Muncie shifter handle 70 chevelle

[P.J.]

Ok finally got home and on my own computer, so I will ask for your opinion again about this shifter handle. The assembly manual shows that shifter handle (2)in the attachment shows a number 3973864 this number is stamped on the bottom of the shifter handle. The note beside the part number says M20 M21 M22 W/Bucket seats.Does this note mean
that all bucket seat chevelles came with this shifter handle unless you ordered a council.Then GM would of instaled the council shifter 3973865 leaver which has no bend?
Thanks for your opinion.
for some reason I cant load the page from the assembly manual.
suprss70

[ORIGLS6]

Check out the pix attached here.

[ORIGLS6]

Another view.

[BBIGG BLOCK 396]

I have a bench handle with no part # on it and it does not say muncie on it and it has a curve in it to clear the bench seat.I think there were 3 style handles used!one for a console car!one for bucket seats with no console ! and one for bench seat!

Bobby Dodson

[P.J.]

Denis
I think that your shifter is the right one. Ray from Oaklahoma who repairs muncie shifters said that the bucket seat no council shifter is part number 3973867 .He also said that the assembly manuel is not correct for the 70 chevelle. The 3973867
shifter is right for the 70 chevelle ,for the council and
for the bucket seat without concil.
We are now getting to the close to the bottom of the 150 dollar question, Were there 3 diferent shifters used by GM
on the 70 chevelle? or were there only 2 shifter handles used one for the bench seat cars and the other shifter 3973867 used with bucket seat no council and bucket seat with council? 1969 cars shifters had no numbers stamped on the shifter handle.
all opinions will be apreciated
suprss70

[budnate]

did you count the shift plates on the plain handle??? I think the plain handled ones are typically for 3 spd only linkage so I beleive you are looking at two handles for application only...

[Keith Tedford]

I think you will find that the shift handles without lettering came in lower horsepower cars with the Saginaw transmission.

[ORIGLS6]

[ QUOTE ]
Denis
I think that your shifter is the right one. Ray from Oaklahoma who repairs muncie shifters said that the bucket seat no council shifter is part number 3973867 .He also said that the assembly manuel is not correct for the 70 chevelle. The 3973867
shifter is right for the 70 chevelle ,for the council and
for the bucket seat without concil.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, let me say the photos are not of my car but rather the "Benchmark" Chevelle. (Let's not rehash that whole thing again, PLEASE! Dean Ribich was responsible for that website and it has helped a tremendous number of people. Yes, some got upset over the car. My opinion: GET OVER IT! Publically, I still thank Dean for what he did and he remains a good friend of mine. The End!)
Now; it is also my understanding that the shifter handle shown in those photos was used with all bucket seat equipped cars whether they had a console or not. There are members here who are MUCH better versed in this matter than I; a couple of them named Rick! Let's see if we can get them to speak up.
Calling Mr. 70 and SS427!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[P.J.]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif :
suprss70

[ohhawk]

Pictures I've looked at would have me believing that the shifter for all bucket seat SS cars in '70 were the same whether you had a console or not. If there was a difference it doesn't show itself clearly in a picture. I look at my own (with a console) vs. the benchmark car (w/o console) as well as other '70 pictures and they look the same to me.

To fuel the confusion though I have another source that says there were 3 different part #'s:

3973865 - w/o bucket seats
3973864 - bucket seats / no console
3973866 - bucket seats / console

This source shows part #3973867 (mentioned in initial post) belonging to the SS 350 cars in '71 and '72. Also not aware of any shifter with a "no bend" in a '70 SS.

Clear as mud, right?

[P.J.]

There is another shifter handle #3973867 is reported to be for a 70 chevelle with counsol/and no councol with bucket seats. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

3973865 - w/o bucket seats
3973864 - bucket seats / no console
3973866 - bucket seats / console
Hope someone can shed some light on this confusion.
suprss70

[ohhawk]

#3973867 is for SS 350 Chevelles from 1971 and 1972 from the data I'm looking at.

This would also match the picture you have shown which has a black knob on top of the shifter. There were no black knobs on 1970 shifters. 1971 Chevelles were the first to receive the black with the white engraved shift pattern.

[BBIGG BLOCK 396]

I could be wrong here,I usually am but I thought that the bench seat handle and the non console handle were basically the same except the curve in the handle on the bench seat was more round to clear the seat.On the console shifter handle it was shaped like the non console but had a slight bend or offset to the side to come up through the console hole,the offset that I am referring to is not the slight offset on the base where the shifter bolts to the body,but just slightly above that about 2 or 3 inches.The offset is not that much but approx about 1 1/2 inch offset Now keep in mind I have not worked on or seen any of these in a long long time but that is what I think I remember,but it very possibly I am wrong.According to my wife I usually am.That offset would be why there is 3 types of handle part #s,one for the bench seat,one for the nonconsole and then one with the offset for the console car.Does this sould logical or do you think I am CRAZY! I know you guys have seen way more of these than I have but I do remember some type of offset on console handles.

Bobby Dodson

[P.J.]

A friend of mine whom recently bought an ls6 70 chevelle Teder sent me this information
Suprss70
Did a search on chevelles.com and came up with the following

"1968-1969 (4-speed manual)

The M21 and M22 shifters used part number 3922523; and both transmissions with bucket seats used part number 3922524. The lever with bench seats was angled back more for better grip. Knobs were of a two-piece design; the lower half was part number 3920217, and the top half was part number 3920216. The top half was black plastic with the shift pattern engraved in white. When the console, D55, was ordered, lever part number 3922524 was used with a solid chrome knob having no shift pattern. The shift lever should also be cast with the name Muncie in it. The Hurst shifter so commonly seen was never originally installed in the Chevelle as it was on the GTO and 442's.

1970-1972 (4-speed manual)

Levers were the same in 1970, 1971, and 1972; cars without bucket seats used part number 3973865, and cars with bucket seats used part number 3973866 in 1971 and 1972, except the SS 350, which used part number 3973867. The 1970 and early 1971 models used part number 3973865, except the SS 350 in 1971. Knobs in 1970 were the same as in 1969, including part numbers. In 1971 one-piece black ball knobs, part number 3992307, with an engraved shift pattern in white were used. When the console was ordered, part number 3992308 was used. Both knobs came with a spacer nut between the knob and the shifter.

....per Chevelle SS Restoration Guide."

"A restoration book I have lists the following:

70-72 without bucket seats 3973865
70-72 with bucket seats 3973864

71-72 with console 3973866
71-72 SS 350 only 3973867
70 & early 71 3973865"

[P.J.]

Therefore folks the GM assembly manual also lists
Note (2) 3973864 for m20 m21 m22 W/bucket seats. and if that
is correct then the 864 handle is the bench seat handle and the bucket seat with no council ?. Is the assembly manual wrong or have people installed the wrong shifters in their cars?
see the attachment of the infamous 864.
suprss70 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[P.J.]

another view
suprss70

[BBIGG BLOCK 396]

Peter
Go to this auction on e bay and look at this shifter handle,look really close and you will see th eoffset that I was refering to! A non counsole shifter and a bench shifter handle do not have that offset.That offset was just for console cars,it had to have that offset to come up through the shifter hole in the center.That off set is the reason for the 3 part numbers!

Bobby dodson

[P.J.]

Thanks Bobby
At this point I think that you might be right. However without the evidence and part number we cant be sure.
Other members also expresed the same opinion. The council shifter is definately bent so that it clears the council as it comes out of the council It would be reasonalbe to presume that there is no reason for that bend to be
used on a bucket seat car or bench seat car. I am going to keep digging. My friend who has a 70
chevelle ls6 is right when he says that in order to find
the exact shifter handle part number used is to find the GM manual printed in 1969 for the 70 chevelle.The first editon. The later books cant be relied upon.
thaks
suprss70

[Mr70]

I have that manual and it shows Part#3973865 is for Chevelle w/muncie 4spd,EXC. Bucket seats.
#3973866 is for Chevelle w/Bucket seats.

[Mr70]

I have that manual and it shows Part#3973865 is for Chevelle w/muncie 4spd,EXC. Bucket seats.
#3973866 is for Chevelle w/Bucket seats.
Those are the only two applications it shows.
No mention of #864 or #867.
Same for the April 70 & oct. 70 printing.

[P.J.]

Rick
Thanks for the info from the parts books. If there is no
3973864 or 867 mentioned in the parts book of that vintage
why is 3973864 in the 70 assembly manuel for m20 m21 m22 W/ bucket seats? and why is the famous 70 chevelle (I wont mention any names)with bucket seats and no council have a (I beleive)council shifter # 3973867.My friend with the documented ls6 also has a 3973867 council shifter.Another question begs to be asked
at this point is there another council shifter for the 70 chevelle other than 3973867? and what number is on the handle?
Thanks for your responce
Infested:
suprss70

[Belair62]

OK you guys are making me talk funny....it's CONSOLE... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Xplantdad]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif YEP! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[P.J.]

Does consol make the mud any clearer.
Peter http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[mrrec]

Peter:
No, but consolE does and since my orig 12k mile 70 SS doesn't have one but does have shifter #3973867. The shifter is still near new. It is in the Hurst box that the replacement came in. The Hurst instructions are dated 1969, so I'm sure the Muncie was removed just about immediately. The grease is still white in the Muncie mechanism! See photo.
Dave

[mrrec]

Part number on handle. Again, this is a bucket seat, no console car.

[SS454Elky]

The original Muncie shifter that is still connected to the original M22 in my '71 SS454 ElCamino, bucket seats and NO console is P/N 3973867 if that helps any.

[P.J.]

Dave,
My friend Rick with the black 70 ss documented ls6 car who I think is one the most knowlegeable persons I ever ran across re the 70 chevelle told me about your car.I know it was a long shot trying to find you. But we now have the right information
about what shifter were installed on the 70 chevelle bucket seat car with no councoooool. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BelairSucks.gif Information about our cars and the acurate restorations depends on dedicated members on this site . http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif And Thank you Jan for you input on the fact that GM used the same shifter in 1971.I also want to thank all the other members who took the time to voice their opinion.
I am so happy I could just s---. I know I need to be treated
real soon, but it sure feels good waiting for the treatment.
Thanks again
suprss70

[olredalert]

-------Now that all you hotshots have figured this out, maybe you can do some more sluething on how to make one of those infamously bad shifters actually go from one gear to another...LOL!!!...........Bill S

[Mr70]

In two words..HURST LINKAGE. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[P.J.]

Hey Bill
Good one!Thats why I threw mine out just like the 12000 mile car shifter. Brought the car home and had the muncie shifter waitingI did not put the mucnie shifter in the trunk I put it in the garbage. But some people were smarter than me they kept it.
Peter
suprss70 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif