Is this a copo camaro motor?

[resto4u]

This engine is for sale on ebay. Claims to be a copo camaro engine. My books do not list this as a camaro copo engine, but listed as special high performance. Ebay copo engine (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2453650878&category=33 615&rd=1) Thanks,Roger

[KNAPPY]

69 Passenger car (Impala?) 425 horse manual, spec. high perf.

[Z28DZ]

The motor has the same "good" stuff, but the LD suffix indicates it was intended for installation in a 1969 passenger car.

[Unreal]

Would it be any more or less correct on a COPO than a 425 HP CE coded motor?

[Supercar_Kid]

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be any more or less correct on a COPO than a 425 HP CE coded motor?

[/ QUOTE ]Personally I'd consider it to be "less correct" if there is such a thing. Technically, a CE block could have been installed at a dealer under warranty, so a CE would make sense being in say a '69 COPO Camaro or Chevelle, however, under no circumstances would it make sense for a passenger car (Impala, Biscayne, Caprice, etc.) coded 427 block to be installed in a Camaro or Chevelle, unless it was pirated from the said passenger car and installed by a shade tree mechanic. But then again, there's only one engine a given car can have to be "THE original engine" and that's the very one it left the factory with. Anything else is just a NOM. A CE block that was dealer installed with the paperwork to back it up would be be the best NOM to have IMO.

[Jeff H]

I would say the CE engine would be more correct. But I know from talking to people who worked at Chevrolet dealerships that they would pull an engine out of a car and swap it into a different car so it could have happened. Makes you wonder how many full size 427 cars actually left the dealership with a lesser 396 wearing all the 427 emblems and stickers.

[Unreal]

Erik, Jeff,
I guess what I'm asking is, if a guy has a COPO with a missing engine, and he has access to a CE block and an LD block, would installing the CE block make the car more valuable than installing the LD block?

More personally, would the installation of a CE block in my Yenko Tribute Car make it more valuable than if I installed any 4 bolt 512 block?

[Supercar_Kid]

More valuable, less valuable...these are matters of opinion, as a car is only truly worth whatever you can get someone to give you for it at any given time. To me, if a car is missing it's original engine, then any other engine you put in it is going to be a replacement engine (i.e. the wrong engine) so it doesn't make a ton of difference to me. While a properly coded, date correct engine, like say an engine out of another car identical to the one with the missing engine, built at or around the very same time, is somewhat better. How much better, that's hard to say, but if it were my COPO Camaro missing it's original engine I'd rather have another Camaro MN 427 to replace it with, if not that then a "generic" CE coded replacement. Again, that's just a matter of personal preference as both engines are equally NOMs, I just seem to value an engine a little more if it was installed in an equally rare, performance oriented vehicle when it was new. It has a bit of history of it's own I guess you could say. But as far as a clone car goes, I wouldn't spend big $$$ looking for properly coded and dated parts, so long as visually they appear correct. Here a CE block or one from a passenger car seem equally appropriate to me, since neither should be passed off as the original engine in a clone, and both would be equally as easy to dress up like the MN that it isn't. I wouldn't worry about stampings or codes on a clone, I'd make sure it was a solid lifter 69 era 427 and go from there. Find a 163 intake, of any date code, a correct appearing carb, alternator etc. Would I pay $800-900 for an 837 alternator? No way, but if that means a lot to you on your clone that's your decision to make. I think it's most important that a clone has the same effect on someone as a real supercar would have on the original onwer when it was new. When most people bought a COPO or Yenko back in '69, they didn't know if their block said 512, or MN, or CE or whatever, all they knew was that it was a solid lifter 427 that would RUN! That's the same effect I'd go after in a clone car, using all correct appearing '69 vintage parts where necessary, and the rest as far as codes and what not I wouldn't worry too much. If you could photograph the car and not be able to tell it wasn't taken in '69...then that's a good clone. If you open the hood and see HEI, a 454 balancer, and a bunch of other "modern" goodies then it isn't much of a clone IMO, it's a street machine. But everyone should build what they're after, and to please themselves, not to worry about how valuable it will be now or ten years down the road. Clones are great for creating an automotive experience that otherwise can't happen for some people, without real supercars, or the $$$ to seek one out, myself included, I just think that if you're gonna go to the trouble of building a "clone" of something, it should at least be an exact visual duplicate of the real thing, sans the important numbers that help to determine that it is or isn't the real deal. Again, this is all just my opinion on things, and everyone is entitled to their own. Build what makes you happy, but putting Yenko stripes on an otherwise run of the mill big block Camaro doesn't make it a "clone" or tribute or whatever in my eyes. I've seen this done all too many times, these are the cars you'll see on ebay that were SS396 trimmed last week.

[lzdick]

Wheew ! ! ! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Could you repeat that? I'm not sure I got it all the first time. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif I dozed off three times while reading all of that! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[Salvatore]

Supercar...You said it all! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Unreal]

Geez Erik,
By the time I finished reading your response, I forgot the question, so I had to reread the question. Then, by the time I finished reading your response, I forgot the question, so I had to reread it. Then, by the time I finished reading your response, I forgot the question, so I had to reread it.

Anyone remember the computer "Do Loop"?

I understand about opinion, and I also recognize that something is only worth what someone will pay. If only one person will pay a certain amount (his opinion) you have a sale, but not necessarily the "market price". If many people have the same opinion of worth, then it becomes the market price. (anyone remember Prof Rachley at Pitt, and his supply and demand graph)

Bottom line is I traded my 512 two bolt short block for a 512 CE coded 4 Bolt (F 5 9, so it's a 427, not a 454). I did not do it for monetary gain, nor to try to make my car any more "real". I did it to make it a more accurate tribute car. Hagerty man suggested I raise the value of the car when I get the CE motor in it, which I plan to do. (It's currently insured for $30,000)I was asking for confirmation of the anticipated increase in value (if any) from some of the movers and shakers in the hobby.
Thanks again for the input.

[Supercar_Kid]

Sorry for the lengthy post guys, but you asked for an opinion and sometimes it takes me more than 2 sentences to express mine.

Unreal, first you began asking about a CE in a COPO, then about one in your tribute car. Comparing a COPO to a tribute car is like comparing apples to oranges, and there are lots of things to take into consideration when trying to determine "market value" of a true COPO or clone car. Hence...my lengthy post.

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line is I traded my 512 two bolt short block for a 512 CE coded 4 Bolt (F 5 9, so it's a 427, not a 454). I did not do it for monetary gain, nor to try to make my car any more "real". I did it to make it a more accurate tribute car. Hagerty man suggested I raise the value of the car when I get the CE motor in it, which I plan to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

A 2 bolt for a 4 bolt is a good trade, since neither motor would be "correct" for a clone/tribute anyhow, so who cares what the code says, if it's a true 4 bolt 427. This swap may in fact increase the "market value" of the car, but not too dramatically IMO. But again, the only way to determine this is an attempt at selling it, where ultimately, it's only worth what the highest bidder will pay on that particular day. Personally, I doubt it would fetch much more with a CE than any other comparable block (i.e. any 512 4 bolt)but that's for you, the purchaser, and the Hagerty man to decide. Personally, I understand your reasoning behind trading a 2 bolt for a 4, but if the 4 bolt was an LD and your 2 bolt was a CE, I'd still have swapped for the 4 bolt since neither would be the "right" engine for a clone/tribute car no matter what code is on it.

I guess the original question should have been, "Is a 512 4 bolt better than my 512 2 bolt, for use in a clone/tribute?" To that I'd have said "Yes." Or if you asked "Will installing a 512 4 bolt instead of a 512 2 bolt increase the value of my clone/tribute any?" I'd have said "try to sell it and find out."

Does that make sense? I Hope I didn't lose anyone back there... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Kim_Howie]

The thing in this picture that everybody is missing is using correct dated parts on a clone is using up the supply of parts for the REAL cars. I not saying any thing against clones but why use them when anything would work JMO http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[Supercar_Kid]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing in this picture that everybody is missing is using correct dated parts on a clone is using up the supply of parts for the REAL cars. I not saying any thing against clones but why use them when anything would work JMO http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But as far as a clone car goes, I wouldn't spend big $$$ looking for properly coded and dated parts, so long as visually they appear correct. Here a CE block or one from a passenger car seem equally appropriate to me, since neither should be passed off as the original engine in a clone, and both would be equally as easy to dress up like the MN that it isn't. I wouldn't worry about stampings or codes on a clone, I'd make sure it was a solid lifter 69 era 427 and go from there.

[/ QUOTE ] This is what I'm saying... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Unreal]

I think if I were trying to pass off the car as real, or the motor as original, I would not be calling myself "Unreal" and especially would not posting the questions in the way I have been.

You are correct, Kim when you say "using up the available parts on a clone is making them less available for the real cars."
That would hold true for anything from engines to bumper bolts. You know what they say about what talks and what walks.
If someone were to make me an offer I couldn't refuse, the motor is theirs. Otherwise, I guess I'll "preserve" it in my Tribute Car, until someone wants it bad enough.

Did not mean for this to turn into another "clone" debate.

[Jeff H]

Personally, I don't see what difference it makes if someone who can't afford the real thing goes to the trouble to build a "tribute" car or clone as accurately as possible. Yes, the parts are getting harder to find, but nobody has exclusive rights to them. This is a hobby to a lot of people and to some, restoring a tribute car as accurately as possible is the closest they will come to owning the real thing. If I were building a COPO clone, I would go with the CE engine over the big car engine.

[Supercar_Kid]

Don't get me wrong, I can see this argument from both sides of the fence. I just thought the original question was about finding a more correct block for a real car, and its adding value, which I think it would a lot more in a real car than the same engine would in a clone/tribute, as they appeal to two entirely different types of buyers with entirely different intentions for their cars. This is a very complex debate, and sometimes leads to lengthy posts above. I personally wouldn't shell out the market value for some of these dated parts for a clone, since I don't think they're integral to the overall purpose of a clone/tribute car's being built. For a real car, sure, the rare parts are worth the big $$$ to have a "more complete" real car in the end, which is what we're all after right?

Jeff makes a valid point too, no one is owed these rare parts because they happen to have a real car. Market value is determined by all the people that want them, for whatever the intended purpose. There are lots of people who have real supercar parts but no real supercars, myself included, and I don't see anyone lining up to give us a deal on a real car. I guess that's the rub of the free market society, but that's the good ol' US of A. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[WILMASBOYL78]

Maybe all clone engines should have the block decked. No more letters, no more numbers, no more problem!

Tom Williams

[Mark_C]

Then there would be no "real" parts to go with the "real" cars.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Unreal]

who said it was a problem?

[Belair62]

Yeah but..if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around to hear it fall...does it really make any noise ?

[Kim_Howie]

Like I alway if looks like sh-t Smells ,like sh-t it's Sh-t
JUST MY THINKING

[Unreal]

Yeah but..if a husband makes a statement in the middle of the forest and his wife is not around to hear it, is he still wrong?

[Unreal]

That LD code motor just sold for $5000.