Tonawanda small block?

[NCGuy68]

Ran across a 67 Camaro survivor. It has a L30 (327-275)and Powerglide trans. Quite a original car, but the stamped engine code is one I've never seen on a small block.

Engine Code: T1113MM.

The MM is indeed a 67 with L30 and Powerglide. I question the 'T' because it would indicate that it is a Tonawanda built motor. I have always thought Tonawanda built the big blocks and Flint built the small blocks. In addition, there is no stamped VIN sequence number on the pad.

Can anyone shed light on this subject?

[Kurt S]

Tonawanda built both small and big blocks.

[Salvatore]

The 67 and 68 302's were assembled in Flint.

[olredalert]

-------I have a very nice 69 Chevelle Concours wagon that the 350 motor has never been out of or apart. Not only is it a Tonawanda small-block but it has the original Tonawanda valve-cover sticker!............Bill S

[Mr70]

Tonawanda was assembling SB & BB engines,but they weren't the only plant.
The Romulus Mi. Plant was doing this as well,although on a much smaller scale,but doing it too none the less.

[NCGuy68]

[ QUOTE ]
Tonawanda was assembling SB & BB engines,but they weren't the only plant.
The Romulus Mi. Plant was doing this as well,although on a much smaller scale,but doing it too none the less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rick.....very interesting. Never thought Romulus was building 1967 motors.

Please elaborate

[NCGuy68]

Gents,

Seems that Tonawanda built small blocks are few and far between. Not many documented examples exist. Originals might have a 'Team One' sticker on the valve cover which is similar to the Flint built motors.

If you own a original survivor, or know of one, please chime in.

[68l30]

Got one,T0702EE.....Most components dated F 24-26..In an 07E Camaro..I've also got 041 heads.Some of the earliest known to me, a June date on a better known 69 casting.They also have no mounting holes for accessories....


Steve

[Verne_Frantz]

Craig,
I can't speak for post-'65, but until then Tonawanda built millions of small blocks per year. That includes hi-perf 327s. Of all the passenger cars I've documented, 95% of the small blocks were Tonawanda. 5% Flint.
Verne

[olredalert]

--------The aforementioned 69 Concours wagon is sitting in the driveway. 350/two-barrell single exhaust,F41,Posi,tilt,AC,M40. 38000 orig. miles,motor never out or apart. Oh, it had a waterpump and a rebuilt carb at sometime or other. What do you want to know?
--------Am trying to decide weather to keep it or not, as I am in the middle of a body-off on a 65 Chevelle wagon. I like wagons but am not sure I need two.............Bill S

[NCGuy68]

Gents,

Thanks for the replys.

I would keep a Tonawanda small block in any 67-69 Camaro/Chevelle if it is a original survivor. Many have been 'hacked-up' or converted to big blocks. Original, unmolested examples might be desirable in the future.

Bill S. Keep the wagon as original. There is a known 69 COPO Kingswood Estate wagon that could fetch high $$ if the owner ever wants to sell it.

[westonz28rs]

Another T1206ML in a 1967 Camaro RS. Strange engine date as the car was built in 03D (March 4 week) Second owner, brother-in-law bought it new off the lot. Have P.O.P and order form to go with car. Would be hard to prove engine was original if not for the POP. This is a L30/M20 Camaro, repainted once and new seats and carpet. Engine still runs great.

[olredalert]

------Thanks Craig! I definetly wont be modifying this wagon as it is so original it hurts! The question is wether to sell it or not. Im sure no one here thinks of it as rare or desirable, but try to find a good, low mileage, original wagon. There are plenty of decent long-roofs around to be modified into ersatz SSs, but only a handful of un-Fd-up low mileage, near perfect wagons. With that said, I like playing with things and all I can do with this car is keep it as nice as it already is. The 65 Im building kind of satisfys my need to mess with stuff (in a good way, I hope).
------Kind of sound like I answered my own question, huh? Maybe I should get the camera out and get this ol Chevelle up on the for-sale board............Bill S

[ds1]

Interested in this thread. No one answered why there is no VIN or where else it would be?

[SuperNovaSS]

Partial VINs were not required until 1968. Before that, the generally only came on "high performance" engines.


Jason

[ds1]

Thank you Jason. We picked up an Early 67 Tonowanda block car. The stamp looked right on but had no vin. Researching on the way home I found this thread and a picture of a 67 block stamped just like his. September built car with a T09I3MM stamping and no vin. Thanks Dan

[Hotrodpaul]

Here is mine from my old 70 SS 350 Camaro. Many of the base SS 350 300 Hp engines were built at Tonawanda.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics/usergals/2016/07/full-2198-45905-dscn6487.jpg

[novadude]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">--------The aforementioned 69 Concours wagon is sitting in the driveway. 350/two-barrell single exhaust,F41,Posi,tilt,AC,M40. 38000 orig. miles,motor never out or apart. Oh, it had a waterpump and a rebuilt carb at sometime or other. What do you want to know?
--------Am trying to decide weather to keep it or not, as I am in the middle of a body-off on a 65 Chevelle wagon. I like wagons but am not sure I need two.............Bill S </div></div>

The block I used for my '65 Nova build was a '69 250hp 350 built in Tonawanda. There is something weird about those Tonawanda small blocks in that era. The oil galley plug in the rear of the left deck, and also the galley plug above the oil filter were press-in plugs and not pipe plugs. We had to remove them to clean the block properly, so we drilled oversize and tapped for the next largest size pipe thread. Every Flint block I've seen from that era had screw in pipe plugs.

[olredalert]

----Bringing up this thread from 2004 brought back some good memories, and a small bit of sadness. I sold that Concours wagon to a local guy. Actually, a real nice guy known to some of our members here. He proceeded to yank the drivetrain and install a full tilt 502 and pro-toured the car. I actually think the car is pretty cool, however I really liked as it was. I don't know what he did with the Tonawanda 350......Bill S

[red67]

Here is a picture of the engine stamp from my 1967 NOR 11B Convertible built on Nov 11. Completely original 327/275 PG owned since 1978. No partial VIN on 1967 Camaro 327/275. Tonawanda built engine decals were exactly the same as the silver big blocks but installed on the lower outside middle of the drivers side valve cover. Interesting item on this engine is that both heads are dated Nov 1, one day before the engine was assembled.

[bigsixman]

I have a friend that purchased a 1969 El Camino that he ordered new with a 350/255 hp motor with a Hd 3 speed transmission and it was built in the Tonawanda engine plant. I do remember a Tonawanda valve cover sticker on the end of the passenger valve cover.

[ted]

Here we go. 3956618 L27 8 block suffix coding TO 111 HD Vin 19130xxxx with 2bbl 7029114 on intake 3916313 dated A9 9 - 3932441 heads dated A7 9 - 3927170 water pump dated A30 9 - distributors 111481 or 955 have dates not condusive to build date or me listing has an error(s). Gonna have to take a wee peek..

Hope this helps on the Tonawanda thread.

Ted

[bergy]

The Tonawanda foundry cast big blocks on mold line 1 and small blocks on mold line 2. Line 1 produced about 30% fewer blocks than line 2. So that was the mix. All went next door to the Tonawanda motor plant. However, Tonawanda blocks (unmachined small blocks) were sent to Flint V8 for machining/assembly when Saginaw gray iron ran short of capacity - this was rare.

[red67]

Here are some further photos of my Tonawnada block. Looks like it went down conveyor 1.

[bergy]

The &quot;conv&quot; designations were permanently part of the patterns when they were made. They reflected the planned casting conveyor when the pattern was made (could have been years earlier). They were not &quot;tags&quot; like the date codes &amp; didn't represent which line the mold was actually made on. Remember the rule of thumb - iron patterns (which these were) typically lasted 100,000 molds before refurbishing. Aluminum patterns lasted 10,000 molds. Your block was cast off of pattern #11 in that family of patterns - which could have been in production for a long time.

the casting lines were

Line 1 - M4 Blocks

Line 2 - small blocks

Line 3 - M4 heads and all intakes

Line 4 - small block heads

Line 5 - water pumps, oil pumps, bearing caps, &amp; misc. lower volume parts

Line 6 - same as line 5

Line 7 - was removed in early '60s

Line 8 - all brake drums

[red67]

Thanks for the good info. I always wondered what these numbers meant but nobody to date has been able to give me the specifics. The intake and heads are also Tonawanda.

[novadude]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The &quot;conv&quot; designations were permanently part of the patterns when they were made. They reflected the planned casting conveyor when the pattern was made (could have been years earlier). They were not &quot;tags&quot; like the date codes &amp; didn't represent which line the mold was actually made on. Remember the rule of thumb - iron patterns (which these were) typically lasted 100,000 molds before refurbishing. Aluminum patterns lasted 10,000 molds. Your block was cast off of pattern #11 in that family of patterns - which could have been in production for a long time.

the casting lines were

Line 1 - M4 Blocks

Line 2 - small blocks

Line 3 - M4 heads and all intakes

Line 4 - small block heads

Line 5 - water pumps, oil pumps, bearing caps, &amp; misc. lower volume parts

Line 6 - same as line 5

Line 7 - was removed in early '60s

Line 8 - all brake drums </div></div>

Great info. Its always fascinating to learn how they actually built these things (to me, anyway).

[red67]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The &quot;conv&quot; designations were permanently part of the patterns when they were made. They reflected the planned casting conveyor when the pattern was made (could have been years earlier). They were not &quot;tags&quot; like the date codes &amp; didn't represent which line the mold was actually made on. Remember the rule of thumb - iron patterns (which these were) typically lasted 100,000 molds before refurbishing. Aluminum patterns lasted 10,000 molds. Your block was cast off of pattern #11 in that family of patterns - which could have been in production for a long time.

the casting lines were

Line 1 - M4 Blocks

Line 2 - small blocks

Line 3 - M4 heads and all intakes

Line 4 - small block heads

Line 5 - water pumps, oil pumps, bearing caps, &amp; misc. lower volume parts

Line 6 - same as line 5

Line 7 - was removed in early '60s

Line 8 - all brake drums </div></div>

Is this mold, T11, only used for casting 352 as the casting number is also not a tag? Mold T11 for casting 352. My understanding is that casting 352 was used for 327 and 350 in 1967 only so this block could have had a very limited production run. Alvin Colvin in his book states that he is not sure when this casting was used and thought it was a limited run used late in the model year but the September 1966 casting dates are wrong for that. I believe that Tonawanda stepped up small block production in the fall of 1966 because there was a shortage of the new 350 engine then. In the fall of 1966 you could not buy an over the counter 350 engine or parts. You could only get a 350 engine via warranty and a serial number had to be provided to the parts system. This is stated in GM docs from the era.

[bergy]

That pattern, T11, would only be used for the part number on the cope. &quot;T&quot; is for Tonawanda MCP and it's the 11th pattern in that series. It's possible to have other &quot;T11&quot; patters in another series of blocks. The part numbers were not changeable &quot;tags&quot; like the date inserts were.