1969 L-89 Convertible 4 Speed For Sale

[69L89RAG]

Here is the chance to own one of the rarest Camaros built!

I figured I would give everyone on the Forum some advance notice that I have decided to sell my 1969 L-89 Convertible. I will be putting it on eBay within the next week. This car was the topic of discussion on the forum about 2 years ago.

The car has undergone a full (14 month) restoration by PRC in Bridgewater, NJ. Every nut and bolt has been touched and redone. Window Regulator, Emergency Brake and Windshield Wiper Mechanisms take apart and replated then put back together. The links below show some of the restoration and the car finished.

http://share.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeFOXLdw5ZssU

http://share.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=EeFOXLdw5Zss2

Attached is a spec sheet as well.

I have documented owner history back to 1980.

I can be reached at [email protected] or by phone at 201-995-1383 if you have any questions.

Thanks!

[Mr70]

If you list it here,you have to price it here. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/52927/an/0/page/0#52927

[69L89RAG]

Sorry about that I thought I put it in.

$250,000

[69L89RAG]

I just listed my L-89 Camaro Convertible on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4529808924

SO LET THE DISCUSSION BEGIN!!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[2nersonnitrous]

My Dads friend says you bought this out of Glendale AZ,from a Fred Koenig,,,

[camarojoe]

Nice pictures, how do you know this car is one of eleven L89 cars? Do you have any documentation (protectoplate, build sheet, bill of sale, etc.) to show it is an authentic L89? What dealership originally sold the car?

[Jerry@CHP]

There is no way to prove this car was one of 11 built unless you have paperwork on all 311 built. After looking at the vin stamping on the block, it doesn't match the original Norwood vin characters in our data base. If I were going to spend that kind of money on a very rare car, I would not buy it unless the car had one of the following, car shipper, window sticker, dealer invoice or dealer order sheet. Paperwork in paramount for a car like this!

Jerry @CHP

[DarrenX33]

Jerry welcome aboard. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[69L89RAG]

Jerry,

I would be curios to know what database do you have?

The last time this car was a topic of discussion on this sight did you put in your opinion?

[camarojoe]

What kind of paperwork do you have on the car? Do you have any of the above mentioned items or any other proof it is a real-deal an L89?

[mike s]

this guy seem to be avoiding that documentation question very well

[camarojoe]

I was just curious as to the original selling dealer more than anything actually... I've been having pretty bad luck with answers to those kinds of questions lately...maybe everyone else on the board will get pics of the docs e mailed to them except for me since i asked too many times. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Don_Lightfoot]

What it is or isn't; documentation or not; priced too high or not; that's between the seller and any possible purchaser. That's all irrelevant to me since I'm not in the market for a car in this price range.

I would just like to say the car IS GORGEOUS in Fathom Green and White which has always been one of my favorite color combos for 69. Unfortunately I couldn't wait for my dial-up to load all the pictures. About the only thing I might have done is to put the correct "era 69" tires on. Good luck with the sale.

[camarojoe]

No doubt its a nice car, I don't think anyone is arguing that at all...nor the price, etc... just wondered why no documents have been shown or mentioned, as that would seem to be the only way to verify the car as being legitimate L89. I agree with the tires, as well as a few other small details... overall a nice looking car....Paint those silver headlight buckets black. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Mr Yenko]

Jerry,
I agree with the characters in the vin stamp on the block. I have never seen the "1" in the vin # have the feet on the bottom. Also what is your opinion on the essembly date on the block so far from the build date of the car. That is about 10 weeks apart. I hope people do their homework on LARGE purchases like this car. The "MOF"

[DarrenX33]

Hey Sherlock your never gonna get anywhere asking all these questions. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[69L89RAG]

I am sure that nobody has documentation on all 311 L-89s as Jerry suggests is needed.

I have owner history back to 1980 as mentioned in the auction. I personally have seen enough bogus documents for cars that I at least want to talk to previous owners to verify the car and the documents.

[af1fe]

$250,000 for a car with no documentation? DUH! Send me in coach!

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure that nobody has documentation on all 311 L-89s as Jerry suggests is needed.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, you don't need documents for 311 cars, just this one.

[mockingbird812]

Broaching on Engine Stamp Pad appears correct and distinct. Are there still machines out there today to produce this type of machining marks?

SAm

[Jerry@CHP]

We have a data base of original stampings and tracings that I've been collecting for over 20 years. These include cars that were judged at the Camaro Nationals, cars we've inspected for clients, cars in our local area that we have known since new and original cars that we've worked on.

This is the first posting that I've written about this car.

Jerry @CHP

[Jerry@CHP]

The reason I mentioned needing the documentation for all 311 L89's built in 1969 was to prove the point that only 11 convertibles were built. I suspect that convertible numbers would be small and any that were built were probably built for NHRA racing in Stock or Super Stock classes. Convertibles were heavier and made a different weight break, and in some classes, that was an advantage. In 1968, a legal NHRA SS396 Super Stock Camaro convertible would run the same class as a Z28.

Jerry @CHP

[COPO]

[ QUOTE ]
wondered why no documents have been shown or mentioned

[/ QUOTE ] Probably because there are not any, but I think most people figured that out. Let's face it, anyone selling an ultra rare car with a 1/4 million dollar asking price would be listing everything possible about the car, especially on a site like this with so many potential, but very knowledgeable buyers. Because of all the fakes out there, unfortunately, matching numbers aren't a big determinate on the validity of a car's pedigree anymore. Many of the corvette guys certainly have broaching and restamping down to a science.

A very nice looking car, but likely a tough sell in this crowd.

Jerry, nice to see you on the site. Your knowledge is certainly welcome. BTW, nice job on my booster I recently received. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[TimG]

Many Corvette folks search for a virgin block, one that was sold over the counter with no stamping. These are perfect blocks to stamp although their availability is limited.
I've seen that the less of a certain engine installed in a car, the longer is the acceptable spread between the assembaly date and installation date. A friend is looking at a L89 automatic in a '69 Corvette, very few made. The spread is longer than typical as these were not used as quickly as a 427/390 horse motor. They tend to sit and wait in inventory.

[olredalert]

-------Tim is correct on the rarity versus build-date aspect.
-------Something to remember with broach-marks is that the broaching machines used had a time line with respect to wear. In other words, not all original broach-marks look the same. The scratches grow more distinct as the broachers wear out. Dont judge one set of broach-marks against another as they both could be original. Just make sure those lines are straight!...........Bill S

[Belair62]

He may have just threw a dart for the price since they have to be priced here...If someone is interested and needs more info you should probably get together with the owner.

[KevinW]

Joining the party late as usual http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Very nice car! Rich does outstanding work. 1 question though. Are the seat belts original to the car? I cannot see the front ones, but the rears are the deluxe 68 style, not the 69 style. Since this is a very early car and there were a bunch of carry over 68 parts (spoiler, walnut wheel to name a couple), maybe the seat belts carried over too. But this is the first that I have seen.

Thanks

[camarojoe]

If you look closer you'll see thats not a 69 walnut wheel, its a rosewood.

[KevinW]

Joe, I was speaking in general terms, but now that you mention it, this early of a car should have a short spoiler and (possibly)a walnut wheel, not what is on the car.

I have a factory spoiler car from Oct 68 (10B) and it has the short spoiler and this car was built a few weeks earlier.

[camarojoe]

Kevin, agreed... the rosewood didnt even come out until december 68. This car should have a shallow walnut wheel.

[Jeff H]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way to prove this car was one of 11 built unless you have paperwork on all 311 built. After looking at the vin stamping on the block, it doesn't match the original Norwood vin characters in our data base. If I were going to spend that kind of money on a very rare car, I would not buy it unless the car had one of the following, car shipper, window sticker, dealer invoice or dealer order sheet. Paperwork in paramount for a car like this!

Jerry @CHP

[/ QUOTE ]

I know nothing about this car or it's originality, but I have to point out that you have pictures of this very same "1" in your 69 Z28-SS396 fact book Jerry. It definitely looks odd compared to most stampings but I don't think it can rule out originality.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]


Something to remember with broach-marks is that the broaching machines used had a time line with respect to wear. In other words, not all original broach-marks look the same. The scratches grow more distinct as the broachers wear out. Dont judge one set of broach-marks against another as they both could be original. Just make sure those lines are straight!...........Bill S

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good observation. This is akin to forensic comparisons of bullets to a particular barrel of a particular weapon. The reason that you can match a single bullet to a single gun is that the machining process of making one barrel after another, degrades the mandrel or the cutting instrument used to make the barrel. So barrel #1 will have a different microscopic machine mark pattern than barrel #2 and so on. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif The same can be said for the machines that were used to cut the flat surfaces on engine blocks. So if someone (like Jerry) has been identifying and recording particular patterns over a sequence of time from a specific engine plant, they can then render an expert opinion as to the originality of an ID pad surface.

Jerry, have you ever been called as an expert witness?

[Jerry@CHP]

Yes, many times starting back to about 1994 or so.

[Salvatore]

Hey Jerry, Lets go DRAG RACING! P.S. The voltage regulator looks great as I knew it would. Thanks, Sam http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[af1fe]

I can't find out where Jerry said anything about the "1" charactor. Am I mistaken?

[Jeff H]

I'm sorry, it was Mr Yenko that mentioned the feet on the "1"s, not Jerry. I did notice that Jerry's book does have another 69 partial VIN with those "1"s so that character wouldn't rule it a restamp. I'm not an expert on stampings but I can't see any characters that don't match some of the samples in his book.

[Charley Lillard]

I think someone else said it. we need more info on that..

[JChlupsa]

L78 pad stamps, after 20+ years stored under a house.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/HawaiianCamaro/Cars/1108613536-005593.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/HawaiianCamaro/Cars/1108613496-005592.jpg

[raw muscle cars]

Question If this camaro is so rare and valuable and sought after by collectors why would you put it for sale on a place like e-bay? It seems there are no docs to prove it is what he says it is so I think maybe you would say its a "clone". no ticky no laundry.

[COPO]

There are MANY rare cars that have been for sale and have sold on or through ebay. I have bought 4 of them through an initial auction on ebay including a '69 L78 Camaro Convert., and 3 Baldwin Motion cars (67, 69 and 71).

It seems harsh to call this car a clone given what you know at this point. Another board member stated that the shop doing the resto thought that the car appeared to be at least a legit L-78 car. If it was me it would be money well spent to hire a PI to find the history on this car. Big difference in value if it can be proven.

[raw muscle cars]

according to kevin suydams website there were eleven built and he and roger gibson claim its the only one left out of the eleven.

[mike s]

in my opinion kevin suydam does not have the only L89 convertible but in the same right i do not believe that car is correct as a real L89 but even if i am wrong which i could be without documentation its not worth that kind of money in my opinion

just my 2 cents mike

[Salvatore]

I don't think it is either, Mike. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[Jeff H]

Yeah, that's a steep price tag for an undocumented car, but then look at the flip side, how's a Hemi Cuda conv without the original motor worth $1 million? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Kurt S]

Noone knows how many L89 ragtops there were. 11 is a guess, I think it's more than that, seeing I know of 3 plus the two pacers. Still, they are rare. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

It would have been nice to have one clean pic of the whole pad, but I don't see any issues with the engine pad. The first 5 digits of the engine partial VIN match with another known block. Yes, the other pad has a foot on the 1.

[Charley Lillard]

Thankyou Kurt.....

[raw muscle cars]

so whats the verdict here after all the discussion is it real or not and what would you all pay for this car? it seem that seans copo chevelle is a steal at the price he is asking.

[camarojoe]

In comparison with this one, I'd have to agree. But i'd take a 427 car over a 396 car w/aluminum heads even with equal documentation, just based on personal preference. Keep in mind that asking price and selling price are often far removed from each other too though. JMO.

[69L89RAG]

Okay, I have sat back and watched all the fun so here is the history of the car:

I bought this car in August 2002. I was looking for a 1969 Camaro Big Block convertible. After searching and looking at cars for 8 months I came across an ad for a 396/350 Convertible. It was an old ad on a family’s website. I tried to contact the seller but the email address did not work. So I tried the family whose site had the ad and they sent me a new address for (Owner 5). After contacting him and asking him what he had in the way of Big Block Camaro convertibles he mentioned the L-89 and a couple of others that he had. The L-89 was intriguing. But (Owner 5) did not want sell it. After about a month of phone calls and prodding for some pictures I got (Owner 5) agree to sell the car. Then I did something you will all appreciate I tried to negotiate price! He listed the car on Camaro.net for sale. He called me and told me I had 24 hours to decide if I wanted it or he would sell it to the next person who wanted it. So I bought it. Can’t blame a guy for trying!

The car's condition at the time was decent, an older restoration from the mid 1980s but the car was never really used after that. The motor had been rebuilt but not totally put back together. (Owner 5) had the car for around 4 years. Car was located in Arizona when I purchased it.

(Owner 4) sold the car because he was going through a nasty divorce and his wife did not know about this car so he sold it. In that time he owned it he had started to have the engine rebuilt and did some detailing to the suspension. He did tell me that an employee of his carefully took out the instrument cluster. He said that it was absolutely original to the car and never taken out or touched before. (Owner 4) owned the car for 9 years. The car was located in Southern California.

(Owner 3) sold the car because he decided to restore it and was really unhappy about the job that was done especially to a ¼ panel that was replaced. (Owner 4) happened to visit (Owner 3)’s shop at the right time and bought the car. (Owner 3) obtained the car when he saw the car pass him going the other way while driving. He turned around and chased the car down. He noticed the 396 and SS badging. He noticed that the car had a high horsepower tach. He noticed that is had the correct deep groove pulleys. He also noticed that the car had the wrong manifold and carburetor. Asked the driver if he wanted to sell it. It seems that he was more than happy to sell it because the gas prices and mileage were killing him. He sold it and bought a Datsun!

The car when purchased by (Owner 3), for $3,500 I might add, it was in decent condition for an old Camaro. It was wearing its original Fathom green paint, black top, black interior. He decided to have the car restored. He said to me when I spoke with him that “just because someone made a color mistake when they order it, doesn’t mean that I am going to make the same mistake when I restore it”! He had the car redone in Lemans Blue and White. He never noticed the heads being aluminum because the engine was fully painted. He did tell me that he remembers the JJ codes on the block because he had a friend named JJ and he kept telling him he had a car with his name on it. (Owner 3) was in the business of buying and selling Camaros and their parts. He said he liked the big block convertible and 4 speed but it still was just another Camaro to him. You should hear his stories about cars he sold and parted out over the years for a few bucks!!!!!

(Owner 2) had seen an ad for the Convertible Camaro and bought it. He lived at the time in Michigan. He really wasn’t into cars and did not know much about this car when I talked to him. He does remember that the car had the High Horsepower Tach because when he was moving from Michigan to California he said he had the car at redline for like 20 minutes! And he did not blow it up! He did tell me that while he owned the car he blew the trans and had to replace it.

(Owner 1) I did not talk with because he passed away sometime ago. I did talk to his son-in-law. He told me that all he remembered was he went with his father-in-law to pick the car up in East Jordan, Michigan. When they got the car it had no engine and trans. He said a week or 2 later his father-in-law told him he had gotten the original motor and trans.

That is where the trail runs cold. Michigan purges their record after 10 years. I do have a lawyer who does insurance work trying to get the NICB to search their records.


In regards to some of the replies on my thread.

As far as listing a car like this on ebay. Ebay is one of the best places to market an automobile in the world. Cars that have value in the millions have sold. D-Type Jaguar $1.2 Million, Ferraris for over $1.5 million. Purchasers from all around the world monitor ebay for automobiles. Where else can you have 20,000 people take their time and look at a car you are trying sell?

As far as parts that are incorrect on my car. I know the car does not have the correct spoiler. The restoration shop has one painted for me if I wanted to put it on. I could not find a Walnut wheel that was worth the money when I restored the car so I left on the Rosewood wheel. Headlight buckets are now painted black. I had seen a lot of cars both ways so I did not know which was correct. The car has the correct fan blade but it is not date coded correct, the intake manifold is correct but has the wrong date code. The Trim tag that is on the car is a new one because the original (which I have) had the paint and interior color restamped. I was afraid to have it corrected because it would crack. I left the white interior in the car because it was the only way I like it with the Fathom green color and is easily changed. I have the original air cleaner top but it is not on the car because it was not as nice as the rest of the engine.

I do not have any paperwork. As I mention in my auction I have owner history, which is listed above. Would I like to have paperwork? Sure but do I believe that paperwork guaranties authenticity? Absolutely not. Just because a car has no paperwork does not mean that it a fake. In the ideal world I would like to have ALL paperwork and talk to the all the owners of the car and the selling dealer and the car would be untouched and original. Those cars are out there but they are far and few and on a different level. What matters is that the person who buys a car be comfortable with the purchase. Not the opinion of others.

As far as the question of the Block Stampings, I have requested, from Jerry, a copy of the stamping in his database that he compared with mine. From all the comparisons I have done, while I have owned the car, seem to match. Granted I might be tainted since I own the car. I also have had 3 knowledgeable, known, experts look at the stampings and say that they looked original and correct. But until I see exactly what Jerry looked at I really can’t respond to his comments directly. I would like to post it so everyone would be able compare them and make there own determination.

There is a better current shot of the pad and stampings attached.

As far as price goes, how do you put a price on car that one like it has never sold before? This car will make its own market price. Whatever price it sells for will be the baseline. It will only go up in value from there.

Thank You

[camarojoe]

Good post, better info right there than in the ebay ad description.

[69L89RAG]

That is also why I have my phone number in the auction.

[SuperNovaSS]

Was this car parked at a house in Ventura CA about 6 years ago by chance? I remember a blue L89 rag at a guy house that did Corvettes and Camaros then.

Jason

[69L89RAG]

No, This car has been garaged and not running for well over 15 years. But do you have his name and address?

[SuperNovaSS]

In that case the car may still be there. I don't think it was running at that time either. It was Blue. Sorry, I don't have his name or address. I'm sure Ican get it when I go try to find the car.

Jason

[raw muscle cars]

You all may think I am a jerk but, its a nice car, nice restoration and all that good stuff. when your paying 250,000 for car it better be completly correct in every way.all that typing on that posting still does not prove its a factory l-89 convert. Id bet if proof is put up there would be no problem getting tall money for the car. would any body here buy a 71 hemi cuda convert with no fender tag or build sheet with the wrong color interior because i say it is for 2 million? My thoughts would be prove it then post it. sorry but thats alot of cash for not being positive. signed the jerk

[Jeff H]

Not to be a pain in the butt either, but I've seen that style "1" in other stampings now so it looks ok, but that style of "3" looks odd. Most of the stampings I've seen had the round "3". As for finding proof, how can you suddenly find proof when the original owner is passed away and the paperwork long gone with him?

[PPPJJJFFF]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's a steep price tag for an undocumented car, but then look at the flip side, how's a Hemi Cuda conv without the original motor worth $1 million? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ] Correct documentation, an inspection from Galen Govier and of course, supply and demand. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Patrick

[raw muscle cars]

Question didnt all l89 have jl8 brakes and tapered axles from the factory? seems from research thats correct yes or no.

[Jeff H]

[ QUOTE ]
Question didnt all l89 have jl8 brakes and tapered axles from the factory? seems from research thats correct yes or no.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the L89 aluminum head option had nothing to do with the JL8 4 wheel disc brake option. The factory installed JL8 option had the tapered axles because they were just stock rear axle assemblies with the disc brake components added. The HD disc rear was a completely different rear assembly so no tapered axles.

[Kim_Howie]

Paper work doesn't mean anything to me any more. Prime example The black 67 435 Vette at BJ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif You have Very nice car period.

[@wot]

I'm not sure, but I don't believe the Hemi Dart that sold at BJ had any paperwork or photos either.

[raw muscle cars]

no it did not it was a rebody with no docs even the cobra that sold for 388,000 was nom. Kim is correct its a beautiful car but for 250,000 it should have docs now at 125,000 you got yourself one heck of a car. on the other hand the motion vette i bid on was fully documented and only went for 215,000 and that was a great car. i think we all agree nice car tall price for a car with no docs plain and simple.

[Stuart Adams]

We are always consumed at least weekly about the number and documentation game. I hope before I croke there is a data base in place to solve some of these issues, probably wishful thinking.

[COPO]

Congrats to the owner for a thoughtful response. I'm sure many would have taken it personally and the thread could have gone down hill rapidly. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[JQ]

I personally prefer documentation, but what if there's a desireable car with no paper work? Can past known car collectors / owners vouch for the car? Would the value of a car change or hold. John Q.

[raw muscle cars]

we all have talked this car to death. is anyone going to step up and buy it? the bidding has not broken 150,000 yet on e-bay. you would think if it is the real deal with all the camaro and collectors out there this car would be sold by now. if you post a hemi cuda or a yenko or a motion vette it be gone. to a purist there is no chance of this car bringing 250,ooo. id be willing to bet he owns this car for awhile.

[Jeff H]

Wow, talk about overreacting. Most high end musclecars don't sell on Ebay. Just last month there was a known 69 Yenko on Ebay and it didn't sell either. Most people want to take time to examine a car and if that requires getting a flight to go and inspect it, then usually that doesn't happen within a week's time. Even without documentation, the cost of this car plus the full restoration is easily over $125K so it really comes down to who wants a rare convertible like this. Most guys here would rather have a 427 COPO or Yenko so they have no interest in this car. Somebody will end up buying this car and be very happy with it.

[COPO]

Ebay is a great way to advertise a car and potentially sell it. As I mentioned in my previous post the three Baldwin Motion cars and the L-78 Camaro convert I bought all were on Ebay at one time, but were purchased long after the cars did not sell through the Ebay auction.

[Belair62]

Agree...E Bay is good advertising...

[raw muscle cars]

So after all the chat whats the verdict. Is it one of the 11 built.What would this car bring at Barrett in 06? I think its a sweet ride and the owner seems very honest about it and I agree you couldnt restore this car for that money. Is it a wise investment, I just may go look at it and see about buying it Im shore I would look good driving around town. What do you guys feel 150-200 is a good price or no.

[@wot]

Just my opinion: I would never consider a car for $200,000 plus without some documentation. If you buy this car, the burden of proof becomes yours in the future. There are many cars I would rather have other than an L89, and $200,000 will buy any of them with documentation, Good luck to the both the seller and, when sold, the buyer.

[Canucklehead]

Of all the cars that were produced, who keeps all their documentation anyways. I know i never did as back than it did'nt occur to me that it was nessasary as I know what it is and did'nt care about resale value, not thinking that the car would actually be worth more than what i paid for it in the future and im sure many felt this way. I think buying a car today with original documentation is fortunate but not the breaker of a deal. Just becouse the car dosent have the paperwork dosent mean that it's not right. He simply wasent fortunate to have had it saved. Also with all the technology with forgery today who really knows for sure. I would question ANY documentation with ANY car. Back than why would most people save it?. Is it real?, well thats for the buyer to decide, if it is ...good on you!!. The things that are not original to the car is explained and really is not a big deal (they can be changed and the current owner likes it that way, remember it's his car not yours, if you don't like it buy it and change it than you can be proud of YOUR car), although the tag issue is a bit disconcerning. It's a very nice car and a great resto, $250K....YIKES, but hey sombody will buy it eventually, don't forget someone paid 1mill+ on a 68 z rag!!!. Although if i could find an L89 pacer....hmmmmmmmmmmm!

[Charley Lillard]

Was this convert. owned by Merle Dupree ?
As far as I know, nobody has paid 1 mil for the 68 Z rag.

[Canucklehead]

I heard elsewhere the 68-z had exchanged hands.

[Mr. T]

Well it's up to 145K with 2 days left. Hmmmmmm.....

[TimG]

No paperwork is not the kiss of death if the car has some type of ownership history that can be traced and verified. I've owned cars where the paperwork is worth more than the car, a '67 L89 Corvette I sold in 1991 quadrupled in value shortly after the paperwork was found. It was not an original engine car and was thought to be a 435 horse steel head car. There are a number of L88's that have no paperwork and bring strong dollars, one in Dallas that is a low mile car would bring money comparable to a documented car. Do the paper trace, if it is made up, something will tip you off to this.

[69L89RAG]

Tim, you are right. I have gone back as far as I can and even have an insurance lawyer trying to get the NICB to search their records. Everything back to 1980 checks out. Unfortunately the owner in 1980 has since died so I am stuck at that point. I do know the name of the town that he purchased the car from.

[Lynn]

69L89RAG:

I feel for anyone trying to put together documentation for one of these cars. I have a 69 Z/28 X77 D80 car. It came originally with the ducted hood. How do I know? In 1974, this car was sitting behind a repair shop with the trunk open. Someone I know very well stole the air cleaner assembly out of the trunk. He sold it for $20. I ended up buying the car two years later. By then the hood was gone, but it still had the relay on the firewall, and the correct outside throttle arm to mount the switch. Now that 99% of the 69 Z's have the ducted hood, how do I prove mine came that way. Before the goofy federal privacy laws were enacted I went to the Oklahoma Tax Commission and had them run a title search. Cost $1. Normally the title search would take you back to the original owner, provided that the car spent its whole life in OK. Would even show the selling dealer. What a deal. Only problem was, they dead ended at 1978, two years after I bought it. Seems that they "lost" a great deal of info in 1978 when they changed over computer systems. I still think the info is there somewhere, but no chance they are going to let me dig through archived records, or computer search archived records.


I can't even tell what dealer my car came from because the dealer emblem had been removed by the time I got to it. I did carefully measure the holes and record that measurement before welding the holes up.

I bought a silver Z/28 in 1971. Had the POP in the glove box. I even knew the first owner casually. What did I do with the POP? I threw it away of course, as it had no value to me at the time. Car has since been totalled beyond repair, so no big loss in that case.

Back to the L89. No doubt a beautiful car. Really bothers me that it has a repo trim tag. I guess it helps that you have the original. I do agree that white top and interior is far better looking than the black would be. Just not enough contrast with the black. Also bothered by the statement that one owner bought the car without engine and trans, then just happened to get the originals. Back in the 70's not many guys would have been that keen on hunting down the original drive train. Still quite possible. I have a buddy that bought a 69 Z did some research, found the original owner who still had all the smog parts sitting in his shed. Gave them to him for free, because he was just happy to look at his old car. So, yes some of those stories are out there. At the very least, I would get
Affidavits from all the known previous owners to document what history you do have.

Good Luck. Sorry this is so long.

Lynn Bilodeau

[69L89RAG]

I hit the same problem with Michigan. They purge their records after 10 years.

I do have statements from the previous owners and they are happy to talk with a serious buyer.

[92646]

Charley, the Merle Dupree car was the red car with black Z/28 stripes that just changed hands a couple of weeks ago at some auction.

[BBIGG BLOCK 396]

I ran across the same thing on my car in Texas,only went back to 1974 and that was the guy I bought it from.I even offered to pay them if they would do some research into the storage boxes.The guy flat told me no that that was not a nice place to go where they have the records stored.I even offered to do the search and still pay! No dice couldn't even come close! So some of us will probably never know!But as long as you enjoy your car that is what counts to me.I don't have to worry about making any money on my cars because I will keep them till I am gone.Then my Wife,Daughter and Soninlaw can deal with them.At least my Soninlaw is intelligent and knows a lot about old cars,he also knows what I have tied up in them,hell he probably knows more about them than I do.Good to have someone like him taking care of my Babies!Sometimes I think he does a better job than I do. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

Bobby Dodson

[Mr. T]

Ok, the bid is currently at 185K. Will it reach the 200k mark before the auction ends, which is 10 hours away? This could be interesting.

[COPO]

I guess you are assuming those are all legit bids.

[Mr. T]

Assuming, yes.

[ssl78]

I always wonder why when a person is restoring a car of this caliber usually the pictures seem to start after dissasembly.I would think if it was my car with no docs but complete original drivetrain I would want to take pictures of the car prior to dissasembly. Those pictures I would think could be some documentation as of what the car started life as. I understand if the car was purchsed in pieces and no original drivetrain you might want to leave those pictures out. I am no way talking about the car in the thread I know nothing about it. It just seems there is a lot of original drivetrain cars that are restored and no original pictures.

[Mr70]

That's an interesting perspective.....

[af1fe]

John,
I totally agree. With this car since there was no documentation and an altered cowl tag I would have taken as many pictures for my own reference. And who is to say that there wasn't any taken, there might have been. I would have least showed the photos of the partial vin's under the cowl and fan box.
AF1-FE

[Steve Shauger]

John I was thinking the same thing. Your L78 pace car is an unrestored car, and contains a wealth of information and documentation. This information should be can be extracted prior to its restoration. Without documentation, full ownership history and without documenting the cars originality during the disassembly process, you leave yourself open to a lot of questions and not many answers. The provenance of a car is critical.

[69L89RAG]

I have plenty of pictures of the car before I restored. Problem is that the car was redone in 1985.

As far as legit bids go. I take huge offense when they question that. I would assume that they figure I have 25,000 friends viewing the auction to raise the hit count as well. To be honest with you I am disappointed in the bid count of 45 based on 25,000 + viewers of the auction. I guess the other thing that I don't understand is the car is not even at the reserve yet? I could see people be concerned if the car was over the reserve and getting pushed all over the place? I really felt that the car would be in 210,000 range by now.

As someone stated in the forum before. Most cars in this kind of price range will sell off of ebay. I expect that the purchaser would require an exstensive inspection before purchase. I have told numerous people who are serious buyers, and took the time to call and get their questions answered, that they can have the car inspected and talk to the previous owners before they purchase the car. Even if they win the auction I would allow them to back out of the deal after the inspection.

Ebay is a great way to advertise.

See attached Photo of what it was like when I got it.

[mike s]

i like that color alot better even though its probably not original

[69L89RAG]

I struggled with that for a long time. The car was actually Lemans Blue longer than it was Fathom Green.

My wife kept pushing for the green I think it was because she knew I would be more inclined to sell it if it was green than blue!!!

[COPO]

I didn't mean to imply there was organized shill bidders. Just meant that there are lots of people on Ebay that bid and have no ability or intention to buy hence they are not real bids. Happens all the time.

[mr396]

I THINK THE GREEN LOOKS GREAT.

[69L89RAG]

It happened to me on ebay more times than I would care to think about. I will say I have met the worst and the nicest people by dealing on ebay.

But it is no different then a regular Car Auction. I have seen curtains bidding. I had a friend that knew the auctioneer and while we were standing watching a Packard go up for auction the auctioneer called him by name and thanked him for his bid, 3 times and $100,000 increase. He did not even have a bidding account!!!! This was with one of the top Auto Auction houses!!!!!

[Jeff H]

Well, it made it to your $210K range which seems to be a decent number for the car. Hopefully one of the bidders will negotiate with you and get close enough to your selling price. And let us know if it sells so we'll know to look for it with fresh new documentation at BJ sometime in the future. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif