Short of Paying Joel for confirmation....

[Yellow 69 z28]

I have researched all that I can...

I bought the car in the late eighties from a local girl who is still around. She has all kinds of memories of the car but wants to forget the history prior to that because it was her late boyfriend who bought the car new.

The car always had a 427 and it came with a ton of parts and a lot of owner history. The car has no X codes but has always been a Z/28 Daytona yellow with a black vinyl top. (Paint 76 B). The car has been painted a few other shades including white, red, blue (the color it was when I found it) which are evident on the car and in owner history.

The car always had a L88 fiberglass hood until someone forgot to pin it and it flew off like a kite on a stormy night http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif . And if you notice what's up with the ford dual mirrors.

The parts that were on the car, in the trunk, and in the back of my pickup (Had to bring a pick-up to pick up the rest of the parts that came with the car) all point to a B/M or Motion Performance creation. It has had side pipes, ansons, cragers, rear window louvers, chrome traction bars, shock extenders, and mallory ignition to name a few parts in the collection.

The problem was / is that I want to restore it back to GM specs but get stuck on the 427 parts.

I'll post some pics.

Rich http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Yellow 69 z28]

Second shot behind the ss427. No front bumber L88 hood.

[Yellow 69 z28]

Out front of house L88 hood. Ford mirrors.

[Yellow 69 z28]

Picking up from body shop after the kite incident. Need steel hood for clearance, Clarence.

[Yellow 69 z28]

Second shot at body shop, still has Ford mirrors.

[Yellow 69 z28]

Third shot at body shop new bumber, steel hood and Ford mirrors.

[Yellow 69 z28]

Shot interior with funky diamond pleaded dash and door panels. Hurst T handle guages barely visible under dash.

[Pantera]

Joel did like to use the ford mirrors probably because they were pretty modern looking for 1969. He also used the "GT" letters from ford mustangs on the back of the GT vettes he sold and mine has ford mirrors on it too.

You should look for build sheets under the seats and or dash. Try to locate a detective that could run a NCIC trace to see who the originating dealer was that sold it and any previous owners names.

Lastly beg and plead with the girl to just one time give you what she knows.

You should post the trim plate info on here and the vin as someone just may help you.

I know what you are going through as I am doing the same thing on a '69 vette myself. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[427TJ]

If you really wanna' know, you gotta' pay the dough.

If it's a real Motion car verified by Joel Rosen, the $1500 fee will be pocket change in comparison to what the car would be worth.

Just my .02

[skierkaj]

And if it's not a real Motion car, you just wasted your $1500 that could have been used to better your car. Sometimes you just have to look at, "what you have", not "what it could be". Either way, it's a nice car in my book, and would be glad to have it anyday. Do as much scrounging as you can, then when you're almost positive it's a Motion car, pay for the certification. Good luck

[Yellow 69 z28]

I have did all i can short of someone saying "I know this car". I've check with NICB and it was delivered to Reedman Chevrolet, Langhorne, PA but they have no record of the car, they say that they depoted a lot of cars as distributing dealer. Can only trace back to 1978 with NJ DMV and its me and the local girl included in those records.

She did tell me that she bought or something (sweet talked?) the car from her boyfriend, the original owner, who drag raced NHRA Div 1 or wrenched for someone who did. and that the other camaro in the first two pictures was his.

Build sheet is not around and I am not sure I want to find out now after all I have been through.

And Tom I do have a 427C or something edelbrock manifold, fish eye air cleaner, scatter shield, and will check the models of the mallory stuff. Don't recall any decals or valve covers but I will check.

Bill and John its inevitable!

Rich

[427TJ]

Yes, it is a nice car, but his original question was in reference to "what the car could be." If he wants to know "what the car could be" he has to "waste" 1500 bucks to find out for sure.

Yes, it'd be nice if Joel Rosen would cheerfully answer the thousands of verification queries he no doubt gets about his cars without the 1500 dollar fee. On the same note, these same car owners wouldn't bug him if his cars weren't worth so much. If you really want to know if you're driving a pot of gold then you have to cough up the fee.

[skierkaj]

It seems that he wasn't concerned about what it "could be" in his original post . . . he said that he wanted to restore it to original specs, but got stuck on the 427 stuff. Sorry if I said "wasted $1500", but if it isn't a true Motion car, would you not agree he just "wasted" money by spending the $1500? It's like buying a wing-nut for $500; it's throwing your money away. It doesn't matter anyway, because it sure sounds like a Motion car , or at least has most, if not all, the Motion goodies on it. That's the end of that.

I'd just like to say that some people aren't rich, and not everybody can afford to buy a Motion modified car, or any supercar, at the drop of a hat. If he aquired the car, good for him. Plain and simple. If you can't afford it, buy what you can, and make it what you want.

[427TJ]

Okay, maybe I just misunderstood the title "Short of Paying Joel for confirmation...."

I think we differ only in semantics.

Oh, and no need for apologies, I would like to think that we're all mature adults here, even if we sometimes talk around one another.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

My main point: If you were 'mostly sure' or 'pretty sure' as to whether your car was worth not $20,000, but $150,000-up (way up) and the difference lay in whether or not to pay a fee to confirm it once and for all...? This is where I'm coming from.

(If Mr. Rosen reads this forum I'll bet he laughs and laughs. Oh, and he waits for his phone to ring and the subsequent cash to come his way.)

Anyway, this is where the wealthy collector steps in. To the wealthy collector, $1500 to confirm a car's provenance (origin; derivation; source) (also stated: $$$) is a small price to pay in order to confirm the car's true worth. One man's "worthless" rust bucket in a barn is often the wealthy collector's "awesome score," if you will.

(No offense to wealthy collectors. Yes, men of lesser means wish they were wealthy collectors.)

Lastly, no, it's not like "buying a wing-nut for $500" UNLESS there are $50,000 wing-nuts out there. Waste is usually visible only in hindsight and hindsight is usually 20/20.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[skierkaj]

Alright, I think we're on the same page now. Yes indeed, if it was almost certain that this car was a Motion modified street machine, It would be worth the documentation. Like you said, $20,000 to $150,000 is quite a significant price jump, and in this case, I believe the $1500 would be well worth it.

I know what you mean about the waste in hindsight, I think I spent too much on my "Motion" valve covers for my camaro. I knew they weren't real, but I thought it was worth it. I come to find out that the covers themselves are probably only worth $70, which means I paid too much for that little emblem that's on them; and it's not even correct! That's enough said, as I think I don't wanna disclose how much I paid for em! Here's a pic of the covers . . .

[Jeff H]

What is the trim tag information on the car? Does anyone know if Joel ordered SS396 or SS350 cars and did the 427 swap or would he order a base 6 cyl car to do the 427 swap? He already said he did not know about the COPO program so that can be ruled out.

[427TJ]

I have a soft-spot for Cal Custom big-block Chevy valve covers. I made an impulse buy on eBay for a pair that had minor repairs and I paid $30. Then the seller nailed me for an additional $20 for shipping (D'OH!) and I felt really dumb. I just bought another near-mint set for $75 with the PCV/breather holes not punched out. Yep, an additional $25 shipping hit made them $100. (Double D'OH!) I kept watching them on eBay and several more sets went into the 100-dollar range so I felt better.

Yes, I know, I could buy them all day long for less than $25 at any swap meet so save your breath guys. I love repeating my mistakes on eBay. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[427TJ]

I assume that Motion would happily convert any car brought to them. I was part of the COPO/Motion thread and someone said that the COPO-appearing '69 Camaro SS 427 in that thread could have been a 6-cylinder before conversion. It seems silly to order a 6-cylinder '69 Camaro and then have to add not just the 427 but a tranny and 12-bolt, etc., but it could have happened.

I think the most common route was to order an L78 Super Sport car through Baldwin Chevrolet (with whatever options you chose) and then Baldwin would deliver it to Motion for the conversion. You then took delivery of the converted car at Baldwin.

[4MyChevelles]

Now from what i heard from a friend about the 1500.00 fee to Joel is that after 6 months and more like 6 thousand dollars he finaly got his Motion Vette certified and I don't want to give to many details about the car and get anyone in trouble but it's just what i heard

[AutoInsane]

Well I think there should be further investigation into the facts that would lead one to think this is indeed a Motion car. What other indicators would point to this being a Motion car besides a 427 and a fiberglass L-88 hood and this listed in the original post?:

"It has had side pipes, ansons, cragers, rear window louvers, chrome traction bars, shock extenders, and mallory ignition to name a few parts"

I do indeed hope this is a Motion car but it seems like you need more concrete proof that what you have now. It would seem all of the modifications to the car could have been done by anyone along the way. You might send Kevin (Supercars) and e-mail. He is a very nice person and had an very good comprehension of what a Motion car should have.

Gd luck,

Bill O'Brien

[Yellow 69 z28]

"The problem was / is that I want to restore it back to GM specs but get stuck on the 427 parts."

Its all good. The car has always been known as a super car in my neck of the woods. The late boyfriend of the girl who owned the car before me wrenched for a NHRA Div. 1 B/M Camaro in the "Grumpy" days. So with out him and paper work its what we call in my profession a "cold case".

I have researched all that I can short of Paying Joel for confirmation.

Expert Testimony.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[AutoInsane]

What are the main indicators pointing to this car being a Motion car? Is the ex- b/f deceased? or does 'late' just mean ex?

[hvychev]

Just a thought but if the owner was a NHRA Division 1 wrench why would he spend the big cake to buy a Motion prepared car? What I mean is if he was an experienced wrench at that time why would he spend the big money for Motion to do to a car what he could have done himself for less than half of the money?

[427TJ]

Another possible angle comes from the stories about the "stolen" musclecars cars that were converted to drag-only cars by their owners. Someone else on this forum speculated that owners used to report their cars "stolen," collect the insurance money, and then spend it on converting the car to a track-only car. Probably a widespread scam throughout the years. It's possible that there are a few Motion cars out there that have spent the last 30+ years on the strip with no clue as to their origin.

How's that for compelling speculation?

[MadMike]

This setup was the hot ticket in the 80's, and the mid to late 70's too. All the stuff mentioned was available for purchase by anyone.

You need to know the history of the car back to 1969, not starting in the late 70's. Someone could have gotten a mr.gasket catalog and spent a couple bux in 1972 and hotrodded the car like everyone else.

If you want to low buck this thing, decifer your engine code. If the engine is a 1969 vintage L88 or L72 427 then you can get excited. If the engine is a 1975 454 from a dump truck, then save your money.

I believe joel, being Mr. Economical would start with the most up front. I.e. an L78 or L34 396 car, something that already had a 12 bolt and heavy duty drivetrain in it. Then he'd take the expensive L78 (thank you and resell it) for the 427 you're getting. If the car started life as a 6 banger he'd be throwing out the 6 cylinder and having to obtain a rear end and transmission, plus the motor mounts, changing the heater core.....

[Pantera]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe joel, being Mr. Economical would start with the most up front. I.e. an L78 or L34 396 car, something that already had a 12 bolt and heavy duty drivetrain in it. Then he'd take the expensive L78 (thank you and resell it) for the 427 you're getting.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would say Mr smart as a FOX, because he could sell the takeout used motor to just about anybody in town for nearly as much as his cost on the "new" crate motor he was putting back in. No way would he start with a 6 cyl car. To much to have to change. Time is money. With a DEALER on his side he had a good thing going. he would just order or transfer to get the closest configeration he could use.

I was suprised that he used a 390 hp vette to make a Phase III GT like he did on my '70 BM car. I would have thought he would have ordered a hi per motor in the car but he may have had to rush it and took what he could get. '70 vettes were selling pretty well back then.

[ralfsyenko]

what is joels current e-mail. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif