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View Full Version : What would you Pay GM for Official Documentation?


12bolt
05-17-2005, 07:41 AM
Consider this thought for one moment. "G.M." Wakes up from their Coma and decides to help unlock the Mystery Shrouded around all their Desirable Cars of the Past. what would you as an Owner be willing to Pay for a "P.H.S." Type of Documentation for your Car, thus proving or disproving it's authenticity? (For those unfamiliar with this service, P.H.S.= Pontiac Historical Services Multi Page Report on a Car with info such as Options, Date of assembly, proof if it was a Real GTO stuff like that.)

hvychev
05-17-2005, 08:31 AM
I personally do not think this will ever happen. People put to much hope in the concept.

bilede
05-17-2005, 09:16 AM
which will never happen? GM coming out of a coma or releasing official documentation? both seem to be long shots but I guess we can keep positive thoughts right.. "Think you can or think you can't, either way you are right" to borrow a quote from a ford guy.. henry ford..

427TJ
05-17-2005, 09:53 AM
Not knowing what PHS charges for their documentation, I'd say $25-$50 would be a fair price range.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

But, I think GM has plenty of trouble to deal with at the present time and I'd be suprised if there's ever a truly organized Chevrolet documentation system a-la PHS. I do know about the attempt to get this information together---we've discussed it here recently---but I'm not holding my breath.

TDW
05-17-2005, 01:25 PM
My 68 Z28 and my 69 L78 do not have factory paperwork. They have both been documented by Jerry MacNeish. I would pay at least as much as Jerry charges for documenting them. That is a lot more than 50 bucks though. If the factory stuff was around 500, I would pay it.

COPO_Anders
05-17-2005, 03:17 PM
So would I. 500 is cheap if you have the real thing. I have the original drivetrain in my COPO, but I would like to see some paperwork before I restore it.
I just ordered our -71 Le Mans papers from P.H.S.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Anders

DaJudge
05-17-2005, 04:08 PM
PHS charges $45 for fax back service and is followed up by the docs and AMA specs mailed out to you within two weeks.

Here's something interesting I e-mailed Chevrolet Customer service to inquire about the dealership where my 70 Z-28 was purchased. They called me that evening and requested my VIN number. They sent me a what they called a Restoration package that includes the AMA specs as well as the GM doc that shows the vehicle specs, part numbers and capacities. The same docs that you get with PHS except the factory to dealer invoice.

Now why would GM keep that and not the invoices http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Jeff H
05-17-2005, 04:47 PM
I think most enthusiasts would be willing to spend $50-200 for documentation if it was available. With more and more people building these older cars into what they want them to be, they don't even have a reason for wanting documents. It really comes down to the limited production, high performance stuff that people want it for. It would cause a flood of clones for sale if it ever did happen though. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mr70
05-17-2005, 04:49 PM
Chevrolet has been doing the Restoration package for at least 10 years now.
Those papers are nothing special.Those are Xerox copies out of the Original Dealer Albums,AMA Catalogs,Price schedules,Dealer vehicle brochures and various common other reference materials that were heavily distributed back then and can all be found publicly today.

TimG
05-17-2005, 06:41 PM
If you have a well documented car now, the paperwork would not be worth much. What if you have a 1969 L88 Corvette without the original engine and history clearly shows that it is an L88? This guy would pay $10,000 or more for the paperwork. A friend in Alabama paid $5,000 to Proteam for the paperwork on his '67 400 horse A.C. Corvette Roadster last November. The tank sticker ended up on the car in front of his and Proteam found it on one of their cars and advertised it in The Driveline, he paid the price and was wise to do this as this car recently sold for over $150,000. If you have a 250 horse powerglide coupe, paperwork may be worth $100. We all know that in some cases, the paperwork is worth more than the car.

Supergas990
05-17-2005, 06:49 PM
IMO... If they offered it up for $100 it would be worthwhile for many people. That seems like it would be a small cost to verify any car. I think it's pretty cool to have history, even on the lesser cars.

Blair

12bolt
05-17-2005, 09:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
which will never happen? GM coming out of a coma or releasing official documentation? both seem to be long shots but I guess we can keep positive thoughts right.. "Think you can or think you can't, either way you are right" to borrow a quote from a ford guy.. henry ford..

[/ QUOTE ] Great statement and Quote. I am an eternal optimist. relatively new to this site and the GM "Problem" as I refer to it as it certainly is just that. If They could tear down the Berlin Wall, then there certainly is a way that another "Organized effort" by a Concerned group of Individuals, who rally together behind a Good Cause can get the job Done! all it would Take is a Petition started and Carried out at events like Carlisle GM and Camaro Nationals for instance. Some Volunteers to man the Booth and maybe even get some sponsors to help out with costs of Tent rental and Space, Printing costs, etc. Get some press Coverage. Have Autoweek do a story on it. Get speed Channel involved! Blow the story out into the open and expose the "General" for treating the Minions improperly! Reporters wake up every day waiting for a Human interest Story where Corporate America is screwing the Public. It would then give the "General" a Chance to respond. God knows they do not want another "Michael Moore" incident on their hands! Now Who is Ready with some ideas on who can "lead the Troops" here?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Supercar_Kid
05-17-2005, 10:46 PM
Well I guess I'm the eternal pessimist then...

Look at it from the General's POV and the situation becomes pretty clear. Is it smarter to spend your company's efforts sorting and archiving thousands of 35 year old documents for cars you've already sold in an attempt to potentially please a handful of "enthusiasts" and make maybe $100 a pop, or instead should you concentrate your efforts on building and marketing profitable vehicles to today's buying public in an effort to keep your already fledgling company afloat for at least few more years?

Seems to me like it's a no-brainer. For GM the project is insignificant both financially and in terms of public relations. GM simply could care less if we "enthusiasts" get our beloved documents or not, and I personally think the process of organizing and "releasing" the documents would prove to cost as much or more than they could ever hope to generate on the sale of such documents.

To be honest, it surprises me that GM of Canada and PHS are doing it at all. You can bet they aren't getting rich doing it either. Seeing as how George Zapora seems to be the lone GM employee doing Canadian documentation for nearly a decade now, it doesn't seem like that department is where the money is being made for the General, nor do I hear anyone singing the praises of GM of Canada or Pontiac for their efforts. Has anyone spent anymore than the $35 GM of Canada or Pontiac asks for documents, or went out and actually bought a new GM car because they were so courteous in providing docs for your collector car? Likely not...it just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the automotive manufacturing business. It's a bonus for us collectors that they do it, but I doubt it makes much difference for GM of Canada or the Pontiac division on the whole.

It is a shame, but the bottom line is, if it's gonna take more than someone tearing the lid off a box at GM and dumping the records into a scanner, you can bet it won't be happening anytime soon. They simply have bigger fish to fry.

Besides...aren't all the extra "enthusiast" hands at GM supposed to be busy working on our "new" Camaro anyhow? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

camarojoe
05-17-2005, 11:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Besides...aren't all the extra "enthusiast" hands at GM supposed to be busy working on our "new" Camaro anyhow? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah really... remember all the petitions that were sent around, internet banter, and enthusiast outcry to "Save the Camaro"? I still have the T-shirt I bought with the ad slogan on it, for whatever good it did. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

12bolt
05-17-2005, 11:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Well I guess I'm the eternal pessimist then...

to me like it's a no-brainer. For GM the project is insignificant both financially and in terms of public relations. GM simply could care less if we "enthusiasts" get our beloved documents or not, and I personally think the process of organizing and "releasing" the documents would prove to cost as much or more than they could ever hope to generate on the sale of such documents.



[/ QUOTE ] I guess People like you must be running the Show at GM!! No wonder I like FORD so much!! In True response to your Pessimism, You do not know the outcome until you try. And that applies to anything you do in Life. Think about your first piece of A$$! or anything else you wanted so bad you could taste it. Were you so Pessimistic then and "Self Doubting" that you never got Laid? Of Course Not! You were young and Full of Life and you did what you needed to do! the problem with the Nay Sayers in this world is that sometimes People let them deter others from Progress. and sometimes it takes a Pessimist to Anger and Fuel The Fire of Other's To strike out and Prove you wrong! My purpose in Starting this thread was to get a Sense of Value that people would place on this type of Service. I already know about "PHS" Charges, But I think there are far more Valuable Chevrolets Lacking Documnetation That could push that Figure Higher. GM Could easily do a Cost Analysis of this process and I bet it would be a lot Cheaper than you assume. Given the Technology Benefits of Today in comparison to the past. let me ask you this, Why does FORD do It?? in actuality, an enterprising Enthusiast approached them and undertook the Job himself! His Name is Kevin Marti. Hence the term "Marti Report" when you see FORD ads. I know others have tried to get GM to do the right thing and it always gets close and then does not happen. But if evidence was shown to them that literally Thousands of People want this service provided and they were willing to pay anywhere from $25.00 Dollars to $1000.00 Dollars for this knowledge to either confirm a Valuable Car, or to guide a restoration project on Granny's 6 cylinder Nova. Price it accordingly. several scenarios could be arranged. For instant Information or within Hours Charge an extra $50.00 Dollars. SS Or Z-28, COPO Cars Charge More than you would for a Base Model car, etc. Now remember John Belushi's Famous Line in Animal House...."Who's with me??" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Mr70
05-18-2005, 12:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Now Who is Ready with some ideas on who can "lead the Troops" here??

[/ QUOTE ]

I nominate you 12bolt.

12bolt
05-18-2005, 01:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now Who is Ready with some ideas on who can "lead the Troops" here??

[/ QUOTE ]

I nominate you 12bolt.

[/ QUOTE ]I'll Gladly assist in any way I can, but it would be a Blow to the History of General Motors that a "FORD Nut" Had to do something that it's entire Legion of Followers could not! What we need is someone that is in touch with the Masses. I mean a Guy or Gal who is respected by The Camaro Clubs, Corvette Guys, Yenko Fans etc. and can Rally their Support. If That guy or Gal even exists I do not know. I am going to use an unrelated car story to prove a Point here. Carroll Shelby made 6 Daytona Coupe's for Racing. in 1968 they were all sold at the end of the Racing season for Roughly $4500.00 apiece. the 1970's rolled around and interest in Shelby Cars, Race History, etc. led to the Forming of The Shelby American Automobile Club. They started a registry for all The Shelby Cobra's, Mustangs, and GT 40's and yes the Daytona Coupe's. well they could only locate 5 Coupe's. for 26 Years People searched, chased leads. Nothing. a Few Years ago, a Guy who had just become interested in Shelby Cars, Read that there was a Missing Car. He Contacted SAAC Headquarters and inquired. Rick Kopec, (Leader of SAAC) Laughed as this guy claimed he wanted to locate this car. He said, "Go ahead, many other's have tried in Vain for years and failed." Kopec provided him with the details of the Cold case and never expected to hear Back from him again. The Guy in less than a few Days Locates the car! It became an insane Tragic story that ended up with so Much Drama it should be made into a Movie! I will post a Link to the Story later. anyway, my point I am trying to make is that all The "Experts" could not do in 26 Years, what a New Shelby Fan pulled off in a matter of Days! So Much for Pessimism! That Car by the Way, sold for $4 Million Dollars to a Philadelphia Neuro Surgeon in a Private sale. God only knows what a Drunken B-J Crowd would Pay for it today! Just because other Experts have attempted this so Far and FAILED, does not mean that you Give up! If you cannot go over the wall, Then Dig under it. When that proves Futile, Blast right through it! I am Certain that there are many "Legal Knowledge" Types assembled on this site, or belonging to GM Car clubs that could come up with a Plan. It all starts with a Plan. Then when presented to "John Q. Chevy Owner" at a Car show, He will gladly sign a petition or whatever the plan entails.

camarojoe
05-18-2005, 02:33 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I nominate you 12bolt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second the motion. Go for it.

12bolt
05-18-2005, 04:21 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I nominate you 12bolt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second the motion. Go for it.

[/ QUOTE ]Are You willing to Help? I'll spearhead the campaign. I do not have a problem with that. I just need to know that people will be serious. Like if I contact you with Knowledge, You can pass it on to the Deuce Community etc. and this is not just directed at Joe, This is for everyone reading. Together we are a Force to be reckoned with. or You can sit back and do Nothing. just get in line with the rest of the "Sheople" and be Herded wherever "They" decide you belong. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

Belair62
05-18-2005, 04:24 AM
I hate to drag this up...but Jim Mattison...who worked in the COPO department when they were making these things and is also the man responsible for PHS...has undertaken the Chevrolet Division records debacle...I think the road is not too smooth.GM is a strange machine.

camarojoe
05-18-2005, 05:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
...if I contact you with Knowledge, You can pass it on to the Deuce Community etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. I will be glad to pass on any Knowledge you contact me with and pass it on to the Deuce Community etc. and/or anyone else interested.

12bolt
05-18-2005, 07:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I hate to drag this up...but Jim Mattison...who worked in the COPO department when they were making these things and is also the man responsible for PHS...has undertaken the Chevrolet Division records debacle...I think the road is not too smooth.GM is a strange machine.

[/ QUOTE ]I have Mad respect for Jim Mattison and all he has done in the Past with the COPO program and his assistance to this very day as he took the time to assist me even! I am aware of his involvement with the PHS as well. I am Guessing Jim to be at least 60 Years old at this point in time Possibly?? Maybe older. PHS can be keeping him busy as well as the obligations that come with age to ones own Health, The Health and welfare of Family Members etc. Jim May be overwhelmed and tired of the Battle. I do not know. Maybe there are Jealous people who do not want him to have the same success with Chevrolet that he has had with Pontiac. Possibly an old Co worker who is now in a position of Power and capable of Blocking the success of his efforts. One thing is Certain. People want this! the other thing that seems certain is the lack of enthusiasm to fight the battle differently. when you smash your head against a wall and all you get is a sore head, try using a Sledge Hammer. It works better! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif anybody that can or wants to Help, Feel free to PM me with any connections you may have in the Automotive media. Or any Ideas or knowledge on the subject you may have. your name will be kept private unless you say otherwise. Me, I am heading out to the garage for a Jackhammer. I do not think a Sledge is gonna Help. If that Jackhammer does not work, we can always get some Dynamite! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Charley Lillard
05-18-2005, 08:46 AM
Jim are you reading this ? 12 bolt is calling you old....

Verne_Frantz
05-18-2005, 05:35 PM
12 Bolt,
Just wanted to say I enjoyed your post about the Cobra story very much. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif
You have the right attitude, in fact, the ONLY attitude that will produce results. I learned a long time ago that you don't find any treasures if you don't go on a treasure hunt.

Because the information does not exist (yet) for the cars of my area of interest, I've had to dedicate myself for the last 23 years to accumulate it by documenting original cars (the backwards way of doing it). But inspite of all that, nothing is as good as original docs from the General.

anyway, just wanted to let you know your attitude is a breath of fresh air. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Verne

55chevy
05-18-2005, 06:17 PM
Yeah them PA guys can get a bit rowdy.. I should know http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY
05-18-2005, 06:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah them PA guys can get a bit rowdy.. I should know http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? 'cause we threw you out to Oky http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif You need to come back, new Nova chapters are forming around here!

I think Jim has been spearheading this for several years, and has been very persistent with the powers at GM. We continue to support him and his efforts - and he's not 'old'. I think his copo could beat 12bolt's copo though http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

55chevy
05-18-2005, 06:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah them PA guys can get a bit rowdy.. I should know http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? 'cause we threw you out to Oky http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif You need to come back, new Nova chapters are forming around here!



[/ QUOTE ]

Wish I could!.. kinda stuck here for now.. I haven't talked to Bushey or my other Nova buddys for a long time now.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Pantera
05-18-2005, 07:48 PM
I started to undertake this same project but was educated by those that had tried this before me not to waste my time.

Chev and GM uper managment has no die hard car guys like years ago. They are fighting for their lives right now. You will get nowhere with them. They are only concerned about their job and how to keep it.

This same project has been tried not once but 3 different times in the last 15 years, by the NCRS (Corvette Collectors) and if someone like them, with their direct line into Chev can't make it happen then the slim chance that anyone else, and not as well conected will succede is perchance doomed before you even get started. I was informed that the then head of Chev tried to find the records and they just don't exist anymore.

We have to stop and consider that we are acustomed to a computer world and what we want is not on a computer but was recorded on punch cards and they took up too much room and were pitched years ago since nobody could forsee a future need for the details of the info that they contained.

I know this sounds hard to understand but there have been major changes in the record keeping world in the last 35 years. That is a long time to hord huge amounts of paperwork with little or no value. The old plants have been abandoned and or destroyed along with the records they contained that were pitched long ago. Chev division outsold every other division by a huge amount and we have to remember the little transactions of every car or truck sold by them would be intermixed in those paper records.

The only remaining records are totals of what sold with what options so that future directors could use that info to make better decisions by looking at the past mistakes and or successes. The detail of who bought what and with what options was not deemed necessary to retain and also someone would have had to go back through huge amounts of paper files to compile it on to a newer computer and it just was not done.

I have it on good authority that there are many that are working on this project still. All we in the hobby can hope for is that somewhere, somehow, there are the records we long for. After 1970 there may be a chance of some computer records but before that the chance is slim.

Pantera

gemleeus
05-18-2005, 08:11 PM
al may know someone with those records!

Canucklehead
05-18-2005, 08:26 PM
I remember reading somewhere where the info is just not there and was destroyed years ago. Believe it or not it just may be the truth, sure it would be easy for an exectutive to say that to stop being bothered, but that could very well be the case and all this speculation is pointless. Sad to say but we may have to face this fact.

Pantera
05-18-2005, 08:27 PM
I sure hope someone has them. I will be the first in line to buy some.

Pantera

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY
05-18-2005, 10:10 PM
I think a similar effort could/should be initiated with the NICB. They have info that appears to require no additional effort to make marketable to enthusiasts like us. I know I would really like to have an NICB report for my Novas.

Has anyone approached them about such a service?

Mr70
05-18-2005, 10:15 PM
I approached them with this very same idea in 1999.
They said they would get back to me.. http://www.cooksrecipes.com/posticons/waiting.gif

12bolt
05-19-2005, 12:16 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I approached them with this very same idea in 1999.
They said they would get back to me.. http://www.cooksrecipes.com/posticons/waiting.gif

[/ QUOTE ]this is the point I am trying to make. all other efforts have failed. a New approach is needed. Otherwise success would have occurred already. as to whether or Not Jim M. Is OLD as in TOO Old, do not take it that way. I am just suggesting that as we get older, more $hit gets put on our plate. I know Carroll Shelby is 82 and still running like a Mad man Flying here and there, designing, appearing and living life to the fullest. I bet his Cobra can Beat Jim's COPO though.....!!

DaJudge
05-19-2005, 07:15 PM
GM has some financial problems like 5.8 billion in health care costs and they have cut their earnings forcast by almost 50%. The increasing health care costs are sucking up any and all available resources. For now our requests will fall on deaf ears and be treated like a fly on a horses a@#. They are an international and multi billion dollar company that needs to conserve their resources and focus on increasing their decreasing North American market share by bringing solid and exciting products to the automotive market.

With my past experience with Pontiacs the PHS docs are great to verify a purchase but IMHO there is nothing like having original GM docs to document a car.

I have a good friend that works in management in the Chevy division and I have inquired many times and he has run it up the chain of command. It just does not seem to be a priority to GM at this time.

DaJudge
05-19-2005, 10:48 PM
Rick,

I agree that the paperwork that Chevy sends you is not special, however it does list part numbers for carbs, distributors etc. But with the exception of the Factory to dealer invoice it's basically the same package as the PHS docs.

Stuart Adams
05-20-2005, 12:52 AM
We are all dreamin, there are probably no records or they would have leaked by now, ya think! Wishful thinking, alot of crooks would be looking for work!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

ANDY M
05-20-2005, 01:24 AM
Has anyone ever checked with R.L. Polk? They are an old Detroit company that keeps every kind of statistic for the automotive industry. The big 3 relies heavyly on them.

hvychev
05-20-2005, 07:17 AM
Checked them 6 years ago. They would not help. I tried to put on my best sales pitch ever. Even kept the guy on the phone for a half hour.