Steel '69 Crate Camaro

[GOAT72]

I'm posting in this forum among us "non-Chevy" dudes, because there was a post about this in the regular Chevy discussion threads with a somewhat apethetic response. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Anywayzzz...
This month's HOT ROD magazine has a cover story about full-bodied/framed '69 Camaro 'verts that you can purchase for about $12K?
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
I've only skimmed the article, but it looks like they'll be fabricating '67 'Stangs next.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Will this depreciate the value of the Camaro? I mean, even though they're aftermarket shells, won't this create a glut of '69 Bowtie F-bodies?
What about car shows?
In 5 years will there be long lines of RS or SS Camaro clones at the car shows?
I think the '69 Z/28 was one of the coolest cars ever made. I'd hate to see this model year Camaro become "ho-hum".
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

What do you think?

Mac

[BARN FIND]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm posting in this forum among us "non-Chevy" dudes, because there was a post about this in the regular Chevy discussion threads with a somewhat apethetic response. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Anywayzzz...
This month's HOT ROD magazine has a cover story about full-bodied/framed '69 Camaro 'verts that you can purchase for about $12K?
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
I've only skimmed the article, but it looks like they'll be fabricating '67 'Stangs next.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Will this depreciate the value of the Camaro? I mean, even though they're aftermarket shells, won't this create a glut of '69 Bowtie F-bodies?
What about car shows?
In 5 years will there be long lines of RS or SS Camaro clones at the car shows?
I think the '69 Z/28 was one of the coolest cars ever made. I'd hate to see this model year Camaro become "ho-hum".
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

What do you think?

Mac

[/ QUOTE ]

(HO-HUM)...that is something that a 69 Camaro could never be!!!

[supercomp 8.90]

the kits didnt seem to bother real 60s cobras, they are still worth big bucs. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Canucklehead]

It's just going to create a big glut of people trying to pass them off as real!!

[DaJudge]

I think you will see more custom cars out there. You know people who own all original big dollar Camaros that really don't drive them will now be able to build killer Camaros that they are not afraid to drive. Drop in a crate motor a Jericho trans and a stout rear and you have a great driver or show car. I will agree some people will try to rebody and create fakes but with the knowledgeable people in the hobby it will be really hard to get everything just right. What I believe will happen is that heavily documented cars with all the right paperwork will become even more valuable and cars with no docs will be hurt the most. Just my two cents. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[427TJ]

People who value original cars, especially Z's and SS's, will pay top-dollar for originals. People who just want a nice driver car, an eye-popping street machine, or "Power Cruiser" will pay top-dollar for well-built (Steilow, for example) cars no matter what the origin of the car is. We're already seeing collectors paying large amounts for LS-6 clones, etc., knowing that the car is not an original LS-6. That yellow '69 Z/28 that sold at B-J this year for what, $112K?, was surrounded by questions as to its originality. Still, some guy with big bucks (and a matching yellow jacket) dropped 112K on the car, on TV, and he probably has had fun with the car since buying it. This is one of those permanent back-and-forth discussions that can never be resolved--some guys will demand originals and others won't care either way. Money flows like water and it goes wherever it wants to. It's more an issue of honesty. There will definately be "clones" built from these new bodies, we all know it, and it's up to all of us to watch out for the guys who will try to pass these new cars off as originals. But, many will fall through the cracks and it's not too far-fetched to imagine a day when we won't be able to tell the fakes from the originals. Iced tea-stained "paperwork" such as buildsheets, etc., new Protect-O-Plates, new trim tags, dealer window stickers downloaded from the Internet--it's already here. Couple that with a new '69 Camaro body and all the new parts and the money will flow. I've already predicted that Hemi Cuda convertible clones will grow in numbers once new bodies are produced, even though all but one of the originals has been accounted for. Collectors and enthusiasts who can't get or afford an original will no doubt gladly pay for very well built clones using new bodies.

When I saw the new Hot Rod and read the article on the new '69 convert bodies, my first thought was "cool!" I immediately 'built' one in my head: a "COPO" convertible. LeMans Blue or Dusk Blue, white/black interior, Bill Mitchell "Hardcore" 509-inch Rat dressed as a factory engine, M-22, 12-bolt 3:73 Posi, 15-inch Rallys with Firestone Oval 70s, discs all around, D80, rosewood, slightly lowered. Okay, maybe a new ZL-1 block with Dart aluminum heads. Nope, it wouldn't be a "real" car but it sure sounds like fun to me and it's not a Faberge egg that can never be taken out in the sunshine and DRIVEN---HARD.

[Hylton]

That's what I like best about the crate cars - I am going to build one heck of a torque twister and won't worry about damaging a classic muscle car. My cars always end up being full resto's because I want them to be as delivered from the factory. Finally! I can get a car that can be painted whatever color and have whatever options and drivetrain.

[StealthBird]

I'm curious, wouldn't these "Crate-a-maros" have to be titled as a kit car? There's no way it could be titled as a legit Camaro, could they? Yes, I know, ethics will go out the window on a few of these, and VIN tags will be transferred, but I would think when someone applies for a title on a 35 year old car that never existed before, they would not be able to get a title stating it was actually a 69 Camaro because it would not have a VIN.

"Is this a real Yenko Camaro?"
-No, it's a clone. Reproduction stripes.

"Is this a real 427 engine?"
- No, it's a crate 502.

"Are those the original wheels and tires?"
- No, repro wheels, repro tires

"Umm...is this a real Camaro?"
- No, it's a kit car.

"Wow, this is a real classic!" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[ANDY M]

Demand creates supply. The market wouldn't exist without it. Since just about any part can be repoped, why not make it a kit. Unless someone tries to creat a salvage title, the kit maker has the burden on how it's sold, not titled.

[BARN FIND]

Four rivets and presto...it's a 1969 Camaro with the title to prove it (yes I know there are some "secret vin #"). OKAY four rivets and a set of number stamps. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif <font color="red"> </font>

[Supercar_Kid]

I've yet to see anything reproduction that is totally undistinguishable from the original. Somehow I doubt these "crate Camaros" will fool anyone who knows 69 Camaros well, with real Camaro body and VIN tags or not. It will just be something more for Camaro enthusiasts to look for when checking out a car, just like repro parts and sheetmetal can be spotted if you look for it. I also don't think it'll do much to the value of "real" 69 Camaros, except for the $8500 plain jane putty bomb project cars that will get passed on in favor of fresh shells for a bit more coin. Those cars may never get the restoration or revival that they otherwise may have received, because the pickings will simply never be that slim with reproduction bodies in the works. There were over 243,000 Camaros built in '69, they're hardly obsolete as a model in particular. The SS, Z/28, RS and so on will continue to be the cars people seek out and restore, while these crate cars will undoubtedly open the door to new project ideas for the pro-touring/custom/drag racing crowd. I think both parties can live harmoniously, if anything the purists may have been spared a few good cars from the cut and hack gang. Only time will tell I guess...

[camarojoe]

I know they say they have tons of orders and interest, but does anyone know of anyone actually planning to buy one of these if and when they are made readily available? Most guys I know won't even put a taiwan fender or doorskin on their car, let alone an entire body for 12 g's.

[Turbo Regal]

The article also said 67 Mustangs and possibly early 70's Cudas are next. With Hemi cuda converts going for over $1 million and good 318 cars going for $30k, many folks might go for a repop.

[firstgenaddict]

I tell you what they would be great for.
A reproduction Trans Am spec series. Like the Factory Five racers. Now how many of you would be interested in that?
I have been thinking about this since there was first talk of repoping the bodies.
4 wheel disk brakes, crate 350, Jerico, roll cage, Sunoco Paint job..... SWEET!

[77Z28]

The items that caught my eye in the Hot Rod article were the cost of kit body http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif Earlier hipe had the cost at under 5k, now there 12k http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif Second they do not have licensing yet from GM to market it as a Camaro. You can bet if GM agrees to license it they will not do it for free, therefore price will go up.

Regarding who may be buying one of these kits, I have a friend who's nephew is very interested in the kit to serve as a patform for a drag car, however I think he was interested in hardtop version.

I think the whole kit idea is great and I for one would love to see more 69 Camaro's on the road.

Todd http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[camarojoe]

I think its pretty ironic that it will soon be possible to own a 69 Camaro with less american parts than an 04 Honda.

[427TJ]

I have an old Rod &amp; Custom magazine from the early '70s that contains an article on a then-new '34 Ford Roadster body done in fiberglass. The repop was parked next to a genuine '34 Ford Roadster and the repro was hailed as having the potential of being the next big thing in rodding. Remember that in the early '70s you could still buy original '34 Roadsters without having to balloon-mortgage your house and it was thought that the 'glass '34s were more of a short-term fad and not yet a necessity. Now, there's companies like Brookville, etc., that produce brand new steel '32 Ford Roadster bodies and fenders as well as other body styles, not to mention the large number of fiberglass early Ford bodies available. Hot Rod led this month's repop Camaro convert story with the statement: "This changes everything." I have to agree. Just as with the 'glass roadster bodies 30 years ago, it will take time for builders to warm up to these new bodies. Once a few 'name' builders and others roll out their versions of the new Camaro, it's likely that any 'stigma' that might arise from the fact that it's not "real" will be forgotten. Again, a certain percentage of collectors will always value originals and pay accordingly. In 30 years we could see Boyd Coddington-style high-end shops producing mega-dollar '69 Camaro convertibles (Cudas, Mustangs, etc., etc.), just as we see today. Original cars will continue to escalate in value, as we're already seeing, and these repop bodies will become popular out of sheer demand and necessity.

My 4 year-old son is 100% gearhead and I'm sure as hell not going to let him drive my '67 RS/SS 396 to high school. If he wants a first-gen Camaro and can't afford $50,000-up for an incomplete-but-restorable original (it's coming, mark my words), then I can see buying a new body and building one that way. History repeats itself: Fiberglass '34 body = Reproduction steel '69 Camaro body. Anyone price an original steel '34 Ford Roadster lately? Can you say "$75,000" minimum? Who'd have imagined that kind of coin for a '34 back in 1970? Who could have imagined $2,000,000 for a Hemi Cuda convertible back in 1980?

Oh, and the idea of a retro Trans Am racing series using the new bodies sounds like fun. Unfortunately, as with all racing nowadays, it quickly becomes a million-dollar ordeal just to be competitive. If it could be kept relatively low to medium-dollar it could be a great thing.

Lastly, the Hot Rod article stated that the new Camaro bodies aren't "Taiwan steel," they have equal or better quality steel as originals and fit and finish is as good, probably better.

[Steve_Hoog]

Joe you would be hard pressed to find American parts on the current showroom floor new GM cars. It makes me sick.

[Hylton]

Company who is manufacturing the body is called Dynacorn International. They just updated their website to include the new body information! Go to: http://www.dynacorn.com/site/04home/home.html and click on the Circle on the right that says "Dynacorn Classic Bodies Inc."

[jg95z28]

Well, my issue of Hot Rod finally arrived and I got to read the full article. What a load of crap! The article makes it sound like the main intention of the 1969 convertible body is for new turn key custom musclecars. Give me a break! They admit in the story they don't have GM licensing yet. They also suggest that the new bodies will have special VINs but that's never clarified. Furthermore, go a few pages further in the same issue and there's a huge picture of a rusted out 69 Camaro coupe. Read the caption of where the car is located? CARS, Inc. in NC.

They fully intend to mainly use these for complete rebodies using existing VINs. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

Or maybe I'm just overly cynical.

[NCGuy68]

I can see the price of original Trim Tag rivets going sky-high. And to think I tossed out a box of them a few years back!!!! Gezzzzzz! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Dynacorn]

I think you all should be calling and asking questions instead of speculating. The truth of it is this...# 1 go to our website at www.dynacorn.com (http://www.dynacorn.com) and download the new PDF up under Classic Bodies. Secondly, note, the components offered are not a complete body until YOU assemble them. The information on the website and rhetoric in HOT Rod magazine was totally wrong and without substance. Where it is true, there are companies in the US with the jigging necessary to complete the assembly for you, we do not do it and your dealer will not sell you one assembled. Is not going to happen.

The VIN problem is simple. If you are going to be working on your old convertible to restore it. Simply remove the VIN from the old one and attach it to the new one. All the pertinents are the same other than the year of manufacture, and that really doesn't change either as all you are doing is restoring an old car. If you want to buy the components to assemble yourself a Hot Rod, then simply notify the company that is assembling them for you. They can, as licensed Auto MAnufacturers, give you a legal VIN number.

Please feel free to call us at Dynacorn for any further questions.

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
The VIN problem is simple. If you are going to be working on your old convertible to restore it. Simply remove the VIN from the old one and attach it to the new one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say what? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Mr70]

http://www.hugh308.homestead.com/files/gary_coleman.jpg

[SuperNovaSS]

Hey, don't jumble all of us Californians together!

[BARN FIND]

I went to the website, it appears that Dynacorn has gotten around the legal question by not selling a completely assembled Camaro. What they have is every part needed to repair a convertible Camaro (if you buy all of them and assemble one from scratch then so be it!) There are probably a few running around right now that started as rotted/rusted hulks that had almost every body part replaced with new/scavenged/handmade parts. I am not condoning fraud, it is just that I wonder where the line is drawn between a long involved restoration and a rebody. How many parts separate the restoration from a rebody? If you use NOS/used parts is it a restoration and if you use Dynacorn/Goodmark parts is it a rebody? Again, I am not condoning fraud, I just wonder if anyone has a solid definition of a rebody compared to a restoration or is it like dealing with my wife "I don't know but I will know it when I see it!" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[GM-26]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The VIN problem is simple. If you are going to be working on your old convertible to restore it. Simply remove the VIN from the old one and attach it to the new one.

[/ QUOTE ]

See Attachment. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Mr. T]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The VIN problem is simple. If you are going to be working on your old convertible to restore it. Simply remove the VIN from the old one and attach it to the new one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say what? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt!! This whole idea is http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[firstgenaddict]

Someone better hope that the Feds ain't watchin!
Cause basically Dynacorn has acknowledged that there is going to be VIN tampering and even told you how to do it!

[Charley Lillard]

I would assume Dynacorn has had their legal department look at it and is more informed than we are.

[Mark_C]

Since your not swapping a VIN from one Motor vehicle to another its perfectly legal to remove and replace your VIN as needed to make a repair. The body tub qualifies as a repair part, no different than a replacement dash, or quarter panel.

[firstgenaddict]

Legal that may be questionable. Ethical to pass off as original now there is no question about that!
Just my $.02

[Dynacorn]

When you restore a car, you are not VIN tampering. Your vin will state the year, make, model...etc. When your restored vehicle is done nothing has changed. And that, in case you are interested, comes directly from THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. As far as the feds are concerned, and, incidentaly, the DMV in California, a restored car is the same as the original. As long as original parts still exist on the vehicle, you are legal. You obviously can't build a brand new vehicle and slap an original VIN on it. But, if a turn key vehicle is built by a manufacturer, then they have the ability to make a VIN also. I don't understand what the big deal is here.

[Pantera]

If you should change the firewall and or remove the vin plate and put it on a new part you are violating a fed law. You are risking the feds conficistcating your car.

Now if you save the firewall, and expecially the hidden vin # (or as much is still good) and put it on a new body work then you would be much safer with the authorites. It is against a federal law to alter or remove a vin plate for any reason.

I learnd this the hard way with a wrecked '84 vette that I still have in storage. The guy I bought it from had stolen a nice car and removed the vin plate off mine and put it on the nice car that he stole.

I was found to be the legal and righfull owner of the wrecked car and he went to jail. I cannot recover the original vin plate but will have to do a state assigned vin plate if I put the car back on the road. I was planing on building a street car that looked like the IMSA corvettes back about that time but have since lost interest. Car only hss 60k on it.

So before you do something like this you should think hard about who wants to have them impound thier car for trying to do the right thing.

Do we have a fed on here that can give us a legal opinion?
Plese do your homework before you remove a vin plate. The feds just might ruin your day.

Pantera
former bodyshop owner.

[Supergas990]

Wow... You know what they say... "Rationalization is the second strongest human instinct".

As a street rod, great. As a restoration piece, it just doesn't seem to have much upside.

IMHO

Blair

[Canucklehead]

Im actually looking at doing a pro-street build of a 69 Camaro and have been tossing around the idea of using one of these bodys. I have been looking for quite sometime for a donor car and am finding that one in decent enough shape to start from is going to cost me 10k+. Than of course i have to repair whatever i need to keep. I figure it's going to cost me $25-30k just to prep the body. If i start with one of these body's at 12k, i would have to do my body mods from there, but should be running at about 20-25k for a prepped body. That would give me a BRAND NEW body, but not an original camaro. Since im building a complete street rod there won't be much left of an original. Im torn as to weather i should use an original or not. If you want to talk resale, while looking at this years BJ auction, street rods do retain good dollors unlike years ago, but would it make a defference if it was original or not, and if so how much?. Would it be worth it to use an original?, or save it for someone else to restore?. Sure you may say im distroying a perfectly good camaro, or am i keeping it alive. I really can't decide. Theres good and bad points either way.

[Dynacorn]

Check with your DMV.

[Dynacorn]

Mark C is absolutely correct. The replacement components are considered restoration parts. And as such, if you need to remove a VIN to replace a part, you are allowed by law to do so. As to whether someone is trying to pass off a clone as an original, that's not our realm. We deal in restoration and replacement parts only.

[Mark_C]

The only problem with your math is that when you buy an old Camaro in need of work, you are getting a ton of other parts beyond the sheet metal that you will need to build your car that will cost you huge dollars to get later on. Things like wiring harnesses, suspension components, an engine and transmission (usually), interior components etc. Even if the original are not good enough, or don't fit with your plans to be used in your new pro street, or pro touring car, they can be sold to recoupe some of your cost. To replace all the wiring inside a Camaro will run you in excess of $1200 just in the 4 original style harnesses.

When you buy these body components to start your build with that's all you get, no subframe, no suspension, wiring, interior, convertible top mechanism, etc. Add up the cost of obtaining those pieces individually and see where you end up.

People are still comparing transferring a VIN from one vehicle to another (which is illegal) to transferring a VIN from your car to a repair part (like a dash panel). These parts do not meet the definition of a motor vehicle as defined by the DOT so that is not an issue here even if the parts were welded up into a body tub as the original plan seemed to be. One would assume the GM, not the Feds, had something to do with preventing the assembly of the parts into a complete body tub because of licensing.

The 12K price was what was qouted for the assembled tub, wonder what the price is now for the parts, and how much does it cost to get them welded together? Are we still at 12K plus shipping to get it put together?

[Pantera]

Are you sure about the Vin transfer thing? I was informed by a federal law enforcment officer that once a vin plate was removed from a car for any reason you are violiating federal law if you put it back on.

Even on the same car that you put a repair part on. They will make you put a assigned vin number with a OK at the start of it here in Oklahoma. I am not sure what they do in other states. If you remove one and put it back on new parts on your same car don't tell anyone. You might loose your car on the spot if they find out.

I tried to get the original vin for a 84 vette stripper that I legally have. When they recovered the stolen vette that it was ilegally installed on, it was "NO deal" I could not get it done.

Psntera
former owner of
Corvette World Body and Repair
Tulsa OK

[Mark_C]

US Code Title 18 Section 511: Note Sections (B),(C), and (D) of Paragrah (2)

Section 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

(a) A person who -
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters anidentification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part;
or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years,
or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are -
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by -
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
(c) As used in this section, the term -
(1) ''identification number'' means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) ''motor vehicle'' has the meaning given that term in section 32101 of title 49;
(3) ''motor vehicle demolisher'' means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;
(4) ''motor vehicle scrap processor'' means a person -
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;
but such term does not include any activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.
(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term ''tampers with'' includes covering a program decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.

Definitions of "Motor Vehicle" per Section 32101 of Title 49 referenced above:

(7) ''motor vehicle'' means a vehicle driven or drawn by mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways, but does not include a vehicle operated only on a rail line.

(10) ''passenger motor vehicle'' means a motor vehicle with
motive power designed to carry not more than 12 individuals, but does not include -
(A) a motorcycle; or
(B) a truck not designed primarily to carry its operator or passengers.

(11) ''passenger motor vehicle equipment'' means -
(A) a system, part, or component of a passenger motor vehicle as originally made;
(B) a similar part or component made or sold for replacement or improvement of a system, part, or component, or as an accessory or addition to a passenger motor vehicle; or
(C) a device made or sold for use in towing a passenger motor vehicle.

[Pantera]

Mark, Great homework there. Thanks for posting that.
I would recomend that anyone that does something like this go get a local photocopy of this actual document and keep a copy of it with the title of the car in question.

I still feel that anyone that removes a vin number off a dash/firewall and puts it on a different body, could be opening themselves up for a big problem if they are not carefull.

Tecnially you are not repairing a part but actually manfacturing a bogus car. Some states might confisistate that car. The car will not bear the hidden vin #'s that law enforcment expects to be on a vehicle. Only a registered auto manfacturer can affix a vin # to a car. When you totally replace a body and then swap a vin # off another car, you are treading on shakey ground.

Any of you that consider it please get the blessing and a letter of such from a local Law enforcment official just to protect your ass. I am sure that those that live in the rust belt will have a easier time with local officals as they are more aware of the need to do something like this. It could have a negative effect in some of the western states.

I know for a fact and from personal experience on a 84 vette that you will be prohibited from re-using the same vin plate on a car here in OK. They will make you use one of their state assigned vin #'s. They would not allow me to reinstall the original vin plate on the vette that I have. I was told that I would go to jail if I tried to do that.

I am sure that every state has their own slant on this subject. Any of you that plan on doing this, Please consult your local law enforcment authorities and be sure to get it in writing. This could come back and bite you in the butt years later after you sell the car. I still feel you can legally replace the entire car except for the firewall or body part that has the vin plate and the hidden vin on the firewall and you would not be doing anything illegal. Yes it is a big job, but better safe than sorry. JMHO....

Pantera

[Jeff H]

I still don't think you can remove the VIN and put it on a different body. But this points out that you can remove the VIN to repair the area where the VIN is. So if your dash was rusted out you could remove it and have a new dash panel welded in. A lof it comes down to documenting what you do for future referencing.

[Schonyenko2]

I think it's always best to overkill a vin removal, and the reinstallation. If we need to do this process, we take pictures, and have a member of the sheriffs department, or highway patrol there to witness it. That way there's never a question.

[Mark_C]

Again in the case of this crate body or whatever you want to call it, you are not swapping a VIN from one car to another. You can not remove the VIN and hidden VIN stamps from an existing vehicle and then try to use it as a "repair part", as it was once part of a motor vehicle. The "crate body" is not a "motor vehicle" nor was it part of an existing motor vehicle, never was, never will be until you affix your VIN to it, at which point it's no longer a repair part. Think of it as an extensive quarter panel, or floor panel. When you purchase this component (or components) you have to remove and replace (not remove and relocate) the VIN to facilitate the "repair". Granted this is probably pushing the envelope of the federal code quoted above, because the code could never have anticipated that someone would manufacture a replacement body for a car. If it really bothers the Feds they will amend the code to prevent this by specifying that you can not replace more than some percentage of a vehicles original body parts at one time before the car must be scrapped. That would prevent issues with the people who replaced parts 20 years ago due to rust or body damage, and now need to replace other parts to keep their cars running. But somehow I don't think they will change the code at all.

People seem to get their knickers in a twist over this subject because there seems to be some beleif that people are going to run out and built a 100 percent repro vehicle out of this crate body. I don't think that was ever the intention of Dynacorn, and they probably got screwed by the spin that Hot Rod Magazine put on the story when it was published.

How is using this single part any different than someone buying goodmark (or whoever's) quaters, trunk pan, inner and outer wheelwells, one peice floors, firewall parts, Dash panel, cowl panel etc. etc etc. (or worse cutting up another car to get those "original" peices) and welding them up in their garage. As soon as they get to the cowl panel, and dash panel they either have to cut out the hidden VINs and drill out the dash rivets to transfer them to the new "repair pieces", or they transfer their VIN plate and just go get a set of alphanumeric 5/16" (or so) stamp the old numbers into the new sheetmetal. Is it because it seems to be so easy to do, as opposed to piecing it together with individual peices?

How many people have replaced their dash panel because of rust at the base of the glass, 60, 70 percent of Camaro owners? I doubt more that 20 (the number, not a percentage) of them have taken pictures of the VIN transfer, or had any kind of law enforcement present when they did it.

[JTH74]

I visited CARS 3 weeks ago and spent a whole day there checking out there operation, and I was impressed! I asked all the relevant questions that may or may not pertain to this particular discussion, and I left feeling very confident that they are in no way going to try to pass these "crate camaros" off as a #'s matching Z/28 or anything else, when I asked the question on how it would be titled, Mr. Barber told me that it would be titled as a kit car or if you had a rusted out original car you could use the original title and VIN but it would be labeled as a re-body and there would be no part of the VIN # stamped under the heater on the firewall! CARS is going to do these cars in any stage you want from just a body to a complete turn key car, but they can't put on the "Camaro" emblem, they can drill the holes for you but can't install it. They had it worked out with Chevrolet to call it a Camaro but GM wanted $700 a car to put the name on it, so they decided against it to keep cost down for the consumer, and in my case I am faced with this, I have been negotiating with a guy for 6 months on a 100% #'s matching 69Z, tuxedo black, 62K miles(documented), only options are ZL-2 hood, and Rosewood pkg, needs paint and engine freshened, but its going to cost 25K to buy and then the other work, or buy one of the "crate camaros", do a pro-touring car, with a LS platform based engine, modern suspension technology, AC, 6-speed,good sound system and just lots of fun to drive, and I do really appreciate those out there that restore the #'s matching cars for the rest of us to appreciate, but if I can't drive it I would go nuts and who would want to drive a #'s matching JL-8 Z/28,COPO,Yenko,ZL-1, or Baldwin-Motion. The guys building these cars are all about the hobby, don't beat these guys up, they are producing an amazing product, and I would invite anyone that is close enough to check them out, its the people that buy these "crate camaros" and take them and do everything in there power to pass them off as #'s matching cars that are a threat to the hobby and the uninformed buyers pocketbook, just common crooks looking for a quick buck.

C.A.R.S.
www.classicautomotiverestoration.com (http://www.classicautomotiverestoration.com)
336-595-3900
8235 Nautical Point
Belews Creek, NC 27009
email: [email protected]

Contact these guys and they will clear up any questions or concerns you may have about these cars or drop by and see them if you are in the Winston-Salem, NC area.

[Mr. T]

[/ QUOTE ]its the people that buy these "crate camaros" and take them and do everything in there power to pass them off as #'s matching cars that are a threat to the hobby and the uninformed buyers pocketbook, just common crooks looking for a quick buck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if these 69 crate camaro's were never produced, then there wouldn't be a threat with people trying to pass them off as the real deal, a #'s matching car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[Canucklehead]

Well lets put it this way, if these guys don't do it someone else eventually will, you can't stop that. At least we have some guys trying to do it right and are doing there best to suppy the market with a crediable alternative to an original and are also doing their best to keep these cars as to just what there meant for. I think we should try to support them and there efforts, it could be worse.

[Xplantdad]

Hey Murray..


Happy Birthday!

[Belair62]

Another cake on fire ! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Canucklehead]

Thanks guys!