Question about a 69 Camaro on ebay

[Derek]

I've been spending a lot of time the last few months learning about the 1st gen camaros and I have gained a lot of useful information from many places (including this great site). I finally registered on this forum so I could ask a question about a 69 Camaro on ebay.

First, here's the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2468145810&category=61 61

Hope I did that right...

Anyway, my question is: Since the VIN number begins with 12337 instead of 12437, doesn't this indicate that this car was originally a 6 cylinder car which means it could NOT have been an "original SS-350" which the seller states? I realize the trim tag has 12437 on it, but it is my understanding that Fisher does not distinguish engines on their tags, and therefore they tag every car as though it were an 8 cylinder. Is this correct? He represents the car as an (x11 code) which agrees with the trim tag, but that doesn't mean this car is an original SS350 does it? My research indicates that even some base 6 cyl camaros were x11's. I realize that the original engine is gone anyway, but it seems to me that the car will go for more than it should since it's being represented as an original SS350. The fact that it is non matching #'s does not matter to me, since I intend on swapping the motor for a blown big block anyway, but I don't want to have to overpay for something that is being misrepresented.

As far as the restoration goes, the car seems as though the restoration has been fairly comprehensive to my untrained eye. This will be my first hobby car (I'm only 28), and I just want to make sure I've covered all the bases and asked all the right questions before I commit to such a major purchase. I wish I could inspect it in person, but it is in Florida and I am in Texas. Can any of you seasoned veterans offer any opinions on this vehicle, or offer any other advice you would consider helpful for a newcomer to this hobby?

Sorry for the long post, and again I would like to thank all active members of this forum for the wealth of information you bestow upon us newbies! I look forward to learning more about these great cars and making a lot of new friends!

[JChlupsa]

http://www.goes.com/~enki/69CamaroSS/Enlarged/S2010016.JPG

YES 12337 is a 6 cylinder car. Nice looking car just the same but he should at least state what it really is a CLONE

[DjD]

You've done your homework... It's not an SS anything, the VIN says it started life as a 6cyl... Note it even says Pontiac Camaro at the start of the description... Since it's being offered by a broker he'll tell you he's justing listing it as the owner stated it is if you question the car...

Now the pic's do show a fairly nice car, mind you only the roof was not replaced so someone is trying to recoupe money poured into the car... I think high dollar labor was used by the ads wording...

[396L35]

Welcome Derek, first thing you need to do is fill out your profile before Jeff, Charley, or Belair get you.. Second the car is a fake.... Wrong color, Wrong intake, Wrong rear cover, Wrong shifter... Etc... If your going to spend $20,000 on a 1969 Camaro, dont buy it off ebay... Too many scams out there and I wouldnt want to see you get burned your first time out. Since numbers dont mean anything to you, I would suggest that you look for a 6 banger car since your planning on putting a big block in there it will be cheaper to get a hold of one. You should be able to find some good solid cars down in Texas where you are from. But dont worry you have landed in the right place to ask questions on these cars.. These guy eat, sleep, sh-t cars.... Good luck http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[jg95z28]

Here's the run-down on the VIN & Trim tag:

1 = Chevrolet
2 = Camaro
3 = 6-cylinder engine
37 = coupe body
9 = 1969 model year
N = Norwood, OH assembly plant
678050 = vehicle serial number sequence

Decode for body number: 110548

08E = Built the Fifth week of August.
69-12437 = Coupe.
NOR = Built in Norwood Ohio.
711 = Standard Black Bucket Seats.
59-59 = Car Color is Frost Green
X11 = non-SS396, non-Z28, with style trim

Nothing more than a plain Jane six-banger. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[69LM1]

"Nothing more than a plain Jane six-banger"

I don't know if I would call it plain jane. Pretty nice looking.

[jg95z28]

[ QUOTE ]
"Nothing more than a plain Jane six-banger"

I don't know if I would call it plain jane. Pretty nice looking.

[/ QUOTE ]Of course I was being facetious. This is our "plain Jane" we're currently working on.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Kurt S]

Congrats, for asking *before* you buy and for doing your homework on it.
Wrote this just for you. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#VINvsStyle

[Racefan]

Here is the latest on the Camaro in question. I have made it my personal crusade to call these people on thier BS. When I emailed the guy to let him know that I was sure it was an honest mistake, and he should clarify the true identity of the car.....here is the email I got back. Is what he admitted to not highly illegal?

"It it an original SS 350, but long ago it had been converted into a drag racer and re-bodied. During the re-body, the original VIN tag was lost. The next owner wanted to use it on the street and had a new VIN tag placed on it (from a 6 cylinder car), and that is the VIN that it is
currently titled and registered under here in Florida.
The current owner took out all the drag racing components and completely restored it to original specs (with some mild performance upgrades and a better color was originally green), but it still has the VIN from some 6 cylinder car.
If you look at the firewall tag (click on one of the thumbnails), however, you will see that it is an X11 (SS350) code car.

Thanks"

[Bill Pritchard]

Derek,

Welcome to the site. You're doing the right thing by asking questions before you buy.

"It it an original SS 350, but long ago it had been converted into a drag racer and re-bodied. During the re-body, the original VIN tag was lost. The next owner wanted to use it on the street and had a new VIN tag placed on it (from a 6 cylinder car), and that is the VIN that it is currently titled and registered under here in Florida.
The current owner took out all the drag racing components and completely restored it to original specs (with some mild performance upgrades and a better color was originally green), but it still has the VIN from some 6 cylinder car.
If you look at the firewall tag (click on one of the thumbnails), however, you will see that it is an X11 (SS350) code car."

So they are attempting to legitimize putting an alleged SS Trim Tag on a 6 cyl body and calling it a true SS350 car?? I wouldn't touch this car with a ten foot pole http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[DarrenX33]

[ QUOTE ]
"It it an original SS 350, but long ago it had been converted into a drag racer and re-bodied. During the re-body, the original VIN tag was lost. The next owner wanted to use it on the street and had a new VIN tag placed on it (from a 6 cylinder car), and that is the VIN that it is
currently titled and registered under here in Florida.
The current owner took out all the drag racing components and completely restored it to original specs (with some mild performance upgrades and a better color was originally green), but it still has the VIN from some 6 cylinder car.
If you look at the firewall tag (click on one of the thumbnails), however, you will see that it is an X11 (SS350) code car.

Thanks"

[/ QUOTE ]

This is comforting.

[Racefan]

Actually, I think they are trying to say that the trim tag is the correct tag and that the VIN plate is from another car. I guess the true test is to pull the heater and see what the one they didn't know about says? I think the people bidding should be made aware. Always the crusader, I am. But, IT JUST ISN'T RIGHT! People save up a lot of money over a long time to own the "car of thier dreams" and then get taken while people who know better (like us) sit and talk about how silly it is. What can we do to take care of things like this? Report it to eBay as a non-legit car with another cars VIN on it? I would like to email the guy and tell him that I have the title to the old 6 cylinder car with his VIN, and I want my STOLEN car back. That would rattle his cage, wouldn't it?

[Derek]

Mark, thanks for the tip on my profile. I went ahead and filled out my profile and became a paid member. You're right, I don't want Jeff, Charley, or Belair to make me go stand in the corner when I just walked into the room!

Thank you all for helping me out on this one. I have received no response to the email I sent the seller since the tone of my message gave a little less benefit of the doubt about the guy's innocence. I will definitely let this car go by. I must say I am disappointed because I've been looking around for quite a while and I was really impressed with this one, but this seller is obviously unethical and can not be trusted. Even though numbers matching isn't important to me, there's no telling what other aspects of the car are being intentionally misrepresented. I believe that it is the original VIN, and that's just his BS story to explain it away.
Should we let ebay in on his little "oh, yeah... that's not the original VIN #" statement? I would feel bad just sitting by and watching some other unsuspecting bidder get bit by this snake.

So, where's a good place for me to continue looking for my 69? I've been looking in the usual places, Old Car Trader, newspaper, Hemmings, etc... Got any other suggestions?

[MrsBillyBobcat]

[ QUOTE ]

So, where's a good place for me to continue looking for my 69? I've been looking in the usual places, Old Car Trader, newspaper, Hemmings, etc... Got any other suggestions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome Derek! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif You may want to attend some car shows and cruise nights. I found my '69 Camaro for sale while walking around at a cruise night and I wasn't even looking! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif (this was me when spotted it, LOL) It was the first time it was "out" and it was not yet advertised anywhere. It was in my garage the very next day! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Rita http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Belair62]

Thanks Derek...try posting a Wanted ad here and see what comes up....lots of people here to help you...

[Pantera]

Forget E-bay, I would suggest that you or someone in Fla call the local police and report this car. This just might be someones stolen Camaro that has been repainted and the vin changed and they are trying to sell it on E-bay.

I have been the inocent buyer of a car like that (a '65 vette) and Bill Mock in Bartlesville bought it from me and checked the frame # and it turned out to be a stolen car and the Police came and took the car. Period ...! They gave it back to the rightfull owner.

I had to give Bill his money back and then try to recover my money from the person that I bought it from. I got lucky he gave it all back to me (dumb [censored] though that would keep him out of jail) but I lost the proffit I had made on the sale of the car.

No mater what if the feds find that it has had a vin replaced someone is guilty of a federal crime. It is also a $10,000 fine for having it in your possession.

[DjD]

Swapping a vin tag is not legal. Either way ethic's are laking, they broke the law and swapped the tag or have concocted a story to to pass off a fake!!

There are ads here as well as on Team Camaro, www.camaros.net/classifieds (http://www.camaros.net/classifieds) and of course ebay and also www.traderonline.com (http://www.traderonline.com) has a large classic car area... Like Rita I found my '69 in my own neighborhood. I had driven and flown all over and ended up buying a car less than 3 miles from home... Patience, research and restraint will land you that dream car.

[396L35]

Derek I'll keep my eyes open around here for one, but I have to tell you that the cars from Missouri are rough.... unlike Texas where you dont have hard Winters. What exactly are you looking for?? A running car, shell, complete no motor or trans????? I bet there are a few guys on this board that are willing to help you look for a car... Hell thats what this board is all about "Helping out others to keep the Muscle Cars alive"...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[69LM1]

Derek,
Try http://www.collectorcartraderonline.com/ as well.
Rich

[jg95z28]

[ QUOTE ]
X11 = non-SS396, non-Z28, with style trim

[/ QUOTE ]
Where does it say it was an SS? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[olredalert]

Derek,

-------Whats your spending limit? I heard about a 69 375/396 69 today. Supposed to be ultra-original. Priced around 40ish. I know very few details other than color and very broad statement about quality,but can put you in touch with the principals involved..........Bill S

[69LM1]

"This is a FIRST-RATE, comprehensive, ALL-METAL FRAME-OFF restoration of an ORIGINAL SS 350 (x11 code) '69 Camaro"

From the first line in the ebay ad (Bold added by me).

[Racefan]

Please refer back to my post of his email where he not only still attests to the fact that it IS an SS-350 but that the VIN tag was switched with a 6cyl. What a quality individual!
I went out on a limb and did something I probably will get into trouble for, but I emailed every recent bidder and sent them a link to this thread so they could make an informed decision. I want to turn this guy in soooooo bad!

[Kurt S]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that it is the original VIN, and that's just his BS story to explain it away.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is correct. That tag matches that VIN, VERY low (read none) likelihood it was swapped.
Yes Virginia, there is such a thing as an L6 X11 car, and it ain't an SS.

[Derek]

[ QUOTE ]
Derek,

-------Whats your spending limit? I heard about a 69 375/396 69 today. Supposed to be ultra-original. Priced around 40ish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bill, I appreciate your willingness to help me but $40K is a bit steep for me. Especially since I'm intending to spend a chunk of money building a BB to put it the car. There's no reason for me to buy a car with an original engine, rare engine, or one with an engine that is already built up for horsepower. I would love to start with a shell and restore a car from the ground up, but I know I just do not have the time for that. I have learned this lesson from my dad and the on again off again 20 year long relationship he has had with an old '59 Chevy Truck. I keep thinking one of these days he's gonna finish her! There's just too many other things going on in my life to tackle such a time consuming project. Therefore I'm looking for a car that has been very recently completely restored but with nothing special for an engine. (That way the fun part is left to me!) That's a tall order, because I've found that the highest quality restorations for some reason chose not to start with a 6 cylinder car... go figure!

Thank you all for the suggestions. I will place a wanted ad on this site that's a bit more specific as to what I'm looking for and also visit the other websites y'all recommended. Maybe there'll be some good car shows and drive-ins in my area soon (DFW area) and I'll look there as well. I'll just have to be patient till the right one comes along!

p.s. About this crook selling the camaro on ebay, I definitely believe ebay needs to be notified. I think they might take it more seriously if they heard from Phil (Racefan) since he's the one who received that incredible email admitting to swapping VIN's.

[jg95z28]

I know that. But my point was an X11 car is not an SS... which is what the seller is suggesting. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[DarrenX33]

X11 does include SS350 and can be identified based on how the car is equipped and if the #'s match. But in the sellers case he has just created Camaro chop-suey.

[jg95z28]

My mistake then. I thought it just stood for the style trim group. Perhaps I should just stick with 67's. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Derek]

The idiot seller (broker) has just willingly added to the description at the bottom of the auction the BS story about the VIN swapping. I think he's just shot himself in the foot. I'm notifying ebay and we'll see if they do anything about it. At least all of our emails about this issue has caused him to acknowledge that there's major trouble concerning the numbers on this car and bidders will be aware (provided they notice that tiny bit of text at the bottom of the page).

[Belair62]

If this is made out of a 6cyl...which it probably is...it would fit your bill perfectly...especially if you are not worried about numbers..too bad it didn't work out..

[njsteve]

"It it an original SS 350, but long ago it had been converted into a drag racer and re-bodied. During the re-body, the original VIN tag was lost. The next owner wanted to use it on the street and had a new VIN tag placed on it (from a 6 cylinder car), and that is the VIN that it is
currently titled and registered under here in Florida.
The current owner took out all the drag racing components and completely restored it to original specs (with some mild performance upgrades and a better color was originally green), but it still has the VIN from some 6 cylinder car.
If you look at the firewall tag (click on one of the thumbnails), however, you will see that it is an X11 (SS350) code car."

If you could have him notarize the above statement I would be happy to forward it on to someone who would be equally happy to lock him up. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Racefan]

I have forwarded the copy from my email from the guy along with a link to the auction on eBay to the Auto theft division of the Tallahassee Police Department. I noticed from the auction that Tallahassee was the region listed, atleast maybe they can find out whose jurisdiction the car is in. Don't know if we'll ever hear anything further. But, my quest is done. I can do no more. I just hope eBay doesn't pull the auction before the police can view it! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Supergas990]

Wow, Bid up to $24,000 and change. I'm no expert but that seems a bit stiff for a SS-350 car, especially with the final non-garauntee of what the car may or may not be. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Blair

[Racefan]

"I have been the inocent buyer of a car like that (a '65 vette) and Bill Mock in Bartlesville bought it from me and checked the frame # and it turned out to be a stolen car and the Police came and took the car. Period ...! They gave it back to the rightfull owner."

Especially after the earlier post I have pasted above. For that kind of money, I can find something documented that won't send me to jail or get confiscated! There really is one born every minute isn't there?

[Racefan]

Kind of makes me feel as though the emails and things I have tried to do to notify these people is for nothing?! Like cattle to the slaughterhouse.....just filing in! Nothing more that I can do but sit back and see how much people are willing to pay for this car. Kind of interesting, really. Not sure if people want the truth... if it looks good, who cares? Is that the philosophy?

[Derek]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is made out of a 6cyl...which it probably is...it would fit your bill perfectly...especially if you are not worried about numbers..too bad it didn't work out..

[/ QUOTE ]

BelAir, my thoughts exactly. This would have been the EXACT car I'm looking for had it not been for all the shenanigans (spelling?) about the VIN and trim tag. I do believe that both the VIN and trim tag are original to the car, I'm just unwillingly to do an internet deal with someone who is an unethical lying crook! If anybody finds another 69 a lot like this one for sale let me know! I hope this joker gets in trouble.

[RichSchmidt]

Now what would really be funny would be if this car was stolen,and the cops went knocking on the door of the rightful owner and told them they have their stolen Camaro and the owner would be expecting a gren clapped out 6 banger and would be getting that car.That guy could steal my car for a few years if he promises to return it looking like that:)

[lowmile]

I saw this car in person a few weeks ago in Tallahassee and talked with the owner. If he was a great criminal mastermind, I don't think he would have published what he'd done wrong, (change vin) on the internet, or he may be thought the vin story would cover up a changed trim tag. If anyone has any questions on the quality of this car I would be happy to give you my opinion off line. I've done some dumb things out of ignorance before, as I'm sure most of you have. If you want to help the situation ask for the owners phone number and call him with your concerns and see if he'll do the right thing. Calling the local police department on someone who hasn't cost you a dime, easy Barney put your one bullet back in you pocket before some one gets hurt. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif mark

[Racefan]

I don't think the current broker has done anything wrong...you're right he woul dhave never openly stated the VIN swapping and such. However, IF there was something done that a previous owner is covering up....it does need to be checked before any more people could potentially be hurt. As it sounds right now, the car is two owners removed from the VIN swapping claimed. If any one of us had had our car stolen, we would expect all questionable cars be checked out. If there is no problem, then there are no problems. If there have been some creative marketing done with the VINs, that is against laws in multiple jurisdictions and should be reported. I have contacted the seller and urged him to "do the right thing", he as a reputable broker (by his own admission) should know that swapping VINs is illegal and should report it himself. He obviously isn't going to...
what now?

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling the local police department on someone who hasn't cost you a dime, easy Barney put your one bullet back in you pocket before some one gets hurt. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif mark

[/ QUOTE ]

Also sitting back and not wanting to "get involved" and let this car go on its merry way, is not doing the right thing either. The Federal laws that pertain to VIN swapping do not differentiate between whether it has been done out of ignorance or done with criminal intent: it is still illegal. If bringing this fact to the seller's attention causes him to 1) take it off the market 2) change the numbers back to what they were originally, or 3) allows the police to reunite a stolen car with its victimized owner, then we as concerned members of the hobby have done our civic duty http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif.