rebodied with out salvage a title

[Norm reynolds]

I tried to post this on the other post but was lock out http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif I MUST post this as I have found it was not legal
Ok guys we have a serous problem I have read this post and was 85 % sure but waited to talk to a friend of mine that’s a judge I ask him if I bought a car for x amount of money as been a special car and found out that some one took a car that was in bad shape and took the fire wall of this car with the vin number on it and rebody the rest from another car do I have a case to sue in court He told me if the car has a clean title in Pa and in many other states its illegal The car MUST have either a salvage or a reconstructed title If the car has a clean title and was embodied the person who did the work and if the person selling the car knows that it was rebodied is looking at some serous jail time He said if the car has a clean title that the car IS worthless because sooner or later some one WILL get burn on this car He said the law was made because of just this type of thing to stop people that would try to get big money for a cut up car With a salvage or reconstructed title forces one to sell a car for much less Now as for someone that goes on this site with this information and then gets burn to the stake is wrong I though that is what this site was all about to keep things clean and legal but it seems that once again its all about the money and who cares if its legal Its buyer beware Lets not talk about it because some one might get mad I WILL be putting this cars vin number in my clone data base because that’s were it belongs its worth more in parts
T

[70 copo]

Norm,

I recall this topic (rebody) about a year ago. It was well discussed here on this board. Take a look back you will find the thread.

Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Norm reynolds]

Yes I know about the post last year BUT on The yenko post someone got burn to the stake because he reported a car that was rebodied this is worng http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gifbecause it not legal if the car has a clean title I would rather for some one pull the vin and trim tag put then along with the title and frame it then and hag it on the wall I did just that in 1971 with a 67 GTX I had

[COPO]

I'm not sure a salvage title would warn a buyer. It seems to me an owner could just sell a car on a bill of sale. I know in my state they don't issue titles on older vehicles.

[Charley Lillard]

I can see your point with newer cars but back in their day old cars were pretty smashed up and repaired but did not need to have salvage titles. This was a running registered car that was untubbed by taking a large part from another car. It might not be your cup of Tea but I don't think that makes it a salvage title car or a rebody.

[Norm reynolds]

Charley I know what you are saying but the laws have and are changing faster than I can type From what I have been told the federal government is taking a hard stand on this Too many law suites

[Norm reynolds]

ON a Corvette site I was just reading that in California they are on the war wagon again to out law old cars it never ends I know that this was bought up a few year ago but the environmental whackos are at it again Like I said the laws are changing so fast
If you wanted to start to build 69 Camaros with today’s laws you could not built them like they did in 69

[jfkheat]

At what point should a car be considered a rebody? I think if over half of the car has been replaced it should be considered a rebody. It seems to me that things are different when a $100,000 car is involved. If this were a $20,000 Camaro everyone would be talking trash about it. This is just my opinion.
James

[resto4u]

A salvage title is only issued when a car is wrecked in an accident and cannot be fixed. insurance claim is paid for totalled car or a theft recovery. A restored car doesn't meet those terms. But i am not a big fan of cut the car in half, but the car values have kind of encouraged it to be done. Roger

[Norm reynolds]

As I was told money does not matter I was doing some more research today and you would be surprised I have be out on disability for the last four years and out of the business man has things changed every body is law suite happy and with that came the reconstructed titles There are soo many law changes even street rod builders are throwing in the towel I have talked to many people and things are only getting worse
Restored cars that are rebodied does meet the reconstructed title law at first I did not believe it but like I said before every body is law suite happy so there is the law change like I said in the beginning it is not in all states but wait a few years its coming

[Pantera]

In in the eyes of most states, the fact is that it was just repaired back to original condition is legal. A salvage title has come into use, more in just the last 20 years or so because the insurance companys have finally pushed for the use of them to keep them from having to pay for the same car twice. Salvage title laws have been on the books of most states for years, but not all and some states without a Title on their cars can clean a salvage title by registering it in that state. Thank goodness the authorities are starting to close those loopholes. Newer cars with the longer vin #'s can't get away with this but the collector car that we all love are not on this list.

If a car is totally destroyed then there is no need for a "Salvage title" because it is crushed and no longer exists. But when a wrecked car is re-bodied or has major frame damage repaired and put back on the street then it will be forced to have a salvage title which is a different color of title,just to alert potental buyers that it has had major damage and has been repaired. There are way too many wrecked cars out there that are being put back on the road and the salvage title is the best way to police them.
Now the law that you are refering to is where it pertains to the vin # on the w/s post and the hidden #'s on the frame or cowl. It is a federal law to remove them or alter them in any way. Thats a $10,000 fine plus jail time. But if they are not disturbed then in their eyes, it is just a car that has been repaired.

We in this industry need to push our congress men to re-write the law and close this loophole. Also the feds need to enforce the laws on the books but they never do. They only care if it has to do with drugs or bombs. White collar crimes are almost totally ignored.

There is a big difference in what you are saying and mind you, I am not saying you are totally wrong. But it really depends on the state and what year the car in question was "re-bodied"? If it has been some time since the car was repaired, then if may not be illegal.

Now somewhere in between all this, we all feel that there is some kind of fraud involved when that repaired car is sold with out disclosing the fact to the new owner. I think there is a law now on the books that he has to disclose major repairs.

One thing is that the new buyer has a good case for a civil lawsuit because the value is not the same as one that had never been repaired to such a large extent. But ONLY if you have it in writing that the seller is declaring the car is "original" and not altered. Run don't walk from anyone that refuses to sign one if you are putting your hard earned money out on one.

Unfortunly those are just a pissing contest in the eyes of the courts and most of the time I doubt that the injured party would prevail or get any monetary restution. In my state you only have 3 yrs to sue on a verbal contract and 5 yrs on a written one. I am sure that every state has different laws on this which make it like walking through a mine field if you are out of your state and are unfamilar with the area you are buying the car in.

Above all else!!! Do your research. Knowledge is king!! I think that this forum and the knowledge it contains is the best prevention from buying a fraud or " re-builder" that someone could find.

Perhaps this group should formulate a petiton to congress and try to get some teeth in the laws and close the loop holes.??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Laws only change when injured people get someone to make campain promises to change them.

[Norm reynolds]

Larry I agree with you on what you are saying The car in question was on another post and it was stated that the car was butcher up and that some one took the fire wall and welded it to back to another car That to me is a reconstructed car just because they did not alter the vin number means that the car is worth big money It must be disclosed when its up for sale as an altered car If you know about it and is ok with it then go ahead and buy it
I my self do not feel it is the right thing to do Who knows how good was the welder that did the work WILL it hold up The car is only as good as the person that did the work As I said before this is not in all states That is why I feel that it is real important that if a car is alter it must be disclosed If you try to get big money for it you will end up paying big money in a lawsuit I am like all of the people here in preserving the classic cars But how far do you go to restore a car there has to be a point where you have to say it’s dead

[Charley Lillard]

But this car was not dead. It was a running , driving car.

[Norm reynolds]

Ok Charley maybe I miss understood I thought that the car in question was all butcher up from its drag racing days and some one re-bodied it from the back of the fire wall if that’s not the case the I sorry I wrong about that car sometimes because of my head injury I get things mixed up

[Charley Lillard]

It was a old drag car that was turned into a Pro street car years ago. Then recently it was untubbed. Somewhere in the other thread it is described. If it were a dead shell that someone just cut the firewall out of and welded to another car I would have other thoughts but this was a running car that happened to have most of the floors cut out for tubbing. We will discuss this till infinity.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Charley, What's your logic about the car was 'running' vs not running? If the race drivetrain was gone, would it still be ok? I think the firewall resto method should be disclosed, maybe not illegal, but why not just tell the truth? What is so stinkin hard about being honest?

[Charley Lillard]

Marlin. I don't know if any logic is involved. And yes I agree that it would be nice if the repairs were disclosed. Hard for me to think a car should have a Salvage Title assigned to it if it was a running , driving Pro Street car. Should every Pro Street Camaro get a Salvage Title if they attempt to put them back stock ? Maybe Brian can clarify just where in the front floorpan the splice is. We will always be discussing what constitutes a rebody and I know I don't think I will ever have a Cut and dried Black and white opinion.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Agreed.
Honesty is still the best solution, but usually greed prevails.

[Norm reynolds]

A-Men http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Mr. T]

Could someone tell me what a "tubbed" car is? Since I have never raced and keep my Camaro's all original, I am not sure what this term means. Thanks! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Charley Lillard]

tubbed is when you want to put a really large tire under a car you cut out the wheel houses and parts of the floor to accomidate the large wheels. Camaros are unibody so usually you are also cutting out the part of the floor that incorporates the frame. Then some new Iron is usually to tied subframe connectors that now hold the rear suspension. Basically you are cutting out most of the floor in the back half of the car.

[Mr. T]

Thanks Charley. I knew it had something to do with racing.

[jimbo]

It is my understanding in Michigan that a firewall with a VIN is a car. You can replace anything forward or back as long as the VIN tag does not come off.A rebody ,in my eyes, would be removing the VIN tag and putting it on another body. If a VIN tag is removed, replace a dash panel on a Camaro or a windshield pillar on a Vette the state issues a new VIN and title. I believe it will be an assembled title.Street rods usually have VINs like this.

[Charley Lillard]

And to really screw things up... Many first Gen Camaros have had their Dashes replaced because of rust at the base of the windshield. To do that you have to remove the vin plate from the old dash and attach it to the new one..Would that constitute a rebody ? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
And to really screw things up... Many first Gen Camaros have had their Dashes replaced because of rust at the base of the windshield. To do that you have to remove the vin plate from the old dash and attach it to the new one..Would that constitute a rebody ? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

In a word...No. In this situation you are repairing a car, removing the VIN and then putting it back on the same car. At least on most GM vehicles the VIN plate is rivited to something metal. The scariest thing are the e-body Mopars (cudas and challengers) the VIN plate is rivited to the dashpad which is completely unboltable from the car. I have heard of horror stories of many a bone-head pulling out their dash to be reuphostered by Year One or other companies and leaving the VIN plate still attached, then getting the dash back minus the VIN plate. Year One used to warn people that under Georgia law, if they received the pad with the VIN plate attached, they had to turn the VIN tag over to the DMV. -OUCH!

[Norm reynolds]

Charley I do not feel that would be considered a re body you are putting it back on the same car A re-body to me is when you take the vin and trim tag and put them on a different car or when some one takes the fire wall and weld it up to a different car

[sixtiesmuscle]

As a wise man said recently, opinions will vary on what a "rebody" is. We just have to agree to disagree, and, move on. The problem, as I see it, is compounded when a person who "heard about" what was done to a cetain car, takes that limited information, and, applies THEIR definition to the work done. My feeling is, unless YOU saw the work being done, or, accurate pictures to back up your opinion, it's better to keep your opinion to your self.

[SULLY]

Hi Guys. Thought I would jump in here.
I am a long time reader and first time poster.
I don't think we will ever be able to agree on what
constitutes a "rebody". The problem that we have on the
post about a certain car that was deleted is if this forum should allow people to post negative information about
someones car. Whether the info is true or untrue is NOT
the point the "damage has been done". People will remember
years later and question the car. That being said I should say (before someone else does) that I do own a 69 Yenko Camaro that was crashed in Nov of 71. The car was damaged down the right side along with severe cowl damage. It was repaired back then with some new sheet metal and a used door. The cowl and front floor were hammered out the best they could. When I bought the car almost 4 years ago I was well aware of the damage. After having several body and frame people look at it it was decided by me to replace the cowl along with most of the front floor. I also replaced the right 1/4 and outer wheelhouse as it had been brazed on. I found a donor car and had it done. It is documented by pictures. This is a 13,000 mile original engine car.
Do I have a Yenko? a Rebody? Several people on this board know this car and what has been done. I think it would be hard for me to sell this car without giving someone this information. It is only right. The car is now in it's final
assembly stage and I will post a picture soon.

Thanks..........Sully

[bbg]

I have been associated with paint and body work in NC for many years. Cars here are classified as "totaled" not so much by the amount of damage, but by the dollar cost to repair the vehicle. Several factors are considered such as the value of the vehicle per NADA, and the salvage value of the vehicle. If it is decided not to repair the vehicle, often the owner has the chance to buy the vehicle back and the title is unchanged. If it is sold as salvage the titles are turned in to the state. If it is then bought to be rebuilt it is inspected upon completion by the DMV and a salvage title is issued so the potential buyer is aware it was salvaged out. There are a lot of fairly new high end vehicles repaired with substantial damage though that is done so at the direction of the insurance company. It is about economics. What is the most cost effective solution. Insurance companies here can specify used parts which drastically reduces the actual repair costs. The better salvage yards here even inventory vehicles by color and often you can request a door, pickup truck bed, etc. in the color you need and surf the hotlines for yards until you find it. These are well run, quality yards that sell only quality parts with no or minimal damage. You don't wander around in these yards either. They no longer view their parts as junk, and do not want someone carelessly opening a door into another door and damaging it. Yes, you may have to paint the exterior of the door and blend it to the rest of the car, but you wont have to break it down to trim it out. Of course this is a substantial labor savings for the insurance company and actually gives you a better repair as it is an undisturbed original part with factory paint, noise deadeners, rust preventatives, etc. I personally would much rather have a good clean used door or fender as a new one. An example that comes to mind was a new Lincoln 2 door. It was hit hard in the rear end and nearly flat to the back glass. A rear clip was located in the same color and the car cut in half at the floor pan and the windshield post. The rear clip was perfect as received and when welded on the only paint needed was about a foot on the windshield posts and 2 feet on the rocker. The paint matched perfect. This car was repaired in 4 days and looked great. Granted it would be really great if it had not been hit, but I think this repair was much better than ordering the rear structure in pieces and building it back. Another was a pickup truck that was reframed. Try it. That is a job. I could go on and on but clipping is an accepted industry standard and heavy damage will be repaired if it is monetarily feasible, and industry standards regard the repair as safe if done by a reputable certified shop. As to how this relates to Camaros, the COPO, Yenko, ZL1, etc. were quite expensive when new and I think the majority of owners were of higher income and treated them with more respect than the 18 year old kid who bought a Z or a SS. There were no exotics here in our town. 302, 350, 396, yes. I don't remember any of the 69 camaros here that didn't have some damage to them at one time or another. As to now this is the rust belt and they have a lot of rust in the lower body. As I said earlier, granted I would like to have all my cars virgin, rustfree, never damaged time machines that I found in my grandmother's barn, but the reality of it is there are more that need repairs, and some of them extensive than there are survivors. I would rather have a clipped car myself with a super clip than one that had to have rockers, floors, trunk, wheel housings, quarters, tail panel, etc. but I hear no compaints about those. You talk about a quality construction issue - now you have one. If you put all this on a car would this not come close to the replacing half the car scenario mentioned earlier? Just some thoughts. You know you can repair them several times. Over and over if need be. You can redo them again later too as technology changes if you feel so led. But you can only throw them away once.

[Belair62]

Point well taken....sounds like hard work...what are your thoughts on tagging a car ?

[elcamino]

A good friends nephew was a auto body man. For years when he worked at a Chevy body shop he would buy wrecked cars and fix them in his own shop, moonlighting. Often the owner of the wrecked car wanted to buy a new vehicle and he would get the wreck for a good price if the dealer took it in trade or sometimes he made a deal with the owner.

When it came time to sell he would tell them they were wrecked but often did not tell them of the extent. Well after doing this for many years and making a lot of money. He sold a Blazer that was in a bad run off the road accident. He fixed using all GM parts but he never disclosed the extent of the accident to the buyer. It did not have a salvage title. Well, although he was a good body man and used all GM parts to repair it, the new owner, a young girl was fatally injured in the Blazer. This happened about 6 months after he sold it to her parents. They suspected something wrong with the vehicle, so they hired a very good lawyer who found out the extent of the damage and how much he made on the transaction. An investigation determined that he was negligent in his repair, some parts were not replaced and later failed. They said he failed to disclose the extent of his repairs, he insisted he did but nothing was in writing. He was lucky to stay out of jail. He was sued, the parents blame him for the accident even though it was shown the driver was speeding. He cannot find a job in any body shop to this day and works construction. He was not really a crook, although he was a good body man, he was not state licensed and insured to do this work outside of the GM dealership.

So I guess the moral is, be very careful restoring vehicles of any omissions on a vehicle repair. If the buyer can prove a defect exists or you altered the vehicle with the intent to defraud and you failed to disclose, you are in breach of contract and can be sued for any and all damages to include punitive damages.

There is a fine line between restoring a car and making a car from junk. I don't think I would want to be the person who just bought a restored 1969 Z28 for $50g only to find out it was a total piece of junk before the restoration and was made up of many other cars unless the shop doing the work was Body Codington etc.

[Norm reynolds]

Ed you say clipping is accepted?? Did that Lincoln get re-titled as reconstructed I do not know what is legal in NC but what I am finding out is in some states it is required by law
I have been in the business for over 35 years I for one WILL NEVER CLIP A CAR
The legal aspect is just to great The shops that I have seen clipping cars are all for the most part out of business why LAW-SUTES I have done my home work on this
I called my insurance co today just to see what their policy on clipping a car I was told if its that bad that it needs to be clipped they will total it even if it is a new car because they can be held liable and not worth the risk. They went on to say they have in the past have been sued The Lincoln you spoke of will most likely end up in a used car lot by years end and some poor Joe ends up with a lemon I know what you are saying about high dollar car but is the risk worth it once its clipped it will never be the same I can go on for days telling you of all the problems I have seen when a car gets clipped. What Mike has said is right on the money I have seen this way to many times. People today are sue happy and will sue you in a heart beat It just not worth the risk. I know that I will NOT convince every one but at least
I can sleep at night knowing I did the right thing I have spoke my peace on this subject and now will get off my soup box and end this

[bbg]

After watching Boyd's new show on Discovery and seeing how many screw ups they made I don't think I would let them fix my car either! LOL I agree with you about some folks fixing wrecks. I have seen a lot of corners cut on salvage repairs done by back door shops for a quick resale. If obtained properly and inspected upon completion by the DMV the public has some assurance of the quality of the repairs. If someone chooses to violate the law that is the technicians fault, not the vehicles. I guess if we look at our court dockets though, this is not the only law broken in this country. As I stated though if done by a reputable shop by certified technicians with state of the art equipment clipping is an acceptable, reliable, and cost effective repair that in some cases is better by far than piecing a large part of the structure back together from a pile of replacement sheet metal. I am neither pro or con on the issue, but again it is an acceptable process and is authorized by insurance companies if applicable to the situation. I don't think insurance companies are going to endorse the work of someone moonlighting out of a home shop anyway. You have any additional information why if these folks suspected something wrong with the blazer they drove it for 6 months, and what the part was that failed after 6 months? Also in shops here body men are just that - body men. They repair the bodies. Any mechanical issues are handled by the mechanics in the service area where they too are certified to inspect suspension and drive train components. As to the 50K Z/28 I also would think that would depend on the car. There are a lot of nice originals, there are a lot of nice minor restorations where a bit of freshening was done on a good driver. I don't think in reality there are a lot of really nice cars taken apart for a total restoration anyway. Resto costs are just too high for that. When a guy lists every body panel replaced except the roof is it because he wants new panels, he wants to make sure there is no rust or gremlins hidden somewhere, or the body was shot and they needed replaced? If you put in new inner and outer rockers and a floor pan technically you just cut the car in two anyway, but in two places instead of one. I think in reality we really have two issues here. One is the structural integrity of the repair which if done by professionals is OK. You can screw up anything if you don't know what you are doing - it doesn't just apply to cars. The second issue is pedigree. I think some folks just can't accept that the rear might have been a lowly 6 cylinder. That clip knows in it's heart that it is not worthy of being on that car, and everyone that comes in contact with it can pick up on the insecurity and negative vibes it emits. You know I think we may need to look at the experiences of those that have gone before us. The A and T model guys, the hotrod guys, and the 50's era guys have all experienced the same things and have got past it as they have come to realize that the salvage left is quickly running out of prestine shells, parts cars, etc. to work with and now gladly repair what they can find. We will too someday. We just aren't quite there yet.

[bbg]

Hey Norm,

I just read your post after the prievious reply. As to the Lincoln I do not know of the titleing, as it was a customers car, and was repaired for the customer and is still owned by the customer. This is 5 years later. It was repaired by a dealership. I can see where it would be a dangerous thing if done incorrectly. Would not any repair done incorrectly be dangerous as well, opening the door for a lawsuit? This is why I am talking trained certified technicians, not just some jack of all trades that hangs out a sign and starts building cars. If man can go to the moon er mars, refloat sunken ships, and build structures that reach to the sky surely a trained technician can weld two pieces of a car together. The best I remember from my own welding class a good weld is stronger than the metal to to be joined.

[bbg]

I suppose by now everyone here is tired of hearing my opinions also, and for that I apologize. I just want to point out I am not defending anyone's particular vehicle - that is between the owner and any future potential buyer. I am defending the technology. I remember the day when straightening a frame meant heating the damaged area with a torch and hitting it with a sledge hammer till it went down enough till the front end would line up. If you took it too far, shim it. If the unibody is hung on a frame machine and is true with certified technicians working on it I see no problem. Cars are made up of systems. If you cut a car in half you would have to change the rear suspension if so desired, or use the one in the clip. Other than that you hook up a brake line and bleed the brakes. Put the fuel line back. Hook up the emergency brake, and plug the wiring harness up. How difficult can any of this be other than trusting the weld? Troy Trapenzier (is that spelled right?) just built the ebay Mustang. They cut that unibody from one end to the other replacing panels as they went. They cut the front end off in front of the firewall and replaced it with one from a 6 cylinder coupe. Is that front end now going to fall off and the new owner going to sue ebay and Troy? How about the Baer brakes Road Runner? Cut the front end off in front of the firewall, and replaced it because of damage. A high profile resto shop did it. Is that front end going to fall off? How about the goodmark Chevelle? What a piece of S--- they started with. That thing is really unique. They used it to showcase thier panels and nearly rebuilt the whole unibody from aftermarket parts. Is it going to fall apart? How about the 56 Chevy being built now on American Hotrod by Boyd. Cut from one end to the other. Is it going to fall apart? Lastly how about the motorcycles of Jesse James and Orange County Choppers? Are they going to fall apart? I am sure you all can think of others. You know what all this actually has in common though? It all started as junk and now is worth big bucks because of who built it, aftermarket parts used, and publicity. Do I think you ought to disclose what's done? Yes. Do I think it is the death sentence? No. I think the buyer is thinking that if I pay all the money I want a car that is worth all the money. If the potential buyer is still there after your disclosure he likes it and if he starts to dicker price, it is just a tool then to use to pay less. People dicker and pick the nicest out there too trying to save a buck. Human nature. We often price high to dicker to what we want anyway, and then the buyer thinks he talked you down and you got what you wanted anyway. All just mind games. Don't we all want a zillion dollars for our cars and a bargain on the ones we buy? If everyone here would be completely honest how many of your cars have some kind of wreck damage that has been repaired? How much? How significant? You going to tell? You going to sugar coat it? Doesn't the market already regulate the price based on rarity, options, desireability, authenticity, and condition anyway? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/JeffSucksToo.gif Not that I really think you guys suck, I just always wanted to post those things. Besides, by now you all probably think I suck. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Charley Lillard]

You Suck...but well said.

[sYc]

Eddie, some very interesting reading, and thought provoking. And, I tend to agree with what you are saying.

[firstgenaddict]

Now what about the 32 Ford all steel streetrods?
These are not made by a recognized mfgr. And someone did one up as a restored car and tried to enter it into an AACA national meet. They went crazy.
So now that The Parts Place is going to be offering complete 69 Camaro Convertible body tubs all completely welded etc. (They will be offering Coupes at a later date) what is to stop some one from just putting a SN on one of these ...as a matter of fact that is exactly the senario they use in their ebay ad. "Will make it much easier to rebuild that rusted away COPO" or something like that.

[firstgenaddict]

69 Camaro Conv Reproduction (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10076&item=2458910 518)

[elcamino]

[ QUOTE ]
You have any additional information why if these folks suspected something wrong with the Blazer they drove it for 6 months, and what the part was that failed after 6 months?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was related to steering and or suspension. The frame was bent in the first accident and was repaired by him using the dealers equipment.

I think it was that the parents could not accept the tragedy and were looking for the reason. When it was discovered they purchased a Blazer that was nearly totaled, they went after him and the court sided with them. He had no business insurance to protect himself.

[70 copo]

25 years ago a wrecked car that had the quarters replaced due to an accident was considered wrecked, "junk" or worth significantly less than a car that was unrestored, original and as a result - less desirable.

Perhaps 25 years from now rebody cars will be classified as "original sheetmetal" or "completly reproduced" (on a new body) and then we will be arguing about the originality of the restoration - that is if any thing is left of the body that is original GM at all.

Looks like there will be plenty of 1st gen cars around for a long time. The market will drive the extent of the fakery. If the prices contune to rise on these cars the market will find a way to sell them. The next thing they will try to fake is the body sheetmetal dates!

[hvychev]

Ed I have to tell you. I hate these rebody threads because everyone seems to be saying the same thing but you have said it best. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[bbg]

Darn hvychev, after a comment like that you make it awfully hard to say anymore. Looks like the only way to go from there is down. Let's look at some questions I would have regarding the blazer accident. It is without a doubt a terrible tragedy that young lady lost her life. I do not want to take away from that. Some things that I would want to know about it though are:

1. Was this gentlemen a certified body technician?
2. Did he also perform any mechanical work needed, and if
so was he cerified in that field also?
3. If he had someone else do any mechanical work were they
certified?
4. In our state when transferring a title on any vehicle a
damage disclosure statement has to be filled out. Was
this done and if so was it accurate?
5. At some point between the length of time it took to
repair the vehicle and the 6 months of ownership past
did the vehicle not come up for a state safety inspection
and if so was the suspension not checked then?
6. It was stated that the owners thought there was something
wrong with the vehicle. Why did they not have it checked?
7. It was stated that the young lady was speeding at the
time of the accident. Was this not also a cause?
8. After another serious accident with apparently a lot of
vehicle damage how was it concluded that the repairs
were at fault? Was it that apparent that there was
pre-existing damage?

Of course in all of this we do not have access to the actual facts, so any and all conclusions we come to would be speculation at best. It would be my guess though that the big issue based on what we were told is the lack of disclosure and the lack of verifiable certification to make the repairs needed. When a lawyer asks you for yourbackground and you have no suspension training and all you can say is "I have fixed a bunch of them." He then gets to say something smart like "Well, you've been awfully lucky up until now haven't you? Just like the one gentlemen previously stated you need to be very careful if you are going to do this kind of work, and have the proper training and skills to do the job.

As to this new camaro unibody, what I just heard said was pedigree. If someone used it to repair a 307 automatic would anyone care? If someone gave you one of those super camaros on "cars in barns" and you could only repair it with a rebody what would you do? If you did rebody it would you look for a good clean original GM camaro or choose a nice new unibody? I am just asking Questions of you and it would be great if some of you would post not what is expected or accepted but your true feelings. Good or bad. Another gentlemen earlier in this post asked if it was really that hard to tell the truth. Let's see. My feelings on the unibody as a part though is that first we need to see if it is as strong as the original and all components fit properly, and that is of course when someone uses one and admits it. Seems to me though it would be hard to use to make a passable fake. All the other repop parts have little deviations from original GM and I am sure the real experts here, which by the way I am not one, could easily point out the things that make it obvious this is not an original part. Titleing and data transfer issues aside as discussed, if safety in our cars is truly an issue isn't there some shells that need way too much metal repair to really be that safe? Would you truly throw away that Zl1, Yenko, COPO, etc. if it were? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif I think this fellow is apparently driving one of those rebody cars, as the rear end seems to have fallen off.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Ed, well said, I'm tending to agree with you as well.

[Belair62]

And isn't this the way all posts should go ! Perfect.Makes sense and no one is bleeding...it's just like the old days ! THAT'S how it should stay....great info. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Kim_Howie]

Here's one to think about. The factory worker that put those cars together new Were mostly general laborers, NOT cert. mechanics like we have today. Rebulding a 60's car is totally diferent than a wrecked new one of today! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[Norm reynolds]

Ed you just made the same point I made in the beginning
(In our state when transferring a title on any vehicle a
damage disclosure statement has to be filled out. Was
this done and if so was it accurate?)
I start out stated that in Pa when a car has a lot of work to the extent to like this blazer that seem to be close to benign totaled or re-bodied (but I do not know what the real story is)
You must disclose the repairs and have salvage or re- constructed title is that not the same thing?? By having a salvage title tell s who ever buys the car was damage and was repaired
I just got back from a friends shop that does restorations and showed him this thread after reading this Bill said he stop clipping cars five years ago I asked why and he said two words law suites he went on that just because you are certified and have a state licensed and have insurance does not keep a smart attorney taking every thing you own away from you. He reminded me of a friend that had a gas station and had a good business but lost it all one night a guy pull in with a nail in his tire
A 18 old kid that was working pumping gas pull the nail and plugged it The guy leaves the gas station go s to a bar. Four hours later he leaves the bar wasted
. Drives a few blocks blows a red light and slams in to another car broadside killing a little girl The guy had no drivers licensed no insurance did not own a home he had nothing So a smart attorney start investigating the car and finds the tire with a plug in it
To make a long story short this attorney convinces a jury that the plug in the tire could make the car not handle right and that caused the accident
Now did that plug in that tire cause the accident??? Heck no. The gas station owner had insurance but this ended up a multimillion-dollar law suite and it wiped him out
Bill said if a car that he worked on got in an accident and it had nothing to do with what he did it would not stop a good attorney from going after him and all his certifications will not help him
Ed I sorry that I do not agree with you about re-body or clipping May be in Nc things are a little different but up here every body is lawsuit happy
You asked if I had ZL-1 , yenko or what ever and it need to be re-bodied would I throw it away .Ed I did this with a numbers matching 1967 GTX I had YES I would throw it away. Sorry I know no body will agree with me but that is how I feel
Just to let you know I do have a state safety and emission license and ASE master tech

[bbg]

I like for things to be civil too. I am really enjoying this sight. Thanks for letting me play. Norm, I think you actually answered you own question. The problem seems to me to be that folks where you live are sue happy, just as you say. Is plugging a tire illegal in your state? We plug tires here in NC too. I do respect your opinion regarding the clipping of cars, however as a mechanic, do you no longer change U joints because the driveshaft may fall out? No longer do brake jobs because the booster may leak and cause the brakes to fail? No longer replace bulbs because it may go out and not illuminate as a brake light or turn signal and cause an accident? How about your body shop friend. Does he no longer replace windshields because the glass may blow out? Certified technicians perform chores everyday that require special skills and training to do. Some times they make mistakes. We are human, and that is why we do carry liability insurance. Agree with them or not some tasks are performed that can have drastic consequences everyday, but due to economics or the needs of the people they are still done. Did you know that when the Saint Louis arch was built the government estimated that 9 men would die in it's construction? Is a arch really worth the lives of 9 men? But it was built anyway, and thankfully no one died during the construction. I still stand by my opinion also. Clipping if done by trained professionals is a safe and acceptable method of repair. Trained technicians work on airplanes, build bridges, erect tall buildings everyday. I wouldn't want a bagboy working on the airplane I was going to ride in, The cook at McDonald's to build my skyscraper, and hopefully for no plumbers to moonlight as McDonald's cooks either. You need the right folks with the right training in the right jobs, and things get done and done well. As to your friend not clipping cars I think it has more to do with economics than anything else. Anyone who does body work knows that you can make a lot more money doing parking lot scrapes and fender benders than large projects and vehicles with particularly heavy damage. Why would you want to get bogged down on a large project that is going to be much more aggrevating to do and less financially rewarding when it is complete? Same way with the rebuilders you say went out of business. I think it has more to do with economics. Since cars are so much more expensive and it takes a lot more damage to total them, it is hard to justify the labor and material investment considering the return when the damage is so great and the air bags are blown out. I am not saying they are not repairable, just that it is not financially viable to do so. The only reason I got involved with this topic anyway was in defense of the gentlemen who is clipping his car. I still say he will have a safer and much more satisfying repair if he clips it than if it were built piece mill. If a welder cannot weld 2 windshield posts, 2 rockers, and a floor pan he doesn't need to be welding, let alone doing all the welding that would be required to do it a piece at a time. Also as to the fellow that is putting the floor and cowl in his car, they did basically the same thing to a 65 Shelby on Dream Car Garage and it turned out really nice, neccesary because in it's younger days it had been raced and wrecked. After it was fixed he ran the daylights out of it. Must have a good welder. Norm, I respect your opinion and hope you respect mine, even though we do disagree. Our opinions are just that, opinions. I am sure there are folks on both sides of the fence. If you don't want to clip cars, then just don't do it. Personally I think if it were that bad of a thing it would be illegal just as making trailers from mobile home axles and tires, and 2 piece truck rims have become. Bottom line, just fix your car however you feel comfortable with, and be up front about it when you decide to sell. They all have some kind of warts you know.

[bbg]

I went back and read the original post and I think in all of this we have still missed one point. If the unibody on a camaro was really that bad and say it was a COPO, etc. and did indeed need to be totally replaced, how would you really know? If there were people who were familiar with the car they may tell. The people doing the work may tell. The owner may tell. What if no one tells? If you were using a good clean unibody and welded up the vin stampings which are normally hid from view anyway so that the acid test would not show them, and then you restamped them with the needed data, how could anyone really tell? An ethical issue, yes. But how could you tell? Surely with a little work the data plate could be put back on till you couldn't tell. When it was complete would it not just look like a fresh frame off resto? Does it really matter that much? If it started out as a fake, sure it is a fake. If it started out real, is it still real or is it now a fake, or is it a repair? And even as to the clip we have discussed, couldn't you just put in new rockers and a floor pan and no one would know because now the evidence of the cut is gone? Everyone seems to be perfectly content with installing a zillion new panels. It was all that rust you know. Why make a big deal out of the clip if it is OK to do new inner and outer front fenders, radiator support, hood, quarters, inner quarters, rockers, floor pan, trunk floor, tail panel, trunk lid, Isn't this pretty well rebodying the car? Yet with this avenue I hear no one complain. It is just better now because it has all this fresh new sheet metal. Do we really have our own opinion on this or are we just following the status quo? This is the way it has always been so that is the way it is. Opinions? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[RichSchmidt]

It is all a scam.In New Jesey,there is no technical certification required to take someone's money to fix the mechanicals or the body damage on their car.80% of all the shops in my area have technicians with no credentials whatsoever{I worked in the busness for 10 years and made it to"A" tech without any training except airconditioning certification).All the local government cares about is that the shop has the right paperwork,and that only refers to having the shop in a properly zoned area and having any environmental issues taken care of{spraybooth if you want to paint and stuff like that}.Salvage titled cars can be repaired by any do it yourselfer in his back yard[but he cant charge somebody money for it},and if the state inspector feels the repairs are satisfactory,and no stolen parts were used the car will get a registerable title issued,but it will always bear the "S" to warn any future buyers.If a car isnt totaled by an insurance company,it doenst matter how bad the body damage is after an accident,there will be no official record of it.If the owner has only liabilty insurance on the car,and he wraps it around a tree and makes it into a horseshoe,and his cousin bubba fixes it by chaining it to the same tree and driving it backwards until the frame is straight and then hanging junkyard or stolen panels on the car and spraying shiny paint on it in his backyad,there will be no record of it,and the police dont even have to write an accident report if the owner doesnt want one.So a car that appears "virgin" could actually be the worst wreck of them all.What is really scary is that if such a car were ever in an accident later on,and the shoddy repairs caused a problem,the owner or repairman could just shrug it off and say,they dont know anything about it,and that the repairs must have been made by another owner at some other point in the car's life.
As for clipped cars,or rebodies,I tend to agree that from a restoration standpoint,a rebody might be more corect.If You find a Copo Camaro in a barn,and it is a 100% complete all numbers matching car that hasnt been driven in 30 years,but is rotted to death,would a future admirer of this car get a more accurate image of the car if it had welded on patch panels,and obvious signs of repair work,or would it be more correct if a clean rust free 307 powerd body were used which still wore all the original seamseal,and had all the original body fitment issues of an actual factory car?
I believe I posted once before about the 396 convertable Camaro that was on Ebay a few months ago.This car needed a front subframe,floors,inner and outer rockers,a tail panel,full 1/4's,inner and outer rear wheelhouses,and trunk floor and dropoffs,and was nothing more then a bare body shell and a complete numbers matching engine,but no other driveline parts.There will be no paper trail following tis car,and regardless of if it gets rebodied or gets the Goodmark book thown at it,somewhere down the line,this car will turn up as a pristine low mileage original on some vintage car trader's lot,and top dollar will be paid for it and nobody will be the wiser.It is the nature of the beast.
Here is one to get you all mad.A friend of mine works at BMW,and he fixes cars that are damaged during transport.He claims that hanging quarter panels and even roof skins on brand new cars before they go to the dealers is common place,and that the cars are sold as new and undamaged cars.He showed me one car with over 800 dents in it from a hailstorm while on the boat,and the shop employs a paintless dent removal expert who worked out every single dimple in that car{and it looked like a 2 ton golfball}without putting any paint on it,and the car was on it's way to a happy home after a 1 week delay in the body shop.A few years back another friend who works at a body shop showed me photos of a brenad new minivan that fell off a car carrier,and was brought to his independent shop to be fixed.They got paid $17,000 to replace every piece of sheet metal on this thing except one door frame,and about half of the floor.A new roof and roof structrue was added along with every pice of sheet metal,and a partial unibody,and this thing went on the dealer lot as a brand new vehicle.The same shop had him put a new frame under a pickup truck that was smashed when being used as a Demo,and it too was sold as an unrepaired vehicle with no record of the damage.So maybe that ZL1 camaro was rebodied by the dealer back in 1969?[yeah right}

[RichSchmidt]

Here is some other trival information on this subject.A car doesnt have to be damaged to be a repair liability.Did you know that doing simple things like adding bolt in frame connectors,traction bars,a strut tower brace or even a fiberglass hood to your car cant leave you open to lawsuits your insurance company dont cover?You may think nothing of buying a late model mustang,adding some frame connectors and a strut tower brace to it and thinking you did the world a favor.If you were to T-bone somebody with such a car and the crumple zones didnt crumple correctly,you could end up being in for a hard luck trip to the courthouse.If you are lucky,the damage will be limited to yourself and your insurance company not wanting to pay for your broken kneecaps,but if you fortifed hot rod were to plow into the side of somebody's car rather then crumple upon impact,you could be looking at loosing everything you own,even despite your million dollar liablity coverage.A good lawyer is going to look for a reason to hang you out to dry.When he sees those bright yellow slapper bars hanging under your springs,and he wants to know what they are for,and you tell him they help give the car more traction,and then he consults with an expert on how if they give a car better traction why dont all cars have them,and the expert tells him because slapper bars can cause the rear axle to lift under very hard breaking and cause the car to not stop straight,guess what he is going to look to pin the accident on.Not the little old lady who blew the light in front of you{his client}but rather on your super modified race car that was modifed in such a manner as to be unsafe for street use.
So with that said,there is a lot of potential liability in the automotive business.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
"I went back and read the original post and I think in all of this we have still missed one point. If the unibody on a camaro was really that bad and say it was a COPO, etc. and did indeed need to be totally replaced, how would you really know? If there were people who were familiar with the car they may tell. The people doing the work may tell. The owner may tell. What if no one tells? "


Well the real point may not relate to the ethics of it but rather to the fact that it is illegal and a major felony to remove the VIN from one car to attach it another. Just replacing panels or a roof, or a trunk floor or bent frame rails is considered repairing in the eyes of Uncle Sam and the Federal Criminal Code. Whether it is for altruistic reasons: saving a rare car, or for selfish reasons: to scam the big $$$ out of someone, the perpetrator still is risking a lot: jail time if he doesn't have money and big lawsuits if he does. -NJSteve

[Norm reynolds]

Ed I am glad that we can agree to disagree I was not coming out here to put you down or pick a fright with you That is no my stile In Philly when it stops snowing by god you better get out and shovel your side walk with in a hour Because we have people going around and when they see a un-shovel walk way they go to the police and make out a report that they fell on your walk way the police go s out and sees that your side walk is not cleaned up and then they will then fine you Then you hear from an attorney that you are being sued. Now the kicker is the person that is suing you never fell on your sidewalk they make shore that no one is around so it s just their word for it http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gifJust look at what happen to McDonalds when some one sued because their coffee was to hot Today we live in a world that is full of nut cases I guess that what Ian saying in today’s society our have to be reel careful My wish would be to turn the clock back to 1960 to a more simpler time http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
"Just look at what happen to McDonalds when some one sued because their coffee was to hot"

As a result of that lawsuit, now McD's has put the warning on the bottom of the cup so you have to turn it over to see that it says: "Caution Dummy You Just Poured Hot Coffee On Your Genitals" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have been watching this post with a lot of interest as it was my original post on the Yenko, that re-newed the interest in discussing this topic. While my original post wasn't meant to do anything more than tell a story of a real car, and how it was used, I think the "debate" generated by it is good for the hobby.

In this day of high dollar restorations, and ever increasing car prices, one must be especially careful as to what is bought and the "proverance" behind a car. This website (while a great place for information) has "pushed" the prices on certain cars to levels that are more than most houses. The people responsible for the escalation of the values, routinely trade cars amongst themselves and each time the cars' "value" increases while the "history" might become "blurrier." Let's face a reality..show me over the last 2 years the number of "supercars" that have sold outside of this group..I would bet it is less than 5%...In my opinion (again it is an opinion)this has created a "false" market..one that is filled with specualtion. While we hear what cars "sell" for is it truely the amount of actual money that changes hands?? If I sell a car to a fellow collector in actual cash for $75k, but I make a deal with the new owner to "publicize" the price was 100k, doesn't it become a "win win" for both parties??? The new onwer gets a car that has a higher value attached to it, so if they sell it he can fetch more money and the former owner can say he sold a "higher" priced car thereby "increasing" his prominence and "worth" in the hobby. The cars themselves don't change..only the "perceived" value...

This is where the whole "re-body" issue comes into play...I know in new cars and "regular" everyday cars things go on..It is true that replacing every sheetmetal panel on a car is pretty damn close to "re-boding." However in this hobby, what is perceived by the masses as "acceptable," is sheetmetal replacement..not cutting a firewall out and welding in another body shell. Therefore when the topic comes up and a specific car is mentioned it generates controversy.

The people that don't want the topic brought up are the same people that are routinely trading cars and escalating the value. If one car is brought to light, surely others will follow. If this happens then the perceived value of ALL the cars might be questioned. If I own a Yenko with a "pedigree" and there aren't any "issues" then my car might go up..if that "pedigree" is somewhat "murky" then it very well might decrease as a result of the "public" becoming educated. Anytime people get educated they ask questions..with these questions comes a desire to have answers...with the answers comes possbile "de-valuation.." This is something the specualtors and majority of people here can't have..

The main reason why I think some people here found my post controversial wasn't because I told about a particular car. After all it didn't name the current owner, and I researched the car for 2 weeks before even posting the facts as I knew them..It is these "facts" that some here DON'T want mentioned or discussed..According to most I spoke with this particular car was known to be "questionable" to those in the core group of Yenko owners, and if the current owner bought the car with all the info. then why should he be ashamed or embarrassed?? He shouldn't..The problem is becase others don't want "outsiders" questioning THEIR cars,as a result of info being shared... The mentality is if a guys car is discussed then "my" car can be,...and MAYBE "my"car won't stand up to the scrutiny..

I really don't think in the late '80's or really up til the late '90's, anyone would have suspected that a guy in VA (me for instance) AND NOT being in the "core" collector "fraternity" would have been able to know the history of a car residing in the mid-west and be able to track it down..It is because of the internet that the world has gotten really small..The point is what was done on certain cars back in the days before the internet can now be discussed globally..If in the early '90's I wanted a Yenko I more than likely had to get Hemmings, or go to a show and get into the "gang" of guys that owned them..Today I can find one in a different region of the US using the internet, and the "history" of a car can be traced..This means that the info can't be controlled among the "core" group of collectors..So any car that has a history that isn't as "clean" will eventually be found out..This also means that some collectors might have to explain certain things..This means some guys will find the car they bought for 150k, might only be worth 100k..Look at the number of Yenkos and ZL1's that are known..They made 69 1969 ZL1's yet we know of 40 something cars...Is it not unreasonable to think a factory race car would actually be used and abused..thereby since the majority of the cars appear "stock" some might be re-bodies..Do we really think people bought a Yenko as everyday transportation??? No..they were used and abused. Hence if the vast majority are now "stock" appearing then some cars might have "issues."

I actually spoke to the person named in my original post as having "located" the Yenko from Mike. He seemed like a nice guy..I was out of line to mention an event I had heard about from others..(the stamping of an engine) and for that I'm truly sorry..He neither confirmed NOR denied what was done to the Yenko mentioned, only stating it was a "race car" and that the sub-frame was replaced...When he bought the car I think he was doing what he perceived as the right thing based on the condition of the car..does it make it less of a Yenko...not in my book..BUT it does make it less valuable to me than a car with an original shell..I think the "locater" probably told the guy he sold it to what the deal was..but since it is a "tight" community the info might not have been passed to the current owner..Who knows??

The basic question in all of this is..What is a car??? Is it an original dash with VIN, cowl and maybe a steering column as I believe (my opinion) the case here, or is it an original body shell..??? To me it is the latter...That however is a question of personal preference...

[bbg]

Hey njsteve,

I agree with you about the legal issues. My question to you and the group is if this was done how would you know this had happened? You would not have anything to go by except the finished product that set before you. Through examination of the car how could you say with certainty this had occured? Heresay doesn't hold up in court, ( or not most of the time anyway) and there would be no physical evidence. How about that new unibody? How can you use that if you can't number it? I don't know how the paper issues would have been handled but in 1974 I worked at an AMC dealership and you could buy a whole unibody from the factory which they referred to as a body in white. The purpose was to replace the structure on a badly damaged car by taking all the mechanicals and transferring them over to the new body. You could get them in colors and were actually available during the current production of the body. They were generally not available after the current body production had stopped. I suppose this could get to be a bit of a touchy thing as no one wants to encourage this nor wants to fall victim to it, but other than fear of prosecution or ones on ethical feelings toward the subject how would you know? I would think that if an original camaro unibody was used and the date codes on the sheetmetal were within the production date of the original car, the unibody was either chemically stripped or sandblasted to remove all old traces of paint and the car then assembled and restored you would not know. I think it is like all other criminal activity. We only know what the ones did that have been caught. The successful ones have gotten away with it and I bet someone is driving one of them right now. Whether we like it or not, the truth is the truth and it is what it is.

[Norm reynolds]

I have a question we all know that there is a vin number behind the heater box
Is it possible there are more hidden vin numbers that the general public is not aware of
I do seem to remember when my neighbors car was stolen it was years later the state police contacted him that they found some parts of his car on another car I seem to remember something about hidden vins that only law enforcement knows about
I just called my neighbor to ask him how did the police trace the parts form his old car
He said that all the state police would say that every car has many hidden vin numbers that only law enforcement knows about Now I am not saying this to be a fact but how many people that have restored a car looked at every square inch of that body Is it possible??? I really don’t know for shore Is this just something new in the last few years or has this always been there and no body knows or never notice . Food for thought. It just got me to thinking on what Ed said how would some one know if a car was re-body

[budnate]

I never looked but was told in the wiper-arm tray of the cowl is also stamped on the pass side, anyone else hear or confirm that.

Bud.

[RichSchmidt]

Numbers swapping in an issue with all old cars.In the northest,there are some odd laws that would lead somebody to believe that certain cars could never be titled.The loosening of some of these laws is giving car resorers more options then they had before.In states like New York,if a car changes hands and is never regiatered{like a race car would},there is no transfer of ownership,and no title.If the car changed hands multiple times there would be no paper trail to find it.Since many hot rodders were afraid of trying to do a title search on a shady car,they found it easier just to swap the numbers with one of the zillions of base model rust buckets that are available for the cost of a 6 pack of beer.Over the last few years,the laws have loosened up,and you an go to DMV with a pencil trace of the VIN and chances are they will give you a hassle free title or the contact to the last known legal owner of the car so that you can arrange for them to assist you.I live in Jersey,and until this day,they have towns that release impounded auction cars with junk titles.The town will tell you that the car is listed as crushed by the state,and that it can never be titled ever again.Well since most of these cars are perfectly fine cars that the owners didnt want to pay the $100 a day storage fees on{especially since some cars have to stay in the pound for over a month until a case goes to court},there are plenty of base model cars in the junkyards that were bought bulk bid from local impound auctions.A local junkyard old me I can get a title for one of these cars using conventional title search means,so there may be some hope,but to some 18 year old kid who bought one as a parts donor for his 1979 camaro hot rod that is rusted beyond repair,all he is looking at is that he can swap his mag wheels and cherry bomb mufflers onto it in about 2 hours and be driving a more solid car then his current one if he simply springs for a box of window ribbon and some pop rivets.I think my own personal car my suffer that affliction.I know my car was first built as a race car back in the early 80's,and that it was bought from a local impound yard as a junk car,and yet it sports a perfectly clean title and the VIN tag sits a little crooked under the dash.Since my car started life as a 1973 pontiac esprit with a 350 2 barrel and green paint,and is now a decked out race car with a bigblock chevy and mostly fiberglass body panels,I dont think anybody really cares what the title on my car says as long whoever holds it can legally lay claim to the car,and register it with plates if they choose.I have no proof of this numbers issue on my car,but it sure looks a little suspect.When I bought my car the front subframe was bent from too many wheelstands,so I had to replace it,and the firewall has pretty much been cut apart for every hop up mod under the sun,and the original drive line went into the metal shredder about 20 years ago,so there isnt much left on the car with numbers on it aside from a tin plate on the dash.Who is to know and who really cares.I have owned the car for almost 15 years,and anybody who would buy it would buy it because it is my race car not because it is a real 1973 firebird esprirt.In the case of somebody paying 100 times the base model value because the numbers came back to it being a real live supercar,that is a different story.I hate the way the goventment ran many of it's motor vehicle operations,and therefore I dont really shun guys who would swap a few numbers just to get some paperwork on their car instead of dealing with beurocracy,but I would never be able to bring myself to swap numbers from a wrecked supercar onto a clean base model as a way to defraud somebdy into believing that what they were really buying was a clean original supercar.I do have some morals.

[RichSchmidt]

Heres a rebody story that might make you laugh a bit{well actually it never happened but almost did}.My father drives a super clean 1983 Old's 98 that he reuses to part with.When New Jersey came out with then new IM 240 inspection program,and the propoganda around it claimed that big brother could take your car away from you at the end of the inspection line if it failed t meet these super stringent new standards after 3 attempts and that high tech tracking systems would eliminate the bogus testing that was going on in the past.My father was not too happy about that.I read the paper and it said that car made before 1980 werent subject to the testing.I just smirked and told him we needed to start combing the papers for a 1979 Old's 98 4 door that we could swap numbers with.He didnt like what i had to say,but he knew it was one way out of beating them at their own game.Luckily for him,the test wasnt as strict as everybody first believed,and his car squeaked through.If what the propoganda said was true,I figure i would have been getting a call inquiring about how to make those funny little starr shaped rivets about 2 months after his inspection expired;)

[bbg]

As to Norm's question about the secret numbers, I think the numbers under the cowl and behind the heater box are the secret numbers. If not this is the best kept 40 year old secret I know of. It would have been someone's job at the assembly plant to stamp them for starters, and I haven't ever heard of anyone coming forward stating their job was "secret number stamper". Secondly all police officers would have to have access and surely someone would have leaked the info by now. We know where these are because this is our mark of interest. Anyone here know where they are on a 65 Falcon, or a 69 GTX, or a 95 Taurus? I don't, only the vin plate on the dash, but they are there somewhere. Has anyone ever checked your vin data? Not mine. I think if you stole a car 30 miles from your house and put different dash number on it, you stand a pretty good chance of getting caught. If you stole one on the west coast and took it to the east coast and changed just the dash vin, do you think you would get caught? Something would have to arouse suspicion to the car first before anyone would give it a second thought. So that Yenko you just stole becomes a base camaro. You tell everyone you just built a clone. Maybe change a thing or two to make it questionable. Everyone knows you can't afford a real Yenko anyway. No way it's real. You get to drive and enjoy it from now on, and it was FREE. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Jeff H]

The real issue with altered cars is the fact that there is no federal motor vehicle laws. Some states issue a title, others don't. Take a salvage title car to a state with no title for a year, then sell it elsewhere as a clean car. Some states use 2 license plates, others use 1. Once a car has a salvage or repair title, it should stay with the car forever and that's why we need federal control, not state control. And inspections/emissions should be the same in every state as well.

[RichSchmidt]

We talk about all of this stuff going on,but my neightbor is into building early iron,and some of the stuff is just whacky.They build cars with one year body,and another year frame,the body may be so rusted that it doesnt have numbers on it,but the frame does.Other guys use a totally rusted body with an aftermarkt frame and late model engine.How do you keep tabs on cars that are 70 years old and havent been on the road in 50 years?He just got a title for his 32 ford using a pencil trace of some numbers he found on the frame,which I think isnt the one that came with the body on the car,and the last titled owner was back in 1953,and has been dead for at least 30 years.The frame was found in a barn,the body was upside down in a corn field 1000 miles away with chickens growing in it,and not one mechanical part was anywhere to be found.It is now a straight axle gasser style hot rod with a bigblock chevy,zoomie pipes,4 speed,4" chop,and 14" wide prostreet type rubber under it.The orginal frame has been boxed and butchered,the body needed a cowl,floors,rockers,and a ton of patchwork.So what will people be doing with 69 camaros in the year 2050?

[bbg]

Don't you think all these numbers were originally just to help trace theft, identify parts, and help track batches in case of warranty claims and recalls? We are the ones that have made them so much more. Seems to me to be more of a GM issue than anything else. From what I understand a Boss 302 is identified as such in the vin number. I know that the vin on an amx or javelin tells you if it were an amx or javelin, what engine, carbureation, transission, column, or floor console, all on the vin. No guessing here. With a 69 camaro the vin tells you if it is a 6 or 8 cylinder. Early cars had little info on the infamous data tag and since they can be removed you have to wonder if it has been switched. Without a paper trail you have to be a detective and piece together enough data to decide if what you see is real or not. Block changes on a Boss seem to be a normal occurance as there was some sort of problem with them and the boss folks don't seem to care - to them big deal. A Z block is just a 350 block with 4 bolt mains and are very common. Rotating assembly different, yes but the block is the same. You have an original Z block bored out to the outer limits of hell and have custom pistons made or sleeves installed and you are good to go. Just don't deck that block. It doesn't matter if the cylinders are too thin, it overheats, has possible poor head seal because the block isn't true. It still has the numbers on it. Replace that block with a good correct block and although you now have a much better engine that is again identical except for those numbers and you have really screwed up. Get the right block casting and casting date, have it restamped and you are scum of the earth. Same applies to these unibodies - patch up a rusty piece of sh-- with a Goodmark catalog and everyone seems to be just so impressed with that list of new sheetmetal you had instlled. Clip it or install a whole really clean unibody and again you have commited the ultimate sin. Never mind now the car is a much better and safer car, those little numbers aren't there. But you know what in all of this really doesn't make sense to me. A couple of years ago Reggie Jackson took a camaro to Barrett-Jackson. A ZL1, COPO, I don't remember which. It had the wrong block in it and he said so up front. Said he did have the original block but it was damaged beyond repair. I guess it was there to help with the documentation. It bid to $277,000 if I remember right and he turned it down. Seems to me we are the one's screwed up. Are we doing this for the cars, the money, an investment, all the above? Or again are we just following the status quo. Doing what we have been told to do and doing so without question? Just as was just said. All these street rods are built out of a stew of parts, all years, all models, aftermarket, whatever to build what the builder sees fit. The cars are built, titled, sold, driven, and by grannies bring big money. If anyone can explain away all this I for one would like to hear it.

[njsteve]

I think the real reason we are all doing this is to try to create our own little time machines. I'd love to be able to get in my time machine, walk back into a 1969 or 1970 Chevy or Dodge dealer and order a car, show up again on delivery day and store it away til today. Sounds like a Stephen King novel. In the absense of the time machine, the only way we can "go back" is to recreate the past by restoring the cars to the way they came from the factory. On Mopars it's a little easier for documentation purposes: the VIN says it all: hemi or 440-6, etc. On Chevy's it only says 6 or 8 cylinder, hence the problem or fakes, clones, rebodies. That is why the issue of provenance is so important; you are establishing the integrity and authenticity of the car and its unbroken chain of ownership back to its original delivery. Without a documentable provenance, all you have is just another V8 Camaro. So when the provenance is diluted or destroyed by a rebody or a fake, or 2 cars showing up with the same VIN after the original was destroyed in 1969, then you only make the genuine cars worth so much more in terms of monetary and esoteric value.

[budnate]

I need to chime in and ask a question that has been on mind for many years,
Let’s see if I can word this right without causing too many problems,

Doesn’t it bother you that most of these cars are being redone in garages across the world by guys that made a trip down to Tool Town and picked up a wire feed and few pneumatic chisels and are rebuilding some car in there garage??????????????

I mean really! Here are people that have never been to any kind of school on welding etc….Doesn’t that worry you at all???

Did the welds really penetrate??? Or did you overheat the weld???

Or my favorite saying I must have heard a thousand times in different shops.
“Good enough for this Guy”. Or “I’ll let the next Guy worry about it”

I am not going to get into clipping of cars that has been covered very well so far, but I will add one thing that has not been covered, yes there was a union guy that may have not been the sharpest tool in the shed putting these cars together when new, but in his defense they were welded with nice equipment that was “calibrated” to weld properly the two metals at the time, they also were crash tested to ensure integrity of the components, and this worker was trained to use the equipment properly.

I spent enough time years ago around the dealers and body shops to confirm all that has been said in this thread, I have not been in any shops lately but I would assume they have cleaned up tremendously due the liability world we live in now.

One more page in “As the Thread Turns”.

Bud.

[bbg]

Well said budnate, and a very good point. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[RichSchmidt]

What is really scary is that even when a car is totaled in New Jersey and is clipped at a professional shop,and instpected by the state inspector,there is no way to verify if the welding was done correctly.I weld race car chassis and have never had an official course.My welds get certified to protect sombody in a 175mph crash and are done with a Home Depot mig welder.
Once a car goes up for inspection after a rebuild,the welded repairs are already ground,seamsealed and painted.If the entire thing were on the verge of falling apart nobody would even know,and this could be the case even with many of the very reputable body shops.Around my area,it is still common place for car restorers to braze 1/4 panels on with a torch,and to make structural repairs to a car by heating up and bending the frame of the car with a torch.Once brushed off and painted nobody will ever be able to tell the differance,but will the metal ever be the same?
As for backyard restorations,you will be lucky to find somebody who actually puts the effort out to go buy a welder and cutting tools.Half of the cars I see at cruise nights have floorpans,firewalls and fender aprons that were repaired with everything from pop rivets to adhesive glues.The scary part is that many of these cars were daily drivers with floors that had no more sturcture to them then was provided by the 3 layers of floor mats that covered the rust holes,and there are cheap skates out there who would rather remove one rear shock from their rotted out camaro then replace the punched out shock mount.That is how bad the state of affairs is on old cars in the northeast.So in reality anything done with a welder is better then the bailing wire and pop rivet fixes that are employed on the majority of vintage cars of true driver quality.
The fact of the matter is that clean old original cars are almost non existant in unrestored form.If you took a brand new Camaro back in 1969 and put it in the average notheast garage the day you bought it,after 35 years,it would have rot on it even if it never touched the road.Most base models were driven daily and either have major accident damage,or severe rust,or both.Most supercars were either burned for insurance money back in the 70's when gas prices got too high,or turned into race cars that were eventually cut up and tubbed and junked when their race car build became outdated.Very few people had the forthsight to stash these cars away,and most of the ones that turn up have some kind of tale of woe behind them like the owner died in 1972 or in combat or some other reason why a perfectly good bigblock muscle car wasnt being driven and beaten to death over the last 30 years.
Most supercars turn up in former race car condition{no useable sheetmetal from the firewall back},or as abandoned wrecks that were wrapped around a pole back in 1976 and the owner left under a tree in his back yard with the good intentions of fixing someday until the rust gremelins ate what was left of the car from the inside out.We now have to consider restoring these relics or just letting them vanish off the face of the earth.One side of the hobby feels that by ridding the world of all the rust buckets and cut up bigblock camaros the market will be higher for the remaining few.The other side of the market feels that if it can be saved it shoud be.These are two very different opinions on a the very core subject of our hobby.Either way,people should admire other people's cars for what they are,and limit their actions to their own vehicles.If you dont like the way a car was restored,then dont buy it.These are only cars,and the only people willing to pay 6 figure sums for them are people who have nothing better to do with 6 figures.If somebody wants to spend their retirement check on a pieced together heap with bogus parts,then that is their opinion.I know enough about the muscle car market to know what want and how much I feel it is worth and that is what I concern myself with.
Another thing to remember is that our beloved supercars were some of the most poorly built vehicles on the history of automobiles.I hate to say that,but it is true.In a discussion the other day with a fellow racer,I pondered at the fact that I started my car hobby back in 1988,and was into 1st and 2nd gen camaros at the time.My first camaro was a 1973 and I bought it in 1989.It had 2 1/4's put on it,the trunk floor was completley missing,the door jams had holes in them as did the lower door frame and the lower front fenders.While on a high school budget,I looked at many camaros,and all the affordable base model 1st gens had major rot issues,as did all the mid 2nd gens such as the many 75 and 76 camaros I knew of at that time.Almost all of the 50's iron I have even seen since the late 80's has been more solid then those camaros.Today I would have to search high and low for a 1984 camaro that even had a litle bit of actual rust holes in it,yet in 1989 I couldnt find 1 20 year old camaro even a base model 6 banger for a reasonable price that didnt have rust holes the size of footballs all over it.We have to remember what it is we are working with here.