1969 Z11 Camaro Convertible Pace Car Wrecked Shell

[69LM1]

Wrecked Z11 Pace Car (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39405&item=4501212 324&rd=1)

Not to bring up a sore subject, but this is
just the type of scenerio that was being discussed about the "kit" cars just out. I wonder if some of you guys who track vins could get the partial for the records to see if this turns up again somewhere.

[TimG]

I had a 12,000 mile Pace Car that ended up in worse shape than this one. I had it in storage and the whole warehouse caught fire in 1992. It cooked for four hours and almost nothing on the car survived the intense heat. State Farm was very fair on the settlement and they had no interest in all of the paperwork on the car. I still have everything from the window sticker to three body brodcast sheets, POP, original keys, ect.....
The car number is 640491 and it is a Norwood car, if anyone ever sees it.

[Mark_C]

Not exactly, because your not going to get the VIN plate, or the cowl tag with this hunk of steel. If you were going to build one off this body you'd be better off saving the 75 buck he wants for this and putting it toward a fake trim tag or VIN.

The VIN is (was) 124679N637406. It was a 4spd Car with manual steering, probably an L48, manual top, and no floor console. Pretty much as basic a Z11 as you could buy. It was made 61 VINs after mine which makes it an 04L build, and is actually 4 cars before the last recorded (by GM) Camaro built in April.

The VIN is already noted so if by some miracle it returns from the dead people will know.

[resto4u]

If someone does buy it they could still fake a car. Buy it just for the hidden vin#s to be grafted on a donor or new body. Get a fake trim tag and get a vin# or close to actual. The sad thing is that many buyers would not even think of comparing the hidden vin# with the title. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif And i have seen state issued vin tags that use the original vin#, by having a cop look at the hidden vins. Roger

[Mark_C]

Think I'd spend my money on a set of 3/16" number and letter stamps from Harbor Freight or someplace similar for about 20 bucks and put my own VIN number on the body tub, that would match the VIN I already had a title for. No one pays any attention to the fonts used in the hidden VIN stamps like they do on an engine pad, so why bother with the headache of moving this hunk of scrap metal from one place to another just for a couple of 3" long peices of sheetmetal. Now everyone knows the VIN of a scrapped (maybe since we don't know what happened to the original VIN or cowl tag) Z11 they can start fabricating now.

[zgator]

Don't know what happened to my post but I have seen an ad for the 69 vert in a mag. and I didn't see the 1/4 panel lover indents.Maybe they had to make some changes to satisfy GM http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Mark_C]

Seems to be a moot point for now:

http://www.dynacorn.com/site/04home/home.html


Click on Classic Bodies Inc icon. The project seems to be on hold for now. Wonder if GM brought out some heavy hitting lawyers, or if there was some problem with the bodies themselves. Either way no ones building fake Z11's for now, unless they do it the old fashioned way.

[resto4u]

Dynacorn was going to have a body at sema in vegas. Anyone there seen if it was there? Roger

[Steve Shauger]

I believe that is where they may have been asked (I assume GM) to put their project on hold in a legal manner.

[mrrec]

I'm sure there will be much talk of these bodies. Chevrolet will have to license them and assign VINs (extremely unlikely!) for them to be Chev products. The transfering of VIN numbers (illegal, of course) is the only way (even if illegitimately) you could call one of these new tubs a 1969 Chevrolet Camaro. Otherwise, it is going to be assigned a VIN by your state and, at least in Iowa, titled as a "2004 reconstructed". I did it in '76 with a Ford T.

There are ways to get title as a 69 Chev again but it requires bonding and the dishonest people that graft VINs and lie probably aren't going to want to stand up this tall.

Dave

[Canucklehead]

I heard that Unique Performance (the ones that build the revined Shelbys) is going to start making rebodied e-type chryslers. The way they do the shelbys is to take a real mustang and redo it into a Elanor shelby and ford lets them revin it as a Shelby 500E. I wonder if they are going to do the same with the E-bodys?

[Charley Lillard]

I was told that the maker of the Camaro body was served with a cease and desist order by GM. Might just be a rumor but that is what I was told. I saw the car at SEMA. Neither door was closed all the way and each door panel was peeling the pinch weld molding off as the door tried to close. Here is the vin on the dash..cute.

[Bill Howell]

I noticed last week that the website for the crate bodies states that the project is on hold so Charlie you may be correct. I know that whatever happens there will be vin issues when these things hit the streets. State inspections will probably be real interesting.I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.That website is dynacorn.com if anyone needs it.

[Mark_C]

At least they are using the correct Rosette style rivets to hold their VIN on. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[resto4u]

On the year one website, it says each body come with a certificate of certified welds and certificate of inspection from D.O.T http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif Roger

[rpoz11]

Care to take a guess at what they might have invested into this venture; The loss down the road, and eventual legal proceedings that may occur from all of this? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif...I felt it to be a very sad story in the History of the Camaro to have something like this arise from the outsoursing(SP) evolving in todays hobby! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[Charley Lillard]

I don't have a problem with a Camaro body being built. We need the cars, just like 32 Fords and other kits. Any legal arguements are gonna be about money. Shelby sues any Cobra replica builder that uses the Cobra name. You wouldn't want me cutting up a real pace car to make a Pro-touring car would you ?

[rpoz11]

No, and I think the direction this thread was intended for was on the interchanging of VIN/Trim Tags to the new reproduction shells...No? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Mark_C]

It's not illegal

USC 18 Section 511 (http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+367+0++%28%29%20 %20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%2 0%28USC%20w%2F10%20%28511%29%29%3ACITE%%2020%20%20 %20%20%20%20%20%20)

CITE-

18 USC Sec. 511 01/06/03

-EXPCITE-

TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I - CRIMES

CHAPTER 25 - COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY
Here it is for those not wanting to click the link above.

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

-STATUTE-

(a) A person who -

(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part;

or

(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years,
or both.

(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).

(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are -

(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;

(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;

(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;

and

(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by -

(i) the owner or his authorized agent;

(ii) applicable State or local law; or

(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

(c) As used in this section, the term -

(1) ''identification number'' means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;

(2) ''motor vehicle'' has the meaning given that term in section 32101 of title 49;

(3) ''motor vehicle demolisher'' means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;

(4) ''motor vehicle scrap processor'' means a person -

(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling;

(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process metallic scrap into prepared grades; and

(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling; but such term does not include any activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.

(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term ''tampers with'' includes covering a program decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.

[rpoz11]

Mr. Lillard, I seem to tend to think your discussions for this site lean toward the Historical aspects of the Camaro itsself; otherwise I dont think Clary would have started all this. I am more for the Historical view and preservation of the cars we have! So, with that in mind, I believe that the Shell's are of no value and I care not to see one of these shell's be retrofitted for the purpose of keeping a PaceCar, for example with this thread, alive. That is a touchy point though with all the GoodMark Items available as well, so this can be contardictory. So, I like Mark C.'s research that he has provided. Can we preserve a car as a time capsule, maybe..most likely no. This PaceCar deserves to be fixed and brought back..but as an overseas shell?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif...BTW< this thing really got the squish done to it...

[rpoz11]

Other pic he had...

[rpoz11]

I goofed on my pic selection...sorry! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif Can Mr. Clary please omit my duplicate pic I accidentally inserted...Thanx! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not illegal

[/ QUOTE ]

What is illegal under 18 USC 511 would be to take the VIN from that hulk and put it on one of those new repro bodies, no matter the reason. I am very familiar with this statute. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif Under 511 (a) (1) if you remove it for an illegal purpose you are committing the crime. Under 511 2 (B) "reasonably necessary for repair" does not include placing the VIN on another body. Under 511 (C) it doesn't work either: "a person who restores or replaces an identification number in accordance with applicable State law." I have yet to find any State laws that authorize VIN tag swapping to another car body. And, as we all learned in the Federal Courts class at law school, in the absence of a State statute directly on point, the Federal statute will be deemed the supreme authority on the subject. (The Supremacy Clause)

[BARN FIND]

Legally...how much of the car do you have to transfer (by percent or specific parts) to be legal?

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Legally...how much of the car do you have to transfer (by percent or specific parts) to be legal?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can sell any or all of the car and it's not a problem. Most State laws make it a crime to sell a VIN tag though, even with an accompanying title. The crime comes into play when you take the tag from one vehicle and place it on another. Heck, you can even take the VIN tag of one of those infamous missing ZL-1s and dance in the streets with it http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif but if you try to rivet it onto another car it then becomes a Federal Felony. The added bonus (to the Feds) is that the car is now deemed "contraband" and will be seized. Once declared contraband it cannot be sold at one of those government auctions either. It usually gets used as a government car in some manner or another or is crushed..... I can just see it now, Efram Zimblist, Jr. cruising up to FBI headquarters in his seized, rebodied 69 ZL1. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[olredalert]

--------While Im sure you are correct in what you have stated about the legalities, I wonder at what point one considers the sheet metal that has been stamped out and then welded together a car. I know this is wierd, but it seems somewhat similar to the point at which a fetus is deemed life. I know, I said it was wierd! Hope this isnt another Roe-VS-Wade on a smaller, less important scale, but I dont consider a bare complete body a car, although others might...........Bill S

[Seattle Sam]

Charley,
SPEED Channel had a special on SEMA and interviewed a guy at the show representing the 69 Camaro convertible body company. He said there was a temporary injunction which had been placed and was already lifted, because they misunderstood that he was producing complete cars instead of just bodies. His position is that he produces sheet metal parts like GoodMark.

At least that's what I heard over the conversation in the room...I didn't catch his name or the name of his company.

Anyone else catch the show?
-Sam

[dbowtie]

Yes,I saw that too.The quote seemed to be "without quarter panels ,it's not a car".That must be a simplification of what was discussed between Dynacorn and GM.Interesting segment in a program that was as informercial-like as anything I can think of.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
--------While Im sure you are correct in what you have stated about the legalities, I wonder at what point one considers the sheet metal that has been stamped out and then welded together a car.

[/ QUOTE ]

The issue is not about the car body, it's about placing a VIN tag from another car on that body. THAT is what is illegal. (Not withstanding any civil copyright issues GM may have with the trademarked design of the 69 Camaro)

I think Dynacorn could avoid all legal problems by simply classifying their "item" as a 1/1 scale model of a 69 Camaro shell. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif They could put a Monogram or Revell label on the crate and then sell them through local hobby shops. It would be just another collectors item like Johnny Lightenings or Hotwheels...only much bigger!

[gemleeus]

why would anyone even want to place the vin and trim plates from an original car to the new bodies?

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
why would anyone even want to place the vin and trim plates from an original car to the new bodies?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately there are people out there who, 1) instead of taking the time/money to restore a car, (due to the massive amounts of $$$ involved) or 2) want to change the color/trim/engine options on their car and then represent it as an original car, or 3) who have a car that is too rusted, or 4) have a car with a suspect past (stolen), will try to just take the VIN tag off of the old car and put it on the new car and then represent the "new" car as the original car. There are people on both sides of the fence on the issue, i.e. whether is it justified in certain cases or not, i.e., a rusted beyond recogntion 71 Hemicuda convertible. But the fact is: that until the laws are repealed or revised (unlikely) to suit the realities of the restoration community (and illegal chop shop operators in some cases), it is still a felony to swap VINs from one body to another.

I don't see the Federal law ever getting revised because it would gut the original intent of the law, allowing auto thieves to open up "legal" chop shops everywhere. If you're not familiar with how they operate, one of the common scenarios is that the chop shop will legitimately buy a totaled 2002 Camaro for say, $500 and then have one of their thieves steal a similar 2002 Camaro off the street. They will then swap the VIN off of the totalled car and place it on the stolen car, thereby turing their $500 investment into a $25,000 profit. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Wow, this is sounding much too much like work. Can we go back to making fun of fake white 68 Yenkos on ebay now? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[gemleeus]

I see no "justification in certain cases" weather its a yugo or 71 hemi cuda, if its beyond the grave to bad, leave it there. would'nt the totalled camaro have a salvaged title thus changing the vin plates around would be for not. by running the vin it would come up as a salvage and throw up red flags at that point?

[njsteve]

I was trying to do the reader's digest version. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif But since you ask: At the same time Mr. Chop Shop is physicaly swapping his VINs, he is either "manually" revising the paper title with some white-out or "washing" it through another state where they don't brand titles as salvage. Now he has a fresh, unbranded title to sell the car with. This also adds a plethora of additional Federal felonies: Mail Fraud, Wire Fraud, Securities Fraud (titles are considered a "security instrument") and ITSMV -Interstate Transportation of Stolen Motor Vehicles.

Students, your final exam will be next Tuesday. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[BARN FIND]

OK, bottom line, how much of the original car can you replace before it is illegal (or it is considered a body swap)?

[njsteve]

No definitive answer on that, only arguments with a slippery slope. On a unibody car like a Camaro, I would say if you have the original car's shell with firewall (with hidden VIN and VIN tag intact) you are fine. Then any work you are doing to that shell is considered repair/restoration. That shell may need the frame rails replaced, floors replaced, roof replaced, trunk floor replaced...but the end result will still have been based upon that original car. Compare that scenario with the easy and less expensive way of pulling the VIN off and riveting it on a rust free 6-cylinder car's body. That would be illegal.

On a body-on-frame car like a Chevelle, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the frame does not have a VIN on it, so the body shell again would be the primary piece of the vehicle's identity.

The point is you have to keep the original framework of the car to still be that car. I would use the human body as an example: heart transplant, lung transplant, kidney transplant = still same person. But you transplant the brain where all the "data" exists as to that person's originality and it is now another person...but then Joan Rivers comes to mind...Does anyone here think any of Joan's original parts are still on her body...or in a jar somewhere?

[Mark_C]

Mr. chop shop does not fall under the exemptions stated in USC 511, since he is a not the owner or the owners representative, b probably knows the vehicle is stolen, and c does not have the owners permission. Therefore by definition of the code he is performing an illegal act under this section of the code. This is also not to say that there are not state codes dealing with the "tampering" with a VIN that may also apply to this situation.

Once again it all comes down to the definition of repair. If I, for example, want to repair my Z11 (cause I own one) by purchasing a bunch of reproduction body parts already welded together to form a body tub by someone else (it is not a car after all, it's a repair peice) and install it in my driveway with my two hands, instead of buying a bunch of loose reproduction and or NOS body parts and paying someone to weld them together onto my subframe, I am all of a sudden considered as some lower form of life (for example, I'm not really that bad a person), whereas the person who delivers a rusted out hulk of a Z11 and all those loose parts to a body shop and returns 6 months to a year later with a big check in hand is a savior or a classic automobile. Sort of like the work done on Fred Gibb's #1 ZL1 coupe, but because he kept the dreaded hidden VIN sections of the firewall it's OK. What happened to the VIN or VIN's or the cars all the rest of the pieces were cut from, or is this OK cause it's a Historic Vehicle. Yes, I'm being slightly sarcastic, but not that much. What's the difference in the end, both vehicles contain sheetmetal that was made somewhere besides the original GM sheetmetal plants. What is the holy part of the Camaro that should not be reproduced that is making this body tub so distatefull to people.

I agree that someone should not be able to make a hot rod version of the Camaro from this part, but thats a different issue. But all of this is probably moot because if GM makes Dynacorn sell these things without quarters the market for them is going to shrink to about 10 to 20 percent of what it was with the quarters. Obviously the price is now going to have to drop by 2 to 3 thousand dollars and that may make the return on investment way to low to justify their continued existance.

And yes, a chevelle does have a VIN stamped on the frame on the drivers side top, back by the gas tank I believe.

[njsteve]

There are certain parts of an automobile that "The Law" considers sacred. Anything with a factory attached or stamped identifcation number is in that category. Lets use a Mopar as an example since they are unibodies but don't use a removable front subframe. Theoretically you could set up a jig in your garage and bolt your original rusted shell to it. You then cut away all the rusted parts from the firewall back and weld up the back portion of this Dynacorn body to that firewall. Then once that is done you cut off all the rusted stuff to the front of that firewall and attach the front half of a Dynacorn body. Technically you would be within the law (and out a lot of $$$ in labor)
The moral is because of the illegal acts of a bunch of people over the years, we are all stuck with these strict guidelines.

[njsteve]

Oh by the way, when I say "within the law" I mean that it would not be considered a crime.

[Mark_C]

From USC 49 Section 32101

USC 49 Section 32101 (http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t49t50+736+0++%28motor% 20vehicle%20definition%29%20%20AND%20%28%2849%29%2 0ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20)

(7) ''motor vehicle'' means a vehicle driven or drawn by

mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public

streets, roads, and highways, but does not include a vehicle

operated only on a rail line.

(8) ''motor vehicle accident'' means an accident resulting from

the maintenance or operation of a passenger motor vehicle or

passenger motor vehicle equipment.

(9) ''multipurpose passenger vehicle'' means a passenger motor

vehicle constructed on a truck chassis or with special features

for occasional off-road operation.

(10) ''passenger motor vehicle'' means a motor vehicle with

motive power designed to carry not more than 12 individuals, but

does not include -

(A) a motorcycle; or

(B) a truck not designed primarily to carry its operator or

passengers.

(11) ''passenger motor vehicle equipment'' means -

(A) a system, part, or component of a passenger motor vehicle

as originally made;

(B) a similar part or component made or sold for replacement

or improvement of a system, part, or component, or as an

accessory or addition to a passenger motor vehicle; or

(C) a device made or sold for use in towing a passenger motor

vehicle.

This tub does not meet the definition of motor vehicle, since it can not by itself be driven or drawn by mechanical power on public roads, streets or highways. It does however meet the definition of "passenger motor vehicle equipment"

[budnate]

doesnt the full frame cars have the vin stamped ontop of the frame under the driver seat area..only visible with a mirror???

Bud.

[Rat_Pack]

[ QUOTE ]
doesnt the full frame cars have the vin stamped ontop of the frame under the driver seat area..only visible with a mirror???

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all full frame cars have the vin stamped into the frame. A couple of years ago I ran into a vin/body swap on a 70 Chevelle SS454 that a friend purchased. The frame was not correct and neither was the body. The hidden vins were not there, or least not in the locations they were supposed to be. The ones on the frame had been ground off. According to the NICB the numbers were in different locations from 68-72 and there were a couple of years that there were not any numbers on the frame!

This hobby needs to police itself and not allow reproduction of trim tags, window stickers, build sheets, or vin #'s, and yes vin's are being done for the early cars, you just have to ask the right people. Once the hobby does not accept or even allow for these guys to do business then can we start to accept a car at face value. It is still buyer beware though..................RatPack..............