69 BB identification...."PICTURES ADDED"

[All American Racer]

Can any of you Nova specialists help me ID a 69 Nova? Zman and Nova Research have been big helps with PMs and pics but I have some questions that I would like to put up for your consideration. I know this: the heater hoses are correct, the engine sits off to the pass. side when I run a string from the center of the cowl to the center of the SS badges (I don't know how to properly check for that offset-I've been holding a straight edge up to my computer looking at various cars i.e. Bentz's '70) The engine/rear end are not original.The radiator support looks correct but someone has put a small block radiator in this car. I say this because the opening is way too big for the radiator. I also see welded nuts on the passenger side where the Harrison radiator would bolt on to. I don't see these welded nuts on the driver's side but there are holes that a self-tapping bolt would pass through in the proper location for a Harrison. The support does have welded nuts on the top for a small block radiator hold down but it also has all the proper holes for the BB center bracket and what appear to be push pin holes (from the pics I've seen of other correct BB's). I hear of the "enlarged" opening in the correct BB radiator supports and I've looked at pics but I haven't seen what a SB support looks like. It's hard to compare apples and oranges when you have no apples. If any of you 69 guys can give me a surefire way to tell without having the support out of the car I'd appreciate it. I have not had the car in the air yet. I can't tell you if the 4sp crossmember is the right one. I will let you know tonight. The engine (396) has a day 2 flex fan on it so no marks there. I'm sure I have forgotten some details and I'll post more as I learn. I will also post pics as soon as I move into the 90's and get a digital camera. Also, the interior is super nice although someone has replaced the original bench with correct buckets. This may have cost me a build sheet. I do have reservations about ripping the interior apart looking for it as it is so nice. Don't think the thought hasn't crossed my mind though http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif. Thanks for any help you guys may have to offer. Where were sights like this in the eighties when we all had nothing but time to work on our cars? Marc

[All American Racer]

I'm trying to post that scan here. No luck.

[WILMASBOYL78]

Sounds like you have the right rad support. What about the heater box, hoses in the middle? Check trans to see if vin is on the case. Build sheet will most likely be in the back seat in the springs or maybe in the foam. Other items to check: original dual exhaust hangers, power disc brakes, hd suspension, are any of the original components still on the newer engine: alternator, fuel pump, carb. Those paty #'s could help. Photos for us to review would be helpful. If you need help with other info contact me I have an original 69 L78 car for reference. Tom Williams

[All American Racer]

Hi Tom, I was hoping to hear from you. The "lots of L78 Novas" always caught my eye. Yes, the heater hose location is correct and power front discs are there and looking very original. I have studied many pics over the past week or so and I would have to say if someone "made" this car a big block they did it a long time ago. Careful inspection of the hardware on the heater core housing, radiator support, and engine mounts tells me the car hasn't recently been tampered with. I do want to research the radiator support further though. As I said in my earlier post, all I have to match it against are other pictures of BB supports. Sounds easy but pictures tend to be one dimensional and you can't always get the right angle you need. I could use 2 pieces of info. 1. A straight down shot of the top of the support showing the hole patterns for the center support and the flap and 2. Measurements for exactly how big the opening is for the radiator. I'm also concerned that the welded nuts for the SB radiator hold-down should not be there. On a positive note, the radiator is too small for the opening (I can put 3 fingers through the gap on the drivers side). Also, the passenger side has welded nuts for the Harrison flange mount and the driver's side has what appear to be holes for self-tapping bolts in the correct position for a flange mount radiator. Again, I don't know if this would be correct or not. The car looks great. It has a black vinyl top, dark blue paint, black interior, 4sp., Radial T/As on 5 spoke SS wheels. Very factory looking which is what I like. Exceptions to this are bolted on subframe connectors and old traction bars. I will post pics when I acquire the technology. I have read the FAQ section of this site and attachment directions all look Greek to me. I have posted plenty of scans on Ebay with no problem. i don't know what my problem is here. What the heck is Mozilla 4+? My computer is only 6 months old it should have all the bells and whistles I need. Tom, thanks for your interest in my Nova and any help you have to offer is greatly appreciated. By the way, how many is "Lots"? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Marc

[All American Racer]

Trying to post scan again. Sorry for the sideways scan and the poor quality but this is a copy of a copy of an invoice that was taped to the window of the car. I really don't know what it is or how legit it is. I hope you guys can read it. I can't find ANY info about a Charlie Collins Chevrolet. I have tried the Bayonne NJ dept. of commerce but they never got back to me http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Marc

[WILMASBOYL78]

Marc, sent you a PM. Tom

ps. are you a member of National Nostalgic Nova??? If not we need to get you signed up.TW

[All American Racer]

Thanks Tom, NNN member for 5 days now. I even asked for the box o' back issues! I didn't crawl underneath the car yesterday but when I do I'll let you know. Marc PS I never received a PM http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Allen]

For radiator core support comparison, click the link below.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/22130304/62321021tkLjTV

It sounds like you've got a neat car to work with.

Tom has pretty much listed the items to look for. One other thing to look at is the fuel line configuration... is it one single large 3/8? One large 3/8 and a smaller one next to it? One smaller one, like 5/16?

[All American Racer]

Allen, thanks for the pic. This was exactly what I was looking for. I don't know about the fuel lines. I haven't been under the car yet and it has an aftermarket fuel pump. I need to go under there and look for dual fuel lines (or bigger clips with one line), transmission xmember, and original exhaust hangars. Thanks for the pics and I'll keep you posted. Marc

[WILMASBOYL78]

Sent another PM. Glad to hear you joined the club,welcome!

TW http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I think you've answered your own questions if you've got the invoice for the car, sounds like the real deal to me. I wouldn't worry too much about the core support, it sounds like the BB version.

Check the rear frame rail for the dual exhaust plate and look above the rear at the floor boards to see if the car has the rear sway bar supports welded into the floors - only SS cars and Yenko Deuces got them.

Welcome to NNN - great club! You will have to bring the car to Super Chevy NH and to North Country Nova's annual 'Nova Day' Epping.

[All American Racer]

YDR, That attachment I posted is only a copy of what the seller told me was the original invoice. He claims to have bought the car with that copy included. If I had THE original invoice I would breathe easier. But nobody here has ever even heard of Charlie Collins Chevrolet. That's a whole bunch of sharp chevy guys for this place never to be heard of. I've considered trying to contact the original owner. I got that idea from another post here. I wish Chevy had something like PHS where they could (for a fee) take your VIN# and tell you what you have. As I told Wilmasboy, I love the car and will never regret buying it but it would be nice to know I've got a real BB SS before someone with some real knowledge puts my foot in my mouth. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Ok, that is a bummer, I thought you had the original copy of the invoice. I would definitely try to contact the original owner, or a family member. I had a co-worker walk in one day with a POP from a '70 Nova that her aunt bought new. She stumbled onto it and thought I might like it! You never know, keep diggin http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It certainly sounds like the real deal to me. Let us know about the trans crossmember and the fuel line.

I stumbled onto a guy in an alley changing a wheel on a '72 Nova yesterday. Inside the storage rental unit was a '70 L34, a/t, 12 bolt posi, w/ buckets, non-gauge console, 2 exterior moldings, F41, and a - - paint code! You never know what's hiding!

[lowmile]

Would the 69's have the sway bar mounts? Marc if you pull out the top of the back seat you may find the build sheet and on a 1969 it would have the engine code. m

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

'69 Novas didn't get the rear sway bars.

[WILMASBOYL78]

And you bought it , right??????...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[All American Racer]

Lowmile and YDR, Thanks for your continued interest in helping me solve this mystery. Here are the updated positives: BB radiator support(thanks allen for the great shots), correct engine mounting, correct BB heater hose location,and front power disc brakes. Now the negatives: one fuel line with no signs of ghosts of other lines ever having lived there. It appears to be a 3/8 line but I have to measure it. I also have to look on top of the tank to see if anything is capped off, SB transmission xmember holding up a 1970 M22 (Colvin's book for reference), nobody seems to have ever heard of the dealer listed on that "dealer invoice"(Collins Chevrolet/Bayonne NJ), no build sheet under back seat unless it's in the foam somewhere - it's not in the springs, front seats not original but are correct 69 buckets, engine is a non-original 396 w/a day 2 flexfan - cool fan but no ID help. Still to be researched - correct dual exhaust hangar mounts, shock tag ID - a longshot I feel, looking harder at that "invoice" to try and think of something I may have overlooked. Any pics you Nova guys have to offer are GREATLY appreciated. I have about a half dozen Nova/Chevy books but they all have their faults. Special thanks to all you guys with the PMs and emails. I couldn't have put this mystery in better hands. Digital pics will come as soon as I actually buy a digital camera (soon). sincerely, Marc

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Nope!

The owner has unrealistic opinions on value. This car was apart, only the rear and front sub were intact. Still cool to see a - - paint code.

One interesting thing about this car is that it had the black out treatment on the inside of the door frame around the door glass as we've seen on medium and light colored '69 Novas. Unusual to see that on a '70, but maybe the - - paint code included the blackout feature as well.

The color looked to me like a Cadillac color, Cinnamon Firemist Poly.

http://autocolorlibrary.com/cgi-bin/search/searchpic.pl?1970-cadillac-pg01.jpg

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

These pics were taken b4 I bought this BB car, here's the core support - note the big opening and the single 3/8's fuel line usually indicating the L78 version of the BB.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Here is the BB 4speed crossmember opening, rectangular with an angled corner.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

BB rad support nuts for the radiator

[Mr70]

Very good Detailed pix M. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Then, when it's all finished it will look something like this one!!

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Or maybe this one!

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

2nd view

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Cool plate that Scott would like to have!!

[All American Racer]

YDR, it just might - I'm a green freak. My first car was a 73SS Nova that was Frost Green. A Greek guy named Gus painted the car and when I picked it up he told me it was Forest Green. I was 19 and never questioned it until just recently I saw a picture of a 73SS Nova the same color. The caption said it was Frost Green. It was then I realized the guy had such a heavy accent he was trying to say Frost but it sounded like Forest. I loved the color but I wonder how many people over the years rolled their eyes when I said it was Forest Green? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[All American Racer]

Marlin, I didn't realize that the single 3/8 fuel line meant it was a 375hp from the factory. I've been bumming since Sunday because I thought all BB's had to have 2 fuel lines. Now the biggest remaining item is why does it have a small block transmission xmember and I may have some insight. Without a doubt the radiator support is a big block. But, it has a small block radiator in it. I noticed when I bought the car the radiator was much too small for the opening in the support - 2 or 3 inches small with the gap being on the driver's side. Anyway, my hunch is that someone took the transmission and radiator out of a 70 Chevelle and put it in my car. I need to get a VIN# off the tranny to see if it matches up to my thoughts. Any special numbers I can use to ID the radiator (I'm going to check Colvin's book anyhow. So the big question remains - why a SB transmission xmember? YDR, super nice cars. Is that second one forest green? I'm dying to see all of Todd's lined up especially with lowmiles old car in there!

[scott s]

yes marlin that plate would look good on my front bumper..beautiful car also..

[Nova Research Project]

I can id the radiator if it still has the tag on it. If it does not have the tag get the two large embossed letters off of the right and left tank. If there are no embossed letters it is probably an aftermarket radiator.

Greg

[All American Racer]

Guys, my girl came home today with a digital camera. As soon as I figure out how to use it I'll post the pics I promised. Thank you guys very much for helping me verify the car as an original big block car. I'll keep looking for a build sheet but my hopes are slim. The front end needs a rebuild desperately. I have about 3 quarters of a turn of freeplay in the wheel and the control arm bushings look like terrible. I almost started a new thread for my next question but I'll give it a shot here. Who to buy parts from? I would like to support NNN as much as possible but they only had about half of the list I compiled. I would like to hear what you folks have to say about other vendors. I have a Year One catalog but man aren't they expensive! Is there truth to the saying "you get what you pay for" in this case? One manual I want goes for $41.95 at Year One - $25.00 at NNN. Looks like the same one to me. Any thoughts? Marc

[Belair62]

Ron Normann at McHenry Classic Car Parts....very knowledgeable...815-648-1700...he's a little cranky on Mondays !!! (sorry Ron) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Schonyenko2]

Ron is very good. We also get a lot of front end parts from PST. They have a super kit thay has just about everything you'll need in original material, or poly graphite. S.

[All American Racer]

I've seen the polygraphite kits but I am not familiar with them. I guess in my mind anything but rubber would make the ride harsher. For instance, my old 73 had rubber body mounts and my buddy's 73 had urethane bushings. When I rode in his car it seemed like I could feel every bump in the road go right up my back. This was 1986 and I'm sure technology has changed a bit but this is why I'm hesitant to use anything but rubber. Any thoughts on polygraphite guys? Marc

[lzdick]

Belair,
You are both right and wrong. Right: Ron Normann at M.C.C.P. is a very knowledgeable and helpful guy. Wrong: Monday is officially "happy day" around the shop. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif You just need to give him a buzz and he'll probably tell you exactly how happy he is to hear from you. You go..."Mini-Mayor". http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[All American Racer]

I took some pictures of the car tonight but I can't post them because the smallest one is 220KB. 100000 bytes is the max allowed here. I'm new to this digital camera. What do I need to do to reduce the bytes? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Marc

[Xplantdad]

go to Easy Thumbnails (http://www.fookes.com/ezthumbs/?Easy%20Thumbnails=2600) and download the free software.

You can configure how many "bytes" that you want your pictures to be, and also what dimensions. I think that the moderators on this board would like them to be scaled to no more that 640x480? I scale mine to 500x500.

Hope this helps. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Bruce

[Belair62]

That is really east software too...I use it now myself...

[Eddie M.]

I went though this with Rob on my pics to. see if you can resize them on your camara then download it,it worked for me anyway
Eddie

[Nova Research Project]

Send them to me and I can resize them and post them at Chevynova.org too.

Greg

[All American Racer]

Greg, I'm going to try the software first. If that doesn't work, I'll take you up on that offer. The pics aren't the best. I need to practice with the camera. Marc

[Nova Research Project]

All American Racer;

Here you go. Since there were 20 pictures I created a page for them here: 69 Big Block Pictures (http://www.chevynova.org/MarcGriffin/Page1.html)

Greg

[All American Racer]

Big thanks to Greg Roberts for helping me post pics of my car. Please rip it up guys. I need to know for sure if my car is a BB/4sp./SS. I believe it is a factory BB car. Please refer to previous posts in this thread for info. on that subject. SS/4sp. I don't know. I wanted to buy Charlie's brown BB but I was going through the AAR fiasco and missed out. I really like my car and knowing it's genuine would just be an added bonus. It's a driver. I paid 16,500 for it. My budget for a car was 15-20K. I found that to be a tough range to shop in because you can buy more than a parts car but not enough for a show car. This car was in the middle of my range and I feel it's a sharp driver. I hope you all agree. The pics shown are of the car as I bought it. My first job is to rebuild the front end. The control arm bushings are shot and the steering wheel has all kinds of freeplay. The car won't see a license plate until I know it's safe for my family. Funny how priorities change as time goes by. Marc

[Eddie M.]

Marc...Either way I think its a pretty cool nova.
I've never really looked at a big block or a copo one for that matter. would the shifter on this car be the factory shifter?

[All American Racer]

No, it's a Hurst. The guy I bought it from only bought it to resell it. He (and I) feel the car was restified back in the eighties. Nothing is original on the drivetrain. I'd really like to hear some opinions about the way the shifter looks in relation to the "hump". My 73 (which I know was original 4sp)had a "boxed" hole from the factory. I don't see this on the 69 but I'm not sure if it was ever there. Marc

[Eddie M.]

I like the way that shifter looks sitting on the side of the hump even if its not right.

[Zman]

HI Marc,
It looks to me like you have a legit 69 BB SS 4 Spd. car! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I would guess that it was hit in the front at one time, as the front bumper looks like 71-2, and the top plate on the radiator support is wrong. (SB). Also, it looks like it could be a BB radiator, and the opening looks a little Extra large. Could be a modified SB radiator support?
Shifter looks like the correct location, however the boot, and retaining ring appear to have been changed.
BB Heater box sure looks original, and the motor looks like it is sitting correctly as well.
Without docs., of course we can't be 100% positive, but I would feel pretty confident that it is a real BB SS.
Very Nice! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[All American Racer]

Thanks Zman, I was concerned about the shifter because it doesn't have the boxed out look like a 73 (which I owned earlier) but looking at other correct cars I'd say it matches up fine with the exception of the trim ring as you said. Now I have to go look at the bumper. I'm kind of embarrased that someone else pointed that out to me. I've been looking for little details so much I overlooked something obvious. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Marc

[All American Racer]

I bumped this up for invoice viewing. Marc