1970 Ls6 Convertible

[yountto]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6164&item=24622080 60 Ls6 convertible for sale.....if anyone is looking

[Jim Mulvey]

Is this car legit???

[njsteve]

"This auction is for a very rear muscle car". ... Please remember a Hemi Charger Convertible is worth over a million. "

1) What's a "rear car" ???
2) No such thing as a Charger Convertible, let alone a Hemi powered one.

Remember, the spell checker is your friend http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[lowmile]

Looks like YOU must be looking, going by who the high bidder is... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif m

[Musclecarkid]

Check again, who the high bidder is!!!!!!

[hvychev]

This car is owned by the same fella that had the Scuncio COPO Camaro that was for sale on e-bay a while back. He also had a Yenko Deuce Nova sold out of Cliff Peck Chevrolet Little Rock, AR that was bought by Dave Belk and then restored by our own Ken Schoenthaler. I hear that the LS6 vert is legit.

[Zman]

Why wouldn't you pull the car out, clean it up a bit, and provide some decent pics? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[mmcporter]

If it's too clean, you lose that "survivor car" effect... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Chris396]

That is a big eBay pet peeve of mine. If you are selling a high dollar item take some good pictures.

[Jeff H]

Looks like a couple of people we know are interested in the car! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Bill Pritchard]

Also looks like the car will definitely be going to a new home http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[SS427]

Hopefully to one of us. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[yountto]

1 Bid retraction already!!! Ya gotta love selling cars on ebay....

[69L89RAG]

Looks pretty ratty.

I am guessing that since the car has not been ripped apart on the forum that the consensus is the car is the real thing? Have any expert's look at the car and what do they think?

[jfkheat]

I would think that since at least 4 guys from here have bid on the car, that it legit.
James

[SS427]

From my understandings, one of the 2 NCOA Diamond judges has looked at the car. I also understand he was comfortable with the car as far as being authentic. It does need A LOT of work (spelled $$$$$$) but otherwise a nice car. I would hope whoever ends up with the car gives it the restoration it will deserves.
Rick

[SS427]

I should also add that the car should not be touted as 100% original. There are MANY items under the hood that are clearly NOT original to the car that need attention. All numbers, dates and codes should be verified before the money is paid out.

[yountto]

Rick, I have no opinion either way whether the car is real or not[i just have to respectfully disagree that in this day and age anything can be "verified" without GM paperwork] ,just strange that its been for sale 3 times after the "experts" verified it and wasnt sold before,now everyone wants it,and it hits reserve the first day by bidders from this site ?? Im thinking if i wanted the car that badly id have been there the first day with a hauler,or the six months in between auctions . Honestly i think the reason is people are testing the waters to see if it will gain acceptance without paperwork on this site PRIOR to buying it,rather than buying it offline and showing up with a non documented Ls6 and no momentum [understandable ] ...Just my opinion...

[Charley Lillard]

Yountto.. I had forgotten all about the car and in my opinion prices have jumped since it was last for sale. 71 Judge converts are now 200-300K so a orig engine LS6 convert for 75K seems like a deal in comparison.

[LVCamaro]

Plus, like it or not, the opinion of this board DOES bear on the desirability of the car. I'm sure the folks from this board that have expressed interest in the car are aware of who inspected the car [a year, or so ago]. His opinion/comment weighs heavily in a decision to purchase a '70 Chevelle LS6 convertible without paperwork. Nothing trumps original documentation, but I believe CW's opinion is the next best thing. So, I guess I'm agreeing with you that acceptance here is valuable.

SS

[yountto]

So do i get a finders fee for first posting it here and reminding you???!...I do agree with you on prices and wasnt specifically talking of you because you are the high bidder[again,after the bid retraction] ,the only point i disagree on is that i cannot personally call an Ls6 an origial engine car[with OR without paperwork],just because a chevelle judge says so....even the NCRS judges will certify a car 100 points yet have a disclaimer that says even though the car is judged top flight, the ncrs makes no guarantee as to authenticity,because quite frankly how can they look at a car 30 years after the fact and be certain???...I have not tried to discredit the car in any way because i havent seen it....Its just that now that site members bid on it,everyone is quick to call an undocumented car the real deal by the bidder list...

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
I have not tried to discredit the car in any way because i havent seen it.

[/ QUOTE ] Interesting point Yountto...if you saw it and agreed the numbers added up and looked undisturbed,what would your opinion on it be since it still wouldn't have paperwork ?....

[yountto]

Personally i believe if a car has a factory GM buildsheet or GM canada paperwork,or in the case of the ZL1s the vins are known,i would verify the car is surely legit....other than that POPs,owner history,and peoples opinions just dont count when you are in 200k 300k land[or less for that matter].....What you are saying is if you take a real L78 camaro,buy a virgin dated block and a set of 842s and do nothing else but add these two items, you have a real L89 because it looks to be one????

[Belair62]

I tend to agree but buildsheets are suspect too...but my question was what you would say about this car if you were able to personally look at it and found that it looked legit ??? Would you deem it to be as valuable as a car with doc's being it is such a low production car ?

[yountto]

There is absolutely NO way any car without docs is as legitimate as one with, you have to be kidding....Ive only questioned that the parameters of what is needed for a car to be "documented" have been altered and watered down to fit a given situation and or individual[s] ...One can make an educated assumption[note "assumption"] that a car is real based on a combination of originality,owners,and condition,but nothing with certainty without paperwork. The problem is buying a car with no docs is like buying a Babe Ruth baseball documented by a handwriting expert,you really hope its his signature but it bothers you that maybe the Babe didnt sign it...I give alot of credit to the seller for not having a 200.00 POP in this particular case http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif,its going to a new home so good luck to the buyer also

Chuck's opinions are both well stated and well respected in my opinion...I agree 100% with him concerning the current prices and what has become "acceptable" in this hobby. I know Chris and while I value his opinion, I'm not ready to risk buying a car for that kind of cash without firm factory paperwork. Buildsheets or GM Canada paperwork in my opinion are the BEST source of factory documentation, as they are directly from the factory. I think the days of guys buying a car with a POP and thinking it is original, based solely on that are long gone. I don't think anyone is navie to think buildsheets can't be faked, however there are a lot of subtle things that verify a sheet as being authentic. With POP's there isn't this "safeguard," therefore a car with solely a POP can't be worth in my mind what a buildsheet car is worth, and in my mind it doesn't matter whether the car is a COPO or a LS6. I do applaud the seller for not having a POP made as well. Just because a car is bought by someone here doesn't mean it is real or correct, so I completely disagree with the idea that this board or 1 person can "make or break" a car. As Chuck pointed out, doing your homework and researching a car, can and will substantiate or discredit paperwork and a car.

Just as a side bar to this topic...ever notice how many people frown upon green cars, yet when looking at what was "popular" green and "earth tones," were the rage in the late '60's and early '70's. I would bet if someone took a statistical sample green would account for a large percentage of sales. I do hope that whoever ends up with the car appreciates it, and it is proven to be legit as is expected.

[Belair62]

Good civil perspectives .....Thanks. Greg, color will always be in the eye of the beholder and his checkbook....

[Jeff H]

You should see the green in my house! Dark, dark green kitchen cabinets, green kitchen sink, green stovetop, green oven, green fridge, green bathroom sink, green bathtub. Thank god my car is Hugger Orange! But my first Camaro was Rally Green. As for paperwork, I know of a 10K mile, original owner 69 Z28 Rally Green that is in mint condition. He doesn't have a clue where any paperwork is for the car. I know the car is exactly what he says. I would pay more for that car than for a car with so called documentation since any documentation can be faked nowadays. So documentation is really more of comfort factor when buying a vehicle. If you think the paperwork has been faked, then you won't buy the car. If it looks legit, you're more comfortable buying the car, but there are still no gaurantees. I don't care if it's POP, window sticker, buildsheet or GM of Canada docs, it can all be faked. The GM of Canada is the safest because you can still call them with the VIN and verify that the car is legit. It still doesn't mean the engine hasn't been restamped or altered. That's why the records that Chevrolet has that Jim M's group is working on is so valuable. More comfort knowing that the car is legit.

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone is navie to think buildsheets can't be faked, however there are a lot of subtle things that verify a sheet as being authentic.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could say the same thing about the car itself! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

True, and I'm certainly not saying I've not owned some cars that I thought were completely legit and that had nothing more than title searches. However I didn't pay what the cars are "worth" today, and when sold they weren't sold for top dollar either. I think there are a lot cars without factory docs that are legit, but if I'm looking at the "big picture," I'm concerned about possible re-sale (never know when I might have to sell..)so IMO factory docs are the only way to go. Yes buildsheets can be faked, but if you educate yourself and research what original docs look like, you won't get burned..The materials to fake them aren't available (the actual sheets are distinct plant to plant) and the way the different factories coded the options and the fonts they used are unique plant to plant..With POP's the materials and "look" are universal and they have been avaiable for sometime..A POP "made" 15 years ago, can look aged and will appear original. Since there isn't any "special" wording, unique paper or type font, I personally don't think they can be used to validate a car. They are nice to have, and in conjunction with other docs can further lend credulence the car is legit, BUT they don't validate by themselves. Same with other non-factory docs...Just my opinion..

[yountto]

Joe, Youre a parts vendor too..i know i have enough stuff here myself to make 10 copos if i chose....the point is dated parts dont make a car... The reason 437 alternators and 499 distributors are thousands of dollars is because the undocumented cars get them to create a sense of "documentation" and originality....Ill take a canada paperwork driver COPO with a 350 engine over any undocumented "#s match" COPO ANY day of the week...

[Charley Lillard]

So I have a Friend with a Triple black RS M22 COPO that has orig drivetrain but no paperwork. He has known the car since new and it needs resto. You are saying you would take the 350 COPO over it because it has paperwork ? I think every individual car is different and has its own circumstances. I would take this Black RS COPO over almost any other COPO, with or without paperwork.

[camarojoe]

Yountto, I'm not saying i don't think paperwork is needed... hell, I'd take a car with a stack of original docs over one with none too... my point is just that cars that may not have all this stuff saved with it for 30+ years shouldn't just be considered "worthless" compared to cars with paper. I just helped my father sell a 69 X33 Z/28 that has never had a stitch of paperwork with it since he bought it in 1986. Does that mean its not a real Z? Should he have just let it rot away under the pine tree where it was sitting? By now I'm sure it would have been crushed and turned into a Subaru. My point is that even without paperwork, alot of cars still can be determined beyond a shadow of a doubt to be legit...at LEAST as easily as someone can tell if a buildsheet or POP is real...While paperwork may make them easier sells, there are many cars without documents that are real-deal cars, and shouldn't be considered "suspect". For the record, I know nothing about the LS6 in question, and am just speaking generally. Besides, as long as folks buy and restore these cars, you can sell em' 900.00 alternators and i can sell em' 600.00 license plate frames, and everyone is happy.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Belair62]

When did you guys put this stuff on sale !!!

[yountto]

As Greg C stated earlier,whether you buy a car for enjoyment or investment you always have to think about down the road...I prefer to have factory paperwork because most people buying big $$ cars want it ,plus i can make my own undocumented car if i wanted and probably save 50k ...I wouldnt want to be in a situation where i rely on a "my friend bought it new,heres his phone #" to secure my 200k investment.You know your friend and know the car is real,but after a few more people buy it it becomes a 5 owner undocumented car that 2 friends once owned ....If i just wanted a car to use and enjoy then id take the car you speak of.....I have never seen a collection where the owner weeded out his factory paperwork cars to make room for the undocumented ones.... have you???

[Charley Lillard]

If I had a documented COPO Camaro and the owner wanted to work out a trade for his black one I would do it in a second.

Charley,

I think we can all agree that personal knowledge of a particular car might affect your view to buy or not. However what if you go to sell that car, to say someone that has no prior knowledge of it. Now I know you are well respected in the hobby, but I don't think someones' level of respect should be what we base purchases on...I would bet if you bought the car and then went to sell it, you would ask top dollar..Therefore someone paying top dollar should expect to get a "no excuses" car...No having to second guess, no explaining to others..No having to buy a "story"..instead they should pay top dollar based on the idea that the car validates itself. Im my opinion the only way today with the fraud out there is to buy a car with factory docs..I have never really spoken to Kevin S., but from what I understand he will only buy a car that has factory paper...is it because he only finds those cars interesting..doubtful..I would guess (Kevin please step in here..:) that it is to protect his investments..I used to collect WWII US and German martial weapons, and the one thing that was always stressed by other collectors to me, (especially when starting out) was buy the gun..not the story. It is always better to buy a car with paperwork and documents then without..A documented car with unquestionable docs will always bring more money than a similar non-documented car regardless of "owner" history or who is sellling...

[Jeff H]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had a documented COPO Camaro and the owner wanted to work out a trade for his black one I would do it in a second.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same with the low mile original owner Z28 I mentioned. Each car has it's good points and bad points. And each car appeals to a specific type of person. So saying a certain documented car is worth more or less than an undocumented car is really just stating a personal opinion. The market will determine what a given car is worth and the associated risk in buying it. I prefer to have documents with a car, but if it's a very limited production car, you don't have much choice if you really want one.

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think someones' level of respect should be what we base purchases on...

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I'd rather buy a car based on my respect of the people who know the car and have owned it, than from someone I'm not sure I trust but has "alot of paperwork" with the car. Earlier, When you were inquiring about a camaro you had prior knowledge of, and felt the need to "go public" with the info, did you have paperwork to back up your claims? No, but you had the word of people you knew and trusted, who had owned, and were associated with the car...and based your judgement on that. I really don't see how that's any different than buying a car based on the respect and knowledge of the car's history from previous owners. I always have looked at paperwork as being an added "bonus" to a good car, but just as I've seen legit cars without papers, I've also seen alot of questionable cars that had stacks of it. I'm sure you have too. JMO.

[yountto]

"I prefer to have documents with a car, but if it's a very limited production car, you don't have much choice if you really want one."....................This is exactly the point.You are basically saying that since Ls6 ragtops are rare,go to any extreme to try and validate the undocumented ones...because you cant find many real ones?? To me a car is either documented or not,wheter its a 300k ls6 ragtop or 50k L78 camaro

[Charley Lillard]

" and the one thing that was always stressed by other collectors to me, (especially when starting out) was buy the gun..not the story".... I consider the Black RS car the Gun... Paperwork would be nice but not imperative on that car. As I said earlier, each car has its own circumstances. Yes paperwork is great but sometimes the cars speak for themselves. The RS COPO discussed here is schedualed for a restoration where I'm sure there will be many pics taken of it in its current condition and as it is coming apart. Those pics will become part of that cars History and would help answer any questions later on that might be asked by prospective future buyers.. "It is always better to buy a car with paperwork and documents then without..A documented car with unquestionable docs will always bring more money than a similar non-documented car regardless of "owner" history or who is sellling... " I agree but that does not mean the car with no paperwork is not worth having. You can ask KS his opinion but even he has tried to buy the car I am talking about. He might use the no paperwork part to try and get it cheaper but he still wants the car.

Point taken..Keep in mind though the Yenko post was after research and talking to others that I do repsect, AND it wasn't anything other than relaying a known history....If you look "they" are referenced as the ones that mentioned it appeared to be a rebody..Not me..

"I made a few inquires here and after a few discussions located the car. The current owner has had the car about 1 year, and after talking to him knows the "history" on his car. I have also talked to a few other people that know the car and they feel comfortable that the car was a "firewall back rebody." It is still a bonafide Yenko VIN, just not an original sheetmetal car. "


I merely relayed the info and took the "heat" for telling the facts...Think of this..since I made the info "public" let's say someone goes to buy the car...should they automatically "right it off??" NO..they should read what what said, and allow the car to "tell" them what is the correct answer basedon their own views....then they make their own mind up as to whether to buy...

All I did there was post facts..whether others choose to believe them is another story..Some believe Oswald shot Kennedy...My training at MTU and trying to duplicate the act tells me otherwise...It is up to the individual to figure out which they believe..Same with these cars..Given the situation I'll consider who the owner is, but I won't buy for that reason alone...I'll buy based on the documentation that supports the car..

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
Point taken..Keep in mind though the Yenko post was after research and talking to others that I do repsect

[/ QUOTE ]

My point exactly. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Mr70]

Yountto
You must believe this LS6 Convertible is authentic as the seller States in his ad,even without Bonafide Documents or paperwork to back it up.
*You are the originator of this topic,possibly to get public opinion on it before bidding?
*You have bid numerous times on it as 427_king?
*It is in your Home State,yet you state you know nothing about it,nor have even made the trek to go see it,and yet still bid on it?
*You knew about this Car in the past,as we all did from Ebay auctions,so it sounds somewhat like you have regrets in wishing you obtained it earlier?

Understand I am asking you sincerely,and not bashing you or this Chevelle in anyway,just trying to understand your position on it.
Rick

Charley,

I am not saying I wouldn't want to buy it..lol Ity sounds like a neat car..I however wouldn't pay what a similar car WITH paperwork is bringing..I think this is where research comes in..It is only because of the recent 2-3 years and the obscene money being paid on these cars, that people's judgement has gotten clouded on whether a car is validated.. I think if more people stepped back and researched BEFORE buying there would be more of a "normal" market based on tiers of cars..that is 100% factory paperwork validated cars would be top, and subsequent tiers would be cars with less paperwork..this isn't what is really going on here...Any potential COPO (whether validated with factory paperwork or not)is selling at the same price a documented car is..There is a perceived limited amount of cars out there, and guys will pay whatever to own one..What is being forgotten is that these cars are only worth the money to other like minded collectors..Take a poll and see if your co-workers will pay 150k for a 1969 Camaro that has stripes saying "yenko" on them..Most will look stupid at you..Therefore the "value" is only here among other enthusiast..They are not "universally" accepted commodities such as gold, real estate, ect..If the hobby doesn't revert back to stressing factory paperwork over perceived rarity then there will be a lot of hurt feelings down the road..Just my opinion

Rick,

I will say that Chuck has emailed me offline and he knows more about the car than his post might indicate...This is a not a negative comment and shouldn't be perceived as such..

[Charley Lillard]

"If the hobby doesn't revert back to stressing factory paperwork over perceived rarity then there will be a lot of hurt feelings down the road..Just my opinion " I can find a plain SS Camaro with tons of paperwork but that doesn't mean I gotta have it. The Rarity has alot to do with it. In my opinion , even more than paperwork. If I could find a twin to this Black RS COPO and it had paperwork I would buy it instead but I don't know of any others that exist. A cool rare car is a cool rare car, even if it has no paperwork. Yountto might not be endorsing the Ebay LS6 but he is a bidder on it so I assume even he would own it even with no paperwork because it is a cool and rare car.

[yountto]

Simply put FACTORY docs stand the test of time to any buyer any time,heresay and opinions need to be rehashed everytime an undocumented car sells to a new owner.If the new owner has a different circle of friends than the last,the doubt gets harder to swallow.....Buying a car solely based on the owner history is absurd...wealthy and respectable guys make mistakes too...The only thing is they get to bail out of thier mistakes when the undocumented car sits next to 4 documented shiny six figure cars....An undocumented COPO in a showroom of 2 million worth of cars versus the same car from "Cletus" in virginia..whos gonna be ridiculed,and which ones gonna sell first???????

[Charley Lillard]

"An undocumented COPO in a showroom of 2 million worth of cars versus the same car from "Cletus" in virginia..whos gonna be ridiculed,and which ones gonna sell first???????"... What makes you think Cletus is gonna be ridiculed ? And why are you bidding on a car with no paperwork ?

[yountto]

I would buy the car if its real or not for my bid price....

It is very true that there are true rarities that will command value whether having factory paperwork or not..The problems arise though when we start equating all cars of a certain type ie..Yenko Camaros, COPO's, etc... A COPO without any other docs shouldn't sell for thesame thing as a factory doced car...but they do..that was the point I was making..Until the hobby realizes that the prices and rationale behind the current prices is based on over specualtion and a "perceived" rarity..they made quite a few COPO's and LS6's..then people will continue to pay too much for certain cars and once the market falls or self corrects there will be a lot of money lost..We can always equate this current "musclecar" market to the stock market of 1998-1999..Way too much specualtion followed by over priced goods, followed by a self correction= lots of $$ lost....

[camarojoe]

Hey I know Cletus.. and he's as honest as the day is long. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

This argument could go on forever... as i think Jeff H put it... each situation and each buyer is different. What is essential for one person might not mean squat to the next, and vice versa. Some valid points have been made on both sides of the fence.

[Belair62]

It's not a "perceived" rarity though.....a COPO is a lot more rare than an LS6. Prices will refect that.

That is a matter of personal opinion...I wouldn't take 95% of the COPO's out there for the green LS6 if one is judging rarity..It would be very hard to sell 1 of 10-15 "pilot cars," for 1 of 500 or so COPO's, and I have verifiable factory docs to boot along with what is customary on COPO's (POP, owner history). Especially when the LS6 is considered by many to be the pinacle of factory performance by Chevrolet on a regular production car (more HP, bigger engine, same ET's, etc.) during the "musclecar' era. Whether my description of "rarity" is yours or not can be debated, but we can agree to disagreeon certain cars. I think only time will tell once this current market "self corrects," i'm sure the guys in it making tons of money in 1988-89 never thought it would end either...but it did. There was a time not too long ago (a decade) a COPO was 30k and an LS6 was the same...maybe if we got back to that it would weed out the specualtors and non-enthusiast. The guy that truly appreciates the cars (whether he wants a COPO, LS6, or a 440 sixpack) could again own one and this topic would be pretty much pointless. As I've often said..if I want an investment I'll personally buy real estate or "tradtional" investments (blue chips) as they are more easily liquid and the "masses" will more easily see the "value." It is sadly a topic which will never be completely closed, as it is based on belief.

[mmcporter]

[ QUOTE ]
..Way too much specualtion followed by over priced goods, followed by a self correction= lots of $$ lost....

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> Greg, was there really money lost over the long term? No, only for a brief period if we are talking about muscelcars. LS6s, Z/28s, etc lost some ground in the early 90's, then "corrected", but are now higher than they were during the peak. Ferraris like the F40 peaked and tanked and have never recovered, but musclecars have gained overall since the last boom. </font>

Morris,

I think it is more of an issue because the current boom in musclecars followed the largest boom in traditional investments. The same guys paying 150k for a Yenko Camaro are the same guys 5 years ago dumping tons of money in the market..That tanked and hasn't fully recovered so they are looking for a windfall elsewhere..If the accounting scandals of 2 years ago and other events that surpressed the market wouldn't have happened, we probably would have already seen the turn down already IMO..At what point is it too much,...keep in mind that the people willing to pay 275k for a Chevelle are the same people here..Put these cars onto the open market via auction or outside of a website devoted to it and see what it does..That in my opinion is a truer sense of "market value" If these cars (or really any car) were great investments they would be easily specualted all the time..look historically and what do you see..The market crashes in 1987..musclecar and other "commodites" go up..the market recovers and prices fall..the market tanks and prices on muslcecars go up...when the market rallies and people realize the only ones paying 275k for certain cars are their buddies then they will bail out as well..the musclecar hobby benefited from baby boomers that grew up with them and the prices reflect disposable income..If you want to see if they are true investments wait til the guys in my generation (30's..) are willing to pay 250k for one..I highly doubt we will as a whole..The true test of a solid investment in my mind is one that stands the test of time and market...real estate, art, gold, etc.. It becomes a domino effect when one gets out they all will..the Ferrari F40 was way over specualted as most modern "high speed low drag" cars are..The market prices now reflect the over specualtion..Keep in mind at that time it was still a brand new car...that was governed by all new car laws..they depreciate..

[Belair62]

I wasn't talking about pilot cars !! Can you imagine what the first pilot COPO Camaro would be worth ?? Was there a pilot for them ?...and we all know rare doesn't necessarily equate to valuable...440 sixpacks huh ...I would love one of those one of these days !

[Jeff H]

Greg, I don't think the limited production performance car market will tank like it did before. This time around a lot of people realized how limited the number of surviving cars is and if you want one, you better grab one. There are only so many ZL1's to choose from, same for JL8's, L89's, LS6 convertibles, Yenko's, etc. And if all the documented cars' owners don't want to sell, then the undocumented #'s matching cars will climb to the same price level because that's all you have to choose from. Plain old Z28's and SS350 cars may drop back down as well as SS396 Chevelles because the supply is bigger than the demand.

[KLONECO]

OUCH...........THESE WISDOM TEETH!!!!!!!!!!!

[Born30YrsLate]

[ QUOTE ]
The true test of a solid investment in my mind is one that stands the test of time and market...real estate, art, gold, etc..

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, as myself not being from the baby boomer group, is that these classic muscle cars...supercars in particular are pieces of American art themselves from a time in modern America's history were it seemed (at least from my perspective) these cars were the definition of the time just like different sorts of art work have been (paintings, sculptures, pottery, architecture...etc) defined other periods of history.......the generation that was young (young, being a relative term http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) when Duesenbergs were new are not the majority of the ones buying them these days (if my math is correct)....just my humble opinion and 1.5 cents worth from one of the "young guys".....PARTY ON! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[KLONECO]

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!not that the hobby has changed!.....just the interested parties!!! all the people for years have wanted the "SS RS " wheels,"tunnel rams, sold parts....... added certain features, eliminated "BADGES" emblems etc......whatever the case may be.........IF IT IS A # 'S THING GOOD! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif 1 ...! THERE IT SHALL BE..........2 HOBBY!!!!!.......there it shall be!!!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif 3 ground up ........leftover parts! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif personnal enjoyment that to shall be!1 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif but............as they say "don't crush em" restore 'em!!!!!!.........why must a boy,girl,woman, or man be condemmed for enjoying this "hobby"?????????????????????? whatever the car may be! (except foreign!) lol !!! just trying to keep this hobby together!!!!! Many posts have been refered to&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; TEAM CHEVELLE.......or a camaro club! or some other aspect...........shelby ,etc. GTO ,MUSTANG, PONTIAC! as long as some heritage is preserved!!!! who cares! those who own know! those who cherish know!those who care understand!............. what is the harm in understanding the differance??????? ENJOY EM .........!! ....every cruise night..SCR show ...............or in in the front of your home!!!!!! HECK IN YOUR MIND( dreams)!!!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif is it not a bond of some sort?....a story to be told????????? why must it seem inferior? I would hate to see how many COPO cars are hidden in fake dresses!!!!!!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[mmcporter]

[ QUOTE ]
Morris,

I think it is more of an issue because the current boom in musclecars followed the largest boom in traditional investments. The same guys paying 150k for a Yenko Camaro are the same guys 5 years ago dumping tons of money in the market..That tanked and hasn't fully recovered so they are looking for a windfall elsewhere..If the accounting scandals of 2 years ago and other events that surpressed the market wouldn't have happened, we probably would have already seen the turn down already IMO..At what point is it too much,...keep in mind that the people willing to pay 275k for a Chevelle are the same people here..Put these cars onto the open market via auction or outside of a website devoted to it and see what it does..That in my opinion is a truer sense of "market value" If these cars (or really any car) were great investments they would be easily specualted all the time..look historically and what do you see..The market crashes in 1987..musclecar and other "commodites" go up..the market recovers and prices fall..the market tanks and prices on muslcecars go up...when the market rallies and people realize the only ones paying 275k for certain cars are their buddies then they will bail out as well..the musclecar hobby benefited from baby boomers that grew up with them and the prices reflect disposable income..If you want to see if they are true investments wait til the guys in my generation (30's..) are willing to pay 250k for one..I highly doubt we will as a whole..The true test of a solid investment in my mind is one that stands the test of time and market...real estate, art, gold, etc.. It becomes a domino effect when one gets out they all will..the Ferrari F40 was way over specualted as most modern "high speed low drag" cars are..The market prices now reflect the over specualtion..Keep in mind at that time it was still a brand new car...that was governed by all new car laws..they depreciate..

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> I relate musclecars to Will Rogers' quote about real estate: "They aint making any no more." </font>

Good point Morris,

However you really can't equate something out of production, with it remaining to be a tried and true investment. In my opinion the main reason that the cars "resurged" in 2001 or so, was largely a result of a sluggish economy,the internet (websites like this..), having an investment that is tangible, and the baby boomers. When these guys get too old or start dying off (they are in their mid 40's at best)the cars will drop in value, as it will be hard for the "younger" generations (of which I'm an example) to justify paying what the "perceived" value will be. Look at pre-war Fords, model "A" and "T" cars, etc..As the generation that appreciates the respective cars dies off...the prices drop and stay there as the cars were massed produced, are American (as opposed to European (perceived inferior quality)), and are not accepted by non-enthusiast as being worth the money.

When one argues that they are "works of art," one must keep in mind that these cars were mass produced, are currently largely over restored (how many "true" concourse frame offs have you seen lately...drips, runs, no paint or clear on natural metal, etc.). Since they were essentially mass transportation, available to anyone (Yenkos, BM, etc. included)it is going to be hard to justify to future generations future value. Look at "tradtional" investments outside of stocks, bonds, real estate, etc.. Art was traditionally done one off or commissioned for royalty, jewerly same (Faberge...), real estate..well that is a no brainer....can't always add more..a finite number..These are investments that im my opinion will fluctuate to soem degree, but will always be worth money to the masses. Musclecars are a largley American icon of the "baby boomer " generation..when they go so does the perceived value..sure they will still be worth money as theey aren't making them any longer and they have intrinsic value, but the prices will correct to what is considered a more rational level.

These cars are great fun and while they are currently bringing large sums of money do we really think they always will..For the most part people here thumb their noses at younger car enthusiast (the "ricer generation..") Yet aren't they the ones that in 20 years will be in a postion to have the disposable income to buy a car to drive only on weekends (if at all..)??? Who do you guys think you are going to sell your 300k ZL1's and 150K Yenko Camaros and 275k Chevelles to?? Each other.??? When you guys want to cash out, so will the other people specualting on these cars..Therefore they will need to go to a future generation..What do they think about paying 275k for a car that doesn't get driven, has no A/C, needs a gorilla to push in the clutch, handles and rides like a buckboard, etc...Now I'm not knocking the cars (or anyone here for that matter), as obiviously I own them too..I just am not paying obscene amounts of money hoping they hold their value, and trying to justify that they will always be safe investments...

[Stuart Adams]

At this point will someone pour me a drink!!!

[Belair62]

Greg...don't worry..the kids can buy an LS 6 to drive and keep the ZL1 in the garage !!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif (you knew that was coming)

[Musclecarkid]

No thanks, I ate lunch yesterday.Going to watch some paint dry now.Encrypted message????????????? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

LOL...yeah..maybe so..especially since most of those ZL1's have to be lowered off the trailers with a winch...might be fun to see if they could actually make it out of the garage under their own power...:) Doubt many owners of a ZL1 (a few exceptions noted..) would spin their car at 6500 RPM's lighting up the rears....after all they don't call them "trailer QUEENS" for nothing...;)

[yountto]

Belair, I disagree,the younger generation will like what they were brought up on "2fast2furious"...clone yenkos.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif .....why dont you take up some donations for Chris' cat[in the parts for sale aluminum heads post]..i think he needs an IV and some food...

[Belair62]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif but what the heck was with that cat deal anyway !!!Inside joke or what !

[yountto]

Ebay Item # 2462248976....Look at the ad chris has in parts for sale below [842 aluminum heads].....Send Chris a donation so he can feed his cat....

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

IMO, Morris is 100% right on the money, followed by Greg. The young guys I talk to will never pay this money for these cars in 15-20 years, even though they will be able to afford them.

[Jeff Murphy]

[ QUOTE ]
When these guys get too old or start dying off (they are in their mid 40's at best) the cars will drop in value

[/ QUOTE ]

Whew!!! I'm glad I'm only 37 and I've got a 15 month son that already knows the difference between Dad's cars. I might of been scared into cashing out. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

With regard to wheel spinning and getting around under their own power, you really should try to make it to the Reunion:

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/72217-SCR6%20-%200291.jpg

We could stand to take a lesson from our sports car racing brethren in this regard. They race irreplaceable cars (we're talking 1 of 4 type stuff here, much less 1 of 69) all the time and fix em up when they get busted. It's part of the cars' mystique -- if they don't get raced they go DOWN in value because they are no longer in the public eye. Kudos to the Clarys, Pete Simpson, Ken Boje, Market Hassett, Barnhart, Porterfield and others for living the dream!! And for Holub and Hand for lighting the tires up in the cul de sac whenever they've got unexpected house guests.

[Belair62]

Thats what I said 20 years ago Marlin...twenty years ago you could buy a house around here for 40k....400k now.

[Charley Lillard]

One of four ?

[Jeff Murphy]

You know, Aston Martin DB4 Zagato race cars, Daytona Shelby Coupes, Corvette Gran Sports, Ferrari 250 LMs (see below) that kind of stuff...

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/72225-100-0046_IMG.jpg

Most of those make '71 Cuda convertibles look cheap.

PS Don't let Billigen see this picture... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
Look at the ad chris has in parts for sale

[/ QUOTE ] http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif No offense Chris but I think the parents of that little kitty made a pass thru Charleys house...looks king of like a Cat-a-poo !!!Charley quit spreading those genes around will you.

If your goal is to keep the cars in your family, then it doesn't matter if they are worth $20 million or $20..as their value is irrelevant..However how many guys that are in their mid 20's or early 30's feel that a Yenko camaro is worth 150k?? I would bet if you asked most would rather put the same 150k in a 911 TT or a Ford GT..Whether it is right or not is personal opinion..Look at what the wealthy younger generation (my generartion) buys...it isn't concourse Yenkos, Motion Camaros, or COPO's..Instead it is "Essee's", mostly European sedans, high speed low drag sports cars,or if it is old, it is tricked out and has more electronics than Langley...This is what "we" like and value..not some 40 year old car that you don't drive and have to worry might throw a rod and cut the value by 1/2...How many original cars show up at shows and the owners are under 35??? The point is you guys are the reason these cars are worth so much money...when you guys either cash out and move on or your relatives do, only time will tell if you get your money out..

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
...This is what "we" like and value..not some 40 year old car that you don't drive and have to worry might throw a rod and cut the value by 1/2...

[/ QUOTE ]

Speak for yourself...but not for THIS 28 year old. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

And, for arguments sake, I sold a nice driver LS-6 Chevelle WITH paperwork to buy a basket case, no paperwork Yenko Chevelle...

[Jeff H]

Well, I'm not a baby boomer and I'm dumping a ton of money into my JL8 restoration because I really like these old muscle cars. These newer "sports" cars are a dime a dozen and half or them have already been bought and stored in a garage as an investment. Plain old Camaros and Chevelles might drop in value but the top of the line musclecars won't. If Yenkos all dropped to $100K tomorrow, I'm sure there would be a buyer for every single one.

[yountto]

We have another bidder with 45 minutes to go[gees some guys need ebay bid training]...you guys better stop batting penguins and hunker down ! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[gemleeus]

doesn't make a 71 hemi cuda convertible look cheap.

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
..However how many guys that are in their mid 20's or early 30's feel that a Yenko camaro is worth 150k??

[/ QUOTE ]

I DO!! I DO!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jeff Murphy]

I'm with you Rob, Jeff and Joe.

Deusenbergs, Cords, Auburns, Bugattis, pre-war Bentleys, etc. all go up and down in price but you can look through the volatility and see them generally trending up. But how is that possible if the vast majority of the cars are owned now by people that can't possibly have been alive when the cars could be bought new? Why do you think they hold their value? I think they hold their value because they're beautiful, built by master craftsmen, are rare, represented the pinnacle of their day from an engineering and performance standpoint and remind people of a perceived "Golden Age".

Think about it...if you were in your mid-20s in 1955 you'd be pushing 75-80 today, you may not go out and buy a T-Bird, early Vette, Jag XK120 or Mercedes 300SL Gullwing, but there are plenty of people that were either wearing short pants or not even alive that would love to own one of them, me included.

Consider this, I was 2 1/2 years old when my ZL-1 was sent back to Norwood and my COPO left the same factory. It's not like I was there with Dennis Hartweg when the first two ZL-1s were delivered to LaHarpe. I don't even remember when I saw my first Camaro. So why do I like them so much and am I willing to pay "the big bucks" for them? It just so happens that my uncle, who some board members happen to know, is an Oldsmobile guy who had 3 or 4 Cutlass W-31 or 4-4-2 W-30s around in the late 70s/early 80s (still does). His cars were far cooler, faster, more visceral than any whistling, popping 930 Turbo or Ferrari Boxer that was new in that era (not to mention would leave them behind over a 1-2 block street race). I still clearly remember finding for the first time a place to hang on under the passenger seat by the frame rail when he stomped it -- I found that same place when Carl Stuber gave me my first panic ride in a Yenko at SCR5. I'm sure many of us have similar stories to tell as will other future, younger buyers of these cars.

Not only do my cars give me an emotional boost because of that, but I like what they represent: they're beautiful, built by master craftsmen (well, maybe not that part first time around), are rare, represented the pinnacle of their day from an engineering and performance standpoint and remind me of a perceived "Golden Age" (and I don't mean Flower Power).

I'm confident that these cars will continue to go up in value due to these factors. Maybe, like the stock market, many of us will hit a trough in the Supercar market when it comes time to sell, but over the long haul if you've bought the right car the trend should be up. Are there better investments? Without doubt. Are there more satisfying investments? Maybe. Have I found one that gives me the same mix of potential upside, emotional kick and entree into a fantastic community of friendly, interesting, knowledgeable, devoted and, in many cases, just down right good folk. Not even close.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Jeff Murphy]

[ QUOTE ]
doesn't make a 71 hemi cuda convertible look cheap.


[/ QUOTE ]

Fair point! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[camarojoe]

Fact is, you're on the wrong message board if you're looking for supporters of your "supercars will be worthless someday" crusade. I think just the opposite...prices of Yenkos, COPOs, etc. have nowhere to go but up. Wait a few years and see if you can buy these cars for the prices they sell at today or less...with the increasing rarity of original parts, the depletion of "unfound" cars, and the cost of restoration going higher and higher each year, it's not gonna happen.

[yountto]

90k !! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[Belair62]

I hope the wealthy younger generation wises up...you keep buying those european high dollar clunkers and you aren't going to be wealthy long !!!Talk about depreciation...buy an "esses" whatever that is (i'm old) now for 80k and sell it for 25 in 5 years !...I have been a "car guy" since I was 5 years old along with a few others in my family.We have had cool cars ever since we could drive.I think the young guys who are into imports now because they are cheap will hopefully settle down,run the country right,stop buying euro crap,hold on to their wealth in whatever form that is and say to themselves "I think I am finally going to buy that Yenko now"

[Jeff Murphy]

Hey!!!! Don't point that reply at me, Mister!

I just spent twenty minutes typing thoughtful prose. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
90k !! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

So much for the theory of cars without paperwork being worthless!

[Charley Lillard]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[Belair62]

Hey we are having fun here Charley...go feed your Horse-a-poos and cat-huhuas

[yountto]

No one ever said undocumented cars were worthless.......just worth less than documented ones.....this just means a documented restored Ls6 convertible is 250 to 300k....

[Mr70]

It Does? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Charley Lillard]

So because the one on Ebay sells for 90K you are saying a documented restored one is now worth 250 to 300K ? Just because of the ebay sale ? This is getting goofier by the minute....Now that I think about it, you were probably joking....

[69_BM_LS7]

Chuck did you sell your LS6 convertible?

[gemleeus]

yes that was heartfelt jeff. you are right, imo. the value of something is whatever the particular person holds it at in his or her own heart. my uncle recalls those years of the 61-65 drag years, 421 catalinas,wedge mopars,ford thunderbolts,z11's. the z11 is one of the most awesome cars ever built to some people and to others it doesn't hold the same appreciation, it was "before" their time they just don't realize the significance of the cars of that era. to me they are all great, i love em all.by no means should anyone downplay the beauty and craftsmanship of the vintage alfas,ferraris,porsche, bugatti, or other cars of that breed.yes,it is like a rollercoaster, right now the muscle cars are at the top.
IMHO

[Enoch]

OK so who's Snakebite 500? And congrars to Him (or Her).

[mmcporter]

Hey listen, even the "out of favor oldies" like Packards and LaSalles are still trading at high 6 figure prices. Somebody still likes those cars and is willing to pay what it takes to buy 'em. Anyone who puts all his $$ into one thing (like only musclecars) or one bond fund for investment purposes is asking for trouble. We all know that you have to diversify: LS6s, 'Vettes, Hemis, Shelbys.......etc.

Finally someone that understands investing...It is really funny how some on here can completely miss a point...If you re-read my post you will find that I appreciate the cars, but I don't think the prices that you guys (again show me 3 Yenko Camaros in the last year that didn't go to people here) are paying borders on stupid...If they weren't being sold or traded to only "friends" and guys on here then I'd appreciate the value..I really don't care if you guys over speculate, it is after all your money..It is interesting though how it seems to me that it is only the "supercars," that are being grossly over priced...might be a reason for that..hmmm

[Chris396]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif Musclecars are on their way out. That’s why I’m putting my money into big-eared cats.

[gemleeus]

bill goldberg bought one last year, i don't think he's a member here.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Now there's a genius! (Don't tell him I said that http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
That's it, I'm selling my Yenko Deuce for $150k and buying pork rinds!

[yountto]

Its seems a spin has been put on some comments made here.I dont think Greg C or anyone else has said these cars will be worthless and to hurry and have a fire sale..I also agree with a few statements that the cars that will never suffer are the ultra low production and massive horsepower ZL1s,Hemi cuda and Ls6 converts...If however you dont think this market will suffer if interest rates rise a few points,maybe you need to enroll in a few economic courses at a local college...

[Belair62]

I think you are assuming that people treat these as investments...and I don't think that is the case.If interest rises a whole lot of things will suffer...what's the point ? Yountto ...got any Pontiac stuff ?

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I think that a lot of people do treat them like investments, but 'short term' investments. Once they see that the DJIA is back, they will put their money there.

Over the long term, yes the muscle cars have gradually increased in value. However, they are very poor investments, comparitively speaking to Wall Street. For example, if you bought a Yenko Deuce in '70 for it's $4400 sticker price, and kept it real nice, it might bring around $65-80k today. If you had invested that $4400 in an average fund that gave you a 35 year avge ROR of 12%, compounded monthly, you would have approximately $290k today!

So, if you are in it for the long term, it doesn't matter what they are worth in dollars because the real rate of return is your personal enjoyment http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SuperCars]

I get a lot of emails and calls asking to buy cars. It is rarity/desirability of a car combined with supply and demand. For example right now there are 2 or 3 ultra-wealthy collectors trying to buy a 71 Hemi Cuda Conv. These guys are immune to any economic down turns when it comes to what they can afford to pay. So when you have 2 or 3 more buyers, than actual cars to exist, crazy money is offered on cars. But for plentiful and less rare cars, of which there are enough to go around; they will stay at normal prices because you can always seem to find one come up for sale.

Most of you on here have see this with the 427 Yenko Novas at it's record high. It's because there are more buyers wanting one than there are 427 Yenko Novas to exist. That is when prices go sky high. I feel LS6 Convertibles are currently way under-priced, based on the numbers of them to exist.

[yountto]

Belair if people dont treat these cars as investments and we should buy cars for enjoyment, why did you make this statement yesterday ? Whats wrong with buying a "european clunker" if its what you enjoy,then????......QUOTE "I hope the wealthy younger generation wises up...you keep buying those european high dollar clunkers and you aren't going to be wealthy long !!!Talk about depreciation...buy an "esses" whatever that is (i'm old) now for 80k and sell it for 25 in 5 years

[Charley Lillard]

"It is interesting though how it seems to me that it is only the "supercars," that are being grossly over priced...might be a reason for that..hmmm" .....hmmm, maybe they bring good money because they are "Supercars". Didn't the Yenko you were bashing sell for good Money outside of this little circle ? I can also think of three ZL1's that went for big money within the last year outside of this circle.

[Belair62]

It was in response to Gregs point about the young wealthy people buying esses...I don't buy my cars as an investment...it just turned out that they are looking more and more like a good one...I usually buy high and sell low ! The thread started with you posting a look and see on an LS 6 convert.Then it went into a value/vs. doc's and how a COPO is this or that and shouldn't be as valuable as they are and that they trade and get inflated by a few people and no one buys them but a few people and yadda yadda....then we went into investments...what was the point really ? I would imagine you of all people should be kind of glad that the prices are where they are...

[Steve Shauger]

Price has always been about supply and demand. A premium is put on a car that has historical significance, much like your "pilot car" you are selling. I am sure you feel it is worth more do to its status. I feel the same for copo's, and low/desirable production cars. I feel you are speculating on the intent of the supercar owners which is uncalled for. At least for me this is still a hobbie, which has introduced me to some great individuals.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif

[Belair62]

Is the pilot car for sale ???

[camarojoe]

Now its all starting to make sense... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Steve Shauger]

2 FORSALE: 1970 Chevelle LS6 "pilot car" &amp;#8212; Virginia 02/24/2004 &amp;#8212; Details
I'm listing my green 1970 LS6 chevelle "pilot car" for sale. It is a matching numbered (engine and all accessories (carb, wp, manifolds, dist, etc.), trans, rear), fully documented car. The car has 2 buildsheets (both showing the "pilot status"), a POP, original owner info.&amp; zone rep info (can call both and discuss), and a letter from Jim Mattison attesting to the "pilot status." The car is very highly optioned, was cosmetically restored in 1995. Car has CI, gauges, buckets, tilt, cushion grip,p/s,rear defroster,am/fm stero, posi,etc. Picures avaiable upon request. If you are a tire kicker don't waste my time..If you want info. call me...not some "guru," that hasn't seen the car...Phone is 800-669-5834 or 804-314-7732 or 804-932-8547..This is an investment that you can drive and enjoy, so no BS'ers..If you want a "run of the mill" LS6 look elsewhere...This is the only "pilot car" LS6 found to date and it IS the earliest (good possibity the FIRST production LS6)car to date as well..

Man you guys really "read" into things...guess that is a way to discredit my opinion or viewpoint since I differ from some of you...Guess since I hang out at Langley or Peary some you guys will next have me knowing where Hoffa is and who shot Kennedy (not Oswald btw...lol) Whether the "pilot car" is for sale or not has nothing to do with this discussion. I had listed it recently on another site as I'm buying a few more homes (my idea of better investments...go Donald..lol) and wanted some additional cash. Whether I sell it or not isn't procluding me from buying more property to use as investments.. I actually offered the car earlier to someone here for what amounted to the price of a SS396 L34 car as I thought they would appreciate the car, were not a specualtor, and we are good friends.

I bought the car back origianlly in 2001, and didn't pay a "specualted" price. When I bought it back it wasn't for any other reason than I liked it..It wasn't about the money, and I would have paid substantially more money becasue I believe in the car and know it well..The point is I'm just like everyone else..I'm not going to "give it away" and I expect "fair market" value.. However I'm not specualting that this car will always be worth the current prices, nor do I care..It isn't an investment to me..whether short term or long term..The reality though is I bought a car based on my personal likes, BUT since others do perceive these things to be great investments I bought one that is a "no excuses" car..to maximize that asspect of this hobby..I have commerical and residental real estate for investments, along with stocks, bonds, etc.

I personally think it is funny that some of you guys get so worked up over this thread..If it wasn't in the back of your mind (the investment asspect or how overly inflated some cars are), you wouldn't be trying to defend these cars the way you are..You would just realize it is my opinion...

Whether the Yenko that I posted about earlier sells for good money or not is a matter of opinion at this point..My personal opinion is it sold for that much money, probably because there was a naive buyer and less than full disclosure. Charley if you feel it is still work 150k..then buy it and put it up here for others to see..the same goes for anyone else...I'm a Marine and I'm not into a lot of "talk," let's see some action..If you guys feel that these cars are going up all the time..then someone call Mark H. and pay him 325k for the Yenko chevelle..Better yet Mark list the car for 275K at B/J next year or put it in another auction if it sells 9bonafide sale to someone other than ######., ######, or one of the gang..)then I'll admit my opinion was incorrect..I appreciate you guys abililty to pay these amounts and more power to you if you sell them..Just don't get steamed up because I don't have the same opinion on these cars...

BTW.."essee's are Escalades...SUV's are very popular at least here in the "dirty south.."lol

[yountto]

Belair, Ok then,i will make it short..I have a problem with cars that have "joes a good guy", "Tim judged it",and "BOB put gas in it in 1977" as "documenting" a car.Its done more on this site than ANYWHERE else.Probably because theres not alot of documentation available on these cars like buildsheets etc..The "supercars" are usually mentioned because thats what this site is about more than any other car .I dont specifically have ANY problem with copos [and im currently in the market for one],other than i wouldnt own one that wasnt canada documented[my personal preference]unless it was priced as a well done clone[again my personal preference]. ...After watching the Ebay ls6 gain momentum in acceptability because of the ebay bidding list and one persons opinion,i brought up the fact that now that there were members here bidding on it,everyone jumped on the "its an original car" bandwagon,when for the last year it was for sale not nary a word was said.I guess now that the car went elsewhere we can talk about how worthless the ls6s are again.....Can you imagine how many more 435 67 corvettes would be made"legitimate" if the NCRS started "documenting" cars based on a judges opinion and a Zora Duntov signed glove box??]?????? Simply put,you cant campaign a car as 100% legit UNLESS you have factory legitimate paperwork or in the case of the ZL1s,the vin #,and that will always be the universal litmus test...On another note ..On dreamcar garage, in between the "yenko chevelles and camaros are 150k and novas 300k",didnt i hear an "although not as desirable as an Ls6 convertible" in that sentence correct me if i am wrong

Steve

No offense, as I thought we were friends (at least through the phone/internet), but why post the ad for sale?? What difference does it make?? We are discussing opinions here, and mine and yours differ..that is all..why try to read into something?? The 2 have nothing to do with each other...

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Something's fishy here...
Oh, it's just me, &amp; my heads spinnin http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
didn't pay a "specualted" price.

[/ QUOTE ]Are you going to sell it cheap !!! since you didn't pay up for it...this is interesting news that it's for sale ! Yountto..I wouldn't buy one that was presented as that either. But the car you will accept is going to cost a lot of money.Even one of those well restored clones may have some overpriced rare parts on them that the owner may want to recoup..keep looking. Kind of a strange thread and to tell you the truth I had a feeling the pilot car would be for sale...I hope you find one of those young whipper snappers that drive esses to pay up for it Greg. !! I never heard an Escalade called an ess...I like those...with 22's on em !

[Steve Shauger]

I only used your car as an example, because it validated my point " cars with historical significance are at a premium". Nothing more should be read into it. No problem here Greg...

[Supergas990]

I normally don't step into these threads because I don't know any of you and don't want to step on anyones toes.

But, this thread seems to be discussing the kind of problem lots of people would like to have... which one and how much, how many, documented, etc...

I for one would love to have a COPO, Yenko, LS6 Conv, L89 Conv, Motion, etc... and I believe that they are worth a great deal of money. Can I justify that kind of money to my wife and family? Probably not. (If someone wants to sell one that needs a good "no resale" home at a below market price please e-mail me http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif)

Do some people use them as investments? Yes. Do most people that own them enjoy them? Yes.

The bottom line is a car, or anything else for that matter, is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Those with Champaign wishes and Caviar dreams will be able to own some of the greatest cars ever made is America, while those of us with a Miller and Steak will watch from behind the wheels of our SS Chevelles, Camaros, Novas, etc...(also great American made classics). http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

Hope that I didn't ruffle too many feathers. This hobby should NEVER be about the "haves" versus the "have nots". In the end, we're all car guys that can hopefully appreciate each others rides without too much envy. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Blair

Steve,

It was great talking to you..glad everything is great..I hope you have fun with the car..I'm sure it is a gem..

talk soon,

Greg

[Charley Lillard]

...."Whether the Yenko that I posted about earlier sells for good money or not is a matter of opinion at this point..My personal opinion is it sold for that much money, probably because there was a naive buyer and less than full disclosure. Charley if you feel it is still work 150k..then buy it and put it up here for others to see"... Your arguement was that only the select few around this site are paying these artificial prices. That was a example of one that sold for big money outside of this site. The ZL1 in Scottsdale sold to a Dealer for 400K and that also was outside of this site. I'm told that Yountto has sold his LS6 Convert. He has chosen not to answer the question but if he did I wonder if it went to someone outside of this site and if it also went for a artificially inflated price.

[mhassett]

GREG, Why ALL the Mark H COMMENTS???? I DO NOT BUY and SELL these cars!!! It took ALOT of hard work to get the YENKO CHEVELLE and it is NOT for SALE--Even for a big Profit-that is Not why I bought the car.. My Collection of cars means ALOT to me and YES I have even Raced the ZL-1 and my MOTION..
Mark H.

[yountto]

Charley, I will tell you this much..In the past 8 months id taken 2 deposit checks from well known members on this site that were "NSF" when i called the banks they were written on,on the ls6 convertible....Quite frankly,they did me a huge favor...you talk of the ZL1 for 400k,thats because they are all documented by vin......Documented[keyword] factory 427 camaros will always do well in or out of the "circle"...they sell themselves

Mark the comments weren't meant in any disrespect to you..You however have to be aware that your purchase of that car set the "bar" for those cars..quite abit more than anything seen before..Therefore it is going to be used in discussion.I hope that if you decide to sell that the car brings the money you paid for it..It seems to be a nice car from what I've heard..just more than what most are acustomed to seeing being paid, especially for what amounts to a COPO with stripes (again my opinion..)..Again hope no hard feelings, as any referenced post was made for reference only

Charley that was my point as well...The ZL1's have documented VIN's and while I think 400k is steep for one (again that is my opinion)if the buyer needs to sell and it brings 400,001k, more power to him.

As far as LS6 converts...it was always my understanding that this board neither "officially" recognized the LS6 coupe or convert as a "supercar..." (regardless of what some of us thought..) Have those cars now been included??

[SS427]

ENOUGH ALREADY! What really sucks about all this is common people with common interests are bickering over the real reason we are all here. For the enjoyment of these cars. The only thing being gained here is giving some of these cars a bad name and the owners an even worse one. When I joined this site, everyone helped everyone out, now there is a hit list on everyone. Get over it people and enjoy the cars! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

By the way Tom, the checks in the mail. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[JChlupsa]

Agreed. End of Story.