old school tunnel ram and carbs question

[musclcar]

i'm about ready to put my edelbrock TR1-X tunnel ram on my sbc and need a few questions answered.was there or is there a spacer or adapter to mount the carbs sideways instead of inline.the carbs i'm going to run are 1850 holley's now i'm trying to get a period correct look is this the correct carb used back in the 70's.on these 1850's i was told i need to run a balance tube for the secondary diaphram so to open correctly.was this how they were set-up back then or did they just run independent of each other. now the fuel line routing i'm currently running the stock 69-70 Z28 metal fuel line for holley carbs.this had a 1/2 line from pump to a brass fuel block then (2) 5/16th lines one to each bowl.i was thinking of running rubber hose from that fuel block to each carb does that sound period correct or is there another way. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[whitetop]

I have set up 2 TR systems for myself and one for a friend who has a street rod. Take this info or leave it but it works. I got this info by trial and error and talking with guys who actually run these cominations on the street and who actually don't LIE to you telling how good their combination runs on the street. I think only 2 out of 10 TR systems I see on street cars actually work decent. Here is the engine out of my mustang-see attachment.

1. Get rid of the 1850 4160 carbs and the sideways linkage. They were hardly ever run on the street in the day and were mostly race car only. Those 4160 double pumpers are way too much for any small block on the street even if they are vac. sec. You will end up with gas washing down your cylinder walls and will be rebuilding the engine by the end of the summer. Run two Holley 4150 carbs with 450 cfm inline. (600x2 =1200 cfm is way too much). I had two of the 600cfm 4150 carbs on my car when I got it. It ran o.k. but the 450's were way better and the 390's I finally ended up were the best. I think the very best carb is Holley 4150 390 cfm #6299 (with no choke) and vacuum secondary. That is what is in my pics. 6299 are discont. by Holley but you can find them on ebay just about every day of the week. Do not run the 390 carb Holley still on the books. It is an emision carb. I used the balance tube kit for the v secondaries and it made the carbs run incredible-great as a matter of fact. The balance tubes were not availble in early '70's but came out in '74 ish period. I'm very picky about being period correct but would run the tubes anyway.

The trick to getting a tr to run good on the street is lots of torque. Get this by running the heaviest flywheel you can find, smallest tube headers, and highest number rear end gears like 4:11 etc. Anything less than 4:11 forget it.

I'm running an early 6530 Moroso y-block with 3/8 mainline and two 5/16 rubber lines to each carb. I've never seen guys back then run any type of OEM fuel blocks etc. Not to say that someone did. Just from looking at 5000 old magazines amd seeing original cars. Also a red Holley street electric fuel pump that puts out around 5 psi. Don't go much over that or you will be washing down your cylinder walls. The blue pump is overkill for the street. I've seen some guys just run a mchanical pump. The only problem is you will be cranking the engine alot each time to get it started. With my electric pump I turn it on for 5-6 seconds and it fills up the fuel bowels and then turn the keys and the engine kicks right off. I had the mechanical fuel pump only at one time on my car and I was always cranking the starter.

Best compression ratio for the street with a tr is 9 1/2 to 10:1. You also need to run a very mild cam that produces lots of vacuum. RV style cams work great. You need lots of vaccuum to pull that air/fuel down that long intake at low rpms. If you are running a rumpity rump cam it's probably wrong.

Also offenhauser made the best tr for the street amd most street freaks of the day (who new better) ran offie. That is what is on my mustang-which was built in '72-'74. Offenhauser Tr's for sbc and sbf came out in 1970 anyway and you can still buy them from offie through summit. I know 3 guys that run offie tr on their sb chev's and swear by them. Also a magazine did a tr comparison backin the late '70's and the offies came out on top for the street. Had to do with top plenum size and tube length and diamater.
I have to go back and see my notes etc. There is alot more info.
Dave

[budnate]

WOW..great stuff Dave..I snagged a set-up this last fall and have been wanting to read up on proper tuning...please keep sharing your "tune tips"...I really need them as I have never set one up before.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Salvatore]

Dave, You sound right on. Small Carbs that run 85-90% efficient is much better than big carbs running 60% efficient. Need steep gears and heavy flywheel. My friend Pete used to run a 50lb. wheel with a 6.17 ring and pinnion and a 3.00 first gear in a Nash 5 speed. Car was 280 cubes in a 57 2 door wagon that weighed about 3400lbs. 10.82 @ about 130mph back in 1979. Carbs were inline (660) center squirters with an Engle roller cam. (G/MP) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[JoeG]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif engine whitetop--Are you running a straight linkage ie.-1 to 1 ratio or progressive setting on your linkage

[Mr70]

I'm not really up on street engines,but that looks like one hell of an engine whitetop. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Salvatore]

I here Marlin is trying to sneak a tunnel ram on his car to run Frankie. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[budnate]

[ QUOTE ]
I here Marlin is trying to sneak a tunnel ram on his car to run Frankie.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really...well I will ship mine back to Frankie...

[Salvatore]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif We got something going here!

[hvychev]

LOL! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Don't tempt me! It has taken me everything that I got to not day 2 my car!

[JoeG]

I'll back you up Frank on anything but the Shrunken Head.......

[budnate]

will even sneak a set of Southside Machine bars in for ya Frankie...or if you are really feeling Wild... I think I located a set of the lakewood bars for leaf spring cars the style that looked like the ones for Chevelles...the two bars and all the little angle pieces welded in..

[hvychev]

Bud I have all the bolt on pieces for a Day 2 Deuce! Vintage Lakewood slapper bars with the correct rubber bumpers, NOS M/T valve covers with T-bolts, NOS Edlebrock Turantula intake, orange blade flex a lite fan blade, ET finned diff cover, need to get some headers and a Hurst T handle shifter, and lets not forget the CRAGERS!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[whitetop]

I'm running Weiand straight linkage. Not progressive. I think the part number is 4011 or something like that. Both of my carbs come out to 780 cfm which even on a little 289 is more than is recommended but it is the smallest 4150 carb available from Holley.
BTW Running a Crane cam, very mild. But it produces a ton of vacuum and torque which is needed to run a tr on the street.

[musclcar]

your getting me confused now http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gifyou mention a 4150 carb "double pumper" then you mention a 4160 "vacum secondary.so what is better for my tunnel ram double pumpers or vacum secondary carbs. i don't think there is room on a TR1-X for 2 inline double pumper carbs.the vacum secondary carbs i've got now the bowls are seperated by less then a 1/2 inch between the front and rear carbs. so your saying a 600 cfm vacum secondary carb will be to much and i should go down to a 450cfm vacum secondary carb for better results.i bought 2 matched 600 cfm vac sec. carbs off of ebay for a good price and all they need is a rebuild. the camshaft that's in my motor right now is the GM #140 solid lifer cam and my compression is 11.5:1 and my rear gear is 3.73.

[Salvatore]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Don't tempt me! It has taken me everything that I got to not day 2 my car!

[/ QUOTE ] CHICKEN! buck,buck,buck,buck! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Salvatore]

I don't think 2-600's are too big. The cam sounds appropriate. Need some good gears. JMO Sam

[BBIGG BLOCK 396]

Correct me if I am wrong,but I always heard that vacuum secondary carbs did not work on tunnel ram setups because the tunnel ram decreases the vacuum on the engine!I remember a long time ago that my brother had to change out his carbs to non vacuum secondaries in order to get it to run correctly.

Bobby Dodson

[JoeG]

Motion had set up a 454 ZLX tr /(2)600cfm--513rear/hone---
Sam your right with the steeper gears with 1200cfm---But ....as Whitetop pointed out the smaller carbs just make life easier on the street--you could spend more time cruisin an less time tuning---JMHOX2----

VAC/MEC SEC---Would depend on cam/vac venturi size on carbs etc as whitetop pointed out and tr design--Whitetop seems to have a winning combo and you go with what works with your mods---

[JoeG]

Here's a photo of an edelbrock tr/(2) 600cfm carbs-str. linkage----From that Motion car---maybe this will help--Just some info http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/attachments/128015-trtrtrtroooooooooooooo.jpg

[whitetop]

"72 Camaro with sbc and TR-1X tunnel ram. I made a mistake on the carbs. The 1850 are 4160 models. I thought you had the 4700 series 4150 model. I had a TR-1X and the carbs fit fine inline. Personally I think the carbs look like crap when they are sideways. Reminds me of ET's Head. Also was there not a cartoon character called erasor head?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-4/700182/File0044.jpg

[Belair62]

Whitetop....phone home http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[whitetop]

[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I am wrong,but I always heard that vacuum secondary carbs did not work on tunnel ram setups because the tunnel ram decreases the vacuum on the engine!I remember a long time ago that my brother had to change out his carbs to non vacuum secondaries in order to get it to run correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was he possibly running too wild of a cam that produced no or little vacuum. Car Craft in the late '70's had a very extensive TR setup article for the street. All the pros who they interviewed recommended a VS carb. I think the jist of the article was for the street a VS only used as much gas as needed while a mechanical secondary gives you the gas whether you wanted it or not. I've also talked with many people who had cars like the Camaro posted above and asked them and it always came back to VS were best and that is what runs best on my car.

You have to remember we are talking street cars here with driveability as the goal. More show than go so to speak. Not a street/racecar. I was more concerned about my car restarting at a cruise and not popping/spitting etc. I am not concerned about the power.

[whitetop]

Chuck
The 600 vac sec carbs maybe alright for your application because you have 50+ more cubes than mine. I would try them and if they don't tune out right go with the 450's. A friend of mine who built a streetrod with a 350 TR had two 600's like your but later put on my 450's and liked them better. Of course his engine was no where near as radical as yours. I think his had 9 1/2:1 Compression. The 450's are not vac secondary but the motor seemed to like the smaller cfm.

Like Sam said you need to increase your gear ratio in the rear. You may have a bog/hesitation when leaving. I can't over emphasize enough if you want to run one of these on the street you need as much vacuum and torque as you can put into the combination. You will not beleive how much torque you will loose from running a TR. Remember these were designed for the strip with cars leaving at 6-8K rpm. My friend who has the street rod only has something like 3;73(?) also but he is running a 5 speed and had a very low gear placed into it for first.

[BBIGG BLOCK 396]

The car my brothr owned did have a pretty radical solid lift cam! That could be the reason he could not use the vacum sec. carbs.Wish I had some pics of it,it was a 55 chevy 2 door sedan,straight axle,m22 4 speed.That thing would fly,or at least it seemed like it would.I think I was about 12 when he had that thing,I used to love to go riding in it.Especially the way he drove,he only knew one thing and that was gas pedal to the floor.

Bobby

[JoeG]

Whitetop--Is your car up and running with that engine you showed???

[whitetop]

It was when I first got it. The engine is the pics is the same as when I got it componet wise. I had it rebuilt and I only changed the carbs and added an electric fuel pump and the balance tubes. I drove it for about 4 months and that when I got most of the kinks straightened out. But had serious issues with leaking brakes, leaking rear main seal and freeze plugs that were weeping etc.(it sat in the original owners parents house since late '70's) I have since tore it apart and it is currently getting the body work done and probably will be repainted later this year. I was trying to save the paint (endless lines, freak drops etc) but the original '70's metalflake was cracking way too much. So late last year I sent it to the body shop.
However I'm not updating the car at all. It will still have it's 15x4 and 15x10 Cragars, Hooker 4 into one sidepipes, sun gauges, crushed velevet interior etc. Everything on the car was chromed including the rear end, driveshaft, springs etc.

[JoeG]

Hope you post it when it's done--Luv that old 'skool' stuff- http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif----Didn't your car have some Lace-work in the paint--

[whitetop]

No lace but endless lines and freakdrops.

http://ourworld.cs.com/davamil/myhomepage/auto.html

[JoeG]

I remember I liked the way he kept the stang body basically stock---Are you gonna try to dupicate the paint??

[hvychev]

Man Dave I hope they can redo that paint cause it's http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

How does the car sound with that motor and the side pipes?

[55chevy]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Don't tempt me! It has taken me everything that I got to not day 2 my car!

[/ QUOTE ]

Frank... It's yours... Day 2 it man.... Day 2 it!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[DirtyS]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a photo of an edelbrock tr/(2) 600cfm carbs-str. linkage----From that Motion car---maybe this will help--Just some info http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/attachments/128015-trtrtrtroooooooooooooo.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is a Motion car it really makes me question some of the mystique and values floated around for them.

Looks like something the typical backyard guy would do with some rubber fuel line.

Not impressed.

[whitetop]

[ QUOTE ]
If that is a Motion car it really makes me question some of the mystique and values floated around for them.

Looks like something the typical backyard guy would do with some rubber fuel line.

Not impressed

[/ QUOTE ]


Part of that is it was the '70's and the detail was not as big a concern as today. Also you did not have all the hi-tech billet do-dadds and plumbing back then, you had to fabricate your own. Also to be honest Motion was not known for their neatness. I saw one pic and they added traction bars and spray painted them after instalation and had overspray all over the rearend and gas tank. On the V-8 Vega 454 that Motion did they just took a sledghammer and beat back the firewall. I think a dealership car built today along those lines would have had a custom firewall built IMHO because we have higher standards.

BTW, my mustang TR had a Moroso y-block mounted on a custom stainless steel mounting bracket. Looked much better than Motions setup but I have seen worse than Motions setups in old pics.

In regards to the rubber lines that is what people ran back then. Only the top fuelers and f/c's ran stainless steel braided lines. I started to see SSBL really taking off on street cars starting in the the mid '70's.

[Mr70]

Those were some primitive days & crude techniques.
Both at the speedshop AND Factory back then.

[rat tuned]

we have built 2 tunnel ram street cars. car 1 was a 68 firebird with a 400" chevy 10.8-1 comp with AFR heads and a comp 294S sam. 10" converter and 3.73 gears. used a weiand street ram with 2 rebuilt 450 mechanical holleys. all we did was drop the power valves lower because of a lack of vacuum because of cam. this car ran awesome and was wicked responsive even with the automatic. never got it to the track because a professional football plater saw it in front of the garage and bought it. car was an absolute blast the short time we had it.
second car was a 68 camaro with a 9-1 454 and LS-6 mechanical cam. 4-speed and 3.73 gears. same weiand street tunnel ram but 600 vacuum carbs. car was pretty mismatched but ran real good for what it was. we ended putting screws in the secondary linkage and it seemed to help but was NOT the way to do this. car looked tough and was a blast to drive. mike

[JoeG]

If that is a Motion car it really makes me question some of the mystique and values floated around for them.

Looks like something the typical backyard guy would do with some rubber fuel line.

Not impressed.

[/ QUOTE ]

The photo wasn't really meant to impress anyone Dirty, it was just shown as a reference to a TR setup---Those rubber fuel lines are industry approved gas lines that would have been used in a line splice especially were vibration and stress were a factor-----A lot of Motion photos weren't staged ie guys in white coveralls installing engines with scrubbed clean equipment--the photos were taken as the work was being done--that's what I always thought was so http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif about those old photos of speed shops --Anyway, I'm not here to defend anyones table manners or lack of but you should be impressed by Motion and other HI-PO shops that built cars that set records and ruled the streets in a time were grease under your fingernails was just part of the job------------- http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[55chevy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a photo of an edelbrock tr/(2) 600cfm carbs-str. linkage----From that Motion car---maybe this will help--Just some info http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/attachments/128015-trtrtrtroooooooooooooo.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is a Motion car it really makes me question some of the mystique and values floated around for them.

Looks like something the typical backyard guy would do with some rubber fuel line.

Not impressed.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't need to look pretty to go FAST! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[RichSchmidt]

That was pretty much standard fare back in the 70's.I had the article of Grumpy Jenkin's 70 camaro prostocker from the 1970 issue of Hot Rod,and it mentions how the car was plumbed with"Neoprine" hose,as if this was some kind of state of the art feature at the time.The trick record holding prostock fuel system consisted of some 5/8" metal home heating tubes soldered into the top of the tank with rubber hoses running to 2 Carter fuel pumps,the same kind you could buy for $9 at the local parts store at the time,and the engine compartment fuel lines were all done with hardware store grade brass fittings and rubber hose.This was state of the art back then.This could also be why the Grumps Monza burned to the ground so fast a few years later,but the fancy fuel systems we know today wouldnt be around for years to come.

The real tuth about most supercars was way too sugar coated.Most of these highly valued supercars had sledge hammer adjustments done to fit oversized tires,and exhaust systems,and you have to remember that these super valueable Motion supercars were about as pleasant to drive on the street every day as having a prostock race car with mufflers.That is what made them so valuable,the race car mystique.In reality,they were hard to drive tempermantal beasts that were broken down more then they were running,or at least that was the case of you actually drove yours the way they were intended to be driven.Most of them were either found burned alongside the road because their owners grew tired of their beastly ways,or were converted to full on race cars and evolved off the streets.Thats just how it was.The fact was that the Motion car wasnt anything that the average kid couldnt have built for half the price at the time in his back yard with hand tools.In reality, even the winningest of prostock cars from that era would be nothing more then a bunch of cobbled together parts that wouldnt pass saftey inspection at even the most backwoods track in rebel country today.Back then,they were record hold state of the art race cars.

[hvychev]

Hmmmmm.....very well said IMO.

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
fuel bowels

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you mean bowls . 'Bowels' are a part of the human anatomy, just below the belt loops and out back.

Seriously though, that is a fascinating essay on tunnel ram set-up. Makes me want another one. No wonder my 327 ran like s__t 25 years ago when I borrowed a buddy's setup! Too much carb (600's).

[JoeG]

Yeah---Weren't those Very http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif times---

[Plowman]

I've come into this thread a little late, but wanted to add a few of my thoughts.

I've run several 1850 carbs with both tunnel and x-ram intakes. I've found that street driving required me to restrict the liquid line in the metering block. Since the 600 carb was factory tuned to provide idle- we'll say for 8 cyl. in this case, multiple carbs will then be very rich at idle- beyond the adjustment of the idle mixture screws. With this done, the 1850's can be tuned with conventional methods to run very well on the street. I'm willing to discuss this more if anyone is interested.

As for the vacuum secondaries, needing to be changed I’ll have to disagree. Although tunnel ram does lower the engine vacuum, the secondaries operate off of venturi vacuum. They are completely tunable on tunnel ram. I also think they help in making a tunnel ram engine more streetable because they only open X amount from the venture signal. Mechanical secondaries can give too much CFM too easily.

I actually like the look of sideways mounted carbs. When/If you remove the jet plate and add a secondary metering block to an 1850 carb (to allow standard jet changes) you can no longer mount the carbs inline. Sideways mounting also helps with fuel slosh.

Plugs do tend to foul with multiple carbs due to fuel puddling in the intake, but a vintage MSD 7A will remedy that. I’m sure any hot ignition system today would work as well- I just like the old MSD 7 before they went to the 7AL.

[musclcar]

when you say "restricting the liquid line " are you talking about lowering the fuel pressure down to control flooding by adding a pressure regulator ?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif.also the secondaries will work correctly without the vacum line connecting them together http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[whitetop]

The only other problem I don't like about running the carbs sideways is you have to cut an extra wide hole on the hood the clear the carbs and linkage. The extra large hole looks odd when the hood is closed (or open for that matter).
From your first thread it sounds like you want to make the car period correct. I would say only 5 out of every 100 street cars ran the carbs sideways. You can do what you want.

In terms of the vacuum secondaries There was a huge differnce when I ran the balance tube kit...for the better.

[Plowman]

Unfortunately, I was in the ER and just got released. I thought about this thread while I was in there and I'm glad to reply. The liquid line in the metering block is set up for 8 cylinders, so by having 2 1850s on there, there will be enough liquid to feed 16 cylinders. By restricting the metering blocks to only feed 4 cylinders each, you have 8 cylinders being fed and idle will not be super rich-very streetable.
The vacuum secondardies will work fine by themselves. They are adjustable by changing the springs in them.
If you have more questions, maybe I could post a picture of them.

[budnate]

a question..when we buy these so called matched tunnel ram holleys with the kit like from Summit are they not metered correctly..I was getting a good handle on this until the last few posts...

Thnx Bud

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
The only other problem I don't like about running the carbs sideways is you have to cut an extra wide hole on the hood the clear the carbs and linkage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leave the hood off and chrome the hood hinges and springs. Then drive around with the hood hinges in the "open" position. Anyone remember that? A noisy gear drive adds to the impact. Suddenly it's 1979.

[whitetop]

Bud
The "matched" carbs from Summit/Jegs do not have anything special done to them. What Summit or Jegs mean by matched is they are the same part number http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ..and I'm being serious.

Plowman, I did not have to change the springs in my vacuum secondaries but in my friends street rod we did experiment with various springs. You mention you can run the vacuum secondaries by themselves(meaning without the vacuum balance kit). I found my car ran much better with the vacuum balance kit-because both secondaries open and close at the same time. I have yet to talk with someone who's engine ran worse with them. Of course everybodies setup is different...and some people just get lucky. I've talked to some people who took 450 holleys out of the box and they ran perfectly with no tuning whatsoever. Some people I talked with changed just about 3/4 of the components on the carbs and they still would not run right.

You talk about blocking metering plates etc to decrease fuel flow richness. I did that by running small 390's. I don't think my small 289 with metered down 600's would have run as good as the 390's.

[rat tuned]

has anyone ran a 6,000 rpm oval port big block with 450 holley's? it would seem to me that 900 cfm would still be plenty. i suppose the 1200 vacuum carbs would work as the carbs would deliver what the engine needed. i'm curious how my 454 oval port would respond as it has a 10" converter and 4.10 gears. i know i like the 450 carbs. mike

[whitetop]

There was a '66 Chevelle in Car Craft in late '80's that ran 450's and the guy said they ran good.

450's would be fine for street cruising in a 454.

[Plowman]

No argument with the balance tube Whitetop. They will certainly make the transition of the secondaries opening smoother. It should not influence the way they close since they close mechanically.

To clarify the liquid line mod, it is not changine the fuel pressure to the carbs, but restricting the fuel flow through the metering block circuits. If you remove your front fuel bowl and then take the metering block out and look on the back side that faces the carb body you will see the liquid line. It can eaily be identified by the only pair of small circuits (holes) which are side by side. One pair on the right and one on the left. It is towards the bottom of the block.

Restricting the liquid line is a tune I like to do on the popular 1850 600 cfm carbs. I did run a pair of 390's on a X-Rammed 327 with the 327/350hp cam. When we swapped them out for a pair of 600's I modified there was a noticable improvement in drivability on the street and ET at the strip. I'm not trying to say it would improve on every setup. I did have better result with 600's over stock 390's on the cars I tuned.

The old 4295 Holley's that were the compliment to the Z28 crossram were 585cfm each and is a lot closer to 600 than 450 is. I think 'ol Smokey U knew a little more about carbs than I do and I'll take his professional opinion that that is the best setup for a little 302.

Summit and Jeggs sell their popular multible carbs kits with smaller carbs than that- so it certainly can work either way. Some like to use smaller carbs, I like to use bigger ones.

I would encourage Musclcar to try and mod the 1850's he has and see what he thinks.

[budnate]

hey Plowman can you show me a pic of how you like to restrict the fuel on the block...it makes perfect sense this is why we have such a hard time with these at idle on the street...whitetop I kinda figured you were going to say that about the matched carbs..."and this complete set-up comes with our special matched tunnel-ram holleys".. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif remind me to take summit off the christmas card list for next year...

Bud.

[budnate]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only other problem I don't like about running the carbs sideways is you have to cut an extra wide hole on the hood the clear the carbs and linkage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leave the hood off and chrome the hood hinges and springs. Then drive around with the hood hinges in the "open" position. Anyone remember that? A noisy gear drive adds to the impact. Suddenly it's 1979.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/130467-pimpvert.jpg

[Plowman]

I'm going to try to get a picture up to show the restriction. I enjoyed the picture you posted.

[JoeG]

This is a good thread--Good info all around---I dug thru some of my stuff to dig out a Motion Member--The Ridge Runner----I'm just showing the other side of the coin--- http://www.yenko.net/attachments/130538-ridgerunner.jpg The Ridge Runner Ram

[JoeG]

-- http://www.yenko.net/attachments/130539-ridgeengine.jpg

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.yenko.net/attachments/130467-pimpvert.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhh, close but no cigar...

[budnate]

80's enough for ya..???

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/130751-78camaro.jpg

[Plowman]

Here is a pic of a metering block. I tried to show the liquid line restricted. You can see a non restricted line on the other side of the block. The pencil is pointing to the restricted line. I used a an 0.018" steel wire and bend it in a "U" shape so that it fits in both ports. It is retained by the metering block flat gasket.

I get the wire from just about any parts tag, they all seem to use this wire and are readily available in most shops. If you can change a powervalve, you can do this mod.

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/130911-600m2.jpg

This shows the wire installed in the two holes the pencil is pointing to as well as another similar wire not installed.

[budnate]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a pic of a metering block. I tried to show the liquid line restricted. You can see a non restricted line on the other side of the block. The pencil is pointing to the restricted line. I used a an 0.018" steel wire and bend it in a "U" shape so that it fits in both ports. It is retained by the metering block flat gasket.

I get the wire from just about any parts tag, they all seem to use this wire and are readily available in most shops. If you can change a powervalve, you can do this mod.

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/130911-600m2.jpg

This shows the wire installed in the two holes the pencil is pointing to as well as another similar wire not installed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey thnx..great idea I like it!! easy to change sizes to..we have some stainless I am going to measure it.

[DOCS427]

the best carbs are 660 center squirters all others feed most of the accelerator shot down 2 cylinders and starve the other 2 hence the bogging problems inherent with these setups the 660s sqirt a 4way shot down the center of the carb and tend to charge the cylinders evenly. They cost a mint now ebat runs 500-600 apair used i dont think holley makes them anymore. They were designed for dual 4 applications. usually only double pumpers are mounted sideways since they dont fit ny other way vac sec carbs are usually mounted inline.

[musclcar]

okay finally i'm going to put the tunnel ram on this weekend !!.one question though ?? is what is a good baseline carb set-up [i.e] jets,power valves and pump cams for these 600 vac secondary carbs.right now on my motor i'm running a very nicely tuned holley 750 DP,it has these parts in it http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gifrimary - #76 jets, #8.5 power valve, #31 squirter and orange pump camsecondary - #80 jets ,#35 squirter and red pump camso what size jets will work i know the power valve will stay at 8.5 and the pump cams orange "maybe" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Plowman]

How did you make out this weekend working on the tunnel ram? Jets stay the same size. Remove choke and choke plates on each carburetor (if it backfires they will flip 180 degrees).

[musclcar]

well i went to a #64 jet,#31 squirters,white pump cams,a #9 secondary plate and it seems to work good.there is no choke plate in either carb since i live in sunny so. california.i might try a 50cc reo pump though and see what it'll do because of the large plenum and long runners to the intake valves.also my dual carb linkage is set up right now for both to open at the same time instead of progressive.again this combo seems to be working quite well and feels really responsive when i hit the loud pedal.my friend did a really nice job in restoring the intake and zinc chromating the carbs http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[tjs44]

hey guys,I have custom set of center squiters that are too big for my motor.They have dominator bowls and F&R metering blocks if anyone can use them.ONLY a couple pulls on the dyno.Email if interested before I put them on ebay.Tom

[musclcar]

here is a pic of the engine with the edelbrock TR1-X tunnel ram and holley 600 vac secondary carbs http://upload.79camaro.com/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=328&fullsize=1

[bowtieboy396]

Hey everyone, wanted to start with saying this has been a really helpful string. Im a younger guy, bought a chevelle when i was 17 and now just deciding its time to dump some cash into it. Kicking around my friends garage is a rectangle port tunnel ram, i like the look of tunnel rams, but i have oval port heads. i read somewhere recently that you can use the rectangle port intake with matching gaskets on oval port heads.. any ideas or comments here guys?

[Supercar_Kid]

You can run square port intakes on oval port heads, I've seen it done with success, but it is certainly not the "optimal" situation. Square port intakes are designed for square port heads, and are typically higher rise and often times of open plenum (single plane) design. These high rise and/or single plane intakes are a poor match not only in port type but overall design for the smaller, less flowing oval port heads. I'd say you can get away with it if it's a dual plane fairly low-rise square port intake going on oval port heads, but if it's a high rise single plane or something really high rise like a tunnel ram I'd say forget it. It'll give you more headaches and rob you of more power than the "cool looks" will ever reward you with. Just my opinion, I'm sure others will chime in.

[Bob Hollinshead]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DirtyS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a photo of an edelbrock tr/(2) 600cfm carbs-str. linkage----From that Motion car---maybe this will help--Just some info &lt;img src=&quot;http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; /&gt; http://www.yenko.net/attachments/128015-trtrtrtroooooooooooooo.jpg </div></div>

If that is a Motion car it really makes me question some of the mystique and values floated around for them.

Looks like something the typical backyard guy would do with some rubber fuel line.

Not impressed. </div></div>

Those look like the 750 mechanical secondary tunnel ram carbs that they don't make anymore, see the fuel line leading up to the passenger side.

[Bob Hollinshead]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bob Hollinshead</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DirtyS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a photo of an edelbrock tr/(2) 600cfm carbs-str. linkage----From that Motion car---maybe this will help--Just some info &lt;img src=&quot;http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; /&gt; http://www.yenko.net/attachments/128015-trtrtrtroooooooooooooo.jpg </div></div>

If that is a Motion car it really makes me question some of the mystique and values floated around for them.

Looks like something the typical backyard guy would do with some rubber fuel line.

Not impressed. </div></div>

Those look like the 750 mechanical secondary tunnel ram carbs that they don't make anymore, see the fuel line leading up to the passenger side. </div></div>

Another clue-see there is no fuel transfer tube from primary to secondary, also the mechanical secondary linkage. I don't think this was as simple of a setup as originally thought earlier in this thread. Those aren't vacume secondary 600 carbs on there and I would be they are the 750 tunnel rams carbs that you can no longer buy. I bet that engine hauled ass!