Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......

[hep1966]

How do you feel about buying or selling firewall tags? I'm talking about real tags, not reproductions.

[Seattle Sam]

It's just wrong...

[Norm reynolds]

My feeling is nothing good can come out of selling trim tags http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif and in a lot of states it is illegal One can pass off a clone for the real deal I think most on this site feels the same way There are just to many crooks out there that will pass off a clone car with a trim tag or vin tag of another car

[JChlupsa]

its not illegal if thats what your asking. Do I like it no but the buyer and seller dont care about that. One X33D80 tag just sold for $400 while another Z28 tag sold for $905.

its the VIN tags that will get you jail time with the FEDS

[hep1966]

It is not a VIN tag. I have a firewall tag for a 66 Chevelle 138 car. I was considering selling it.

[DarrenX33]

Selling trim tags to me is like the rash of fake college diplomas going around lately. They are not illegal either. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[njsteve]

From my lawyerly perspective: the firewall tag is not illegal to sell on its own. But if the bozo you sell it to rivets it onto his 6 cyl Camaro and then proclaims it a Z-28 complete with his own handstamped DZ engine block and sells it to someone, you are guaranteed to be dragged into the subsequent lawsuit when the new owner figures out that his car is bogus. You may end up having the claim against you tossed out as a semi-innocent seller of the tag but not before you have spent about $20,000 in legal fees for an attorney who speciallizes in Federal law. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[hep1966]

That's a big stretch. If that were so, then anyone selling any vintage part, block, heads, wheels, dash, ANYTHING, could be sued. It just doesn't happen.

[njsteve]

Actually it's not quite the stretch you might want to believe when it involves the area of data plates, VIN tags and the like (I'm not talking about basic car parts). A drowning rat will try to climb onto anything above water. If some unknowledgable "collector" finds out that he has been ripped off, he will call his lawyer and the lawyer (as lawyers do) will add everyone he can to the lawsuit in order to find the deepest pockets he can. Like I said, the "honest" seller of the tag may eventually be dropped out of the lawsuit but not until he's spent a bunch of money on lawyer fees to have his lawyer get him out.

The higher the value of the car, the more likely you will get involved in a lawsuit. If someone is illicitly cloning a base SS it's a little different than if he's cloning a ZL1 and trying to pass it off as a real car. The higher the value, the higher the likelihood of a legal feeding frenzy (no offense to sharks out there).

[kenham]

Steve, I'm not a lawyer, but have been a detective in a big city and a PI for about 40 years total. If the guy who sells the car with the trim tag that he knows didn't belong to the car, (and it can be proven) and he represents it to be what the trim tag indicates, that's criminal fraud as well as civil fraud. I know of a 69 Camaro six cylinder that ended up as a 396 SS. The seller is the one who misrepresented the car and was sued in civil court. I really don't understand why it is legal for these people to make and sell trim tags. I know GM has taken action to stop companies who make decals, and other identifiable GM parts without being licensed to do so. And trim tags are most likely being bought for less that honest reasons. Just my opinion. Ken

[Jonesy]

If a 6 cylinder ended up as an SS396, then the VIN must have been swapped out and that's why that may have ended up in court. The VIN shows 6 or 8 cyl.

[kenham]

Jonesy, I imagine you're right about the vin being changed also, either that or the buyer was not Knowledgeable. Ken

[njsteve]

KENHAM, You're quite right. It also qualifies for Federal Criminal prosecution if it involves VIN fraud. Especially if it is a high dollar car and would make for a good example to show the public. The seller can also be sued in Federal Civil court for money damages if the buyer is in one state and the seller is in another.

[kenham]

Steve, wouldn't GM have some responsibility if it was brought to their attention that the trim tags were being used to defraud buyers and they didn't take action to stop their production, or license their procuction?

[Verne_Frantz]

hep,
I also must reply to this, as the subject is very close to me through my endeavors to help people prove their car is legit.

It is NOT a stretch. I agree with nj steve. The trim tag was never meant to be a "replacable part" on the car. It is the car's birth certificate. Darren also had another good analogy.

Let's say you were born with a short embarrsssing name, so you legally changed your name to Richard Wadsworth. Unfortunately, you can not change your original birth certificate, so you're still Dick Wad.
(no personal offense meant) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The trim tag is not the last "part" to go on the car, to match the rest of the restoration. The restoration should match the trim tag. The reason why some tags are selling for lots of money is because if they are on the car, it "indicates" the car is legit as it appears, and therefore has a much higher value. That increased value is false, therefore fraud has been committed.
Sorry for sounding like a laywer, Steve.

Verne

[Stuart Adams]

Not that my opinion matters much, but here goes - I don't like the idea, something inside me sais it's wrong and not cool. The person must need money real bad to be selling these things. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[hep1966]

[ QUOTE ]
so you're still Dick Wad
(no personal offense meant) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Lets say you had the name Dick Wad (no personal offense meant) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif and could not change it.

[Verne_Frantz]

As I said, there was no personal offense meant. The "you're" was meant "collectively" as anyone trying to change his birth certificate. (or his car's)

But I will also stand by my firm conviction that "in general", anyone who sells, buys or installs a trim tag on a car it's wasn't born with it is a low-life unethical participant in this hobby.

I don't believe you're in that category, since you asked the question whether it would be ok or not. Someone in that category would not ask that question - he'd just do it and keep it to himself.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kenham]

Verne, I couldn't have said it better.

[Charley Lillard]

If I was a guy that scrapped a bunch of cars over the years and kept the trim tags as a collection then needed money and decided to sell them, hopefully to someone else that collects them. Any harm in that ?

[kenham]

no

[Verne_Frantz]

Nope. But then I don't suppose they'd sell for $900. apiece either.

[LeMans Blue X77]

What about a legal body swap because your 67 ss was a rusted out old bucket and you found a solid donor 67?

you changed both vin and trim and had both cars properly inspected.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Mark_C]

You guys really think that 905 dollar auction for the trim tag (NOR308130) was real? Cause the tag was a repro, someones going to be pissed off.

Heres the first of 2 auctions for the same tag:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...672836&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=34204&item=4510672 836&rd=1)

[DSYenko]

If Dick Wad has a bad disease that will render all his vital organs useless in the next 6 months and Richard Wadsworth was in a fatel car accident and was wearing a donar card and all his vital organs were donated to Dick Wad,,,,,,he's still Dick Wad! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Belair62]

Someone please explain how to tell a real trim tag from a re-pop

[Mark_C]

Most obvious sign is a tag that looks like it's never been painted (stated only half facitiously). The tag was on the firewall almost as soon as there was a firewall. But seriously, there are significant differences and hopefully the repro'ers won't figure them all out any time soon. Look at the current thread on the Orange "COPO" in the for sale section, there are two identical tags associated with the car, both can't be original.

[NCGuy68]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone please explain how to tell a real trim tag from a re-pop

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question Bob......I'd like to know myself.

Lately, I've been 'eye-balling' the tag rivets real close.

[Belair62]

I can see not posting that stuff though...

[Xplantdad]

Mark C.

You could just PM Belair with the clues as how to tell.

I hear that he's starting a new business soon... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Belair62]

Yeah its called Real Fake Tags !! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[jfkheat]

Here is one that was just listed on Ebay.
James

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...807422&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=34204&item=4516807 422&rd=1)

[resto4u]

Compare the fonts, fake and real. crisp and clear, and not so clear. You decide... Im not telling http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Don_Lightfoot]

It's not only sellers involved here, but people are not shy to ask up front if tags are for sale. This ebay seller has a bunch of parts for a rare car for sale and, if you look at some of the comments in the listing, people are asking directly if the tags are for sale.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4515227729

[jbsides]

There was a BB Pacer at a Federal Government sponsored auction in Carson (CA) a couple years ago. My partner and I went to the preview showing to the look at the car, as it had been one of the draw cars with pictures advertising the auction in the LA Times. When my partner, who restores 69 Camaros, pointed out to the Government reps administering the event that the trim tag was a stone fake, they exibited very little concern, and sold the car to the highest bidder, a reseller in Oregon for over 30K. He, in turn, sold the car off his lot.
It is my opinion that, unless someone makes a huge legal stink, even the feds don't really care. I'm sure there are board members who remember the car, and its obvious shortcomings...

JB

[Pantera]

No legal law enforcment will inspect a car with the VIN changed! Instead they will conficate the car on the spot. It is a federal law not to remove and put on another car.

There is no legal way to put a different vin on another car. By law they have to issue a State assigned Vin # with a completely new number. IMO, The best way to do this is to repair the firewall of the car and then mate it up to a good solid body. Caution!! if you do this be damm sure that you have a legal BOS for the body that you do attach to a legal firewall with the good vin.

There are hidden # on bodys in more than one place. That is how the feds catch cars that have had the vin changed. So be wise and do it the right way or you may be very sorry.

Pantera
Former bodyshop owner

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[firstgenaddict]

A good friend of mine had his 97 Corvette stolen... the theif altered the vin# and drove the car around town for over 2 years until he was finally caught. He got the car back and the DMV issued a vinplate along with paperwork explaining the circumstances.
It was the old vin#

[Verne_Frantz]

DS,
Again, from my point of view, the trim tag is NOT a vital organ or a replacement part to make the new "body" complete. When Wadsworth donates his vital organs to Wad to keep him alive, yes, he's still Wad, and still has his original birth certificate - even if he has new "guts".
But if Wad dies, his birth certificate goes on file, marked deceased. It doesn't get attached to someone else.

I also have a hard time accepting re-bodied cars. I don't think the entire body was meant to be a replaceable part either. I know it's done all the time when an original body and/or frame is too far gone for restoration, but I feel uncomfortable calling the resulting car "restored". "Re-created", yes. But that word gives me the same sensation as scraping my fingernails on a chauk board.

Verne

[DarrenX33]

I think I am going to start buying fake trim tags. Bang them a few times with a hammer, chew up the holes a bit and spray them black. Then I will list them on ebay. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[resto4u]

It must depend on the value of the car as how people feel about this. Also if your the one getting ripped off or doing so. Rememeber there is a ZL-1 that has had major surgery. That car may only have about 20%-30% of the factory original parts from day one. And has not really affected it's value. Point being, that they saved the vin# and cowl tag. No switching. How many corvettes have new tags, just for a color change. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

Resto,
I do believe that most of the repro tags I've noticed ('58-'64) have been for just that - a color and/or trim change. Although the tag makers claim to "have all the codes", I am positive they do not. Luckily, for my segment of the hobby, there is a lot of confusion concerning the cryptic accessory codes. In those 7 years of production, there were 15 different assembly plants pushing out those cars, and most had their own unique coding method. Not only that, but most plants changed their own coding methods as the years went by.
So, even if someone discovers what one code means at one plant, if he applied that code to a car from another plant via a new tag, it would stand out like a sore thumb. I've seen repro tags on restored cars that had option codes that did not agree at all with the equipment on the car.

Verne

[Pantera]

But it was not the original vin plate they put back on the car, but one stamped on sheet metal and pop riveted on. NO? They had good reason to use the old # in that case as the rest of the hidden #'s will jive with the dash vin. Each state handles it slightly differently but on he whole they are all doing it similary and with documation that has to go with the car or be registered with that state. Somewhere down the line someone may question the new vin plate and the state assigned # and records of the deal will tell the story.

We as a body of car nuts want to see things like this happen so that each of us is protected from some bastard selling stolen cars. So if you see a vin that has just common old pop rivets holding it on you know to look harder at that car.

Pantera

[firstgenaddict]

Exactly Pantera. That is how the guy got popped. He did not have a tag on the car so the officer asked hime for registation info. The officer also asked him to pop the hood.(we had located the car and informed the police that we suspected it to be stolen) He checked the vin plate in the engine compartment, it didn't match the winshield one and Boom guy goes to the slammer. Turns out he had been buying Corvettes, shipping them out of the country then keeping a record of the Vin#'s. Stealing Corvettes then using the Vin's of the cars exported. Thus there was no overlap in the registrations.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Steve, wouldn't GM have some responsibility if it was brought to their attention that the trim tags were being used to defraud buyers and they didn't take action to stop their production, or license their procuction?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. GM is not responsible for the illegal actions of another. Should GM be sued by every homeowner every time a drunk driver plows his Suburban into the homeowner's tree?

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
If I was a guy that scrapped a bunch of cars over the years and kept the trim tags as a collection then needed money and decided to sell them, hopefully to someone else that collects them. Any harm in that ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No harm in that if you cut them in half, first. The data is still there for novelty sake, but it prevents it from being rivited onto another car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
What about a legal body swap because your 67 ss was a rusted out old bucket and you found a solid donor 67?

you changed both vin and trim and had both cars properly inspected.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely illegal. No such thing as a legal body swap. And you would lose the car when it went for inspection if they learned of the VIN swap: they would confiscate it on the spot.

[Stuart Adams]

I guess these guys think that CHROME/POLISHED trim tags are the start of a new restoration!!!! It wouldn't be complete unless the tag was sparkling!! It just cars, but selling/swapping tags has no ethical place in the hobby, period. This is a great site and full of straight shooters that try and keep the hobby real and fun. Verne, great way with words. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif