Fake Z/28 tag alert

[SamLBInj]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2454142111&category=61 61#ebayphotohosting
Sam

[Mark_C]

Why? Looks OK to me. I've got an X11 tag image 7 VIN number away and they look the same to me.

[KENNY_PASCOE]

TAG LOOKS OK TO ME. AM I MISSING SOMETHING??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Salvatore]

Hey Sammy, Give us a hint! Thanks, Sam

[Jeff H]

If you look at the car, it has the automatic brake pedal and no sign of a 4 speed hole in the tunnel. I would tend to think the tag was added to the car. I think that's what he's referring to. The tag might be legit, but not to that car.

[Mr. T]

The cowltag also looks good to me!

[camarojoe]

Because its now an automatic its a fake Z? Can you see through the carpeting to tell there has never been a 4 speed hole under it? The rivets holding the tag on look good, as does the power disc brakes. My guess is that its a real Z thats just been cut and hacked up over the years, converted to an auto, motor swaps, etc. Maybe it IS a fake Z, http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif but i sure wouldn't make that statement solely based on the pics I see in that auction.

[Jeff H]

Geez, I thought that carpet was the bare metal floor and tunnel, didn't realize it was actually a faded carpet. I think Sam is probably referring to the fact that the tag is completely stripped of paint so it sticks out looking like it was added. The automatic brake pedal still would throw up a flag, especially with the disc brake pedal. But the trim tag date does line up with the VIN so it could be the original tag for the car.

[LeMans Blue X77]

Looks FAKE!!!
X77 cars had no Chrome on the roof rails or grills in the Quarter panels. I know these and the brake pedal could have been added but I've also been told that new cowl tag rivets can be located as well.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[jg95z28]

[ QUOTE ]
Because its now an automatic its a fake Z? Can you see through the carpeting to tell there has never been a 4 speed hole under it? The rivets holding the tag on look good, as does the power disc brakes. My guess is that its a real Z thats just been cut and hacked up over the years, converted to an auto, motor swaps, etc. Maybe it IS a fake Z, http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif but i sure wouldn't make that statement solely based on the pics I see in that auction.

[/ QUOTE ]Not to mention a full interior color swap from red to black. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Leonard]

The rivits look as if they were re installed. Look close at the rivit on the right(inside hole). Rivit does not seem secure to the firewall. Could be the original tag that was removed,then re applied.

[Norm reynolds]

note 718 = red standard interior My eyes might be bad but this car look like it has a black interior

[Mr Yenko]

Not for nothin, but I bet that combo would look AWESOME! RED/RED........ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif "MOF"

[resto4u]

If you look at the tag real close you notice a few things. There is a tape line on the tag where there is still paint on the tag. It appears they taped around the tag and applied paint remover to the tag. Also is a flap of paint in the bottom left corner, paint from the tag? And paint remover would explain the spots on the metal tag. My opinion is it has not been removed, the revits holes have paint flakes from the paint remover or sealer from the factory. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif Roger

[MotownMadman]

Although it is hard to reach any stable conclusion from a photograph, I tend to agree with Rodger that the tag has not been removed. How then to explain the wrong color interior, faded carpet with automatic and matching brake pedal? After thinking on this for a bit, I had to remember that as far back as the late seventies I as well as many others were already rebuilding and reassembling these cars. Many times two cars became one. The original Z could have been stolen and stripped, or a multitude of other situations that would have left a bare body, along comes another Camaro with black interior and auto trans that may have been smacked hard enough to not warrant a repair, next thing you know someone handy with tools and knowledge and a budget and two cars become one. I assembled a 73 Z in exactly that way in 1981 with interior color change, when finished the car looked new, but I bet today 22 years later it looks like a faded worn original. This would be my best guess on this car, truth would be known by pulling the carpet on the tranny tunnel.
Motown http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[allcamaro]

Has anyone bothered to call the owner and ask the question because he put his phone number in the add.I sure hope no one bidding is reading this. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[SamLBInj]

I think if you are selling a first gen Z/28 you should explain in the add why it has an automatic, wrong interior, wrong pedals, no bumperettes, a brillo pad scrubbed cowltag without even a minor scratch on the firewall from hitting the edges and a host of other questionable items. The add is not saying much and it should...either he dont know or he should explain better..
Sam

[allcamaro]

I agree, but remember that some people dont put near as much value on the cars as we do.

[Leonard]

Im not saying it not the original tag. My opinion, its been removed at one point and someone put the original rivits back in place. The rivit on the right side does not have its inner flange(part of rivit that grips firewall inside cowl area) secure to the firewall. Look inside the rivit hole. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Charley Lillard]

It doesn't look to me like it has been removed. And it still lays flat against the firewall. Usually ones that have been taken off get tweaked and look stupid.

[camarojoe]

I still say its a legit Z, just not a very "unmolested" one. The guy doesn't even boast about it being a Z/28, and seems way more interested in telling you about all the speed parts he's thrown at it... and if you'll note, nothing ELSE on the car is done to the level that you can't tell its been hacked at, so i don't think he is an expert tag swapper. Looks to me like its been riveted to that firewall since 1969. If it was a fake or swapped out tag, odds are good he wouldnt give you an ultra close up of it to scrutinize either, which he in fact does. I also don't think its impossible to imagine a car that doesn't have its original interior in it either... I know alot of guys who HATED colored interiors in their cars and switch it to black on everything they've ever owned. As for the disc brake pedal pad, its not like they're very rare or tough to come by either. Anyone call the guy? Anyone even interested in it? Or are we all just nitpickin'? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[hvychev]

We are nitpicking AGAIN! But................who am I to say anything. If I do say anything then a diamond certified judge will just correct me in another post. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[Belair62]

Frank...we would threaten to spank you but we think you may like it...you must be coming down from that booger sugar...you sound cranky !! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[55chevy]

As far as the brake pedal goes.. Anyone whos ever converted Automatic cars to 4-speed and 4-speed cars to Automatic like I have knows how easy it is to swap out the pedals.. Takes 5 minutes. I'd be asking to see some pics of the firewall and frame to see if the rest of the 4spd brakets and crap is there. If the car had a column mounted shifter or a more "factory" looking auto shifter setup between the seats I'd say that would be a red flag.. but the shifter he's got in it would be something you'd put in a car that didn't have a factory automatic shifter assembly.. ya think?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[rpoz11]

I actually looked up another X77 Tag info I kept and the trim tag and the VIN seem to line up for the Norwood run. The X77 tag Im lookin at has a 06A NOR346xxx and 124379N639xxx VIN run. Appears to me to coincide with what the Garnet Red car here is showing. I thought it to be an early VIN for the 02A but who know's! I imagine we can all guess as to why GM did what they did back then. Several discussions have arose out here on VN cars and their tags; differentiations to the VIN-Trim Tag run seperations. Any spread between the VIN assignments and actual Trim Tag # seperations could be accounted for in option demand supplies to a car's run and ordering: what may have been ordered may not have allowed the car to continue down an assembly awaiting whatever was needed. Thus, seperating the tag apart...just my 2 cents worth... Tag looks correct; signs of warpage would be present had it been removed/replaced around the rivet areas.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Mark_C]

A VIN of N639xxx is a very early 05A car, not 06A. Mine is N636xxx (almost N637xxx)and it's 04L. 3000 cars at Norwood is about 4 days production. The last recorded April car shipped in April was 9N637019. So that car was built no later than about 5/10/69 and probably earlier.

[rpoz11]

Sorry to disagree with you but the GM tag I have states exactly what I posted! I also ran across an X77 Today at the Swap Meet with an 05B/N613xxx VIN. Must be some rather good seperation times on some of these!

[Mark_C]

Not disputing what you posted, I'm just telling you either the trim tag or the VIN did not come on that car when it left the factory.

VINs were assigned AFTER the body was scheduled to be built and are more or less sequential by calendar dates. There is no way a N613xxx vin was on an 05B built car when it left the factory. A car with N613xxx Vins is a late February car, and should have a body number in the NOR26xxxx to NOR28xxxx range. An 05B car will have a body number in the 32xxxx or up range

Thats a swapped tag.

[rpoz11]

OK...I will tend to lean your way on your thinking of this as over the years of looking at these I'd tend to agree with you. However...There are some cars Ive seen years ago disputing this conversation. I didnt take the time to record them all as I didnt see a need then for it. I assume you are speaking for the red car here on eBay that started this post. An X77 Tag I have here in fromt of me states this: HOLD ON! Ah...I see my mistake now. I am posting the trim tag run #. I had it written seperately on a piece of paper...My Mistake! I apologize! So many cars; so many VIN's!! Man I should do a better record of this. Folks I apologize for my misquoting here!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[Kim_Howie]

So the trim tag on the red car on E-bay is probably correct. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Mark_C]

Yes, the tag looks good, and matches up with the VIN, timewise.