69 Nova L78 TH400

[daleroe]

I would greatly appreciate your help. I am researching a Nova. It is an unusal combination. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gifHere are the particulars:

4th week Dec 1968 Willow Run Car
L78
M40
Power Steering
Power Disc Brakes
Multi leaf spring
12 Bolt Posi (ratio unknown)
Column Shift
Bench Seat
Floor mats
AM Radio

The car is complete numbers/date code match. 55,716 actual miles. The body is straight with rust in the ususal places. Cortez silver with a plain black interior. SS Rocker trim emblems and hood. Currently it has a small block installed but the big block is all there including the holley carb (list # 3310) however no air cleaner. Any information you might be able to provide would be greatly appreciated. A week doesn't go by with out someone wanting to buy the car. Thank you.

Sincerely
Dale

[Belair62]

What info are you looking for Dale ???

[daleroe]

It can't be a copo can it? Production numbers? Any cars built with that package? Any information at all. With so many people wanting to buy the car and some getting pissed off when I won't sell - I thought I'd better find out some more about this car.

[daleroe]

I am 4th owner of the car and I know history back to the 2nd owner who purchased the car late 69 early 70 with low low miles. 2nd owner drag raced the car regularly before selling the car. The 3rd owner didn't appreciate the car other than the masive amounts of HP and the cars inability to transfer that to the pavement. I have owned the car since about 1973-74. I pulled the engine and installed the small block but kept all the parts.

[camarojoe]

No, can't be a COPO in 69, but it IS a pretty rare and desireable car... not sure of the production stats on 69 L78s with the auto, But I'm sure they aren't too plentiful... if you have documentation and all the original stuff with it, I can see why people are trying to buy it. Hi-Po Novas are starting to become very desireable and expensive... Don't give it away! Post some pics of it if you can, it sounds like a neat one.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[NovaMob03]

Not a copo. All 50 were built in June. Four colors-no silver. They all had bucket seats, floor shift, radio delete, 4.10 rear/BV code. Sounds like a neat Nova though-I'd keep it if I were you as the real L 78's are gettin' hard to find. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[daleroe]

What makes a copo car? Whats the difference between a special order car and a copo? I realize this is not one of the 50 that were produced in July but was built in December. It was only after the engineers had specified the cars for Gibb that this package could have been ordered and the original owner would have to have known very early of the Gibb cars and codes to get this car so quickly. I think its obvious that this car was no floored by the dealer but was special order. I suspect that the owner didn't know the radio delete code since it only has an AM not an AM/FM radio.

[WILMASBOYL78]

Dale, your 69 Nova is the first year the TH400 trans was avaialble as a regular production option RPO M-40 behind the solid lifter BB engines. The 68 Gibb COPO Novas were the firsts and paved the way for the introducton of this special trans in 1969. The trans was available in a number of vehicles including the Nova, Chevelle, Camaro and even Pass cars equipped with either the L78 or L72 engines. The trans had higher shift points and beefed up internals to handle the revs and torque of these engines. I don't know how many Novas got the auto, but it is safe to say there were certainly many more 4 spd cars made. BB L78 Novas are neat cars and have become more popular with collectors in the last year or so. Please consider joining National Nostalgic Nova and pay a visit to www.stevesnovasite.com (http://www.stevesnovasite.com) for lots of Nova discussion.

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Belair62]

Great info Wilma !

[lowmile]

There were about 7000 big block Novas built in 1969 @ 5000 L/78's and @2000 L34's of those 7000 there were 1411 M40/turbo 400 cars built. There were only 1236 M40 Novas built in 1970. BB are getting more desirable all the time. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif Sounds like a neat car. What are your plans for it and do you have any pictures. m

[WILMASBOYL78]

Mark, do you have a breakdown between the L-34 and L-78 production for the TH400. There was supposed to be a difference in the high horse trans, I wonder if the code or ID tag was diffrent. Any thoughts....???

tw

[sYc]

In '68 the L-78 auto was coded CY, in '69 CX. I think Rob has posted elsewhere on here the internal differences between these transmissions and the ones going in the lower HP cars.

[Chevy454]

Here's a thread with the different parts that the CX & CY tranny carried in 1969...I've got an application code table somewhere, maybe I need to post it also...

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...true#Post109754 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB10&Number=109754&Searc hpage=1&Main=109754&Words=400&topic=&Search=true#P ost109754)

[WILMASBOYL78]

Did I miss something, where is the thread??

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Chevy454]

No, I missed something...now it's there!

[WILMASBOYL78]

Now I remember seeing that thread the first time. Good info! So what is the difference between the 70 version with the CW code? Are they built to the same specs as the CY version?

wilma

[Chevy454]

I would say so...but... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Charley Lillard]

CY ?

[mnyenko]

Oh see why.....

[Mr70]

Yes,now I C Y..

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Sounds like a neat car! El Strippo except for the a/t and some rocker shine = very cool. There were no copo nova's in '69, so this combination of options is not copo. Actually, this combination is your standard issue, base level BB Nova with an a/t. The bench with column shift was the standard for this setup. The rocker molding was not an SS only item, as it could be ordered as part of the exterior decor option, etc... If you have the original block, you've got a winner - not the carb though, the 3310 is a generic replacement unless dated for '65 as it was originally installed on the Z16 'velles.

[Kurt S]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, this combination is your standard issue, base level BB Nova with an a/t.

[/ QUOTE ]
Umm, other than the base BB was a L35 325hp. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The L78 got the beefed up TH400, which cost another $70.

[WILMASBOYL78]

Base 396 engine was the L-34 350hp model. Can't comment on costs of trans option. The 325hp motor was never a Nova option.I think what Marlin means is that if you ordered the L-78 with auto you got a bench seat column shift car. Buckets and/or console shift were extra.

wilma

[Kurt S]

Thanks! I kinda was wondering (as I typed that) about the L35 Nova cause I didn't recall seeing one.
For being almost identical platforms, there sure are a lot of difference between Nova and Camaro options!
$220 for hyd lifter TH400, $290 for solid lifter TH400. Of course, those are Camaro prices. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

No 325HP BB's in the Novas - 'cmon now http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TW got it, I meant the base L78 car with an a/t gave ya a bench with column shift and a rubber mat with no special trim on the inside - not even a dome light switch in the passenger side door!

[WILMASBOYL78]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks! I kinda was wondering (as I typed that) about the L35 Nova cause I didn't recall seeing one.
For being almost identical platforms, there sure are a lot of difference between Nova and Camaro options!
$220 for hyd lifter TH400, $290 for solid lifter TH400. Of course, those are Camaro prices. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

And for a TH400 L78 Nova, PRICELESS!!

wilma

[Supercar_Kid]

Any ideas on the logic of Chevrolet's not offering the 396/325 in the Nova but in nearly every other Chevrolet in the '69 model year?

[Kurt S]

Marlin,
I knew what you meant. It just sound like 'ho, hum, another BB Nova'. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
And you've been getting off easy without Motown around to hassle you. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[WILMASBOYL78]

The 396/325 hp was not avaiable in 1968 either. If you look at factory brochures form the day the 396 engine is not even listed as an option. I have a feeling the BB was kinda of low key "in the know" type option that was only available in the 2 versions. Just a guess but it makes sense to me.

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Supercar_Kid]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a feeling the BB was kinda of low key "in the know" type option that was only available in the 2 versions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's gotta be more to it than that. I dunno if I'd call this advertising approach "low key" either. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
http://www.yenko.net/attachments/111330-396Novaad.JPG

[WILMASBOYL78]

I was gonna mention that ad and didn't. It is strange the dealership brochures left out the BB motor but performance magazines talked them up. I just pulled out the 68-70 brochures and checked them, no mention of the "rat". Hard to figure??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

wilma

But who needs a brochure? I just go out to the garage... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Belair62]

I just go to my Photobucket Wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Supercar_Kid]

I think "The Grump" certainly helped make people aware of the Nova SS 396. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif
http://www.dragracingonline.com/special/images/GrumpysToy5.jpg
I do agree it's odd that Chevrolet was so vague about the availabilty of some of their performance options, like L-78, LS-6, etc. being omitted from some factory brochures. Especially if you ever watch and listen to a Sports Department sales communication kit. I have a September '69 one and it hypes L-78, Z/28, JL-8, SS Chevelle Camaro and Nova. It's strange that Chevrolet insiders would go to the trouble of creating and distributing these kits to educate their sales staff on how to sell hi-perf Chevys, yet they seemed to drop the ball themselves when it came to letting customers know about the availability of some RPOs on their order forms, brochures, handouts, etc. I'm sure that's partially why some RPOs weren't built in bigger numbers, but I'm still at a loss for why the Nova alone would be restricted from carrying a 396/325HP engine, one of Chevrolet's most popular big blocks. Could it have been a way of giving the Nova SS an extra push away from it's former economy car image and an effort to make it more competitive with it's handsome sibling Camaro SS? Just a guess, but 25 free horses and a few extra dollars in your pocket may have been enough to swing some buyers towards the Nova SS.

[Mr70]

I wouldn't call it dropping the Ball.
Not every Chevy Dealership wanted to sell the Special Hi-perf vehicles.It is Us today who are romancing an idea that it was Special Hi-perf all over the place,when in reality it was more likely considerably much less then that.Probably fewer then 10%.
I recently sat down with a local salesman here who told me he wouldn't even entertain the fact they could order the LS6 Chevelle when he was selling cars..They just wanted to sell Trucks,Station Wagons, & four doors.They didn't want the aggravation & warranty work of those Special Hi-perf cars.
They survived throughout the 40's-50's-60's that way,& weren't about to switch to the latest Fad.
I was saddened to hear him tell me this,but I understand it.
Today he owns that dealership,& lives by that creedo.

[camarojoe]

The price factor between the Camaro/Nova sounds like a pretty logical idea...What was the base price of a 350hp 396 Nova SS vs: a 325 hp 396 Camaro SS in 1969?

[WILMASBOYL78]

I guess we all must be eternally grateful to the handful of dealers back then who had the vision and passion to promote performance. We must be equally grateful that there were actually customers who stepped up and bought the cars. Without people these cars have no meaning or real value. Like I always say "haven't seen one yet that drove itself" Thanks to all those who came before!

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Belair62]

I think I read over at Steves that the Grumps Nova started life as an L79 non SS car.....how cool is that.

[Supercar_Kid]

I can certainly appreciate that not all dealerships were high performance oriented, that's why we talk about the same handful or so on here everyday. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif It just makes me wonder why Chevrolet engineers would gear up and produce these hi-perf oriented RPOs while the marketing department seemed to make little effort to even let the customer know they were available. Remember, it was GM and the Chevrolet division that was responsible for developing profitable packages, long before a dealer would have to worry about what he/she was going to make their living on.

More intriguing is why no 396/325 in a Nova? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Belair62]

Probably price points....325 horse Nova may have detracted from a Chevelle or something..no need to cut off their nose to spite their face...who knows http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[JoeC]

could have been the cost of emission certification. Say they estimated selling 2000 325hp Novas and 2000 350hp Novas, They would have to do the emission certification twice for only 4000 units. It may have been more cost effictive to just do one emission certification where the cost can be spread over 4000 350hp Novas.

[@wot]

I worked at a chevy dealership (United Cherolet) outside of Worcester, MA in 1970. I moved cars in the lots and drove "car swaps" around the state. It was a very prominent, high volume dealership that always maintained a large assortment of corvettes. We did get an occassional high performnace car, but in general, the LS6's, L78's, Z28's etc were rare. My point: I dealt with hundreds of new '70 chevys, and only a very small percentage were true muscle cars. I believe this was true with most dealers of the period.

[Kurt S]

[ QUOTE ]
could have been the cost of emission certification.

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably not. They were allowed to certify an engine/trans combo that could then be used in any platform as long as the components were the same. So the L35 would already have been cert'd under the Camaro drivetrain.

[Supercar_Kid]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I read over at Steves that the Grumps Nova started life as an L79 non SS car.....how cool is that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's a vintage pic that Ed Hedrick was kind enough to share with me. It's from his personal collection, and is definitely a period photo. It shows Dave Strickler giving the Grump '68 Nova a drink between rounds. Notice there's no rubber flap on the fan shroud/core support, which seems to support it's small block origins. Pretty cool.

[sYc]

Cool picture... Thanks to Andrew H., I got the chance to visit with the Strickler family this past year at the York show. Both years I have attended they have had a booth along side a couple of Strickler prepared cars. Usually along side "The Grump", as Ed called him at SCR7.

[Supercar_Kid]

Here's another. What a pair. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[Supercar_Kid]

Last one. Note lack of SS hood louvers, or Super Sport rocker emblems.

[JoeC]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably not. They were allowed to certify an engine/trans combo that could then be used in any platform as long as the components were the same. So the L35 would already have been cert'd under the Camaro drivetrain.


[/ QUOTE ]

According to JohnZ (Chevy engineer) the complete car had to be submitted for emission certification.
Here is a quote from a JohnZ thread on Team Camaro "EPA emission certification was done not only by powertrain, but by carline application, vehicle weight, aero drag, and coast-down horsepower testing, which created many variables. Every different situation required full EPA certification"
I also know that Yenko had to get EPA certification on the 1968 427 Camaro. He could not use the 427 Impala certification.

[JoeC]

Erik, cool Grumpy Nova pictures http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Belair62]

Wonder who's mighty Mopar is in front of it...looks like Dandy ?

[resto4u]

cool pic, of mr.5&50

[Belair62]

Saw 5 & 50 at auction...very cool...check the 61 Poncho wagon in one of those backgrounds...I love looking at the old photos and looking in the backgrounds....post more

[Supercar_Kid]

[ QUOTE ]
I love looking at the old photos and looking in the backgrounds....post more

[/ QUOTE ] How's this for cool?

[Supercar_Kid]

Last one...can anyone spot the body mod on this one? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[sYc]

Rear fenderwell, moved forward?

[Xplantdad]

Looks like the seats are different...not a body mod, though. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Radiused fenderwells? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Bruce

[Supercar_Kid]

Tom wins this one. While looking over several period pics of his famed DY Yenko that were on display at SCR7, Ed Hedrick had an interesting recollection. Together, Ed and I were examining the changes that were made to the car during the course of it’s campaign, and I had commented on it’s lack of rocker moldings in some later photos. Ed went on to explain that it was a trick of Grump’s to section the outer quarter panel lip, with a few pie slice reliefs, lengthening the wheel opening all the way until it fit flush with the inner wheel tub, freeing up an extra inch or two for bigger slicks. He said it wasn’t technically legal, but it wasn’t technically illegal either. He explained that it was always Grump’s interpretation, that if a modification wasn’t specifically prohibited in the rulebook, it was fair game. He said after they had stretched the opening, they would eliminate the rocker moldings and squirt them black clear up to the door opening to help divert attention away from the alteration. They never got any flak from track officials about it. Just another reason why Grump, Strickler, & Hedrick ran so fast. Pretty slick you gotta admit.

[Chevy454]

Too friggin' cool... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
According to JohnZ (Chevy engineer) the complete car had to be submitted for emission certification.
Here is a quote from a JohnZ thread on Team Camaro "EPA emission certification was done not only by powertrain, but by carline application, vehicle weight, aero drag, and coast-down horsepower testing, which created many variables. Every different situation required full EPA certification"
I also know that Yenko had to get EPA certification on the 1968 427 Camaro. He could not use the 427 Impala certification.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the actual EPA Certificate for the Yenko Deuce. It was issued to Yenko Sportscars Inc. in March 1971 for the 1970 cars. Do you think Yenko was trying to get them certified for some sort of NHRA class?

[Schonyenko2]

Both copo camaros that we've had in here had their wheelwells moved forward like the grumps. Richmond's Vitar camaro, and Jude's burnished brown copo. Big slicks, power to the ground.

[68TopStock]

The cut and slice approach was more esthetic than the old "large hammer" approach! On the Sox & Martin hemi-Cuda's, I have been told the factory supplied special rear 1/4's. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Jeff H]

So did they also move the rear axle forward a little or was it still centered for the larger tires after altering the wheel opening? I noticed the lack of rocker moldings right away but couldn't figure out why. Cool car. I love these old pictures showing what people really did with their cars.

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
It was issued to Yenko Sportscars Inc. in March 1971 for the 1970 cars. Do you think Yenko was trying to get them certified for some sort of NHRA class?

[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly...we have a boat load of correspondance between Yenko Sportscars Inc. and Wally Parks, but apparently it was futile, as the '70 350/360 Novas are still NOT a legal NHRA combo...I helped a guy out east try and get it classified last year, but no go as of yet...