CHEVELLE LS6 BLACK 4SPD BENCHMARK

[raw muscle cars]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...518257&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6164&item=45315182 57&rd=1)
I LOOK AT THIS CAR MONTHS AGO IN VA ITS A DOCUMENTED BENCHMARK LS6 ALL ORIGINAL WITH TONS OF DOCS NOW SOME DAELER HAS IT I KNOW HE PAID 130,000 FOR IT. THE OWNER HAD 3 LS6 AND ALL WERE SICK. SOMEONE PLEASE BUY THIS CAR AND GET IT AWAY FROM A DEALER. ITS THE REAL DEAL AND WILL GO UP WAY IN PRICE IN YEARS TO COME. 19,000MI NEVER RESTORED. I HAD TO GO TO MCDS TO LOOK AT IT BECAUSE HE WAS SO PARANOID ABOUT ALL HIS CARS. SAVE IT AND LOVE IT BEFORE SOME GETS IT AND DESTOYES IT. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[raw muscle cars]

http://www.chevelles.com/feature/august2002.html
CHECK THIS OUT HERES HOW I FOUND IT

[Mr. T]

Now that is a down right wicked LS6! Beautiful!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/mistermister1/LS6.jpg

[raw muscle cars]

i know should of bought it then i guess i had a brain freeze
win some loose some still might snatch it at a buck 40 its even sweeter in person.

[Mr. T]

I just read the entire description on this LS6 on Ebay, and one of our members here is not going to like this part.

"ONE OF THE MAIN FEATURE CARS AT THIS YEARS BARRETT-JACKSON CAR AUCTION IS A 9,000 MILE LS6 CHEVELLE AND IT IS NOT HALF THE CAR OF THIS ONE"

Most of us know who this member is. Both of these LS6's are gems in my book. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[raw muscle cars]

so i take it you all think this car is way sweet and worth every penny.

[olredalert]

-------Guess you would be talking about me and the guy is a bit off but the 19000 mile car is a better car than I sold at B/J. Mine was a repaint and pretty much full detail and I believe that the 19000 mile car is original paint. My car may have had 9800 original miles but they were hard ones and the time between the miles was not good either (bad storage)..........Bill S

-------Just went and read the add and it does appear that he used my car as a punching bag doesnt it?

[hvychev]

Another car that has seen more a$$ than a toilet seat.

[Seattle Sam]

I don't mean to be picky, it is a beautiful car, but without the cowl induction, should this car have the dual snorkel air cleaner?
-Sam

[Belair62]

Question for Mr70 Rick....was this car at Midwest Car Exchange a few years back or was that a cowl car with stripe delete ?

[Mr70]

No Sam.
3 types of 1970 SS Chevelle air cleaners were possible.
One of these codes will be typed in Box 55 on the buildsheet.
DG-Cowl induction (flapper door Hood)
SS-Open element(Std. SS Domed Hood)
CO-Dual Snorkle (Std. SS Domed Hood)
*The Dual was at Factory discretion,owner or dealer did not determine it.

This is the Chevelle that Dean R. then Chad B. owned later.It's Verrrrry nice,and was on display at Vettefest November 02 next to Dennis Cumbys orig. LS6 Black,My Red L78,& Bobs Shadow Grey LS6.We had a nice end Square. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

This is NOT the Same Black Chevelle that was at Midwest CarExchange awhile back....holding my tounge here. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[jfkheat]

This car has been listed on Ebay a few times in the last year or so. It has been discussed here e couple times. Here is the website for the car. http://www.ls6benchmark.com/ The last time it was discussed here I said I had a problem with it's unrestored status. I still do. Here is a quote from the website: "Then the work began. I asked a very good friend of mine Rick Rozell, to come see the car and give me some advice as to where to start. Rick volunteered to help and we began to go through the whole car. After being parked for 25 years, I did not want to assume all was well with the motor, transmission, rear end, and undercarriage. We removed everything. When we opened up the motor, we noticed there was very little wear, as to be expected of an 18,000-mile car. Everything was solid. Other than major cleaning we found nothing wrong with the motor, transmission, and rear end. We took a section of the car at a time and did the same process throughout the entire car. This process required many tiresome hours, not to mention sore muscles from all the elbow grease applied." Sounds to me like the whole car was taken apart and detailed. To me that is not an unrestored car. Just my opinion.
James

[Bill Pritchard]

[ QUOTE ]
This is NOT the Same Black Chevelle that was at Midwest CarExchange awhile back....holding my tounge here. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Careful, Rick - Vise Grip marks on the tongue may leave a lasting impression http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

I was fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to be up close and personal with the 'Benchmark' LS6 car at Vettefest a couple years ago. I am by no means an expert, but I can say that it is indeed a gorgeous car, regardless of whether you consider the car original, survivor, semi-restored, or whatever. And as Rick says, it had plenty of good company at that show http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Belair62]

I don't know...if you get a car like that it may be prudent to tear down for inspection...cleaning everything while you are at it is probably a reasonable thing too....whatever you call it.

[sean70ss]

Does not sound restored to me. more like cleaned and preserved to the way it was and should be. When I think of a car restored every nut and bolt is finioshed or new. looks like a nice car. sean http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[olredalert]

--------Cleaning is one thing, repainting is another. That engine has been re-painted, period! Look at the engine shots on the website. I think we can all agree that re-painting is restoration, dont you think? No sour grapes here, just fact.........Bill S

[chads454Ls6]

The only car i have ever owned that was truely untouched was the 1970 Dick Harrell Camaro. That being said,I dont care what car you have,something has been touched,fluffed,or screwed with at one time! Everyone has there idea of what is unrestored. Everyone thinks they are an expert. Should a car be considered restored because the engine is painted! What are you supposed to do with a car that has been sitting for 30 years. Leave it alone! Expect that all is well with the motor,the valve springs and drive it? Why not just drag it around to car shows,without running it,and say how the car is unrestored,and be so afraid of running it! Alot of people that have answered this add normally have no clue what they are talking about!

[Belair62]

..one of the reasons i would/could never buy a true survivor...I could never leave it alone... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[olredalert]

------Hey, Chad,,,,,I agree with all that you say. Im just perplexed that this car should be referred to as the "benchmark car" when it has obviously had a bunch of fluffing done to it. The fluffing probably was necessary and I probably would have done it too, but there are more original LS6 cars right here on the board. Cars that would seem to deserve the term "benchmark" a bit more...........Bill S

[Belair62]

I agree.....Dennis Cumby's car is one example for a benchmark..

[chads454Ls6]

Bill,i agree with you on the website,benchmark is not a good choice of words. That was part of the sale of the car. I think the point of the wesite,when dean put that together,was to have a car that people can reference as a very original and correct car. Every number on that car was original. There are not alot of cars out there that can say that.

[Mr Yenko]

Lets not forget The Former Bill Bonham LS-6 which I feel is a stronger car and also The former Cranberry Red (Ausley LS-6) another fine example. These cars always go FORGOTTEN.
Just my thoughts...."MOF"

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

[ QUOTE ]
..one of the reasons i would/could never buy a true survivor...I could never leave it alone... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I am with you 100% there....Give it to me... there will no longer be a debate as to whether it is restored or not http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

I think most would agree that the car is a very nice example of a LS6 and certainly is very correct. The car definitly shouldn't be considered the "benchmark" or anything like that, as there are much more original cars to bestow with that word. The problem I have is with the whole "Diamond Certification" process. To my understanding it is 2 guys (Chris White and Jeff Dotterrer (sp?)) that have the ultimate say so on what is correct and what isn't. How can 2 guys possibly know every little thing that was done on 4475(LS6's) mass produced vehicles (not to mention all of the other 1970 Chevelles that are eligible to be certified)?? I would certainly think that something along the line of the NCRS would be a much better structure for judging(multiples of people) Not to mention might be less prone to any "politcal manipulations.." (not saying there are, but with only 2 guys the "buddy" factor probably comes into it more..) They will "certify" your car only once, but they will also come out and inspect your car (for a fee) and give you a report of what isn't correct for you to fix for "certification." How does that work??? We will only "certify" it once, but we will fly out numerous times and tell you what to fix for your one certification?? Also of all the low mileage, original cars out there, why certify the black car first? I am under the impression that Dean paid a nice sum to be the first "unrestored" car to be diamond certified, maybe no one else thought having the "diamond certification" was worth the money/effort. The main problem with the Chevelles right now is that there isn't a national show or judging body (outside of 2 guys) for correctness/originality. As such the cost to have a car professionally restored correctly doesn't get recouped. Unlike the Thourghbred class, the NCRS, or the Mopar crowd the Chevelles don't generate the additional money post restoration when they are certified and sold. IMHO the whole "Diamond Certification" process is more of a way to keep certain people considered "gurus" and money flowing..(ie: you need this part and that part..BTW..I have those parts or I can restore this part to a "diamond" level..).

[Charley Lillard]

I haven't dealt with Jeff much but I have dealt with Chris White. When I have a question about a LS6 or someone calls me wanting LS6 info or parts,I send them to Chris. He has the most knowledge that I know of. I would imagine they are the Diamond Judges because most Chevelle people feel they are the best qualified for the task. I also imagine it is a big volunteer effort on their part to do the judging. Most people don't want to judge as you spend the whole weekend working instead of enjoying all the cars. If you think you are qualified have you offered to be a judge ? I personally find your post very offensive.

I never said that they weren't qualified to be judges or that they weren't knowledgeable, nor did I say I was or even imply that I was. If you would re-read the post you will find that it is my OPINION not some "fact of record." (guess it was hard to read and separate the two since it is only 7am in CA) If you have a problem with the post then look at the facts...How many cars have been certified as compared to the number of cars out there? Wouldn't more people want their cars certified and be going that route if it was worth it and the money gained on the backside justified the expense. Why haven't some of the notable Chevelles here been diamond certified? The post never said the 2 guys running it weren't qualified, it was merely my opinion on a judging process, and should be taken as such. Personally I find your post offensive and while I know you are one of the "old guard" here, I'm still entitled to an opinion the last time I checked.

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

I will chime in with MY OPINION...

Fist of all, you have to realize that Jeff was one of or the head Judges for the now Defunct NCOA ( National Chevelle Owners Association ) one of it's original memebers, and an Extremely knowledgable perosn on all Chevelles! The NCOA in it's hey day was very well respected for it's judging of Chevelles done to the Nth degree. It was a time when there was actually an incentive to restore a car to that very level ( no longer )... you could finish a car and bring it to the NCOA Convention and get it judged on a 1000 point system, and it was a great system IMO. More than one judge looking at the car and they Knew what they were looking at. The Diamond Cert. program came from the NCOA days... why was this car one of the first or the first?... maybe as simple as the owner was the first to step up to the plate and ask/pay to have it certified.. Nobody chooses the car to certify... I know several guys that had their 66 and 67's Diamond Certified, most had this done some time ago when the NCOA was going strong! Had my current 66 been done at the time, I would have it done also... Do I believe Jeff knows more about what is right/correct about 66's than me?? Honestly No, I don't, but would let him inspect it and Certify it? Sure, (but not now) b/c that is the Only place/guy that does it... I don't know any group or judging panel that will always KNOW everything there is to know.. it's impossible to gather such a group of EXPERTS in one place to judge a car... be nice, just not practical. You have to play the hand you are given, and at this point Jeff and Chris are the Hand us Chevelle guys have. Personally, I won't have my car certified now that the NCOA is no longer.. just doesn't make sense to me.... My point is that we all have to realize, Nobody SELECTED any particular car for Diamond status.. the owner decides if He/She wants to have it done, wants to pay the fee... wants the Bragging Rights to say, " I scored 995" or whatever.. does it turn over to make the car worth more money at resale? To some it might.. we all put certain status/value on a certification... but right now, without a National Level Chevelle Organization that Judges Cars like NCOA did.. I see no benefit or Value in the cert., other than personal benefit. I tried to make my car as factory correct as I could, but most of it was for ME..

I don't think the Prior Inspection is for any other reason than trying to allow any possible mistakes to be fixed .... plain and simple.. I do the same with many many 66's that I know are being restored to factory original.. guys will ask me to look at a car or send pics of their Now Completed restoration and ask.. "what's wrong?, I want it right before I bring it to my first Show" I could just say, it looks fine, and not point out the mistakes I see, wait until they bring it to the Mid-Atlantci Chevelle Regional ( where it will at least get judged on a 300 point basis ) and then take all the points off when I judge... but why do that? Us true Hobbyist want everyone to make their car the best it can be.. I know I do.

This LS-6 is a fine example of TRUE MUSCLE, lets not get our panties in a bunch over terms used to describe it.

Sorry for the long wind.

Mike Crown

Mike,

Very well stated. I can remember looking at the green LS6 in Harry Snow's (one of the big NCOA guys and the founder of the Monaco orange "twin" COPO's)garage and discussing the merits of the NCOA and the Diamond award. Back then it seemed like a logical process to buy a Chevelle and restore it to that level, not only for the stisfaction and ego trip, but for the monetary rewards if the car was sold. I can also remember going to a couple of the conventions and being truly impressed with the judging and the whole process. When Mark had the NCOA and people went to the conventions and got their car certified it wasn't just 1 or 2 people. I know that Chris and Jeff are decent guys and they both have answered questions for me and I think in the process I've probably assisted them with info as well. However I think one of the biggest problems now facing the Chevelle community is the lack of willingness to share info or to form a group for judging of originality. I know whenever talk about a LS6 registry and for the sharing of LS6 knowledge comes up, Jeff and Chris are asked to partipate and while they sound encouraging nothing comes of it. I would have thought that Rick Nelson would have received more response than I (especially as I'm not involved and he isn't nearly as blunt and candid as I am..:) but still no luck.

I feel that the whole "Diamond certification," would have more validity if more were involved and there was a national orgainization to back it up. Again just my opinion. If others feel the same way maybe we can discuss the idea of trying to start something (again NOT saying I'm knowledgeable enough to judge,or more knowledgeable than anyone as I know some will likely "read" into that statement. I am just good with logistics and orgainization)

[Steve Shauger]

I have had many dealings with both individuals (Jeff & Chris)and have the utmost respect for their knowledge, integrity and contributions they make to the Chevelle hobby. I believe judging is the motivation behind hobbiest striving to make their cars better, as well as restoration shops higher standards.

Judging is not for everyone, but it also has pushed the parts reproduction business to higher standards. This ultimately means better quality parts (fit and finish)for all our cars, judged or not.

[Belair62]

Hey Greg...you have an opinion like everyone eles...but this doesn't sound like an opinion...it sounds like you are saying these guys are in it for some kind of monetary gain....thats an insinuation that we really don't need around here. You are basically calling them crooks or cheaters..and it sounds kind of lame...


[ QUOTE ]
the whole "Diamond Certification" process is more of a way to keep certain people considered "gurus" and money flowing..(ie: you need this part and that part..BTW..I have those parts or I can restore this part to a "diamond" level..).


[/ QUOTE ]

[LVCamaro]

I've dealt with both also, and I totally agree with your viewpoint, Steve. Both guys love the hobby and the cars, and I'd trust their Chevelle judgement unconditionally. Great guys! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

SS

[sean70ss]

So here is a question how many benchmark cars exist today? Sean

[olredalert]

-------Chris and Jeff are absolutely top shelf in my book as well. Both they and Rick were all a great help on the LS6 I just took to B/J, and never asked for anything in return!........Bill S

To Belair and anyone else:

I have never publicly nor privately called Chris White or Jeff Dotterer(sp?) a "crook" or a "cheat" as I hope my PM's pointed out. They are neither. The original post neither said or in mind implies that. For you to read into that is WRONG. It is a simple reality that the the 2 things (Diamond Certification and their other businesses) go hand in hand. If you are that naive to think that in the course of having a car certified that Jeff or Chris will not sell you a part or a restoration service then you need to rethink things. No one said it was wrong for them to do so, as it is business. I have never begrudened someone from making a living, whether car restorer, parts vendor or even crack dealer (if there wasn't a desire there wouldn't be a need..). In my opinion the Diamond certification has some things that need to be changed, just like it has some very good things. Just because I don't agree with the whole thing doesn't mean I'm "anti" Chris or Jeff. As far as the quote Belair pointed out...I personally don't think... IN MY OPINION the Diamond process is about parts and services, instead being about 2 decent guys that are the only ones stepping up doing something and about their love of Chevelles..BUT based on past conversations with both parties I can't help but think there is a definite tangent to providing the parts/services to meet their certification. I personally think it would be much better for the hobby and the Chevelle community to have a judging system along the lines of the old NCOA. This not only increses the validity of the certification but expands the knowledge base. Do I want to start it..not really, but would assist others in anyway possible..would I back it..absolutly. I am open to any idea that furthers the hobby and promotes positive growth in knowledge. Certainly Chris and Jeff would be included (I hope they would as they ARE extremely knowledgeable)and it would be their call to participate or not.

I personally do not agree with people saying they are "historians" or completely in it for the hobby and then not being completely candid with ALL info. (forget me and remember that there are tons of other Chevelle enthusiast this applies to) This goes not only for them but for others in the Chevelle community. If you are a "historian" then you share info as it promotes the hobby. You do not horde it. I do not agree with telling folks you are backing projects and then not following through, especially when the projects are for the good of the hobby..again not my gripe on a personal level but as a general. This applies to so many people in the Chevelle community..many of them members here. Whether Gregory S. Carlson gets info or a "certification" (never have and don't ever care to) has nothing to do with the intent or contents of the post. It was merely my opinion of a process.

Respectfully

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
the whole "Diamond Certification" process is more of a way to keep certain people considered "gurus" and money flowing..(ie: you need this part and that part..BTW..I have those parts or I can restore this part to a "diamond" level..).



[/ QUOTE ]


This was what I was talking about...I probably wasn't the only one who interpreted it that way....Thanks for the Pm's.

[DarrenX33]

[ QUOTE ]
the whole "Diamond Certification" process is more of a way to keep certain people considered "gurus" and money flowing

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg I'd have to agree here. Read it again. Perhaps that's not how you intended it to be read.

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

Don't make me turn this car around because I will! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sean70ss]

Ok now that all that is out of the way how mnay "REAL" benchmark cars are out there? sean

[Steve Shauger]

Why don't you call the judges (Jeff or Chris)mentioned previously for that info.

[mmcporter]

Bill, since your BJ LS6 was so "crappy", maybe you should donate it to me so that it's off the streets. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sean70ss]

I do not know jeff or chris my question was aimed at the the members of this site. I honestly have never seen a true 100% bone stock LS6 all original car so I asked the question how many are out there. Sean http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[olredalert]

--------Geez, Id do that but, damn, that no-reserve policy at B/J killed your chances!!!!!........Bill S