Nice car, but so much wrong

Seems strange to me, after so many years of being in this hobby that, groups of people form clubs for the benefit of the hobby and to build relationships, then after a time, begin to start grinding away at each other, picking apart car restorarations, particularly non-professional budget-minded efforts. Case-in-point is a Nova currently on Ebay. Members, please, for the sake of this great hobby of ours, please consider that not every car that comes before your viewing pleasure is a 100,000 dollar plus car, such as those going across Barrett-Jackson's block. Some of us, myself, for sure, are reaching down deep, to pull at the least, a sub 50,000 dollar car, most likely a lot lower, out onto the show field. I love cars,I like relationships, but I do Not enjoy making someone feel like they haven't done their best on their project. Maybe there are a lot of pros on this board, I am not doubting this, I just get the impression the site is not at its best when people get caught up in kocking others. I knew Tom Clary before he had a Yenko. I was around when he began planning a club. I would like to think his intent for the site is and will continue to be as he originally intended. Too much negativity, even when phrased as, helpful criticism, just feels wrong to me. I welcome a reply from Tom Clary. Thanks.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I've learned a lot from the helpful criticism, both on my car and on others! I think the issue is when the owner who just dug deep to restore a sub-$50k car attempts to sell it on par with the 1000 point car. Also, it's hard to tell if the seller restored the car by pouring every effort and dime into it, or just tossed a pretty paint job on a bunch of ginsu stuff to make a quick buck. If a seller wants the big bucks for the car, then the car will go under the scope. Rarely does an accurately priced car get critiqued the same way, especially when it's also accurately described.

[Jeff H]

I agree with Marlin. The criticism is the only way you will know that you've got some details wrong. And when people try to sell a car for big money, it needs to be as close to 100% correct to deserve the big money. But a lot of times it's potential buyers that are asking for more knowledgable people to look at a car for them and let them know which items are incorrect. If you're referring to a car that you have that you know isn't 100% correct and you have no intention of selling, then yes, it can get annoying when people critique it when you aren't asking for help. But again, cars for sale should be represented correctly or else they are open to criticism from potential buyers.

[LVCamaro]

Resto Light, or Resto Right...either way, enjoy your car! How you like your car is what matters, until "sale day". On sale day, suit up with your best flack jacket cuz eBay invites scrutiny akin to nitpicking and bordering bashing. In thin skin situations, hire a broker to market your car...otherwise be ready to sack-it-up and take the rainbow of comments that will surely follow your "for sale" announcement.

Who's Tom Clary? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SS

[firstgenaddict]

I agree, If you want the top dollar for your car and have restored it using suspension parts from Autozone vs NOS parts then you have opened yourself up for all of the nitpicking from everyone out there. If you are willing to acknowledge that there is a diparity between the two and price accordingly then there will be much less nitpicking when you are up front with the presentation and marketing of the car in the beginning.

[Canucklehead]

I guess it all depends on who your target buyers are. If you want top dollor than be prepared to be put through the wringer. If your trying to sell a car thats not quite right and your not expecting top dollor than your going to target "it is what it is".

[427TJ]

I think what "maslove70" is saying is that there is too much knee-jerk non-constructive criticism on the board. How many times have we seen someone get attacked, only to have the attacker be forced into making an apology? That happens at least a couple times a month around here. To be fair, it isn't the fault of the Y-net, it's people's natural competitive/jealous side that they allow to come out in writing. In my mind, there's a clear difference between "constructive" criticism and the more common slightly-negative kind of impulse-driven criticism that I think "maslove70" is talking about.

David Frieburger said it best in his Hot Rod column about a year ago: "The Internet is ruining hot-rodding." Too many guys let their emotions get ahead of their brains and they attack some guy's sub-50K restoration attempt. Then the guy replies on the forum, explains himself, and then the attacker(s) have to back-track and eat their words. Another thing that bugs me is that the wealthy collectors on this forum get 100% "positive feedback" from the attackers! I mean, it's embarassing how some of the attackers will lavish praise on the high-dollar guys yet bash the guy who's busting his tail trying to get his sub-50K Camaro or Nova done right. Granted, the wealthy collector can afford to get his restoration done right but even if he doesn't you'll never see one of the attackers say anything negative about him or his cars. Yes, it's that obvious.

Having said that, this is still one of the very best car forums on the Internet, back-biting and all. I have gotten some very good help and learned quite a lot in my year hanging around Y-net. I was skeptical about giving money to join the club but then I realized that I had saved money by getting some very good FREE advice right here. That, and the fact that there are many dedicated and highly-knowledgable members on the forum made it easy for me to click on the Pay Pal link*.

As for eBay, yes, there's a lot of BS being said in eBay auctions, we can all agree on that. I don't think that's ever going to end and that's why there's the "Auctions, Scams, and Ripoffs" forum. Maybe if we try to keep the chair-throwing and non-constructive criticism on that part of the forum the rest of the board will maintain a higher degree of professional conduct.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif x 100!


* I've noticed recently that many members have lost their membership stars under their login names. C'mon you guys, hit that Pay Pal link!

[Belair62]

...I don't think anyone holds back their criticism of anyone in particular...I have no idea what peoples net worth is around here but if their car has issues I'm sure people wouldn't hesitate to call them out. These E Bay ads seems to give folks something to gripe about no matter who owns the car and no matter how nice it is. When I saw my 70 Z on E Bay there were a few negative comments...and that was before I bought it off e-bay...there are really a lot of people who know their stuff here so you have to expect them to find stuff wrong with just about any car restored to any level. I don't have a car that would hold up to the "absolutely correct in every detail" microscope either. I have to give credit to the guys who eat,sleep and breathe these cars...it's hard to sugar coat things that are wrong without coming out and saying...it's wrong. Most people are glad to learn this stuff but the majority of folks probably don't strive to get a car down to an infinite level of detail either...some do...some don't...I admire both flawless correct restorations and extremely nice and damn close ones too...bottom line to me is with the value of these types of cars escalating...the more info the better...(sometimes stuff you don't want to know)that info allows people to decide what value they personally would place on a particular car...that being said....folks should stick to facts...and never let it get personal. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif

[Kim_Howie]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gifyeah right http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BelairSucks.gif

[Belair62]

I forgot...your car really DOES suck Kim.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

Put me down for one that Calls em like I sees em.. WHEN THEY ARE FOR SALE....I like to think that for everyone who replies to such a post, there are many more who just use the information as a SPONGE and are getting that Free Education. I don't think anyone wants to intentionally HURT somebody's feelings when they point out an incorrect restoration item.. but if not said, it perpetuates the problem and the next guy makes the same mistake b/c he saw that other car that had it... and FWIW.. I have seen many HIGH DOLLAR so called professional restorations with mistakes ... things that would not take much research to have been made right.

Of course it all depends on how the add is written.. if it is obviously a driver, no need to point out restoration correct items, but if Marketed as a Numbers Matching, Frame Off, Nut and Bolt, Yada Yada rare car... put on the Vest!

I have no problem with it, as long as said car is FOR SALE, be it on Ebay, here, at Team Chevelle, an auction or at a car show... I wouldn't expect anyone to critique anyone's car in an open forum if it was not for sale though.

Mike

[fpcopo]

I know I'm gonna get killed for this but it has bothered me for a long time so here goes. My opinion and maybe only mine is that Baldwin Motion cars are junk. They are nowhere near as rare or desirable as any COPO. They were a standard RPO Chevy that was delivered to a speed shop and make no mistake not a shop that had any special connection to Chevrolet or any other manufacturer but just a speed shop not unlike the one in your town. When I started my business restoring cars in 1991, the first car we restored was a "Phase III" '71 Camaro. This car was a 7,100 mile unmolested car when we got it. I was shocked at the way Motion hacked and cobbled the installation of any thing they did. This car had the Hone overdrive and when the owner previous to the one we were restoring the car for first put slicks on it and hammered it, the overdrive even though not engaged, suffered lathed gears. This unit was so under engineered it could have never held up to the LS6 engine in the car. There were many other things wrong. Even though the engine had never been worked on, when it was disassembled it had one open chamber and one closed chamber head. I wonder who the genius was that did that?When Motion installed the fibre glass hood there was no place to attach the windshield squirters so they just let them dangle down the firewall on the hoses. Also people like to say how fast Joel Rosen's cars went. Why did he only run AHRA and not NHRA? Because he could never go fast enough to meet the standard of performance in NHRA's classes. The only guys from Motion that really ran well to my knowledge were Dennis Ferrara and Bill Mitchell and Mitchell did it with Volkswagens! Also a car that was not delivered by Baldwin and sent to Motion as a new car should not be considered a Baldwin Motion car. If it was purchased at another dealer and sent to Motion for mods later it should be considered just another speed shop hacked car and priced accordingly. This should also go for cars sent to Yenko, Harrell or any other speed shop after they were used. I just do not think a car purchased at another dealer and sent to Yenko for mods is anything other than a plain old modified car. I know I will probably get death threats for this but it is MY OPINION and I will stand behind it. the reason I bring this up is, the value of these cars is getting so high that I feel we need to keep it honest and not assign high prices or Godlike status to non COPO cars. Frank

[ANDY M]

Gentlemen, there is an old proverb: It is better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all of the doubt. In addition to that, remember your mother's words of wisdom, that if you can't say something nice, then don't say anything.
People who do not behave this way have been invited to leave, and often there are sincere apologies when that's what is called for.
One of the best things about this site is that you can PM someone when you don't want to be heard by everyone.
I have received some very nice compliments about my car, despite my stated opinion that I don't care for points judging. Somebody once told me that if you think the Corvette judging is anal, go to a dog show, and you won't think that car shows are so bad.
Samething applies to cars for sale, buy it or don't, but why attack it if you have no interest in it.
Everbody: Can't we all just get along?
Andy

[fpcopo]

Andy, I don't know you and wasn't picking on your car. I am voicing my opinion because I want to make sure Supercars remain the elite group they are. I am not bashing any ones car in particular and everything I wrote pertained to what I had seen on two of the cars I personally worked on. I don't want any one to think I am trying to stir up trouble or trying upset the web masters. I enjoy this site and all who are on it. This is America and we are all free to voice our views good bad or otherwise. Thanks, Frank

[ANDY M]

Frank, no offense taken! I was addressing the Forum, and since I generally refer to my Camaro as a "beater", which in my opinion it is, I happen to agree with what you said.
I love cars, and hope that I never lose the passion, but if I do, I'll get over it and move on.
I may not take my love of these cars as seriously as some folks do, but I can still relate to their passion, even if I don't quite share it on the same level. I just hope they can do the same for everybody else.
Peace, Love and Freedom.
Andy

If you ask for an appraisal,then that is what you should get. It can be handled tactfully and with class. There is obviously a wealth of knowledge on this board. Would the site not be better served with a dedicated forum for those, "in the know", to discuss their opinions of somene's car? A moderated forum that, keeps bashing in check and makes for an enjoyable and informative read for us other gearheads. I would be in favor of just such a forum. Then when someone gets out of line in another forum, they can be escorted to the newly created critique forum, or perhaps even escorted off the site if they can't make nice comments. I just think the site will be better in the long run if overzealous comments are reined-in. Once again, if someone asks for opinions or selling tips, give them a forum to receive what they want. Thanks for all that responded so far.

[JoeG]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I'm gonna get killed for this but it has bothered me for a long time so here goes. My opinion and maybe only mine is that Baldwin Motion cars are junk. Frank [/quote ]

Gee Frank feeling better now.........???

[LVCamaro]

I'm with you, Joe. Joel R is a friend of mine and it frustrates me to see this debate on the WWW. Joel's creations may not be for everyone, but that doesn't open the door for such brash disrespect for a living legend, IMO. PM me if you want Joel's E numbers, phone numbers, addy...or does that require something your keyboard can't hatch? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

SS

[camarojoe]

I agree LV.. Discussion of a car for sale is one thing, but to bash someone's efforts or reputation , (be it a personal opinion or otherwise) in a public forum seems to not be too productive or beneficial to the hobby.

[Charley Lillard]

Frank I gotta disagree. When I looked over the 80 Motion Camaro I had I was amazed by the extra steps Motion took when I think they could have fudged instead. Stuff like two holley fuel pumps. The second one turning on by micro switch when under full throttle with the Nitrous on. The Chrysler Liberty 4 speed versus just leaving a muncie in. The electric fan in front of the radiator in addition to the regular fan. The electric one was controlled by a capillary tube inserted under the upper radiator hose where it attaches to the radiator. The list went on and on. Yes any speed shop could do that also but it was done by Motion. You could bitch at Yenko for doing nothing more that hiring kids to apply stripes on Deuces or just adding stripes to COPO cars. I think Motion should also be commended for the wild and cool looks they did to alot of their cars. Your bashing seems pretty harsh for what appears to be based on exposure to two cars. As for drag racing, maybe some can chime in on what they accomplished.

[JChlupsa]

Have to agree with LV/Charley and a few others and say Joel was at the forefront of building up any Muscle car and I would love to have one. Matter of fact there were a few here in Hawaii to include the Ribbon Car but thats been cubed and now sitting about 3 miles off shore and at about 1200FT (According to the last owners son who said that car and a bunch of parts were hauled off by a new home owner that bought a house and wanted the place cleaned out!!!)

As for NHRA Records:

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="brown">Dennis Ferrara's
"Motion Performance"
70 Camaro A/MP
In the early 70's Dennis drove this car
to hold NHRA national records
13 different times.
As an A/MP car weighing in at a hefty 3024 lbs, it
ran 9.30 at 140mph.
This 430 ci Rat motored car was unbeaten in
class for 3 years straight !!
Ertl reproduced this car as it was raced in the 70's
tunnel ram intake w/ 2 4bbl carbs, racing headers,
hood scoop, slicks on Centerlines, </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[whitetop]

[ QUOTE ]
Also people like to say how fast Joel Rosen's cars went. Why did he only run AHRA and not NHRA?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not run Nhra? I think the local tracks were affiliated with AHRA. Suffolk County was AHRA. And I believe the Hamptons on Long Island may have been also. Not sure about New York International. No one knows the exact reason Joel did not run the national nhra circuit. I don't think he even ran the AHRA circuit out of his area for that matter. Joel probably felt he did not have to. I would say the majority of his cars sold or were converted to people in the immediate surrounding states.

BTW: The New York mags that heavily promoted Motion (other than HiPerformance Cars) were just that, regional mags that portrayed the New York scene. Every car ever featured or show coverage was from one of the New York burroughs it seemed like. Up until ebay and the internet I met people out of other regions of the country who had never heard of Hot Cars, Rodding &amp; Super Stock, Super Street Cars, Chevy Power and Chevy Action.

[Pantera]

Heck you should ad Motion performance to that list. I have had my cars for so many years and never mentioned them to people. When I did they would look at you kinda dumb and say "whats that". Very seldom nowadays do I find anyone that even knows what a Motion is. And when I do they usually think they are all "Baldwin Motion's". I usually don't try to inform them of what the difference is.


Pantera

[Charley Lillard]

I would like to make a Motion that we just kill Frank now...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif