Warning: bogus '63 on ebay

[Verne_Frantz]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4541944111

Gentlemen, Although this is a nice looking car, I was surprised to find that I have this car documented in my data base from years ago.
It was originally Monaco Blue with a blue SS interior. ! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Take a look at a repro cowl tag and rivits. I guess this car is an example of today's definition of "numbers matching" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

The seller also claims the Super Sport became it's own model in '63, which is false. It did in '64. Also the claim of only 123 of them is just a little off. Maybe add 3 zeros.

Verne

[firstgenaddict]

That trim tag is Awfully close to the 68 Yenko Magic Mirror Trim tag http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[Lynn]

Verne:

Are you absolutely certain this is the same car? No chance of it being a typo on the VIN? Seems like blue would be a much more desirable color, and can't figure why anyone would change it to brown.

Other than the colors being incorrect, what other items have been changed from the original? Was it even an SS?

Lynn

[Verne_Frantz]

Lynn,
Here's what happened. I was made aware of this car this morning (simply an outside contact from a person who was considering the car who wanted my opinion) and forwarded the auction to my counterpart in OH who has a list of the cars in my dbase. He notified me that it was already in the dbase. I hadn't known that yet because it's on my computer at home (not where I am now). The cowl tag info was also on his list, which indicated the color changes. It is listed as an SS in the dbase. I have a lot more information on the car under that listing, so I have to look at it completely this evening.
While typos are certainly possible, the rest of the cowl tag info matches, so I'm very inclined to believe it's the same car.
A lot could have happened: The car could have been "restored" per a customer request for one in those colors......
I'll know more tomorrow.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Lynn]

Thanks Verne:

Too bad there aren't more such databases. You see so many cars on Ebay that you suspect are bogus, some obvious, some not so obvious. Guys are getting taken to the cleaners on a regular basis. I realize that a lot of guys don't care if a car is a clone (tribute to you guys who don't like the "c" word), but still, originality adds significantly to the value on these "restored" cars.

From time to time I consider contacting some of the unsuspecting bidders, but never have. I feel bad for them, but they really need to do some homework before laying down some big bucks for a "collector" car. I had a neighbor that bought an "original restored 69 Z/28" at an auction in OKC. At least that is how it was represented. I hated to break the news to him when I looked at the 6 cyl VIN!!!!!!! It did have some beautiful paint on it, but probably two gallons of bondo underneath.

Lynn

[Verne_Frantz]

Lynn,
I agree with you 110%. I can't fathom why someone would lay down $40K for a car on ebay without actually looking at the car, or having an informed person look at it for him. I've had a few contacts from long time, experienced "Corvette" people who decided to acquire a 409 car. Absolutely contrary to the level of detail and research they're used to in the Corvette hobby, they blindly ran out and bought a poorly done clone..........THEN asked me to document the car! Makes no sense to me.....but.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

As for the '63 in question, the car was offered for sale in Fla. in Dec. '90 At that time the cowl tag read:
12E
63-1867 JA 3046
831-1-Z 914 (blue vinyl convertible buckets) (Monaco Blue paint)
F C Q Y

The cowl tag now reads:
12E
63-1867 JA 3046
862-1-Z 932 (Saddle vinyl convertible buckets) (Saddle Tan paint)
F C Q Y

Everything is the same except for the paint & trim codes. The VIN is also the same. There can't be two cars from the same plant with the same sequencial body number. At that time the car had a 425hp 409 and 4-spd. The engine was cast A2262 (Jan 22nd '62) and assembled T0202QB (Feb. 2nd, coded as 425hp). The body was built the 5th week of Dec. '62 and I calculated the VIN to a final asembly date of 12/31/62, therefore the engine could not be original.

It really saddens me to see such things going on in "my" hobby. And I couldn't feel worse for a guy who remembers a car from his past, saves his money and finally dumps his savings to buy the car of his dreams....only to find out later that it's not real. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif When the cowl tag is changed to reflect the changes made to the car, well.....that's a line that should never be crossed, in my opinion. The cowl tag is the birth certificate of the car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

OK, I'll get off my soapbox.......
Verne

[Mr70]

Nice detective work Verne.

[Lynn]

Preach on brother. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

BTW, have you found some of that 1969 vintage air for my tires yet? I may have found an old converted freon tank that has air from Late 68. That would make it technically correct for all 69 models, right? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif Maybe I will put it on Ebay!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lynn

Lynn

[Pantera]

Just on the off chance do you have a Red w/red interior '63 Biscane 409, It came as a 400 but we made it a 425 hp later on. It came through Bill White Chev and I was wondering if you might have it in your data base? I lived with a good buddy that ordered it new and they screwed up the order and send a 300 hp twin of the 409 car, along with his 400hp car. A guy named Vic Brown bought the sm block car when he heard of it for sale.

Some of you may have heard of Vic Brown, he drove dragsters for Bob Creitz back in the mid 60's.

My buddy was named Jim Kohler and I know where to locate his widow and she may have some of the old pic of the car still. After he died she bought a new Calaway vette in '85. I will never forget she called me to drive it because it was getting too hot. she was not letting it cool down after running it hard and it would get up to 300 deg. Had to explain how the turbos worked for her. how that thing kept from blowing the head gaskets at that temp, is a real mystery to me.


Pantera

[Verne_Frantz]

Pantera,
I'll be happy to check using the info you provided. It would be great if the VIN were known. Perhaps his widow might find an old registration or insurance card. Lot's of people keep the old copies of their auto insurance papers, which list the car's VIN.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

Pantera,
After looking at all the Biscaynes (and Belairs, just in case), I came up with nothing that matches the car you described, sorry.
Verne