High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??

[70 copo]

If the price is high enough on the originals the repops are inevitable. The end could soon be near for the 21K Cross Ram and the 100K 69Z as the market saturates.

A friend and I were just talking on this topic several weeks ago and I told him that someone was going to repop these...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2485811259&catego ry=10076

Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[camarojoe]

imo, repro parts have little to no effect on the prices and values of original NOS and used GM parts. Repro stuff will always be just that, repro. There will always be a market for original stuff. Think of all the parts that are now available in reproduction, yet prices for these same parts in NOSGM are at an all time high. Everything from sheetmetal to steering wheels, to weatherstrip, to radiator caps. Bottom line is there is no substitute for original GM stuff, and won't likely ever be. Judging by the prices some of this original stuff gets, alot of others feel the same way.

[70 copo]

Joe,

I respectfully disagree, and here is why. I have been carefully watching the recent two year spike in the prices of these cars. As I recall it all started two years ago at the BJ Auction when a guy brought two well restored 69 Z-28's to be sold. both brought world record prices. Both had FAKE not even reproduction X-rams but fakes without no MFG markings at all. (See attached photo taken at BJ)

To a fanatic-you are correct. originality matters-alot. But unfortunately there are plenty of people that just want one.

Here is a another perfect example of how this plays out.

527 and 826 exaust manfolds. A little shop in indiana was knocking them off in small batches a full three years prior to D+R getting the agreement from GM to do the real Reproductions. As you may recall (I do) Prices on these manifolds were in excess of $1500.00 a pair prior to the official reproductions. Now they are $300.00 a pop and everybody has them. I recently passed on an original set of new take offs for $450.00 due to slight pitting, as the judges will now take points as they are used to the quality of the repops.

I guess the big issue with the X-rams is each major author who has written on them has stated that they do not run well on the street. When the market is flooded in several years we will again see them at swap meets for sale as people pull them back off the cars, and the cycle then repeats.

Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Charley Lillard]

I just sold a set of exhaust manifolds on Ebay for 1,275.00 so I don't think the repo that has to be machined to fit has done much to the value of the orig ones yet. As for the crossrams. I think all the repo crossrams that are being done will have a effect on the value of a crossram car but I don't think you will be seeing orig crossrams being taken off and sold at swap meets. You might see the repo setups showing up at the swap meets though.

[70 copo]

Charlie,

I think the value of documented X-ram cars will remain good. An X-ram car with owner history and documents to the install date (with a dealer receipt) will be blue chip.

Phil

[camarojoe]

You're right on the money Charley... Repro stuff is always different than original, and good original parts will always command the real money... will there be a select guy here or there that unknowingly pays "real car" prices for put-together stuff and repro parts? Sure, but that doesnt mean when something comes out as a reproduction that the originals have suddenly lost their value... if anything, the "real-deal" stuff becomes even more sought after, when people grow tired of looking at the incorrect repro stuff... good observation on the exhaust manifolds too... i have a repro set on my Deuce that leak like a seive, and make contact on the engine block everywhere BUT the flange...I think Marlin is dealing with the same PITA as we speak... show me a pair of original ones with good smog holes (even PITTED original ones!) for 400.00 or less and I will show you a buyer. (me!)
PS... i'll also show you someone with a set of "exact" repros for sale very cheap too... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Rick H]

I agree with Charlie, we just sold a set of original 69 exhaust manifolds on ebay for $2025.00. The availablity of repop stuff didn't affect the sale. In most cases originality will demand the higher cost.

Rick

[70 copo]

Yep you are right. With a world wide following-there is always someone who is willing to pay big dollars for the right date on the right set of exaust manifolds. What I am saying here is the days of table selling these parts for that kind of money at Swap Meets where you can inspect the part prior to buying it- is OVER. Even the speciality swaps are affected as I go to most of them in the midwest and the east coast- these parts are not even on the tables for sale. The reason that they are on E-bay is because as the market is focused and specialized today and E-bay is the best way to reach this segment of buyers.

Phil

PS. The topic posted was about Cross Rams. Any one want to talk about that?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mark_C]

No, but since that manifold is a Offenhauser intake that has been machined to look like a Cross Ram intake (count the Bolts in the cover) it means that some bidders are becoming a little mote educated about what they are buying.

Hope whoever owns the winters foundary marking isn't too upset that someone is using it on counterfeit parts.

[Mr70]

I believe that seller is Joe at The Parts Place here in Elburn Illinois.

[70 copo]

The picture used in the first post was taken at BJ west palm in April 04, and this is the same car.

As I recall car sold for $110K Same guy who has been selling these at BJ the last few years.

Seller did not disclose that it was Offy. In fact he told me that he had it - and several others made "special" for him at a foundary.

No Mfg markings = is an attempt to deceive. As the printed material associated with the sale carefully tip toed around the manifold details- other that to state that the car was equipped with the "Ultra-Rare Cross Ram".

If they (the bidders) are paying over $100K for a car with a fake- then who is really figuring this all out?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Phil

[Salvatore]

I think the cross ram deal will be a phase. When they are available and within most peoples price range there will be many takers. As time goes on and they find themselves on just average cars, those guys that own those cars will be taking them off. Most people arn't really able to set them up and make them run very well. They will be getting sick of them and will be looking for their single 4 barrel carb to put back on. Same thing happened with the old F.I. on the vettes and 57 chevies. Average guys couldn't get them to work and they were trading them with money for the single quad. If I remember correctly there were at least 3-4 X-ram cars at Super Chevy at Maple Grove this year. The cars were not really even that nice. Kerry Stanleys is really the only one I ever saw that is efficient. Why would you want to slow a car down that is already a little timid? Sam

[njcrossramjeffm]

I don't see the phase thing at all I still think they have plenty of up side left in the value of a original piece with old dated on carbs. repro is crap and will always be looked down on. the current flood of 4295 holley's on ebay are the recently re-released version a large carb vendor form down south commissioned holley to do. you'll be seeing many of the good list# holley's popping up soon nos with old dates (buyer beware).I will make a bold prediction an say that a crossram car will be the highest of all record setting priced camaro's in the future. The AL M 68z convertible or one of the penske trans am cars (probably the 69 championship car) expect to see the million dollar mark if the market stays on the same track it's been on the last couple of years. I see that inturn influencing the value of the rest of the z28's with real gm crossrams especially ones with gm jl8's.
As far as tuning my car my crossram car has same jetting specs as Kerry's car much leaner than oem,my power valves are higher # than his due to different cam, and looser valve setting's had a noticeable effect on starting ease. I kinda like the fact that the guys that don't know how to tune a holley don't like the setup. sorta weeds out the poser's.
As far as drivability you could take my car or Kerry's coast to coast without a second thought. make sure you bring your shell gold card though.
The sound is different when your foots in the gas too, make more of who's your daddy kind'a roar, sounds like it's trying to suck you hood down through the carbs worth all the money just to listen to it through chambered exhaust don't think i turned the radio on since i put the setup on and who ever says they slow a timid motor down hasn't been in one. midrange and top end are a dramatic improvement. go to a vintage trans am you will see the 2x4 cars noticeably outpull the single 4 barrel cars. I'll never forget the first time I saw the old penske crossram camaros 67 68 and 69 car vintage race at Watkins glenn impressive power. but the best was at the Monterey classic a couple of years back live on the speed channel when I think it was pat ryan in his crossram car running in second on the last lap last corner when he snuck alongside the the mustang leading the race.then in a flat out drag race to the checker stomped the mustang by a car length. in a post race interview pats comment was (with a ear to ear grin) "a finish like that just goes to show you two for barrels are better than one"
CROSSRAM $20,000... EMBARRASSING A FORD LIVE ON NATIONAL TV.... PRICELESS!

[Charley Lillard]

The AL M 68z convertible does not have a crossram on it, just a aircleaner. I'll sell my Crossram for 20K but I think that window has closed.

[Salvatore]

You may be right my man. We will just have to see. They do look great with the hood open! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Jeff H]

I'm wondering if the $20K crossram price was a spike in the market or not. But the flood of new Holley 4295's might help run the price back up on original carbs. The repro crossrams will find a market in people who could never afford the $20K for the GM piece, but that will probably keep the GM prices up as well. Who knows, I thought $5K for a complete GM setup was ridiculous money. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[firstgenaddict]

The drag race to the Chekered Flag was classic. I could not believe it he drove deep into the corner hammered the brakes and then drag raced the Mustang to the finish.
As far as the pricing goes I'll wait to see the quality of the repo's and also if they put dates on them. That will be the real determination. If they put old casting dates and the intakes look like NOS (or good enough to fool 90% of the buyers) then that will determine if the $20,000 pricing will hold or not.

[juliosz]

Charlie,
When I saw the 68 Z convertible at the Kruse auction in Auburn (labor day weekend) it had a cross ram setup on it.

[Charley Lillard]

No..all that was there was a crossram air cleaner. If you look closely you will see 3 carb studs. The center one is attaching it to the single 4bbl carb.

[CopoCrunkus]

You can see from this pic, 1 carb From Muscle Car Review Feb, 03

[TDW]

Charley...I was at Als place a little while back.Just before he took the car to the auction. It has a crossram on it now. I took a picture of it.

[juliosz]

Interesting, this showed up in one of Heartbeat Jim's auctions for two crossram carbs on Ebay:
[ QUOTE ]
HEARTBEAT CITY CURRENTLY OWNS THE ORIGINAL TOOLING AND MOLDS/Patterns to the Original Crossram intake manifold. This would be the same tool used to make the intake manufactured in 1969. This is NOT anything like the pieces recently advertised on ebay with welded on part numbers and snowflakes and who knows what other customizing has been done to them.

Heartbeat City is 1-2 weeks away from having intakes available here on ebay. They will be sold complete with carbs and air cleaners. Every single part to mount them and run them will be included. STAY TUNED! THEY WILL BE ON EBAY WHEN THEY'RE AVAILABLE.


[/ QUOTE ]

Anybody see one yet?

[Jeff H]

Somebody else is running an auction with brand new crossrams and he even shows the manifold parts coming out of the mold. They use the casting # and Winter's snowflake as well. I think people will still pay high prices for original GM stuff knowing what it is.

[Charley Lillard]

Two years from now, how are you going to be able to tell a repo made from the orig molds vs a orig one? If they are done from the orig molds and done correctly I think they will have a big effect on value. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Jeff H]

If the new ones have 1968 or 1969 dates cast into them I would think that they would need to be sold as reproduction manifolds because if you sold one as an original GM dated manifold it would be fraud. If someone offered to sell you a crossram manifold for $2500 I would tend to think it wasn't an original GM manifold. I'm sure there will be differences in the aluminum itself as well. We can only hope there is still a way to tell original GM manifolds from these new manifolds.

[Stuart Adams]

What is the fuss with these manifolds? Someone please clarify for me. Did these manifolds come from the factory on the car and are the cars coded for that or were these put on by the dealer with an invoice? If the car has POP or some documentation from the factory, then I think there is value to making the motor correct as the factory did, but if not, its neat to have one on the car but I can't see where it adds the money they want for them. Now four way discs are way cool, but an intake manifold, set me straight. No disrespect, just confused.

[Jeff H]

You don't think factory performance parts are cool? Factory offered headers, off-road cam, crossram setup, transistor ignition, etc. They are all neat because they were offered by GM. Ford did the same thing with the cross-boss setup. AMC actually used an Edelbrock manifold I believe. I can see people paying for original performance parts, it's the people paying $1500 for a set of door sill plates that I don't understand. But it all comes down to suppyly and demand regardless of what type of part it is. Restoring a car with correct or appropriate parts has become a huge hobby. I thought crossrams were overpriced at $5000 but then people kept paying more and more. Never doubt a person's desire to restore their car the way they want.

[Stuart Adams]

I never in my post said factory performance parts aern't cool. I love performance enhancement. Were these manifolds performance enhancers, I've read were they were a pain in the butt to run and never worked as should. Nothing against what people put on cars but these manifolds seem less about performance than looks.
I never doubted the way a person restores their car, just looking for clarification as to if these were factory or dealer installed. Good luck with your project.

[Jeff H]

They were dyno proven to add 25 hp so that's a decent improvement. Obviously they were designed to add hp in the upper rpm range where the roadrace cars spent most of their time so a crossram on a drag car was not a good idea. I know quite a few guys running the crossram and have no problems after some tuning and setup. That's true of any carb/intake change. But if you had to drive your Z28 to work in the snow, a crossram would not be a good idea. To most people it's just a really cool looking performance piece to put on your engine.

[Stuart Adams]

I agree, they are cool. Post some pics when your car is done.

[Chris396]

If I had an original I'd sell it if I knew the repos were exactly like the originals only without date codes.

[Mark_C]

Heres an original one on Ebay now, Now that the repros are coming out this will be one of the first tests to see how or if they will affect originals. Opening bid is $8500, 6 1/2 days to go.
Ebay Cross Ram Auction (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7931068958&catego ry=36474) .

[Pantera]

Did you really mean to say "A cross ram on a drag car" ? I think that statement would apply more to a street car. I ran one on my '62 Chev II and it was very good. Not good on the street though.

[Salvatore]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had an original I'd sell it if I knew the repos were exactly like the originals only without date codes.

[/ QUOTE ]I hate to say it, but I think this is why all these x-rams are showing up right now. People are trying to get all they can for the originals before the repros catch on down the road. JMO Sam

[DarrenX33]

Reasonable opinion there Sam. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Salvatore]

It kinda looks that way to me Darren. Always seems to be about the buck! Sam http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[firstgenaddict]

Yes I agree that a reputable seller would "have" to market the manifold as a repo. BUT what is to stop someone from misrepresenting it in 2 years as Charlie said. AND if they have dates on them who is going to know? This could get REAL ugly in 5-10 years!

[Salvatore]

Absolutely! It probably will.

[Mr70]

Personally I've never paid much attention to this Xram intake manifold,until the recent ebay prices,& last Januarys B/J auction car.
Was it these two incidences that caused the repro market to take notice,or were they tooling up to repop this manifold looooong before those two examples happened?

[Salvatore]

Good Question! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif Ask Jimmy Stubbing at Heartbeat City.

[DarrenX33]

I think it is safe to say that anyone who watched the yellow Z at BJ who has the means to produce such a piece had a light bulb over their head after the auction. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif If not I'd say the timing is pretty incredible. But only those doing it know the answer.

[427TJ]

Just saw this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7931068958&catego ry=36474

[Salvatore]

They are coming out of the woodwork! Get em while they last. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[70 copo]

WOW!!! Talk about a market correction..... What was wrong with this original X-ram?? Was it the one side missing the date? Looks like the buyers for this one were election watching.......

(see this thread on page one for the history on this issue)


http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Phil

[Jeff H]

I think the missing casting # scared a lot of people.

[70 copo]

Jeff,

That was still a significant price drop given that the remaining parts were all original dated unmolested GM stuff. 6 months ago these set ups were not on the market at all.

All of the sudden $20+K was the number for an NOS unit, and now that the Reproductions are out we are suddenly back to reality.

Dollar wise - seems almost as bad as a Tech Stock on wall street was in 2000.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Somebody made some money here, as I think we would have agreed that 6 months ago $8500 would have been a "steal" for a complete unit.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Phil

[Salvatore]

You are right Dr. Phil! This was predicted. Why would anybody pay 20-25 thousand for a crossram. Just to much money! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[Jeff H]

Not really Phil. Several crossram setups were recently only bid up to around $15K which did not meet their reserves and this was before the repo crossram was out. There were a few people willing to pay the $21,000 for a setup(which still seems crazy) but once that group all had crossrams the prices were bound to drop. This recent auction had mismatched carbs and the lower manifold had no casting # so it definitely hurt the value of the deal. But I don't think you'll be seeing too many people paying $20K for a complete setup unless it's truly NOS and mint condition. I think the GM setups will still be going for $12-15K and the repos with the incorrect repo carbs will probably be lucky to get $5K. But that's just my opinion. I wonder if the news of the repo's coming out made some people want a real GM setup before the repos appeared so there would be no confusion and that might have caused the spike in the market. Remember, it's not the price of the part that matters to some people, it's the fact that it's a genuine GM part which will dictate the price.

[Canucklehead]

So if a guy was to buy a car with the real x-ram set-up on it and replace it with the repo piece, does that mean that his car is now worth 20K less?. So now he can sell the original for 20K!!!. I would think the car will still fetch a good price, but not 20k less. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Jeff H]

[ QUOTE ]
So if a guy was to buy a car with the real x-ram set-up on it and replace it with the repo piece, does that mean that his car is now worth 20K less?. So now he can sell the original for 20K!!!. I would think the car will still fetch a good price, but not 20k less. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you come up with those numbers, they make no sense at all? If you took a $20K part off the car and put a $5K part back on, why would it lose $20K in value? And if it really did, why would you waste $5K putting the repo back on it then? Only time will tell what is going to happen with the prices, but I just can't see the crossram market being that big even if the repos sell for $5K or less. I mean, how many guys are really paying $1500 for a pair of NOS GM door sill plates?

[Steve Shauger]

Jeff, keep mentioning the $1500 sill plates... that was a made up sale on ebay. And not the norm, as it was a one time occurrence and it was bogus transaction. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Salvatore]

Not sure about 1500 ones, but i did see a set maybe 2 years ago go for 2800. Crazy but true. Ask Jerry MacNeish what he got for a set of rare 69 Z/28 factory headers.

[70 copo]

Yes I know. Larry C. from Colorado just started Reproducing Perfect factory 302 header Knock offs from all three years-67, 68, and 69. $1500.00 per pair.

Jeff I respect your opinion-but on the X rams-I stand by my opinion there. I think we all agree they are are down in value.

Now market forces are now in control- because they are now available again. How low they go depends on the quality of the reproductions and how many flood the market, are installed, and then removed for resale.

The next test will be to see if the Knock off's change the value of these X-ram cars at Auction? Scottsdale is not too far off. We will see.

Phil

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, it's not the price of the part that matters to some people, it's the fact that it's a genuine GM part which will dictate the price.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%, if the fact people can load yet another repro part onto their car for cheap makes them happy, so be it, but true NOS pieces (not put-together, parts missing, etc. setups like the one in question) will continue to command top buck from the purists... I never did see cross ram setups changing hands by the dozen at 20K+, now OR before the repro stuff was being made, that was one or two guys who fought over a beyond the oridinary, totally perfect and NOS setup. As was stated, once these select few got what they wanted, the prices settled back down... when someone else decides they "have to have" an NOS GM crossram, the price will likely spike again. I personally think it would be easier to sell an NOS GM setup for 20k than it would be to sell a "brand new" totally fake, reproduction setup for 5k. JMO.

[JChlupsa]

Agreed Joe, Its the GM/Winters marks that bring out the prices.

[Jeff H]

Joe, there were several setups that sold on Ebay for $20-22K so it wasn't a single occurance.

Phil, I'm not arguing that crossram prices will come down and haven't already come down. I totally agree that they will not stay at $20K and we are already seeing that. But I think they will stay in the $12-15K range for real GM setups and the repos will sell for around $5K IMO.

The crazy thing about some of the NOS parts is that they don't look or fit like the original assembly line parts but people will still pay top dollar to keep their car all GM. That is part of the challenge in restoring a car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
an NOS unit

[/ QUOTE ]

A complete NOS Crossram set-up is few and far between...IMO there could be a thousand repops on the market but a true NOS complete set-up is going to bring the money....wonder what a complete NOS BE 4 series posi unit would bring and you can't even see that part?? If someone wants the absolute best stuff on the market and want to pay up for it...more power to them...

[Mark_C]

What is a complete NOS setup? Could you ever walk up to the service counter at a GM dealer and give them a single part number for the whole crossram setup, or did the parts guy have to go digging thru the shelves for each individual piece, placing orders for the parts that weren't on the shelf?

[Jeff H]

Yes Mark, there was a single part # for the complete setup. I forget what it is at the moment. It's listed in Wayne Guinn's book and Jerry MacNeish's book.

[JChlupsa]

As per W. Guinn's book <font color="blue"> Camaro Untold Secrets 1967-1969 </font>

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/HawaiianCamaro/Magazine%20articles/PICT0189.jpg

[Mr70]

I don't see it,can you enlarge it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/JeffSucksToo.gif

[70 copo]

Here they come. The repop actually looks too good if you ask me.... So here is the way to tell the originals from the GM approved repops... if the edges are too sharp, and the detail too good... then its a repop! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

According to the seller it is approved by the General.. As in General Motors that is! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...237094&amp;rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;category=10076&amp;item=4513237 094&amp;rd=1)

[Jeff H]

This is kind of confusing since Jim at Heartbeat City claims to be the only one licensed to reproduce the crossram and now this guy has one too. The manifold sure looks good though.

[hugger_69]

Jim made that claim a couple months ago where he stated he would have a complete reproduction intake ready for sale the next week. What happened to that, and why did that marketing claim disappear? He did say that he owned the original tooling did he not? He did claim to be the only one licensed did he not? Perhaps he is proceeding, but at a slower pace than at first thought. In any case, this classicpts ( 28) seller on eBay claims not only to be GM licensed, but states there were no original molds etc. I'd like to hear the rest of that subject as Jim claimed to have them? This seller at least delivered the intake as he claimed he would a couple weeks ago. His ad further states that a complete package will be forthcoming in the new year.

" complete bolt on package including camshaft and lifters will be available just after the 1st of the year if looking to purchase the complete setup"

Very interesting topic if you ask me. I would predict this will bring down the price of originals somewhere near the 12,500.00 market, with the complete repop kits will sell in the 7K range. If other vendors like Heartbeat also obtain licensing, then surely there will be a price war on repop units? I doubt there will be more than one vendor if GM has backed the part with licensing. They get royalties on the rice, and creating more than one vendor is like GM shooting themselves in the foot isn't it?

Time will tell.....

[70 copo]

I am sure that GM Legal will be watching the others if the new seller's claims are true - that he has the only ligit repops that are GM approved....

Phil

[Salvatore]

Who really wants them?? The repops cost about the same as a decent paint job. If I had a choice I would spend the money on a decent or better paint job. If somebody can spend 60,000 on a Z/28 resto, they have the bucks to buy an original X-ram setup. I think I have a fairly nice 69 Z/28 but how much do people think these cars are really worth? If an original X-ram is really worth $23,000 than the Z/28 camaro is not worthy of that option. I will instead buy another car and restore it for that money. Remember a Z/28 is NOT a supercar. JMO Sam

[70 copo]

"Remember a Z/28 is NOT a supercar".

The bidders at the last couple of Barriett-Jackson auctions must be quite confused then - cause I think if they are willing to shell out over $100K for a car I would call it one of two ways, either it is a car everyone wants, or the market for these cars (and perhaps others) is currently in "Junk bond" territory (and we all know what happened to those...) Lets see will see what they bring at Scottsdale this year http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

As for the X-ram on E-bay this was posted at the top of the auction:

"The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer available for sale."

Anyone have the skinny on what happened here??

Phil

[Salvatore]

Phil, I would say more money than brains! I understand the guy is trying to re-coop some of his money. I own a nice 1969 Z/28. It is still NOT a supercar. Just a very desirable muscle car. JMO Sam

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Yep, the buyers at BJ are confused - the guy in the yellow jacket definitely was! Plus, you don't know how those high dollar deals shake out afterwards anyway, so I wouldn't use BJ as a true market indicator anymore than I would EBaY.

I remember the COPO Camaro and Chevelle that went across, barely pulling $75k or so = confusion? color? trans? But then they sold a few months later for much more?

BJ is fun to watch, but I leave it at that!

[Steve Shauger]

The car at BJ was questionable in just about every respect. It appeared to be a put together car with mostly repop parts. I also believe that this car may be back at BJ this year. A lot of people got caught up by the sale of that car. In reality it was just smoke and mirrors. I would hope the true enthusiast would not have been taken, as the fool in the Yellow Jacket was. I will tell you this, BJ is very, very entertaining.

[Hylton]

My favourite BJ car was the black COPO Camaro formerly owned by Reggie Jackson that had A/C! That was hillarious!

[Salvatore]

Well said Steve!

[Mr70]

Well said Sam.

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
This is kind of confusing since Jim at Heartbeat City claims to be the only one licensed to reproduce the crossram and now this guy has one too. The manifold sure looks good though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the auction from Heartbeat city...will the owner of the real GM license please stand up?? Perhaps more than one? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...;category=34198 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;rd=1&amp;item=4514735004&amp;catego ry=34198)

Phil

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, the buyers at BJ are confused - the guy in the yellow jacket definitely was! Plus, you don't know how those high dollar deals shake out afterwards anyway, so I wouldn't use BJ as a true market indicator anymore than I would EBaY.

I remember the COPO Camaro and Chevelle that went across, barely pulling $75k or so = confusion? color? trans? But then they sold a few months later for much more?

BJ is fun to watch, but I leave it at that!

[/ QUOTE ]


The seller in this auction below reminds all of us of the 110K figure, and then tips the reader off to the reserve amount being "less than Half that" (52.k reserve?) This car may be one of the first for sale with one of the reproduction manifold assembly units installed. Looks like a deal to me especially with the Barriett-Jackson 04 re-run being on the air over on Speed all day http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...p;category=6161 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;rd=1&amp;item=4516015971&amp;catego ry=6161)

Phil

[Mark_C]

Does it still look like a good deal when you look at the engine pad stamping?
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL826/451234/5881480/78572049.jpg

[70 copo]

Sure it does. If you recall the cross rams that drove the market the last couple of years were FAKES with no part numbers on them at all, and the cars were assembled units- I was there-I looked at them. Furthermore the seller in this auction states the motor was correct and did not state that it was the original. 110K at B-J 52K now.. Good color still sounds like a good deal... Or perhaps, (drum roll) the market has dropped for these cars?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Phil

[Mark_C]

Oh and to answer the casting date question on the repro crossram manifolds. The guy from Arizona that is selling them has said that they carry correct 69 casting dates. Don't know if you can specify a date or not. don't know about the dating on Heartbeat City's version.

http://www.camaros.net/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/6/5206.html?

Can't quite read the month but I can see 68 (or 69) in the date on this one (maybe 10/11/68?):

http://i5.ebayimg.com/03/i/03/13/f4/d3_12_b.JPG

From this auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;rd=1&amp;item=4513799341

[DWCamaro69]

Mark C and Phil, The engine pad pic and the Garnet Red Z on ebay are mine. Although I have learned alot about '69 Camaros in all the years I have been collecting them, I know little to nothing about restamping, broach marks, etc. If I knew and was trying to hide something I wouldn't have posted that picture in the auction. The engine was in the car when I bought it and the previous owner gave me several pictures of the car being restored and that engine pic was one of them. Maybe it is obvious in the pic that it is a restamp? I gave all the casting numbers/dates and that pic to Kurt S. at CRG when I first bought the car sometime ago and he believed it was probably a restamp as well although I think he said the cast number and date and pad stamp were all in an acceptable time line. I didn't restamp it, and dont believe the previous owner did either so I had no way to know for sure either way. Because of no VIN on block and no documentation I did not represent the engine as being original or it to be matching numbers. As Phil stated I used the term "correct" as it is a correctly built (internals, heads, etc) and dated DZ302. I have tried to be honest and upfront about the car and my reserve is about 50% of the value of a documented, matching numbers Z with a original GM crossram. This is a real Z/28 that is nicely restored, nothing more or less. I have not taken any offense by the post, just wanted to state my case!

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Mark C and Phil, The engine pad pic and the Garnet Red Z on ebay are mine. Although I have learned alot about '69 Camaros in all the years I have been collecting them, I know little to nothing about restamping, broach marks, etc. If I knew and was trying to hide something I wouldn't have posted that picture in the auction. The engine was in the car when I bought it and the previous owner gave me several pictures of the car being restored and that engine pic was one of them. Maybe it is obvious in the pic that it is a restamp? I gave all the casting numbers/dates and that pic to Kurt S. at CRG when I first bought the car sometime ago and he believed it was probably a restamp as well although I think he said the cast number and date and pad stamp were all in an acceptable time line. I didn't restamp it, and dont believe the previous owner did either so I had no way to know for sure either way. Because of no VIN on block and no documentation I did not represent the engine as being original or it to be matching numbers. As Phil stated I used the term "correct" as it is a correctly built (internals, heads, etc) and dated DZ302. I have tried to be honest and upfront about the car and my reserve is about 50% of the value of a documented, matching numbers Z with a original GM crossram. This is a real Z/28 that is nicely restored, nothing more or less. I have not taken any offense by the post, just wanted to state my case!

[/ QUOTE ]

Dana, I'd buy your car after reading this. The only thing I'd quibble with is why it doesn't have a D80 stamp on the tag if it has "factory spoilers." Maybe I missed something. Nice Z.

[camarojoe]

Its a pretty cool looking car...numbers matching or not.

[DWCamaro69]

427TJ, Some of the more knowledgeable guys could give more info but I believe that the D80 code on the cowl tag didn't appear until later in the year. Maybe around 05 or 06? Thanks to you, Joe and Phil for your compliments.

[rszmjt]

D80 did not appear until May/69. By the way , regarding the VO329DZ pad, i have read that Flint Blocks ( DZ engines were all built at Flint) ALL had the 1/4" hex pipe plug in the front above the timing cover, which this block is missing.
Still a nice car though.

Just my .25 worth.

[Mark_C]

The D80 code did not appear until later in the year, and even then not all cars with spoilers got it.

I have no problem with the ad, nothing in it says original engine and it is a nice looking car, much nicer than mine (mine doesn't have the original motor, and it also isn't stamped with any assembly code). I only was only trying to put it in the context of being compared to the 112K BJ Z28 (which itself contains some less than original parts). If people (or just one person) feel that this car is a 50K car great. I'm just trying to get a feel for where the numbers matching (or original engine) and non numbers matching (correct engine) values are these days.

[Jeff H]

That seems to be the big mysery Mark. Trying to figure out what an original #'s matching Z28 in great condition is worth. The way the Yenkos and COPOs have jumped this year, it looks like it's bringing up the rest of the cars up in value too.

[Jonesy]

I doubt the engine is original. The stamping looks suspect and it is a 388 block. I have never seen a 388 block that was built at Flint engine. The 388 block was used at Tonawanda. This car should have a 618 block, I think it's a little too late for the 386 block. There are a few things that keep this car for being a $50K plus car, but it is still a nice Z28. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[DWCamaro69]

Jonesy, I think we have established the engine is not the original. I have had an offer of $50K to end the auction early from a legit collector which I turned down, so lets hope your wrong about it not being a $50K+ car http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[70 copo]

Looks like it went over $50... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Phil