Is this a War or not? Something to think about?

[Pantera]

I found this thought provking to say the least.


----- Original Message -----

This is not very long, and very informative. You have to read the catalogue of events in this brief piece. Then, ask yourself how anyone can take the position that all we have to do is bring our troops home from Iraq, sit back, reset the snooze alarm, go back to sleep, and no one will ever bother us again. In case you missed it, World War III began in November 1979... That alarm has been ringing for years.



US Navy Captain Ouimette is the Executive Officer at Naval Air Station, Pensacola, Florida. Here is a copy of the speech he gave last month. It is an accurate account of why we are in so much trouble today and why this action is so necessary.



AMERICA NEEDS TO WAKE UP!



That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 (When more than 3,000 Americans were killed -AD) and maybe it was, but I think it should have been "Get Out of Bed!" In fact, I think the alarm clock has-been buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the snooze button and roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.



It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world’s most powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this sovereign U. S. embassy set the stage for events to follow for the next 25 years.



America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Vietnam experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then, President Carter, had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism.



America's military had been decimated and down sized/right sized since the end of the Vietnam War. A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was doomed from the start.



Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil continued.



In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven into the US Embassy compound in Beirut When it explodes, it kills 63people. The alarm went off again and America hit the Snooze Button once more.



Then just six short months later a large truck heavily laden down with over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut and 241 US servicemen are killed. America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.



Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait, and America continues her slumber.



The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the gate of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept.



Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe. In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.



Then in August a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed and the snooze alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US interests are continually attacked.



Fifty-nine days later a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked and we watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed.



The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988, killing 259.



Clinton treated these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still trying to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war.



The wake up alarm is getting louder and louder.



The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America. In January 1993,two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.



The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured. Still this is a crime and not an act of war? The Snooze alarm is depressed again.



Then in November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women.



A few months later in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500. The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively.



They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania... These attacks were planned with precision. They kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.



The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep.



And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong they are. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep.



In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every high official in government over what they knew and what they didn't know. But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA or on the National Security Council to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979.



The President is right on when he says we are engaged in a war. I think we have been in a war for the past 25 years and it will continue until we as a people decide enough is enough. America needs to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now. America has been changed forever... We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to keep hitting the snooze button again and again and roll over and go back to sleep.



After the attack on Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto said "... it seems all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant." This is the message we need to disseminate to terrorists around the world.



Support Our Troops and support President Bush for having the courage, political or militarily, to address what so many who preceded him didn’t have the backbone to do both Democrat and Republican. This is not apolitical thing to be hashed over in an election year this is an AMERICAN thing. This is about our Freedom and the Freedom of our children in years to come.

[396L35]

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[WILMASBOYL78]

Right on the money. If Carter had acted decisively 25 years ago we would be in a different movie today. Take the battle to those who would eliminate our way of life. Better to fight them in the desert than on the streets of our home towns. Freedom is not free you have to pay for it, and sometimes that means people die. For that I am truly sad and my heart goes out to the families who have made the ultimate sacrifice. God bless our troops! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Charley Lillard]

It makes me wonder what it is that makes them hate us so much. Their acts are based on a very deep hatred. We learned in Vietnam that ways of war have changed and it is very hard to even find the enemy. If we ever truly want it to end I think we need to find out why we are hated so much and see if there is something we can do to end that hatred. It only takes a couple pissed off terrorists to do the damage, so defeating a country still won't solve things.

[Belair62]

Probably because we have always supported Israel...if I were the Pres I would just call up Israel and ask them to bring me Bin ladens head...I bet it would be UPS'ed within 24hrs.

[tom406]

The history is compelling, and true enough-we fall into complacency easily. If we were guiding our military with clear focus through Afghanistan, trying to find Bin Laden, fighting new battles as we came to unfriendly borders, I would agree with you.

But we're not. We've taken on a poorly conceived, minimally planned and funded war to Iraq. Most high school social studies teachers knew that Saddam was true only to Saddam, and held no real appeal or support for Muslim zealots. He was a threat to his people to be sure, and our country was largely responsible for putting him into power, but this was the wrong time to put him to bed.

Bush seems like a nice enough guy, and his performance directly following 9/11 was truly grand. But he likes to see the world in simple terms, and he's surrounded himself with arrogant, self righteous vampires.

As for the future of my children, I worry just as much about the legacy of this administration on them as I do the Muslim fundamentalist movement. All this government secrecy, holding people for YEARS without trial, or even access to lawyers or family members is unbelievable to me. Mostly I worry about an endless stream of half a$$ed military actions across the Middle East for the next 20 years which will deplete our military to the point where they will undoubtedly be forced to draft my kids to try and keep the oil flowing.

Kerry's no ideal candidate, but everyone who appears to be under him is an improvement in my mind. I don't see a good outcome with the current administration, and I feel we need to try something different, so I'll be voting accordingly. I hope others do too.....

[Norm reynolds]

Right on Tom This is a different can of war and you cannot win with ground troops
And yes we went to war with the wrong people it seem that Bush forgot about Bin laden
As Charley said defeating them will not solve a thing you would think we learned form Vietnam I have never voted in my life but I will this year Kerry is not my ideal chose but if feel Bush has totally made a mess of things Its sad to think that he thinks he is wining the war on terror when things in Iraq is getting worse Iraq is starting to look more like Vietnam all over again God help us if Bush is aloud four more years
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[Salvatore]

I agree Belair! We have stopped Israel on many occasions from settling the Middle East years ago. I don't always approve of their tactics, but you have to get it done. It just never seems to end. I have a son who was in Germany for 8 mths. about a year ago. They don't like us either. Hopefully they will leave his company alone for now. Sam

[Jeff H]

Yup, it's all about hatred. We need to find out what makes these people hate us so much. But most of these people cannot be reasoned with so we also have to learn how to deal with them. I don't think anyone has the real answer at this point in time.

[firstgenaddict]

We are not in a popularity contest with the rest of the world. We essentially gave up our sovereignty when we allowed the UN to do all of our negotiations. They put into place all kinds of sanctions but when they are violated they do nothing. It was about time someone (Bush) stepped in and put their foot down. Everytime we have backed down we have been pushed back even further. Bullies (terrorists) only understand one thing "A good ole' fashioned Asswhippin"
They thought that since we have backed down for the last 25 years we would back down again ... they got a hell of a lot more than they bargained for. Do you think Libya gave up their nuke program because we pacified the terrorists? No they gave it up because they realized that they were probably on the short list of countries to be ridded of their leaders.

[427TJ]

One of the main reasons bin Laden hates us because we kept our troops in Saudi Arabia after the Gulf War. Part of the deal to push Saddam out of Kuwait in '91 was that once the mission was accomplished, U.S. and NATO troops would redeploy out of the Holy Land (Saudi Arabia). They see us as infidels desecrating the Holy Land. The more radical among them, especially the very strict Wahabbi sect of Islam, which is growing in number and strength and potentially threatens the Saudi royal family's rule, is very supportive of Al Queda and bin Laden. They see bin Laden as their hero in part because he bloodied America's nose so dramatically on 9/11 but also because he shares their strict interpretation of the Koran.

It's too simple to say they hate us because of our freedom. They hate us because we are allied so closely with Israel and because we have kept the Arabs down for so long as we pump out ("steal") their oil, but it's mainly religious hatred.

The 1973-74 OPEC oil embargo occurred after the U.S. threw its support behind Israel during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war. Arabs were suspicious of the West long before that but Israel's sweeping victory in the 1973 war, with help from American weaponry, was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. The Saudi royals, who are in a very difficult position, made a deal with the Islamic radicals (so did Saddam) that basically said that if the radicals left the royals alone, then the radicals would be left alone, within Saudi Arabia anyway. Bin Laden has had long-standing differences with the royal family even though they have tolerated each other in the past. After the '91 war and the permanent basing of American and NATO troops in Saudi Arabia, bin Laden has broken the 'agreement' with the royals and now names them as an enemy of Islam too. This is not good.

Bin Laden knew long before 9/11 that America has been angry about rising oil prices for decades. He knows damn well that we've had plans since at least the 1970s to invade and take "our oil" from the Saudis. Because bin Laden and Al Queda are fighting a long-term religious war, as they see it, they knew that it was inevitable that someday America would come to the Holy Land to take over the oil fields. (Again, that's how they see it.) 9/11 was Al Queda's and bin Laden's first major salvo in this new religious war. Yes, it's appropriate to look at it as a kind of 'Pearl Harbor' attack. Bin Laden knew that if he attacked America successfully, which he did on 9/11, that America would have to respond with a major force. Bin Laden said long before 9/11 that America wants to invade and occupy a Muslim country and take over the oil fields and that's what we've done in Iraq.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has called the war in Iraq a "long, hard slog." He said that over a year ago. The Iraq war is similar to Vietnam in that we are fighting people who are very serious about defending their land and pushing out the invaders. The difference is that there was no oil under Vietnam. There's LOTS of oil underneath Iraq, the second-largest oil fields after Saudi Arabia. U.S. involvement in Vietnam lasted from about 1961 until 1975. U.S. involvement in Iraq, now that we're in it for the long haul, will go on until the last drop of oil is pumped out. That could take 50 more years.

I have a six year-old daughter and a four year-old son. Many of you have sons and daughters in uniform. I flew 38 combat missions as a USAF pilot in the '91 war and I've spent LOTS of time in Saudi Arabia. (My perception was that they only like us when we're spending money on rugs and souveniers. But there's places in America where people are that way...) We are going to be involved over there from now on, until the oil is all gone, period. It doesn't matter if it's Bush, Kerry, or Peter Pan in the White House, we're there for more than the foreseeable future because no president, not even Al Gore, could pull-out now. There will be a military draft, count on it. Re-starting the draft is probably going to be political suicide for a president Bush, Kerry, or Pan. But, once the deferment, etc., loopholes are worked into a military draft bill then it will be passed. Since the oil is forecast to last at least another 50 years then it's almost a given that my son will have to go. That's okay, but it's something to think about. I served and he and my daughter will probably want to serve too. Oil is America's number one national interest and after 9/11 we've gotten very serious about defending our national interest.

Last thought on all of this. Iran is working feverishly toward developing a nuclear capability and so is North Korea. It is a fact that America only invades countries that do not have nuclear weapons and that's one reason why so many countries want nukes. (The other reason is that they want to put their neighbors on notice not to try anything.) If Saddam had nukes, and it's a good thing that his ambition was halted, we'd be in a hell of a tight spot. Factor in Israel's assertion that they WILL NOT TOLERATE an Iranian nuclear capability (think of the religious aspect here) and it's not hard to imagine a MAJOR war breaking out in the middle east. I think America will tolerate a North Korean nuclear capability because invasion is just not plausible--there's a million of them in uniform and they could overrun South Korea in a matter of days, if not hours. I think we will probably resort to relying on Chinese help (probably in secret) to keep North Korea in check. Now that China is our business partner they will want to keep that business relationship with us healthy, at least for the next decade, until they have copied/stolen our manufacturing processes and can do it alone. (See: out-sourcing.) If the Israelis mount a pre-emptive attack on Iranian nuclear capability then it's fair to say that a major war is going to follow. Remember that it was Israel that stopped Saddam's first attempt at developing nuclear capability in 1982 when Israel launched a successful suprise attack with F-15s and F-16s. (Both types of warplanes are made in America. See what I mean?)

We are definately in for a long, hard slog. We are serious but so are the Islamic religious fundamentalist insurgents. They will not fight conventionally, they will fight using only terrorist tactics. Roadside bombs, kidnappings, beheadings, etc. are the way it's going to be. I hope I am wrong, but we're probably going to have to kill almost all of them, terrorists or not, if we have any chance of prevailing. That means that a lot of our kids are going to be killed as well. As long as there's oil we're in the fight and so are they.

So yes, this is definately a war. Yes, it is definately something to think about. Say a prayer for our kids in uniform, those in uniform today and those who are going to be in uniform in the coming years.

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[Belair62]

Some very sobering thoughts.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[whitetop]

[ QUOTE ]
Bullies (terrorists) only understand one thing "A good ole' fashioned Asswhippin"


[/ QUOTE ]

It took blasting about 200,000 Japs with nukes, to pacify a nation of about 50 million.

Muslims, with 1.4 billion at present, would (by application of the same ratio) require 5.6 million dead.

Time is wasting, as we speak. As you can see I'm not PC. I'm sorry I don't trust them. Maybe I would if I saw an ounce of outrage by American Muslims of Muslim terrorists acts butI don't.

[427TJ]

I hear you, but a major difference between the Japanese in WWII and modern Islamic fundamentalists is that the war with Japan was not religious, it was basically economic. Japan sought to extend it's control over natural resources and attacked us so as to keep us from stopping them. As we know, Pearl Harbor ultimately backfired on Japan and we did stop them in the end.

Yes, it is very telling that both the U.S. and European Muslim community isn't more vocal in their resistance to Islamic fundamentalist terrorism. Probably because they know they'll get blown up by a suicide/homicide bomber if they speak too loudly. Yes, a few of them speak out but in guarded terms. Just as we Americans were all brothers as the WTC fell on 9/11, they are all brothers too.

I am very suspect as to how all this plays out, especially given that we are so closely allied both politically and economically with the Saudi royals as well as the Israelis. It seems like a huge house of cards to me.

[Norm reynolds]

One thing for shore Americans WILL not tolerate a daft after the Vietnam mess I will NEVER FORGET
I am not willing and it would be over my dead body that my daughter would serve after today’s beheading
This is the final straw either we pull out and forget it or pull out and nuke them all sorry but do not feel sorry for the people of Iraq they know who the terrorist are and they do nothing so my take is they are as much at fault There will never be peace in Iraq so just nuke them and be over with it I am just sick and tied of this whole mess

[Schonyenko2]

427TJ, very good historical perspective.

[Mr70]

Today I have a 13 year old niece & nephew.I would imagine in 5 years,they will be called into duty.I think this War will be going on for aloooong time,but every night I Pray I am wrong. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Pantera]

I wish it was just that easy but we could not live with ourselves if we did that.

Since we are just pipe dreaming here = I wish we could adapt their logic and go after each one of them indivualy. I mean destroy each one of them and their families. Hunt them down like a dog.

They have no fear of death. in fact it is a honor to die for the cause. BUT if we would slaugher each and every one of their children, wives, mothers, father, and sisters and everyone else related to them. We would get their attention. That is the one thing that they do revere and we would strike fear into the hearts of those on the fence that might be drawn into the battle by them. Not to mention there would be less trainees for them to recruit to murder our childre and friends.

Ohhhh well. Back to the civilized world. Frustration vented.....

Sigh.......


Pantera

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
BUT if we would slaugher each and every one of their children, wives, mothers, father, and sisters and everyone else related to them. We would get their attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember in the movie "The Godfather" where young Michael Corleone (Al Pacino) is walking through a village in Sicily with his bodyguards? He sees only a few women and children hurredly doing their daily tasks and asks, "Where are all the men?" One of the bodyguards answers, "They have all been killed in the vendettas." That's how the Sicilian Mafia operated, they had to kill all the men in order to feel secure against retribution. In another "Godfather" scene Vito (Robert DeNiro), the head of the Corleone family, takes his family back to Sicily. While he's there he pays a visit to the old Mafia Don who had killed Vito's father. Years earlier, the Don had then summoned young Vito and his mother to be killed so as to keep them from taking revenge on the old Don someday. The Don killed Vito's mother but Vito escaped death that day by running away and had come back as a man to avenge his mother's brutal killing. He pays his respects to the old Don and then pulls out a large knife and guts him. Vito says to the Don as he's cutting him open, "This is for my mother." That's why we can't possibly kill all of them and hope it will end. Nobody ever forgets.

The Israeli-Palestinian (Jews vs. Arabs) conflict has been going on for basically 2000 years. Just as we say, "Never forget 9/11," they say, "Never forget" things that happened 2000 years ago and in every generation since. That's just what humans do. We never forget wrongdoing, unfair treatment, brutal killings, and on and on.

Hell, both Republicans and Democrats say, "Never forget the 2000 election!"

One very important thing worth understanding is what America means to the people of every other country on earth. It is our moral example---that America stands for things that the rest of the world wants for itself. Not just big cars and air conditioned homes, but what symbols like the Constitution and the Statue of Liberty stand for. Yes, freedom is part of it, but it is religious freedom, freedom from tyranny and opression, freedom to think and talk and travel without fear of repraisal, freedom to read what we want, free and open elections, freedom of the press, and the list goes on.

Of course, we know there are problems with some of those freedoms and how we percieve them, but I think you get my drift.

What will probably be the outcome of the post-9/11 world is that America will continue to lose credibility in the Muslim world. I know that we invaded Iraq to plant the seeds of Democracy, but just as in farm crops, sometimes the soil just is not fertile and the seeds can't flourish and grow. Maybe Democracy can take hold in the Middle East, but I doubt it. There's a lot of pissed-off young men over there (insurgents, etc.) and as Pantera said, they see death as the road to Eternal Paradise. That's why I said that we will have to kill almost all of them, a-la the Sicilian Mafia's example, if we are to prevail.

Let's say we kill 90% of all Muslims on earth. What will other countries then think? "We're next!" is what they'll think. We have to respond to terrorists. We have to kill them, more of them than us, LOTS more of them. But it won't stop terrorism. It may subside for a few years, or perhaps decades, but it will always be a tactic against a larger, more powerful force.

"The War on Terror" is really a poor choice of words. It works as a sound bite on the evening news but its true meaning can never be achieved---how do we know when we've won? Terrorism may subside and politicians may declare "victory," but there will still be snakes out there in the grass and we just can't kill all of them. Just look at "The War on Drugs." How's that war going? Our police, FBI, DEA and other law-enforcement agencies fight the good fight day after day, year after year, decade after decade, and you can still get any illegal drug you want just a short drive (or walk) from your home. Or, just ask your teenage kid to get some at their school. Remember the mid-80s song "Smuggler's Blues" by Glen Frey? One line goes, "You ask any DEA man, he'll tell you there's nothing we can do." This isn't to say that we need to stop fighting. On the contrary, we need to keep on fighting and fighting and fighting, knowing, however, that such wars are probably forever ongoing.

Bin Laden has said that this latest chapter in the great jihad may take "100 years." He preaches that time is on their side. They don't have elections every four years either. The upside is that bin Laden's words and actions have brought America together (for the most part). The downside is that bin Laden's words and actions have brought the Muslim world together (for the most part) as well.

I'm home sick with a cold all week, kids are in school, wife's working, and that's why I have so much time to talk about this stuff. I'd much rather listen to Charlie outline the differences between a '69 Camaro Z/28 with power disc brakes vs. a JL8 car's setup. That's MUCH more interesting.

Okay Charlie, on that note, lead us back from the abyss and into the garage.

[Kim_Howie]

Tom, Check Kerry's voting record before you bash Bush. Anybody that votes it's OK !! to spit on the the Flag. I have a problem with........................... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[RYCKR69]

A Quote by Thomas Jefferson
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

[Kim_Howie]

GREAT SAYING http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Chris396]

It's only a matter of time before someone detonates a nuclear weapon and takes out a city or more in America before we will really get serious. That is the way people are. We wait until disaster strikes and then run around saying, "why did this happen? Why didn't we do anything?”

[GOAT72]

[ QUOTE ]

We've taken on a poorly conceived, minimally planned and funded war to Iraq. Most high school social studies teachers knew that Saddam was true only to Saddam, and held no real appeal or support for Muslim zealots. He was a threat to his people to be sure, and our country was largely responsible for putting him into power, but this was the wrong time to put him to bed.


[/ QUOTE ]

Tom's statement says it all. (IMHO)
Saddam was out for Saddam.
As brutal a dictator he was, I think we are seeing, first hand, the reasons he ruled like he did.
He had to squash insurgents and instill fear into the masses.
Why?
Because it's the only thing they understand.

Do you think we should continue this madness of sending our bright young guys into towns and going door-to-door?
We could do this for decades and they'd still be killing our kids. Remember that N/ Vietnam fought the French for years before we showed-up. Small countries have figured out that we will back off if we sustain enough losses over a long term war in which it's hard for us to identify the true enemy.

I shudder to think of what a young US Marine goes through in the course of his/her day when EVERY person on the street is his/her potential killer.

We should train their security forces, help them with their Jan. elections and then high-tail it outa there forever!
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I'm one of those who feels it's time to lock-down our borders and start pulling our troops off foreign soil. I also believe we need to trim our foreign aid WAY down. Canada seems to be doing very well (except for the border situation). I say we follow that philosophy.

N. Korea wants us out, Germany wants us gone. There are many others. Let's give 'em what they want and pull out. Bring our kids home and make it REAL hard to get into the US.

Just my $.02

Mac

[Pantera]

[ QUOTE ]
N. Korea wants us out, Germany wants us gone. There are many others. Let's give 'em what they want and pull out. Bring our kids home and make it REAL hard to get into the US.

Just my $.02

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree with that whole heartly. I would like to ad one thought to this and there are some great thoughts from you guys on this subject.

I agree we will never see a end of this type of war. The best and only chance we have is education and to set an example of freedom for all to see. We do a pretty good job so far of showing what freedom really is. If we can stay long enough in Irag for the little people there to get a first hand view of freedom in action then perhaps it will do the same as it did in this country and they will seek it for themselves. The best teacher of anything is by example and offering your hand out to those that are down.

Bush or Kerry? I think that they are just men and as such will do what they think best. Will we agree with what they do? Usually not and then sometimes we do. Think back and you will see that it has always been the same with every president. I have been watching them for about 50 years now and nobody ever seems to agree with what the pres does. All we can hope for is one that does something postive. I like a man that does what he thinks will work. The mark of a real man is one that admidts it and trys to correct what he did wrong.

John F Kennedy was just running when I was old enough to start to understand what the process was. Since then we have loved some of them and hated the rest. such is life. I even liked Nixion. But at least he DID something good for all mankind. So this year will be the hardest election for me. I like each of them. I really do.


I would rather go back to searching out the owner of my '69 vette when it was new. So best of luck to them both. I am sure the world will continue tomorrow. Just wait and see..!