????????????????????????????????????????????

[Charley Lillard]

Its time to close this thread....