1964 C2 Corvette old Motion Performance Custom

[longbros]

http://users.adelphia.net/~fsantiques/trash.jpg


I recently purchased a 64 Corvette that was customized a long time ago using custom fiberglass parts sold by Motion Performance, and I would like to know if anyone else has a C2 with these custom components installed? If there are other vehicles out there that were customized with these components, I would like to exchange pictures and information with the owners.

I have corresponded with the Joel Rosen who was the head of Motion, and he has verified that the custom components on my 64 were sold thru their showroom and catalog. He said although these items were never used on any of the Baldwin Motion new cars, they were installed on some customs they did.

The custom pieces consist of a shark nose, front spoiler, custom hood, and front and rear fender flares. If you have a C2 with these custom pieces, please contact me.

This NOM 64 is in need of total restoration, and my original idea was to take it back to factory original, but I am now leaning towards restoring it back to its original customized glory. Any thoughts?

[Pantera]

I think you should go back stock. The hood looks like a Ecklers to me. That is a '69 427 L-88 style center on a stock 64 hood. I had one just like it on a 63 that I raced in SCCA. I am not trying to hurt your feelings but, I think you would find it would not bring big money as a custom even with the questionable Motion parts link.

Unless you can find positive proof via bills of sale for the parts and/or Motion's own body shop having done the work it would not in my opinion be considered a true motion car. One other way would be old pic from that era showing it customized and that date back then.

I hope that someone on here will step forward and say that they reconize it from years ago. You may have a hard road to go with it if someone doesn't come along.

Hope you don't mind the frank words. There are so many guys come on here wanting so bad to have a MOTION car in some way. We tend to be a little hard nosed with out good paperwork or other proof. I hope you understand? Nothing personal intended or infered for sure.

No mater what you decide I want you to know that it could be a neat looking car as a custom. You have some big $$$$ ahead of you either way you go. Let me wish you the best of luck which ever you decide. Don't get discouraged and Keep us informed on your progress either way.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Pantera

[longbros]

Thanks so much for the input. The hood is nothing like an Ecklers that I have seen. It is not just a L-88 center that someone added to a stock 64 hood. It is all one piece and the underside doesn't look like any I have seen, although I have not looked at that many.

I am certain about the Motion Performance nose. I have seen a NOS Motion performance nose just like it on Ebay. I have provided the Ebay acution link below. I sent both the photo of the vehicle and the photo of the NOS nose to Joel, and he commented as noted above. I also have a photo copy of a motion catalog listing the pieces, but have not seen any catalog pictures.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7949450556

I know that this is not a "Motion car", as indicated by Joel, but I feel pretty certain that at least the nose is Motion, and possibly the hood, flares, and spoiler. I agree, more research is in order and more proof, that is one reason I submitted this post.

I have at least one name of a previous owner, and know of two different states the vehicle was registered in, so I have some leads and homework to do. I am just getting started.

No problem with the frank words, I completely understand. There are a lot of bogus and clone vehicles out there. I have restored many vehicles before, so understand the big $$$$ issue. It is easy to get discouraged with a project like this because it will take a long time, but that has never been a problem for me.

I do hope someone will know this vehicle and come forward with some information. Thanks again for your input and insight.

[55chevy]

I'll chime in... I wouldn't doubt it being Motion sold parts on your car.. But we gotta start being realistic.. Motion Performance ie Joel Rosen was in business for a long time (mid 1960s thru late 1980s-early 90s??) And sold A LOT of stuff from every automotive spectrum throughout the years... but it seems a lot of people these days seem to think that ANYTHING with "motion" on it is super rare and worth tons of money.. and it really isn't... case in point.. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...002947&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=42606&item=4545002 947&rd=1) ... a Baldwin/Motion washer?????
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif That'll add about 400hp.. ............ There are RARE "Motion" items.. The BALDWIN/Motion cars modified NEW at Motion and sold NEW through Baldwin Chevrolet with a warranty.. Cars like Marks '68 Phase III L88 427 Camaro and Larrys '70 Phase III GT LS7 454 Vette and Dan's '73 Phase III LS6 454 Camaro...etc. THOSE are "rare" and worth the big bucks... but when I see a common part worth $3 to 100 bucks fought over to some rediculous price in the hundreds of hundreds just because it has an old Motion mail order sales receipt or a sticker on the package... that just makes me think things are getting out of hand these days... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Anyone else feeling the same?

[djunod]

Realistic went out the window a long time ago...

[djunod]

Do you enjoy the car the way it is?

Do you go to cruise-in's or car shows?

Do you want to become a part of the factory lineup or do you want to show something truly interesting?

For me it is so very boring to go to a cruise-in or "show" and just see a bunch of old cars that have been faithfully restored to the way they came from the factory... and then hear everybody nit-picking about this or that part not being correct for your year of vehicle.

I grew up in an era when a car show was a *** CAR SHOW ***. It was so much more exciting thing. People need to get back to having a little more show & style.

Nowadays it is just some big investment scam.

[GM-26]

[ QUOTE ]
I grew up in an era when a car show was a *** CAR SHOW ***. It was so much more exciting thing. People need to get back to having a little more show & style.

Nowadays it is just some big investment scam.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red">Exactly!!!</font>

[longbros]

Perhaps it would help if I make my position more clear. When I purchased this 64 Corvette, it was because I wanted a mid year to restore and have fun with. I have spent my entire life in the car hobby, and have restored a bunch of vehicles all back to stock, show winners. I have done meets, shows, tours, judging, etc. Now, at 55, I am not sure how many more vehicles I am going to do, and I am thinking that maybe I will just do this one for fun. I didn't even know about the "Motion" stuff until I saw the Motion nose on Ebay and realized that my new project had that nose. So then, I started the research on this site and others. I wanted to be careful to preserve any history.
This vehicle is a NOM 64 Corvette that will never be a high $$$ numbers matching vehicle. I knew that when I bought it. This vehicle is not a high $$$ "Motion" vehicle. But, I have discovered that this vehicle is a bit unique because it was modified with Motion Performance parts. How unique, I am not sure, so that is why I asked for anyone with a vehicle like this to come forward.

It would be nice, that when I am done with the restoration, that the vehicle be worth more than I have in it. I doubt it will go that way, but for myself and others, it isn't just about the money. I do this because I love old vehicles, I enjoy the challenge of the restoration and research, I enjoy learning new skills, and I enjoy meeting great people along the way. I am not after trophys, I have done that. I will take the car to shows and cruise in's and have a good time. When finished, it will be an eye catching, blast to drive piece of automotive, Corvette, and Motion history. It is not just about the money.
Thanks for all the input. Keep it coming.

[Motion Camaro]

<font color="blue">What I don't understand in this 'NEW' crave for rare cars is: http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
How can the '67 427 'Vette that sold at Barrett-Jackson 3-4 years ago for $45K,
sell for $125K now??? It's the same car, not some rare find, &amp; it was purchased to sell again &amp; again.
I'm sorry, but in my opinion, Barrett-Jackson has lost the magic.

A Barris 1 of 1 is a different story , but what can you do with that 'Vette .... wait to sell it again?.
(very few will drive them after spending $125K.)

I could have restored my car, but then I would have to sell it
('cause someone would have offered me 'stupid' money for it).
I'd much rather have the car, with the history, &amp; still build it my way.
Much more of a conversation piece &amp; I will not be scared to drive it.</font>

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif (the above comment is strictly the opinion of "MotionCamaro" &amp; not to be related to the operators of this site)

[whitetop]

I say restore the car just like you found it. Add some new cragars and side pipes and keep the car '70's looking.

If you restore it to stock it wil just look like all the other ones at a show.

[Pantera]

I didn't mean to infer that it was a part put on a original hood. I don't know about your hood but here is a pic of my old race car. It had one that sure looks like the one on yours? This was a std Ecklers hood that they sold thousands of them, back in the '70's. This pic was about 1979.

I agree with you about the nose on your car. If you like it as a custom then that is what I was trying to convey to you to go for it.

If you think about it, those guys that bought the big $$$$ Motion cars years ago must have liked having something different and not just a restored stocker or they would not have bought it. I have always liked having something different that everybody else. I guess I am just weird that way. Or perhaps wired that way...? Hah.... (Beat you to it ED)

If I had your 64. I would just finish it as a custom. It is neat looking as is. One thing that I would do different is get the side f fender panels behind the wheels off a 67 and reverse them side for side. The louvers would then stick out instead of in and that is more like what Motion did with the '69's. I really think it would look kool on a mid year like yours. I never did like the look of the 64 side panels.


Pantera

[MosportGreen66]

I think you should do what you want to do with the car. I would like you to keep the 1970s style theme throughout the entire car. I like the Cragar idea and the side pipes too. Continue the theme with wild paint (check out last month's Hot Rod for ideas) and even go wild with the motor with some period correct valve covers and intake manifold. Wow just think how much fun you could have with some 50 series Mickey Thompson Indy Profile S/S raised white letter rears and black walls up front. Even some color spark plug wires and a gilter steering wheel. Don't forget your flex-flan! Then through your travels (if YOU so please) check into some authenic Motion Parts. Like a Phase III ignition box, valve covers if Cal Custom ain't your thing... the list could go on forever!

The issue with the two recent auction sales of Motion Modified Corvettes is that the majority of Corvette owners out there are purists and do not like to see their Corvettes modified regardless if it was done by Joel Rosen. I think a lot of people on this website would have spent more money than $95,000 for that blue convertible and $210,000 for the real Phase III car, I sure would have. So with this Corvette being YOURS and in need of a restoration, make it unique, make it fun, and drive the hell out of it!

[Belair62]

I'm with Whitetop...restore it as you found it with all the custome pieces....at the end of the day you have to take it out and have a ball in it.....and no offense Corvette guys but 64's are the stepchildren of the species....so if you restore it stock...it's not a high dollar car anyway...JMO

[longbros]

Pantera,

Thanks for the photo of your car. I agree, my hood looks just like the one you have, it may very well be an old Ecklers. As I mentioned above, I am certain about the Motion nose because I have a reference, but I have no way at this time to verify the hood, flares, and front spoiler as being Motion, other than they are mentioned in an early 70's Motion catalog. Again, I appreicate the photo and your input.

[longbros]

Mossportgreen66,

I like the idea of staying with the 70's style also. As it turns out, the NOM in this vehicle is a 1970 350 with date matached double hump heads. The engine suffix and numbers on the front pad have been intentionally hacked up with a pick or chisel, so I have no way of knowing what this 70 engine originally came out of. I like the idea of staying with the chrome mag wheels and side pipes. The whole idea leaves lots of options.

[longbros]

[ QUOTE ]
I say restore the car just like you found it. Add some new cragars and side pipes and keep the car '70's looking.

If you restore it to stock it wil just look like all the other ones at a show.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your idea of restoring it as I found it with the 70's look. If I were a 100% Corvette purist, it would go back to stock, but at this time in my life, it is time to have some fun. Besides, I don't want another vehicle that looks like all the rest. If I spruce up the current custom, and add a little of my own personallity, it will be something special, maybe only to me, but special none the less. Sounds like a blast on Sat. nights to me!

[Motion Camaro]

<font color="blue">I've got a freind who has a '69 'Vette.
Flared, sidepipes, L88 hood, roll bar ... a very cool
driver ... He also has a '62 'Vette he is going to do Gasser style for the street.
The 'Corvette' guys hate him for it, but the guys we cruise with love it.
He loves 'Vettes, just not stock ones. He's not selling either, so make it you own &amp; enjoy. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif </font>

[Pantera]

You are so right about the '64's being the stepchildren of the Vette collectors. Nothing much exciting happend in '64 except the one piece back window on the coupe. lots of '63 split window cars got the '64 rear window update.

[Canucklehead]

Hey how about doing some lace work on it to give it that late 60's look?

[MosportGreen66]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing much exciting happend in '64 except the one piece back window on the coupe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Larry, while I do agree with your statement as the 1964 car is the step child of the MidYear Vette, there were significant changes made to the car. The chassis of a 1964 Corvette was changed greatly to accomidate the use of use mounted exhaust. While there are no documented 1964 Corvettes to be found yet, it certainly is possible that they exsist.

[olredalert]

-------It is a documented fact that production sidepipe Corvettes were not made until after January 1 of 1965. As a matter of fact the needed change to the frame to accomodate sidepipes was a running change during the fall of 64 after 65s were released. You can look up the actual dates in the 1965 assembly manual. I as well as many others have and have had early 65s without the sidepipe slots in the siderails. There is a 65 in Texas (if it hasnt been sold) that has one framerail with the slot and one framerail without. It probably was not the only one so configured. The jury is out as to weather all the drum-brake equipped 65s had non slot framerails as they basicly used 64 frames, but to date I have never seen a drumbrake 1965 Corvette that came from the factory with sidepipes.
-------Since I had seen 65 sales catalogs and knew that sidepipes were coming I was really on the lookout for them. The first set I actually saw was at Sebring in 1965, and it wasnt complete as one cover was missing, so it must have been converted. Shortly after that sighting they appeared on just about any Vette with more than 300hp. Hope this helps..........Bill S

[MosportGreen66]

[ QUOTE ]
-------It is a documented fact that production sidepipe Corvettes were not made until after January 1 of 1965. As a matter of fact the needed change to the frame to accomodate sidepipes was a running change during the fall of 64 after 65s were released. You can look up the actual dates in the 1965 assembly manual. I as well as many others have and have had early 65s without the sidepipe slots in the siderails. There is a 65 in Texas (if it hasnt been sold) that has one framerail with the slot and one framerail without. It probably was not the only one so configured. The jury is out as to weather all the drum-brake equipped 65s had non slot framerails as they basicly used 64 frames, but to date I have never seen a drumbrake 1965 Corvette that came from the factory with sidepipes.
-------Since I had seen 65 sales catalogs and knew that sidepipes were coming I was really on the lookout for them. The first set I actually saw was at Sebring in 1965, and it wasnt complete as one cover was missing, so it must have been converted. Shortly after that sighting they appeared on just about any Vette with more than 300hp. Hope this helps..........Bill S

[/ QUOTE ]

I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification Bill.

[Pantera]

Not sure what you are saying about the early midyrear frames.

The basic frames on these cars are prety much the same as far as I know. The factory sidepipe cars have the same frames as all the rest. The factory sidepipes are a bolt one that come out under the frame and are hidden behind a different rocker panel.

I have swapped them many times years ago with outhaving to modify the frame.

To my knowledge the frames are almost exactly the same up till 68. They only changed the body mount locations then. In 69 they had to put a couple of braces at the rear to trianglate the rear crossmember to make the frames stronger to handle the higher HP motors that were becoming more common.


Pantera

[Pantera]

I have a set of factory sidepipes I put on my S/N 11, '65 vette and have no clearance problems? They just bolted on.

I thought they only put a mounting hole in the later frames?


BTW:Mine is posably the first '65 actually delivered from the factory with disk brakes. Most of the first few were drum brake equipped.

Pantera

[olredalert]

Pantera,

-------While all the frames are "basicly" the same every year of the midyears 63/67 are somewhat different. The only difference in the correct sidepipe side-rail is the slotted hole that allowed a carriage bolt to sit inside the hole and hang down to accept all the rubber cushions, washers and nuts. Pre- sidepipe frames have no hole in that position for the sidepipe to attach to. Its easy enough to drill a hole and run a lag style bolt up as many do, but not correct. A little more difficult to duplicate the correct hole and slot in the correct location but not impossible.
-------Your early 65 will have another change you may not be aware of. The front crossmember does not have the clearanced area that came along later in the fall for big-block harmonic balancer and pulley clearance. I learned that one the hard way!..........Bill S

-------And you are correct on your 65 NO.11 in regard to the brakes. Years ago I had a long, close look at NO.5, originally a black/saddle leather fuelie roadster. It was also delivered with disc-brakes, and was pulled by engineering and sent to the tech center to become the very first 427 Corvette. How was that car of yours delivered?

[Pantera]

I have had it on blocks for years. (since 76) It is a complete original 365hp 4 speed. yellow with std black interior. Even still has most of the sparkplug shields on it. 60,000 mi. It did have a Hurst shifter, and had black hooker side headers on it when I got it.

I had a rough black painted '66 coupe come through my carlot one week and I parked both cars side by side and did a swap of the exaust systems between them. I am only missing the shields over the plugs on the 65 where the headers were. It had 67 rally wheels and I swaped them for the black rims and skinny tires off the '66.

I know my car should not have the side exaust but I just like the way it sounds and looks. It was repainted blue but the original pale yellow is still under it. Front bumper is even still intact. Not much was changed when I got it. Needs to be restored someday.

I guess I should have said that Bill Mock in Bartlesville says that mine was possabley the first one let out to the general public with the disk brakes.

Pantera

[longbros]

Here is an update.

I recently purchased a 1980 Motion parts catalog, just to see if I could find any reference to, or pictures of the Motion Performance items on my 64. On page 6 of the catalog, it lists Phase III 63-67 Vette Fiberglass, and this list includes the items found on my vehicle. There is a clear photo of a C2 Corvette with the Shark Front on page 6 and page 7. Looks just like my 64.
At least now I have a picture of another vehicle with this Shark Front, and some reference to the parts. I know it isn't much, but it is a start. I have tried contacting previous owners and other sources, but no luck yet on any history. I have been striping paint, looking to see how bad the body and body work really is.
Thanks again for all the input.

Fred