69 Z28 RS JL8 Crossram car listed at BJ auction

[Jeff H]

According to their information this is an all original, unrestored, documented JL8. It will be really interesting(at least to me)to see what this car brings.

69 Z28 RS JL8 Crossram car (http://www.barrett-jackson.com/events/scottsdale/vehicles/cardetail_list.asp?id=178282)

[wundercluck]

I'm looking forward to seeing this car at Scottsdale also. Sounds like it's probably another Van Nuys JL8 and should run through the auction around mid afternoon Friday? I should be pretty close to the stage then!!
Don

[Jeff H]

Yeah, it will be good to see a real, documented car and what interest it brings. Hey Charley, do you know anything about this car?

[Charley Lillard]

I have never seen it. I heard it painted black for years and has just been painted the correct blue ?

[Jeff H]

Didn't Jim at Heartbeat City have a black RS JL8 car that the tag showed was originally blue? I wonder if it's that car.

[firstgenaddict]

The ad says that it is unrestored.
I guess unrestored means different things to different people?

[Jeff H]

I guess they consider a repaint "cosmetic detailing".

[Stuart Adams]

Does anybody know this car? Charley!

[Kurt S]

I don't have any info on the car.
I'd be interested in any #'s from the car and pics of the documentation if anyone looks at it at BJ. Thanks!

[Xplantdad]

I'm sure that a few of us that will be there can get you the information...


Bruce

[Stuart Adams]

Any info. before the auction would be appreciated.

[Xplantdad]

I will be there from move in of the auction until move out. I'll see what I can find out http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Bruce

[wundercluck]

I should get there around noon Thursday. I'll try to locate the car and see what info I can get.
Don

[MosportGreen66]

Jeff... My Dad was interested in the JL8 Z28 that Jim at Heartbeat had. After careful analysis with Ed Cuneen's help, it was found that the JL8 option was dealer installed and there was question about the authenticity of the P-o-P. It was painted black but originally Le Mans Blue.

I do believe this to be the same car as advertised in BJ ALTHOUGH, Ed noted in his report that the car appeared to have, "an older restoration." It sold shortly after my Dad and Ed inspected the car.

I quote from Ed's report:
"This axle has a cast date of January 3, 1969 and was stamped on January 9, 1969 with a QX code. The axle was manufactured in Michigan. The owner took possession on the car on January 28, 1969, leaving only 19 days for the axle to be shipped to California and installed on the Camaro. The Camaro body was built during the first week in November, which would mean that the body would have to be stored in Los Angles during November and December awaiting the axle to arrive. This is an unlikey scenario. I know of no other JL8 cars built this early in 1969. However, axle assemblies became available in January 1969."

P-o-P Information:
"Frank DiHartce, a previous owner, believes this car was purchased from FairwayChevrolet in Sacramento, California. The Protect-o-Plate does not show a dealer name. It appears that a dealer rubber stamp impression has been rubbed off the warranty card. The POP shows a sales date of January 28, 1969. The glue was on the card, but the glue attaching the plate was elastic and could be strected when lifting the plate edge away from the card."

[427TJ]

If this JL8 RS Z 'checks out' okay then I predict it'll pass the 100K mark easily. Big if.

There, I made my prediction. Anyone else wanna' stir the pot? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Stuart Adams]

BJ auction - the place you buy non legit cars for legit prices - isn't America great. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Jeff H]

Dan, I remember Jim's car being a Nov or Dec car dated before the JL8 became available and I wondered about that. I know there were Chevrolet memo's that were sent out saying the JL8 option was not available yet. But I'm not sure what the time frames were. This car at BJ is probably the car Jim had. I don't know what to make of it. I was hoping a legit and authentic car would go across the auction block but this one sounds questionable.

[Steve Shauger]

This car was owned by Jim S. and has been recently painted the correct Lemans Blue. And the car is probably the earliest known JL8. Tony K. owns it now, thats all I know.

[MosportGreen66]

Something is not correct about this car.

I am not going to say anything else public about this car. I do not know Tony and personally have not seen his car. I do know what Mr. Cuneen stated about the car as I have a copy of his report of findings. If anyone is interested in this car please contact me and I will forward any desired information. Thanks.

-Dan

[Steve Shauger]

My comment was not meant to validate the car. I have not inspected the car or the documentation. I will say it has been a known car for over ten years.

[Kurt S]

A Nov or Dec JL8? I don't even have to look at the car. I don't think so.....

Whatever happened to the black RS/Z28 that Ed Ulyate(sp?) owned in the early 1990's? It was listed in Hemmings and sold at B/J as a cross ram JL8 car with a ton of options (endura, deluxe, blue light, gauges, etc) It had a legit axle in it and everything was dated correctly.

[mrrec]

Let me get this straight: An original, unrestored car that was repainted black, then again back to blue??!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Original: as it left the factory
Unrestored: not messed with since above!!

I can't wait to see this one. Maybe it will generate interest in my Lemans Blue 69Z I'll have on the turntable. Let's see, I'll call it original, unrestored...yeah, that'll work. I just painted it, detailed it, replaced a bunch of parts............

Dave

[Late BrakeU2]

"IF" this is the same car that Jim was selling I was interested in it as well.It did not have the crossram at that time,and the POP had an owners name of I believe Alvarez.It was delivered to a Sacramento area dealer and circa 1972 blue cali plates- 238 TVC

[Charley Lillard]

"believes this car was purchased from FairwayChevrolet in Sacramento"

I have lived in the Sacramento area all my life and I can only think of John Geere, Lew Williams and Chase Chevrolet. I don't recall Fairway.

[resto4u]

Fairway Chev, 222 E. San Bruno, San Bruno,Ca. 94066

[70 copo]

$100K http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif That was all she could bring?

Looked like a nice car for the money. when you factor in the that it was an RS.... WOW. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Phil

[Late BrakeU2]

Could be the harbinger for the future sorry to say.BJ set the tone for the market last year with those cobbled cars.There was a beautiful 69 L78 with no docs that could only fetch 57k,and while there will be more cars coming through I think those loud pops I heard after the gavel struck on that xram was some collectors sphincters snapping shut-

[Belair62]

Which L78 did you see

[Late BrakeU2]

It was hugger,white top,white houndstooth,hockey stripe.. don't know if it had paper-gotta get Tivo one of these years!

[Jeff H]

That L78 was really a 396/350 car. It was listed wrong.

[budnate]

Jeff what was wrong with the 69 Hugger cross ram car that just went for 79K????

[Belair62]

No paper is what they are saying....they look nice on TV but those guys there are smoking them over pretty good...!! I saw the Garnet Camaro go thru..it said L78....but it was a 350 horse car..

[MGINLA]

Prices seem okay. Per the updates on the BJ website.

Lot 707 1969 Z28 Hugger Orange $85,320 + 8% commission.
Lot 719 1969 Pace Car 350 Automatic $66,960 + commission.

Not sure if the Z28 had a crossram or not.

Lots more to go!

Lot 692 1969 Z28 with JL8 and crossram does not show up as sold on their site?? I wonder why?

[budnate]

aahhhh missed that...must have been when I was yelling at the kids to be quite...lol.

[Belair62]

White COPO....187k + commish !

[DarrenX33]

I can't remember. Did that car (White COPO) still have the original drivetrain??

[Belair62]

I don't think so...but I'm not sure.

[budnate]

any other dork register to guess on what they go for...???? I figured the Hemi car at 277k...

[Chris396]

A bucket seat Hemi probably would have brought more.

[Belair62]

Black auto COPO 125 + commish...anyone there see this one ?

[Chris396]

That's a reasonable price no?

[Belair62]

I think it was a good buy pricewise but I don't know the car...68 Z for 51 k ???

[DarrenX33]

Damn commercial! Did that guy recoup on the Yellow JL8?

[DaveC68]

[ QUOTE ]
Damn commercial! Did that guy recoup on the Yellow JL8?

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, same here...I wanted to see what the yellow Z went for too.
Did you like how he changed his blazer color with the color of each car he sold http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Chris396]

That guy is funny. What a stereotype.

[budnate]

the ugly green one went for 57K..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Xplantdad]

The yellow car went for high 80's...i think. I was standing right there. Actually, I'm too tired to think!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[MGINLA]

[ QUOTE ]
Damn commercial! Did that guy recoup on the Yellow JL8?

[/ QUOTE ]

Per the BJ website he lost money. He paid $112,000+ and sold at $93,960-comm. I would say he lost.

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]
Black auto COPO 125 + commish...anyone there see this one ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep straight as an arrow...Hey Bob....I posted pics of it, dude!

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
the ugly green one went for 57K..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ae you talking about the frost green 69 COPO?? 57k??? I could have parked that car in my front lawn with a for sale sign and did better than that... what happened??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[DarrenX33]

No Joe I think he's taking a shot at me. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[budnate]

hey ya know I love that color..I thought you would have responded with a little more spunk....hands down my favorite color of GM...sealed the deal for me when I figured out the 68 I bought is a green one.....the BJ car looked perfect...does anyone know if it was the real deal and correct...it had that bling when you looked at it....

[Mr70]

The Frost Green COPO Camaro is due to go off Saturday PM,#1056.
Cmon Darren,where's your Spunk? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DarrenX33]

Please I'm beat. Just came in from the garage. I'll be glad when all the old orange paint is off this block. The store is running out of wire wheels. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone know if it was the real deal and correct...it had that bling when you looked at

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone called me while looking at that car Thursday. Said it was nice but lots of repoped items under the hood. That's all I know on that one.

[Xplantdad]

All of Resslers cars looked nice...there were just weird ass things wrong with them. The '68 Z (light blue)didn't have deep groove pulleys, the engine wasn't the original...

It didn't stack up to the other 68 Z that was outside in the main arena area..which was a 987 point car

[DarrenX33]

Was it me or did his orange Z have the rear stripes laid out wrong? Though they were to short of the rear window. Probably me.

Wonder if he did anything to the Yellow JL8 since he bought it last year? Bet yellow isn't his favorite color this year. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Xplantdad]

Actually, all the knowledgeable people from this site said that all three cars had the stripes laid out wrong on the back end...and especially around the spoiler area...ya got me on that? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

That's why they're the experts!

[hvychev]

Guys I personally did not see ANY car that brought what I thought was big money. The Lamar COPO at $185K and the Hemi Cuda at $250K are prices that people like RichP here have said they were going for in the first place. To be honest.......I am quite shocked at SEVERAL of the cars being sold so cheap. Could you imagine some of the car owners pissing down their legs as the car that they brought thinking they were going to get $100K for is stuck in the $50's? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Either the bubble is truly bursting or most of these rare cars don't need to be sold at an auction. Outlets like the Internet link people together so most sales are probably worked out privately or through brokers. Another possibility might be that the prices that the brokers are publicly quoting in the first place are A LOT higher than what the cars actually sell for. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Another thing. Speed Channel is WAYYYY behind the times with the people that they have commenting on the cars, especially that British goof. They even said it themselves that Barrett-Jackson used to be the place to go and buy a nice rare European car but now it has shifted to mostly American Muscle Cars and Hot Rods. With that said they could not possibility have worse commentators than those guys. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you imagine some of the car owners pissing down their legs as the car that they brought thinking they were going to get $100K for is stuck in the $50's?


[/ QUOTE ]

Frank,
I know of a least 3 people that had friends bid on their car, so that they got it back...because they thought the price was too low! Yep, they had to pay to put it in the auction, and yep, they had to pay the comission...but they will be trying elsewhere!

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing. Speed Channel is WAYYYY behind the times with the people that they have commenting on the cars, especially that British goof. They even said it themselves that Barrett-Jackson used to be the place to go and buy a nice rare European car but now it has shifted to mostly American Muscle Cars and Hot Rods. With that said they could not possibility have worse commentators than those guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

They actually broadcast the "broadcast" throughout B-J...you should hear what people there are saying about those turds... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[Chris396]

Yeah I wish they had some people who knew muscle.

[Late BrakeU2]

Remember these guys are racing commentators contracted to Speed TV and wing this one off deal every year.Unless they change the format to have all muscle cars on one given day (ain't gonna happen,would kill ratings) and rotate in experts you guys will continue to catch them on stuff because your frame of reference is far more intimate.

Yates,while being very knowledgeable,is a pedantic bore at times,Varsha is IMO the best racing color guy ever,and Decadnet won't be in his element till the mega euro cars roll in this weekend.That guy knows more about most racing cars than anyone,because he's raced and won in most of them.

2 CENTZ

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys I personally did not see ANY car that brought what I thought was big money. The Lamar COPO at $185K and the Hemi Cuda at $250K are prices that people like RichP here have said they were going for in the first place. To be honest.......I am quite shocked at SEVERAL of the cars being sold so cheap. Could you imagine some of the car owners pissing down their legs as the car that they brought thinking they were going to get $100K for is stuck in the $50's? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

"Either the bubble is truly bursting or most of these rare cars don't need to be sold at an auction".





I agree. I think we are on the front end of a market correction period on the value of these cars. The first indication of the correction in progress was on display last year with the Ed Coneen cars. Neither sold for anywhere close to what folks would have guessed them to go for. At any rate the Z/28 decline was also predictible, as these cars are way too numerous right now to sustain these values. Expect these cars to drop a little more and then stablize in value. JMO, but the economy is coming back, and when other investiment options come up the speculators will dump these cars and the prices will drop accordingly. all you have to do is look at what happened to prices in the early to mid 90's to see this cycle at work, and it will repeat. It always does. Remember, no reserve allows the true market value of a car to be set-without the owner's reserve (to prop up prices) in the event that the market tells the owner what the car is really worth. The richest car collectors and speculators are at the auction and the prices being paid right now tell you where they think the "money" is for the future.

But I could be all wet here... There is still two more days to go... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Phil

[70 copo]

In this market - I think right now you could take a wrong drivetrain Z-28, put in a drivetrain out of a late model Corvette, (make sure it has working AC) put 22" wheels on it and I bet the market would nearly bring as much as a restored example. Modified rods are hot. The older enthusist/collector seem to want the looks of the old car but the comfort of a modern car too. With a newer drivetrain you can get both, and the big wheels bring the car up to today's trend.

Phil

[MotownMadman]

As usual, you guys got me confused again, many posts were made indicating the JL8 advertising stated "Unrestored". Okay, maybe I'm getting old, blind, better quality with certain vice's, it is too late at night, or morning, however you see it, but after reading the ad three times all I can find is the word "restored". Someone want to un-confuse me please?
Motown http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[gemleeus]

last year the car sold for 120,960 and that didn't include the buyers premium

[Salvatore]

Corvettes seem to be back to bringing bigger numbers and also it looks like the old Thunderbirds are up there too. Not sure what the big attraction is on the T-birds?

[MosportGreen66]

[ QUOTE ]
As usual, you guys got me confused again, many posts were made indicating the JL8 advertising stated "Unrestored". Okay, maybe I'm getting old, blind, better quality with certain vice's, it is too late at night, or morning, however you see it, but after reading the ad three times all I can find is the word "restored". Someone want to un-confuse me please?
Motown http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Motown this should clarify.
Last year the car was advertised by Jim Stubbings as an unrestored JL8 Z-28. The car had been painted black from its original LeMans Blue but the interior and engine compartment remained untouched. After a few guys passed on the car, my father included, it sold to the man who brought it to BJ. The owner swears up and down that the documentation backing up the January JL-8 build is correct and authentic. (not taking anything away from this car!) We have out doubts though. The owner painted the car is original LeMans Blue and strapped on a Cross Ram unit as well. I personally do not think this car is unrestored at all. It also seems as if the engine compartment has been detailed to an extent too. I hope you guys were talking about this car!

-Dan

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
No Joe I think he's taking a shot at me. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, in that case... fire away... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DarrenX33]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[whitetop]

Frank & 70 Copo

I also agree the bubble is going to burst any time now. Just read in a Kiplinger type forcast magazine that companies throughout the US have not bought for the most part any large internal infrustructure like computers/cnc machines/tooling unless they HAD TOO over the last 4-5 years because of the sluggish economy. Even the recent Dell commercial made light of this when it showed a workstation with 4-5 monitors and everything duct taped together. These companies know what the buying trend is going to be over the next few years and are advertising their wares.

However in 2005-06 these companies need to and are being forced to upgrade to new equipment because the stuff they are using is just plain worn out or is obsolete. The report said this is a new cycle that happens every so many years and 05-06 is it. The next two years are predicted to be the strongest sales of high end tooling/machining and main frame computers in along time. I don't think it will be like in 97-99 but it will be very strong. I think the stock market is going to come back strong, even lower unemployment and Iraq will start to stabilize after the elections. All of this is going to make the stock market competitive with the returns on collectible cars.

Also, BJ even admitted last night that many of the buyers at the auction were first time car people or people who did well in life who went without a car. These people IMO are not true car people like most of us and will be the first ones to sell their car when the market starts returning more than a single digit return each year...or when the car prices give the slightest indication of going down. They will then go onto their next hobby of the month whim.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I wish they had some people who knew muscle.

[/ QUOTE ]

These guys are just absloute idiots with some of the comments there are making.

If they dont want to bring in hired experts to comment on musclecars, at least bring in someone funny like John "Tuff Actin-Tinactin" Madden, so we can enjoy his ramblings. At least he would be entertaining... I can hear it now:

Well let me tall ya Ray, I saw that JL8 this morning when I was walking to the hot dog stand, just take a left at the mens room and there it is, well those hotdogs were great I tell ya, did I ever tell you about the time I spilled mustard on my shirt at the Superbowl, speaking of Superbowl, that reminds me of when I was in the bathroom earlier when I went to get a hotdog. Hot dog, that reminds of a JL8 I saw this morning...back to you Ray......

[Belair62]

I think we are talking apples and oranges...good real Chevy cars are strong...run of the mill,mediocre stuff will still be bought reasonable as always...you can't use B/J as a bellweather IMO...maybe Charley can tell us a little about the COPO Camaro's there....they are usually the best buy in the Supercar arena anyway...but how good/bad were the ones that went across ? I think the Z's sere selling for a decent buck too for the condition and correctness...last year was abnormal with all the goofyness with crossram stuff. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Charley Lillard]

I didn't pay any attention to the white COPO because I have seen it before. The car was touted as a 400 orig mile car when in fact I think it was just since it was repainted. The white COPO apparently had girls holding signs and really hyping the car when it went across so I guess it worked. I personally would have bought the black COPO first. Maybe the auto trans hurt the black car. I think the Blue RSJL8 Z28 was bought back by the owner.

[whitetop]

Bob
I disagree and heres why. The lower end musclecars I feel are owned by the true hobbyist who are in it for the love of the cars and are not flipping cars like the griddle chef at Waffle House. These are the people who have been in the hobby for years and will be in the hobby years from now. We all know the regular died in the wool hobbyist has been priced out of the hobby on the rare stuff.

I would make a wager that majority of high end cars are bought by people who are buying them as much for an investment as the love of the car itself. When the prices start fluctuating down they will get out.

[Mr70]

I for one,Can't wait for the Bubble to Burst.
To many Carpetbaggers,novices,speculators are in this Hobby now,& it needs an Enema.

[Belair62]

I think you may have it backwards now though...a couple years ago the "flippers" were selling the higher end stuff...today the cars that can be bought more reasonable are being flipped...There were ALWAYS cars that were out of reach for people...I wanted a 53 Skylark bad 15 years ago but they were close to 50 or 60 then if I'm not mistaken...hell they are still way up there...I don't see many Supercars being flipped these days...they sell privately...and people know what they are worth in the marketplace.Whether these cars hold their value or not is up to the people who own them and want them.The whole crossram/JL8 goofyness of last year probably woke people up to those cars and no one is buying stupid on them from what I saw...tri-fives ,t-birds,GOOD Hemi cars etc were pulling big bucks . I would love to have a nice Hemi car again but they are not in my budget !! Rarity and desireability,and quality of restoration coupled with what the guy standing on the stage bidding wants is what brings the money out there.

[DaveC68]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I wish they had some people who knew muscle.

[/ QUOTE ]

These guys are just absloute idiots with some of the comments there are making.

If they dont want to bring in hired experts to comment on musclecars, at least bring in someone funny like John "Tuff Actin-Tinactin" Madden, so we can enjoy his ramblings. At least he would be entertaining... I can hear it now:

Well let me tall ya Ray, I saw that JL8 this morning when I was walking to the hot dog stand, just take a left at the mens room and there it is, well those hotdogs were great I tell ya, did I ever tell you about the time I spilled mustard on my shirt at the Superbowl, speaking of Superbowl, that reminds me of when I was in the bathroom earlier when I went to get a hotdog. Hot dog, that reminds of a JL8 I saw this morning...back to you Ray......

[/ QUOTE ]

heck, even the info posted on the screen as the auctions ran...
Did you notice the red RS/SS 396 listed as 396 4speed and under that ...stated optional heavy duty hydromatic http://www.firstgenerationmontecarlo.com/ubb/graemlins/nutz.gif

[sYc]

I have been hearing for the last 3-4 years that the market is going to drop. Sort of like predicting the long range weather, keep saying the same thing long enough and sooner or later you will be right. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

IMO, overall the musclecar hobby will continue to flourish. Yes, some of the crazy stuff may falter, but the quality, hi-performance cars will continue to appreciate. Maybe not at the rate they have the past few years, but will continue to draw attention, thus $$$.

I say this because of the interest in the cars, especially supercars right now. I visit with media folks, vendors, show promoters and collectors on a dailey basis and can honestly say the interest in rare musclecars is increasing, not decreasing. Just look at what is happening in the magazines, with almost ever automotive magazine featuring an older musclecar or two each month. Major shows are catering to the older musclecars more and more. The collectable market, which is driven by the interest in the cars and the folks who built/designed them, is becoming big business. Just look at the sYc and the SCR, where growth the last couple of years has been overwhelming, with new folks jumping on board dailey.

Yes, as the stock market recovers, we will see some folks move on to other investments/trends, but in large part the baby boomers will continue to relive, through musclecars, a more simply, and enjoyable part of their past.


At least I will. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Jeff H]

I think the Hugger Orange Z28 crossram car was the fake crossram just like the yellow LJ8 from last year. That car brought $79K which is unreal if it was the fake crossram. Did anybody there at BJ get to look at the Orange crossram Z28 to see if it was a real GM manifold? The trend I see right now is that the cars that jumped up over $100K last year have stagnated but the middle level cars are filling in more into the $40-80K range. It just seems like there wasn't a lot of Chevrolet cars with good strong paperwork and that seems to be where the real buyers are interested.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been hearing for the last 3-4 years that the market is going to drop. Sort of like predicting the long range weather, keep saying the same thing long enough and sooner or later you will be right. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I sold my real 1971 HemiCuda Convertible (the yellow one) to Otis Chandler back in 1987 for $54,000 because I thought the market had peeked. ...I guess I was wrong (It's a 2.5 million dollar car now) At least I kept my 70 Charger.

The morale of the story is: if you like it, buy it and keep it to enjoy yourself. That way you cant go wrong. If the value goes up or down you still have the car you liked to begin with. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Chris396]

$68,000 for the yellow '66 Vette 300hp powerglide seems outrageous to me.

[DWCamaro69]

Jeff, The Orange car had a non-GM crossram, was originally green, NOM DZ302, quarter panels installed crooked, etc. Wolf in sheeps clothing. Don't think it was as good of car as my Garnet Z with the non-GM crossram that went for 30K less on ebay last week although it was probably "prepped" for auction better.

[Jeff H]

That's what I thought about the Orange car. $79K for a NOM non GM crossram Z28. I can't figure it out. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[hvychev]

Without coming off negative I did not say it last night.....the Motion Vette Brought $210,000!!!!! I predicted it would not do over 200K......I guess the market is changing........

[Jeff H]

Yeah, that was a stunner. These guys paying $500K for a street rod but nobody is stepping up for the rare muscle. I'm confused. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[jfkheat]

In my opinion, very few bidders there know anything about COPOs, Motion cars or other truely rare muscle cars. They want something to look pretty sitting in their garage. I'm not saying the COPOs aren't nice looking cars. Most of them look like a plain jane car until you open the hood. That's not what most of these guys want. They would rather spend $500K on one of Boyd's street rods that will be worth $100K in a few years.
James

[DarrenX33]

Have to admit that some of those customs are pretty sweet. I did like that "Whatthehea" Boyd car. Some of those woodys were done very nicely. The silver woody gave me a, well you know. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[njsteve]

I guess if the Dellahaye/What-the-haye was a truck, it would have been called the "What-the-F--k http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
These guys paying $500K for a street rod but nobody is stepping up for the rare muscle. I'm confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's probably because the ultra-dollar street rods are truly one-of-a-kind but there's always some other guy out there with a Hemi Cuda or LS6 convert.

[Belair62]

Some of those creations were simply mind boggling...someone brought a just completed Boydster (whatever that is) and it went for 90k...bet it cost more to build it...

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
Have to admit that some of those customs are pretty sweet. I did like that "Whatthehay" Boyd car.....

[/ QUOTE ]

That car was absolutely stunning. The only problem is after seeing Boyd's TV show, I know the BS craftmanship that went into building that thing. Brock Yates is talking about how people are paying the big dollars for Boyd's cars because of his exceptional craftmanship when in reality, his cars are built by a bunch of cry baby 20 year olds.

[CROSSRAMJL8]

THIS WAS MY FIRST YEAR AT BJ I TOOK THE BLUE JL-8 WITH THE CROSSRAM. I CAN SAY MY CAR WAS ONE OF THE NICEST Z-28S THERE AND BY FAR THE MOST ORIGINAL. I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW A CAR WITH A REPRO CROSSRAM AND OTHER NON ORIGINAL PEICES CAN SELL OF 70 TO 90K. I BOUGHT MY CAR BACK FROM BARRETT-JACKSON. I FEEL LIKE THE AUCTION DID NOT WORK THE CAR FOR THE $ IT IS WORTH, MOST OF THE Z-28S THERE WERE NOT THE CALIBUR OF MY MY CAR IN OPINION. 16K IS A LOT OF $ FOR 2 MINUTES OF ACTION. I ASSUME THEY HAVE HAVE NOT POSTED MY CAR AS SOLD BECAUSE I HAVE NOT PAID THE 16K COMMISSION.

[Jeff H]

Sorry the car didn't bring what you were hoping it would. I can't figure it out. Cars with non original motor and modified Offenhauser crossram gets $79K but your car with all rare GM parts and original motor only goes up to $100K. I just don't get it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Late BrakeU2]

I think a few people got less for their cars than anticipated,some will be unwilling to gamble if they continue with no reserve.The format last year was better for sellers who had the option of lowering the reserve during the auction,but it is decidedly anticlimactic for viewers so it doesn't seem likely to change

On the bright side Muscle is the future of this auction http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[GRB]

Some people say the bubble will burst. I kind of doubt it because the people who are buying now can hold on to them through thick and thin. My dream hemi car is turning into a nightmare...why didn't I buy ten years ago....oh, I remember...I couldn't justify what they were bringing even then! Idiot!

[Jeff H]

Don't you hate when you're behind the price curve! I wanted to buy a beach house on Long Beach Island here in NJ and I was sooooo close about 7 years ago. Now the curve has headed upwards so fast I doubt it will ever happen.

[Mr70]

Patience http://www.clipart-directory.com/gfimages/tn_balloon-burst.gif

[Kim_Howie]

The prices have not sky rocked to the point of unaffordable.
It's been that way for a long time. 1969 I lived in Burlington,Ia 40 miles from Fred Gibb. The ZL-1 were 7,800 dollars, then I couldn't afford one and 12-31-02 I was their for the new 2002 Camaro ZL-1 and I still can't afford one so nothing has changed. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[GRB]

Kim, I too would have bought a ZL1. Didn't have the brains. Bought an 02 GMMG ZL1 in which I will soon have $150k invested (bad choice of words). Which proves I still have no brains!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Yep, got carried away. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Canucklehead]

So it seems that in an investment standpoint your better off to comission a high end builder to build a one off ride and bring it to barrett jackson to unload it to a rich image consious guy than to put your money into rare muscle. You can't tell me that the Zephyr from last year, whatthehaye and the teraplane (which was built by the same guys as last years zehpyr) from this year cost that much to build. They must have made a tidy profit on both, even the stupid Alumitub (how many more stupid names can they come up with) got more money than i thought, look at the reproduction mercedes gullwing reaching nearly original prices??. Even the guy who thought he would maximize on last year Zephyr and brought that covertable one only went for $60k. There was some good prices paid from some nice build projects and i would think most those guys were happy. The 35 ford roadster tucci build went for 70k and i know he wanted $200k late last year becouse i talked to him, so OWWW!, i would think he bought that back. I wonder how many others bought theirs back?. I wasent there but some of those custom rods were very nice (Bruce?), and seemed to be getting top dollor. The commentators were mentioning that cars like chevzoom still got all the money and it's a 15 yr old car and yet they said it will be a future collectable becouse it's a Boydd build and yet the foose Stueddy and the Skyliner did'nt hit the right marks (the realmad seemed about the right price). Yet Foose is in my opinion the superior builder??????. The crowd there seemed to be looking for nice cars not nessasarly "right" cars. I like how in some cases the wife is in the bidders ear. BTW, craig's comment on the 3mill olds was he sold that car to it's current owner back in 97 and he said he would be happy if it brought 600-700k. He must be doing backflips!!!!

[Denis]

I was there this weekend and watched all the cars that went across Thursday-Sunday. There were some nice honest cars there, like the blue 69 RS-Z and the blue 68 Z, but there was some real crap too.

Bottom line: If you see a car associated with Mark Young (aka Chev Connection) and/or Ressler (the yellow jacket guy), then run away.

Young was back with his bogus brown 68 L89 because he was forced to take it back last year, then promptly pawned it off to another unsuspecting buyer.

IMO, the Chev world needs the equivalent of a Galen Glovier to provide some semblance of policing for these crooks.

P.S.: The Coddington and Foose cars were all outstanding. I even got to meet Duh-Wayne from Boyd's shop -- he's taller in real life, you know. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mr70]

"BTW, craig's comment on the 3mill olds was he sold that car to it's current owner back in 97 and he said he would be happy if it brought 600-700k. He must be doing backflips!!!!"

If thats how Craig expresses his anger. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
He probably wishes he kept that car now & he was the seller of it Saturday.

[Canucklehead]

No i meant that the current owner was saying he would be happy with 600-700k.

[GRB]

I wouldn't put a lot on money in a car that I wouldn't be happy with for a long, long time. My 02 ZL1 will not be worth anywhere near what I will have in it until I am long gone. If ever. But, I love the late model SS body style and need to see one everyday. I guess that's why I have a black, 1LE SS on a lift in my garage. I like to drive it but even if I didn't I would still have to have it.

The supercharged C5R 427 ZL1 will be virtually useless on the street but I still want it. It's kind of like looking under the hood of a hemi. If someone has to ask why you are glass eyed, mesmerized and drooling after an hour or so don't even bother trying to explain it to them. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Canucklehead]

Jay Leno qoute "collect what brings you happiness"

In collecting (coins, guns, cars, etc.) if you are in it for the money then eventually you will lose and lose big...I think the current prices and what sold for big money at B/J (the tri-fives, vintage t-birds, Shelby's, 'vettes, some rods, and hemis) represent what the "non-enthuiast" feels are collectibles. These are the cars that the average lay person thinks about when you mention "collector car." These cars have always been collectible and sought after. They aren't the "envogue" cars..ala "supercars" (no disrespect to anyone...) or specualtive cars. These are the cars that have ALWAYS brought good money. The JL8 cars, crossrams, Motions, etc. are all nice cars, but the hobby isn't really driven too much by niche pricing...It is usually driven and more importantly substained by what the "average joe" thinks. Ask your average car collector or enthusiast what type of Camaro they liek and most will say a "Z28" not a Yenko or Motion, ask an enthusiast to pick a Corvette and a lot will say a "split window"..not a 1 of 10 Motion car. These speciality cars are always going to be desirable and collectible, but they are a lot more volatile to pricing swings. I have never been into the heavily specualated cars, having concertrated on owning more "generic" cars..L78's, Z's, LS6's, 440x6, etc. I think these cars won't hurt a buyer nearly as much as the "supercars" (Yenkos, hemis, Motions, etc.) as evidence by the fact the Z's were bringing almost 2/3rds of what COPO's were. The plain fact of the matter is that it is the websites like this (a great site and one which there is a wealth of info, but also one which has largely been responsible for people asking 200k for a COPO with stripes..) that have over inflated certain cars and as collectors and specualtors bail out these will be the cars that get hit the hardest. I for one hope the bubble burst and burst big.. Just my opinion.

[gemleeus]

remember what site you are posting to, the "supercar" registry. this is what these folks are into, although we love the other muscle also. the bubble may burst one day, just say goodbye to all the fine cars we are seeing for sale today they will be tucked away and not seen for sale again until that bubble reinflates, then 10 ,or 20 years down the road you can imagine the prices they'll bring then

I'm well aware of the website I'm posting to...I am only pointing out what a lot of people already know..When a group hypes a certain marque and the cars are sold amongst themselves, thereby creating a "ghost" market sooner or later the bubble burst, and the cars come back to what the actual value is. There are a lot of very knowledgable people here, but conversely there are a lot of the same people that for the last 3 years have been hyping the Yenkos, COPO's, and the like and artifically inflating the market. If the market wasn't inflated then there wouldn't be discussion of collectors having to buy their car back at auction. Case in point the blue/RS Z..I have not personally seen the car, but have no doubt it is a superb car..Is it worth more than what the seller had to pay to buy it back. IMHO no..if it was then there wouldn't have been a need to buy it back in the first place. The mainstream would have recognized the value and the car would have sold. Especially given that the auction draws people from all over the world, and is well regard (rightly or wrongly) as the premier auction for classic cars. If we agree that the rarer, higher horepower cars are always going to be collectible at what point do we take into account the people that most likely will substain their prices not buying anymore. Do you guys really feel that the musclecar as we define it will be collectible in 20 years and more importantly will the rate of appreciation be on par with the time factor? This is not only a problem here but a problem elsewhere in the hobby as well.

[gemleeus]

these cars as well as others have been creeping in price every year. the yenkos, copos, motions, zl1s and on and on deserve "hyping" these are special automobiles as we all know the reasons behind what makes these cars what they are. this type of thing goes on in every car maker "high end" market, you have it in porsche, ferrari, corvette, etc. etc. no one is artifically inflating any markets, the simple facts are those that were young in that era that could only dream of those cars then, are now well to do and are purchasing that car they always held dear in thier hearts as a young boy growing up irregardless of price, thats whats driving the market, people are richer today, lots of money been made in the last 20 years, why? the world wide web is a major contributing factor. the blue jl8 z had some issues, i'm not saying the bj auction is a gauge or anything, its an auction, its design is to get the heart pumping, as i'm sure everyones aware. i would enjoy telling that i bought it at scottsdale to my friends. yes i think the musclecar as we define it will always be collectible, its a day gone buy never to return again in the form it was back then,your major manufactorers are all trying to duplicate it today, and doing a good job doing it imo.

[GRB]

Here's another $.02 worth. SOME old cars are like beachfront property. They ain't and can't make any more. Which of the old ones are BF and which are non-commercial farm property??? We all have our opinions on that and I think we would all agree on certain American cars; most hemis, ZL1s, COPOs, Cobras, Shelbys, Yenkos etc. And, which of the current muscle cars, if any, will reach collector status in the future? Who knows how market forces, fuel prices and even political and cultural shifts will effect the mkt. in 15-20 years?

[Belair62]

Greg..interesting observations and opinions....More the view of someone who would rather not have Yenkos/COPO cars and thats great...As the value of the much rarer and sought after Supercars go...so goes the Z28's the LS6's,L78,440 +6,etc.

[Dave Rifkin]

[ QUOTE ]
Greg..interesting observations and opinions....More the view of someone who would rather not have Yenkos/COPO cars and thats great...As the value of the much rarer and sought after Supercars go...so goes the Z28's the LS6's,L78,440 +6,etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
In addition to the escalating prices that the "lesser" musclecars will experience as the more sought after cars move out of the reach of most people I think that the clone cars will become more accepted by the collector family. I know I've always dreamed of owning a 1969 GT-500 like my parents owned when I was a kid but, since that will never happen unless I win the lottery, I might have to settle for owning a clone of that car. Even building a clone of your dream car is no cheap proposition which is why I think they will bring some big bucks once all of the real deal "supercars" are all locked up in the museums and collections never to be seen or driven again. (That will be a sad day indeed when these cars are looked upon as too valuable to enjoy).

[camarojoe]

I heard an orange 69 Yenko Camaro "clone" sold for nearly 90K at B-J this weekend. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[Steve Shauger]

I believe quality cars will always be in high demand, yes rarity makes them more desirable. One quality 68 Z with good pedigree brought I believe 69K at BJ(that was Yenko money a few short years ago). That has to be close to a record. Conversely mediocre cars I think have been most effected (downward)by what I observed at BJ and private sales. I am not saying that we are in a bubble or not, I don't care. I keep hearing the "hobbyist" state they are waiting for the bubble to burst...is that not speculating, on the speculators.

[Belair62]

I can't imagine not driving these cars...even if its only to local cruises....take a trip to SCR8 and you can watch them race as they were intended !!!

[Xplantdad]

I'm going to try my hardest to get out to SCR8...now THAT would be cool!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif


I haven't been back to Illinois since the summer of '73...

And yes...I'd bring my camera! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[GRB]

For third year in a row I'm going to TRY to go too!

[Belair62]

It's worth it...these guys thrash the hell out of their cars... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[sYc]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe quality cars will always be in high demand, yes rarity makes them more desirable. One quality 68 Z with good pedigree brought I believe 69K at BJ(that was Yenko money a few short years ago). That has to be close to a record. Conversely mediocre cars I think have been most effected (downward)by what I observed at BJ and private sales. I am not saying that we are in a bubble or not, I don't care. I keep hearing the "hobbyist" state they are waiting for the bubble to burst...is that not speculating, on the speculators.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[sYc]

I keep hearing where the "bubble is about to bust" for the rare supercars. Hum... If this were the case, why are we not seeing more supercars changing hands? If the market is headed downward, why were there not more supercars rolling across the stage at B/J? There are a lot of very successful business folks who hang out here and I have not seen them rushing to thin their collections of supercars. In fact, I am seeing quite the opposite, which tells me they feel the rare supercars are still a wise investment. That is good enough for me.

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
which of the current muscle cars, if any, will reach collector status in the future?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very good question,one i'm sure nobody had the answer for thirty years ago either.I looked around at what I thought embodied a true collectible current muscle car and decided on an Intimidator SS.How many times does GM commision it's most famous driver to build his own signature car for sale exclusively at his dealership? It is one of a handful of cars he signed before his departure,has thirty five miles on it,and will be sitting on a lift in my garage for a long time.

I remember reading about Reggie scarfing up COPO's for 5k in fields and barns during the mid seventies..seems like we all had at least one get away,i'm older and more disciplined now..

This one could have covered lots of Phil's Atty's fees:
http://www.thecarsource.com/shelby/cobra/daytona/csx2287.html

[budnate]

WOW..cool read to bad it looks like a mess of fighting going on...

[JoeG]

Martyn Schorr answered a question on 1/05 in Musclecar Enthusiast Magazine---"......Even though todays cars are better,safer and even faster,they don't have the soul and the legend and the history that the old musclecars had.I don't care how crude they might have been, with carburetion and distributors and everything else, they were real.if you're old enough to remember that time period, that's your roots and you should cherish that.--" Many car collectors/car enthusiasts have passions along these same lines -----So barring some unforseen catastrophy,---The bubble is pumped up and flying high for years to come--IMHO

[JoeG]

Then again I could be wrong........... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Chris396]

Just wait till 20 years from now when the hot car at auction is a Honda that was featured in a Tuner magazine way back in 2005. It'll be bid to $300,000 by a former Limp Bizkit fan who's backward hat covers his bald head. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Jeff Murphy]

[ QUOTE ]
Limp Bizkit fan who's backward hat covers his bald head.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm starting to resemble that remark!! Just COPOs for me, thanks. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif