replacement blocks

[gemleeus]

what is a "ce" replacement block,something done under manufactory warranty?

[Seattle Sam]

It's a Chevrolet Engine. sold over the dealership parts counter.
-Sam

[gemleeus]

I found a nice 69 z28 and in the ad it stated having a "ce" replacement block. I wasn't sure what that meant.

[Don_Lightfoot]

If a CE block was used by a Chevy dealer to replace an engine under warranty it should have the car serial number stamped on the block. Such would not be the case with the ones mentioned above as sold through the parts department.

[berger]

would probably have a vin if he blew up the first one and got it replaced under warranty, but if he realized he didn't want a roadracer and wanted a drag car he could have a race shop drop a 427 321# or 052 # ce in to convert it so to speak, give him a call ask what the motor is.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[olredalert]

Don,

-----I bought a 427/435 69 Vette new and a week later due to a frozen wrist-pin the car was back at a Chevy dealer getting a new warranty motor. Nobody stamped anything in that block except Tonawanda! I have never seen a CE block here in the US with the serial number stamped back in it by the dealer. Not implying it didnt happen,but I have never seen one.Maybe they did that up in Canada?...........Bill S

[Salvatore]

Bill, I believe you are right. I have NEVER seen a restamped CE block under warranty. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Sam

[Don_Lightfoot]

Bill and Sam, thanks for your input. This subject has come up on numerous occasions over on Team Chevelle and my above response was the general consensus of the feedback provided. Also, if I recall, there was some sort of "GM Service Bulletin" quoted by a TC member stating this actual fact. Furthermore, there seemed to be evidence from people who had experienced this 'way back when' that the procedure could in fact be different from dealer to dealer.

I am not in a position or have any kind of evidence to confrim this. My CE block has the VIN on it, but I am not in a position to confirm who and when it was stamped, and frankly, it doesn't really matter to me.

Could be one of those "no concrete consistant evidence available" type of circumstances http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Additional comments and input obviously more than welcome http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Schonyenko2]

There were also factory warranty replacement blocks that were coded for the car that needed the replacement. ie; if you needed a bare block for a 70 Z28 4 spd they shipped you a CTB block with no sequential vin #. Theres a very good article in one of my Year One catalogs about these. I can copy it and send it for posting if you like. Schonye

[yountto]

CE never had a vin # on the block.....No bare block would ever have a horsepower designation on it,only long blocks would have this designation,and none meant for warranty purposes..thats why bare blocks were sometimes sold as blank pads,otc motors had the HP designation down on the boss at the starter IF they were assembled by GM.warranty had ce buy not usually a build code......Thats why 99% of unstamped virgin blocks had build dates http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif by the starter...Reading books is dangerous.

[JChlupsa]

From the April 14th 1969 Chevy Dealer Service Information Bulletin Re-Issue 69-I-I Page 6
------------------

Service Usage

The following system will be used to identify service engine and transmission assemblies* including replacement parts. Manufacturing plants will number each service assembly as it is produced. The first letter will designate the G.M. Division which produced the Engine.
C- Chevrolet
B- Buick
L- Oldsmobile
P- Pontiac
K- Cadillac

The second letter will indicate the type of unit "E" engine or "T" Transmission. The number following the letter will designate the Model Year "9" for 1969. The last five digits specify the service replacement unit sequence number.
------------

It goes on to list the plants/engines and the serial sequence number but I dont think they wil line up here on the fourm so Ill scan them and post that info later.

Example: Number CE900175 designates Cheverolet Engine- 1969 year, and the 175th unit oproduced for service at Flint Motot Plant (L-6)

For trannys it states that hydra-matic transmissions will be numbered with the letter "H" regardless of the G.M. Division using the transmission.

[JChlupsa]

Also in the same bulletin it states that :
All Chevrolet produced COPO axles for passenger cars will use a thre alpha prefix to the date code. Truck COPO axles will use a two alph prefix to the date code

[Schonyenko2]

I actually have one of those warranty blocks. It is a 1970 4 bolt 010 350 stamped on an undecked pad CTB without the sequential vin#. I had not seen one either until I got this one. I then read the article from Yr 1. I'm just passing on the info, not startin a spittin match. Schonye

[yountto]

How do you know it was a CE replacement if it has a CTB on the pad,unless you yourself had the item warranty replaced in 1970.....it could be a motor that came from a car that wasnt vin stamped..or it could have been a long block OTC motor that was stamped on the pad rather than the customary starter area,how do you know it came from GM as a bare block???..No "spitting match" intended...

[Schonyenko2]

I'll try to get that article posted from YR1 tommorrow. Maybe this block started life as an unstamped otc motor. Schonye

[GMH454]

Have a race car that has a LS7 from Nickey dropped in it in 1974 coded by the factory, can't read the code but it 3 digit alpha code and not CE.
Had a A/Prod Vette with a Crate L-88, (saw the crate lid, and yes it had the part number and L-88 on it.) That was a L-88 short block and it was stamped CE. Also from 1974, have a copy of the parts invoice for it
No logic here.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[gemleeus]

OH, so thats what it means, thanks.

[WILMASBOYL78]

My 70 L78 Nova has a CE replacement block. Casting date 5/25/72, CE360285. This car had a warranty replacement shortblock installed in the summer of 1973. This seems to make sense, the block was cast in 72 and then asembled with the 73 year code and 60285 in sequence. I know that the engine was replaced at the dealer because the original owner had all the details. I have never seen a CE motor with a vin, but then I haven't seen everything. Hope this helps. Tom http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mark_C]

Never seen a CE block with a VIN, or an assembly code on the pad. What the block be it a bare blck, short block long block engine was documented by the CE number. Very rarely would GM replace a complete motor. You might get a bare block (CE code) a short or fitted Block (just a block piston and rods) (CE9A code - where 9 is the year), or a long block (CE9B code) and have to use your old heads intake etc. GM wasn't giving away complete engines if you blew yours up, you got the minimum pieces needed to get you out the door.

What's the difference between a 350 LT1 block, and any other 350 that would give you a CTB code on a bare CE block. A 3970010 block (I assume thats the casting number) is just a block, could be 2 bolt or 4 bolt. The CTB code was an assembly code for a complete motor, you can't buy a block stamped with CTB unless it came from an assembled LT1. So if you have a CTB block with a CE number on it it's either all that's left of a complete CE motor, or its a restamp.

[Salvatore]

AMEN! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[GMH454]

Have seen two 454s both with three digit assembly codes, and one is in my car. Can't speak of the first it might have been from a LS6 (that was the code ) that someone forgot to stamp with the VIN, but the second was bought as a short block LS7 or LS6 from Nickey Chevrolet.

Have magazine photos showing the Nickey decal on the rear window circa 1974, know the guy who bought the engine and dropped it into the car, he is restoring it for me at the moment. the storey of the engine is documented by 1974 magazines etc. These cars were never sold with a 454 so know it did not come with the car, but has been in the car since new,
Neither block had a VIN.

Don't know what this means except that you could buy a short block with an assembly code, in 1970 & 1974.

[yountto]

You can take a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.........

[Schonyenko2]

I have had two people try to post the page from Yr 1 and its to big. The article is on page 121 of the 2000 nova book. It has a picture of their 68 L89 blue chevy ll on the cover. There is a picture of a stamped block that is described as being coded for a 70 full size pass car. It says note the lack of a VIN# on this block, which means this particular engine was not installed in a chassis on the assembly line.
Younto, few people have as much knowledge as you on this subject. I know that I don't. I do know enough that the block that I have has not been decked, and is stamped CTB. And apparently this gentleman from down under has one too. Schonye

[rpoz11]

I agree with Yountto's thinking here. I have pondered here a moment and I would think that legally, only the Manufacturer is allowed to ID these as they were installed at the time AND place of assembly. In no way would a dealer be allowed to re-stamp original #'s on anything. Isn't it against the Law to alter any of the original stampings? Obviously, I would think that there is a liabilty issue granted to GM, FORD, Chrysler...etc to be allowed to issue the VIN's accordingly. However, where do all these "Gang-Stamping" tools appear from anyways!??? Seems there are several people around capable of re-stamps...Thoughts here...? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[yountto]

Schonye..I think the issue here is that a block is not a CE warranty simply because of a lack of a vin..Marine applicaton stampings are known to be on the pad or by the starter starting with 1966 427s..The other problem is some publications[actually most]have editors to edit spelling not technical errors....Because its in print does not mean its true ....I can give you 3/4 reasons why you have a CTB stamp block with no vin,but none of them would lead to it being a warranty replacement...

[Keith Tedford]

As crude as it may sound, GM used a gang stamp and a big hammer to number the blocks and transmissions. The trucks were still being done this way well into the '80s. Our L78 Chevelle had the short block replaced in '71 and has the block stamped CE1XXXXX on the deck surface. These replacement assemblies also had a limited warranty and the XXXXXX number allowed GM to identify them. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Schonyenko2]

Yountto, I'm not locked into it being a warranty block. That was the term that was used in the publication. I'd like to hear the 3-4 other options. Obviously we have something that is not very common, but please to others, please hold off on the insinuations that this is not a factory stamped application. Schonye

[Jeff H]

Let me ask this question about engines. If the engine plant says it assembled x engines coded "CTB" and Chevrolet says they built y cars that had that engine code, what would Chevrolet do with the x-y engines that were left over? They would already be assembled and stamped sitting around waiting to go into a vehicle. Would they first use those as warranty replacements or start immediately with CE replacement blocks? I would imagine that the leftover complete engines would be sold as "crate" motors since they were fully assembled vs warranty replacement especially if the engine being replaced only needed the short block. These "crate" motors would explain motors with no VIN on them.

[Mark_C]

Before this gets ugly, I interpreted your original statement that you had a "CTB stamped CE block" as being just that a warranty block with both a CE number and CTB on it. That is what brought up the restamp issue. You can't have just a block with an engine suffix code on it, it would have to be a complete engine and I stand by that observation.

I have no doubt that there were complete motors sold over the counter with a CE number and an engine assembly suffix on it. These are probably leftovers, or some small run of extras built just for spare parts. They were probably pretty rare and they are not to be confused with a CE warrantee block, or assembly. In this case a coded assembly should not have any casting dates, or assembly stamp date that extends beyond August of the model year in which the Code was used. In other words you WILL NOT find a CTB coded 70 LT1 over the counter engine that was assembled after August of 1970, as there were none made after that with that code. On the other hand a CE (warrantee replacement) block without the assembly suffix code could be dated up to the warrantee expiration date for that car, because it's just a block and or some pistons, rods and possibly a crank that GM still had service parts for, and were able to assemble for warrantee.

Anything places like Yenko, Nickey or Dana, does not fit into the general rules of engine production. They are not the "norm", as they had to get the engines they put into their cars from somewhere, so obviously it was possible to get complete engines over the counter. These engines would have casting dates before the car was built though so it should be easy to identify them. I do know that the heads have something to do with the engine suffix code, so I doubt you could get a short block with a suffix code even from them. A long block maybe, but not a short.

They are also no good in documenting a car. As I, for all intents and purposes, could have purchased a complete L89 CE engine over the counter back in 69 thru the end of the warrantee period and then put it in my small block pacecar. With a few other component changes and a CE number on the block I've got a car that is worth twice what the L48 version was worth. Doesn't mean thats what it left the factory with, at least with just a CE number you feel a little more comfortable that the block was replaced under warrantee, and not purchased over the counter.

I'd feel much more comfortable buying a car with a CE stamped block without an engine suffix, than one that did have it for that reason.

[Schonyenko2]

Ok, I see where this may have become confusing. This could have been a complete motor, but when we got it, it was an unassembled shortblock that needed bored 30 over. No heads. Not decked. My mistake in description. I recieved a pm from Yountto that also explains what this could be very well.
Still tyring to get the article edited to post. I sent it to rob.
Nothing here ever needs to get ugly. This is a site for information sharing, and learning. I've learned a great deal from this, and other sites. Sometimes we ALL just need to step back in our rush to judgement. Schonye

[yountto]

"In other words you WILL NOT find a CTB coded 70 LT1 over the counter engine that was assembled after August of 1970, as there were none made after that with that code"................. Mark, How then do you explain the "CRR" stamped Ls6 coded 1972 1973 and later vintage Ls6 OTC motors???..They were built years after the 1970 Factory Ls6s..... I have 3 of them here and they were even built using #289 casting blocks as well as #512..build dates and CRR are stamped on the front pad....NO vins obviously.....I believe this was done because there werent any ls6/ls7 motors in 1971 production to change to another build code,hence CRR stayed for years after 1970 production on over the counter Ls6 motors......

[GMH454]

Crate motors is exactly what I was talking about. Thought I was clear but obviously not.
In my case know the guy who bought the short block, seen the block and storey documented by 30 year old paper.
Just because it is not common does not mean it never happened.

[Mark_C]

Can't explain that event. One would think that any engines left over at the end of production for a specific year, assuming they were not continued into the next years production, would be made available to the service group as crate engines. That allows the engine plant to charge the service group the cost of these engines as well as any other that were purposely built for service during the production year and closes out the books, making GM management happy. Anything that can't be transfered to another GM group has to be written off as scrap and results in a loss to the engine group.

Can't even imagine the process of walking into a GM dealer in 73 or so and ordering a complete CRR coded LS6, and assuming all the originally available crate engines were used up, having GM build one and still getting the correct casting numbers and everything else, but with current (at the time) casting dates. Maybe the answer is because it was an LS6, and not a more common engine like an LT1, or L48.

[Chevy454]

Here's some info, via some crazy Iowan...http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/70828-BLOCK1.jpg

[GMH454]

Embarrassing correction time.
Just got off the phone from the guy who bought the engine, and it was not from Nickey, sorry about that, a lot of other parts in the car were, and I got the storey crossed.
The engine was a complete LS7 marine engine, not a short block,
Terry

[Mark_C]

You won't find a VIN on the engine pad of 70 percent of the Camaros built in Norwood, and about 20 percent of the LA built Camaro during the 69 production year and every one of them was factory installed. Of course there is (or is suppossed to be) a VIN derivative on the side of the block above the oil filter.

A vast majority of the 67 Camaros didn't have VIN's on the pad either. Typically only the Z28's and SS's got VIN derivatives on the pad. Take the magazine article with a grain of salt, as it was mostly up to the assembly plant as to where the stamp got placed during assembly of the car. The rules from the Federal Govenment did get tighter and tighter with regards to component stamping as the years went by.

[JChlupsa]

I like this block http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

T0522CRR
http://www.yenko.net/attachments/70855-T0522CRR%20coded%20LS6.jpg

[yountto]

Jeff, Wasnt that motor [Ls6] a GM over the counter performance upgrade option for the 1969 L72 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/JeffSucksToo.gif

[Schonyenko2]

Thank you Rob. from a "crazy Iowan"

[Kurt S]

One thing is for sure: an engine code was only stamped on the pad for a complete engine assembly (manifolds, dist, etc).

I think the LS6 OTC motors are the exception, not the rule.
Very few motors had a service part # for a totally complete assembly. The LS6 did, so they used the CRR engine code and ran it right down regular production line.

Other service motors were not complete assemblies and thus were not stamped with the application code, but as CE blocks.

Never seen a VIN stamped on a CE block. The dealers were also supposed to stamp the delivery date on the VIN tag up to 67. How many did??

I've never got a satisfactory answer on what happened to extra production motors. I'm digging again.
I do know they worked hard (and still do) to balance out the build so they used everything up to make room for the new model parts. Only so much room in the plant......